Reservation for Brahmins

[Nara]

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Dr. TNJ,

I suppose you don't want to respond to my post #288. That is fine.

IMO, this discussion is on the government policy of reservation. There are three questions being raised, as I see, (i) is it justified, (ii) does it work, and (iii) how long?

Our arguments started with the first of these 3 questions. I think we presented sufficient justification for the present system of reservation. You have not responded to these arguments, instead, you want to move on to (ii) and (iii). This is fine too.

Now, on (ii), on the basis of the research study Shri KRS posted here, the exchanges that followed, and finally the input from one of the authors of the research paper, we know that the reservation system works. You did not participate in that discussion. Now you cite some personal experiences and state it does not work. Why do you think your personal experiences as you state them must be given more weight than a systematic academic study?

In any case, I think a lot can be learned even from your personal experiences, if we dare to dig a little deeper.

Why do you think you have the wherewithal to buy that 4th TV set and prevent petty corruption, but your car cleaner Andy cannot even afford a hut with electricity?

Why do you think your first son was so confident that he can make it even if he did not get into IIT, but a poor Dalit who got admission for MBBS on merit list is unable to leave his poor family?

Finally, IMO, the following is among the most offensive things said here:

Probably these similar situation was the reason for the saying " பாத்திரம் அறிந்து பிச்சை "

The Dalits and other oppressed BCs are not asking for any பிச்சை from anybody. They want some of the advantages extracted from their labor and were accumulated by FCs and passed down to their descendants that gives their present day youngsters the confidence and swagger to do what they want, the way they please, be used to help them a little bit so that they need not continue to be exploited like their ancestors were.

As long as Brahmins think of Brahmins as their community, and not all Tamils, these kinds of narrow interest thinking will persist.

Cheers!

 

[silverfox]

Dear Prof. Nara:
I am not trying to belittle your crusade on behalf of dalits; in fact, I abhor the injustice done to the dalits and am with you all the way. But don't you think you are in a way (forgive me for saying this) belittling the harassment and violence directed against the brahmins? It may not be on the same scale directed against dalits; nevertheless, violence is violence. If I take this further, what you are saying is that since violence and harassment against the brahmins were mostly sporadic, all brahmins will have to put up with it, the society, the government, the police, et al should just ignore it and go on with their lives!!
Just because it happened sporadically (your words, not mine; I have already established that systematic violence against brahmins were conducted by Evil Ramasamy Naicker and his henchmen), it doesn't undermine the horror.
I don't understand why you must equate the two? I believe they are mutually exclusive; the outcome of one wouldn't affect the other and vice versa.

<<<Nara:.... Perhaps you don't mean it the way I am seeing it, but, I just cannot accept the equivalence implied here between the real, institutionalized, systematic, documented, uninterrupted, and continuing violence directed against Dalits on the one hand, and on the other, the mostly sporadic, incidence triggered, harassment directed at some Brahmins.>>>>>

 

[Nara]

...I don't understand why you must equate the two?

Dear sf, I was commenting on HH's post in which she, perhaps unintentionally, left an impression of equating the suffering of Dalits with that of Brahmins. Please see my comments in that context.

I agree, absence of evidence for systematic and wide-spread violence against Brahmins as a group cannot diminish the seriousness of harassment an individual Brahmin suffers. The perpetrators must be apprehended and brought to justice by the police.

Hope this clarifies, Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Dalit who got admission for MBBS on merit list is unable to leave his poor family?

Dear Dr, I posted abut this boy sometime back. Here is the Hindu article on this boy dated July 20, 2010.

The Hindu : Tamil Nadu / Salem News : His dream to pursue medicine hangs in balance

Since the article appeared the boy has received some good news, The Hindu : Tamil Nadu / Salem News : Dalit student can now pursue his MBBS course, alas it is a loan.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

I have two doubts.

First I just want to know when Brahmins ruled either full or part of the country before Independence. After independence, it is a democratic set up and it is a collective rule.

I am unable to trace Brahmin kings and my query landed me with the following wiki answers website.

WikiAnswers - Who are brahmin kings

If brahmins were not ruling, how can they perpetuate crimes against other castes?

Secondly, the Baghavat Geetha talks about only four varnas. Now the daliths are not classified within the four varnas. Even the Tamilnadu CM Karunanidhi claims that he is a `sudra'.

I am familiar with name such as `Panchavarnam'. I was thinking all along that it denotes five colours. But is there any fifth `varna' classifcation in any of our ancient scriptures and if so, are the present day daliths classified under the `fifth varna'?

If anybody can give valid answers to my above query, I shall be thankful.

All the best

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

Dear

(i) is it justified, (ii) does it work, and (iii) how long?
(1) Why question me after so may years? Are you not aware that this is justified by the highest judiciary The Supreme Court already? Do they need my concurrence? If your question is are you comfortable or convinced with this ,then read on.

I had a situation where I had to appoint a stenographer for a research project regarding AIDS The research scholar was a Dalit The post as per rooster is for MBC We had only one MBC candidate who had the minimum qualification prescribed in the short list I cannot fill the post with any one else with out proper justification why this MBC candidate has been rejected. So I told the research scholar that we have to appoint him But he said let us see if he can perform and asked to type some thing and started reading from his research paper. He could not take the dictation with so many technical terms finally with repeated prompting he was asked to get it typed. The copy was full of typographic mistakes as well. The scholar was convinced that this candidate is not suited. Now he suggested a candidate who was a TB! I told him I cannot do that on my own Unless he specifically gives me a written statement why he does not want the MBC and preferred A TB with full justification அப்படினா வேண்டாம் . It will create political & caste problems! In the end The MBC was appointed The scholar preferred to have all materials typed by TB in the evenings as Job work! I have done this appointment exactly by rules already justified. Legally nothing wrong or may be perfect. Morally? No I am not comfortable with is justified action of mine. I have acted with full ராஜபக்தி for இந்திய சாம்ராஜ்யம் . Is this acceptable to சாம்ராஜ்யம் of ராமபக்தி. No I am not at all comfortable.

(2)does it work? . Yes it does and it will. Even work for longer periods than Manu! Does it work correct? Please let me know what is the purpose of this reservation? The idea is to make a caste less society? Or the purpose is simply to replace Manu with Mandal. If it is for later it will definitely work. This I know and I need no reaseach papper to enlighten this. Please let me know if you have any research paper showing why it will not work to make a caste less society except replacing Manu with Manda? You know DrRamadoss benefited His son benefited . He wants caste based census And even suggesting"Social Justice Alliance" could be formed before Polls.See there is nothing else on which elections are fought except caste?

(3) For how long? This is exactly the question I have been asking. You may have to answer that. Jambu

 

[happyhindu]

Dear HH, Perhaps you don't mean it the way I am seeing it, but, I just cannot accept the equivalence implied here between the real, institutionalized, systematic, documented, uninterrupted, and continuing violence directed against Dalits on the one hand, and on the other, the mostly sporadic, incidence triggered, harassment directed at some Brahmins.

You are aware that even today Dalits are made to take off their foot ware when entering a village, not allowed to ride on a cycle, not allowed to take water from common well, and so many acts of violence against human spirit. These are not just isolated or sporadic incidences, these are daily occurrences. These acts may not constitute physical violence, but they have a much worse effect, they poison the minds of kids of all castes and are daily facts of life.

And then there is actual physical violence, people getting hacked to death because they had the temerity to question the establishment.

Drawing any sort of equivalence between what is happening to Dalits and what is being claimed as happening to Brahmins is nothing more than plain wishful thinking.

Cheers!

Dear Sri Nara,

Am as taken aback and appalled as anyone else there even today there are such things as removing footware, being disallowed to draw water up from common wells, forcing kids into cleaning toilets and so on....

What can be done to sir, to set right those NBs who use fear factor to enforce such things today? Suppose, lets say, they are not influenced by the caste system, varna ideas or anything, but just wanna keep treating the 'dalits' low (mindset problem)....then how are they to be handled? I feel, the current judicial system is too weak and therein lies the prob...

 

[happyhindu]

Shri RVR,

After completing Ramayanam, i think we are coming back to asking who was Ram.

1) Brahmins do not need to be kings / rulers to perpetuate crimes against low-castes. Anyways, some suspect that priests were kings during the IVC.

2) Brahmins created laws or dharmashastras that perpetuated crimes against "low-castes".

3) No matter how the past was, anyways no one cares. In the present, brahmins (priests) are the only ones who hold on to discriminations, and propagate them openly against "low-castes" based on the shastras. Being called "low" in birth can break the spirit of anyone. To me, its a crime against humaneness of humanity.

4) Dalits are not considered fifth varna. There are only 4 varnas. dalits are considered antyajanaas or those who do not belong to any varna (avarnas).

I request Shri Sangom and Shri Nara to enlighten you more on this.

Regards.

I have two doubts.

First I just want to know when Brahmins ruled either full or part of the country before Independence. After independence, it is a democratic set up and it is a collective rule.

I am unable to trace Brahmin kings and my query landed me with the following wiki answers website.

WikiAnswers - Who are brahmin kings

If brahmins were not ruling, how can they perpetuate crimes against other castes?

Secondly, the Baghavat Geetha talks about only four varnas. Now the daliths are not classified within the four varnas. Even the Tamilnadu CM Karunanidhi claims that he is a `sudra'.

I am familiar with name such as `Panchavarnam'. I was thinking all along that it denotes five colours. But is there any fifth `varna' classifcation in any of our ancient scriptures and if so, are the present day daliths classified under the `fifth varna'?

If anybody can give valid answers to my above query, I shall be thankful.

All the best

 

[sangom]

I have two doubts.

First I just want to know when Brahmins ruled either full or part of the country before Independence. After independence, it is a democratic set up and it is a collective rule.

I am unable to trace Brahmin kings and my query landed me with the following wiki answers website.

WikiAnswers - Who are brahmin kings

If brahmins were not ruling, how can they perpetuate crimes against other castes?

Dear RVR,

Pushyamitra Sunga was a Samavedi brahmin and he established the Sunga dynasty after assassinating Brihadratha, the last Mauryan king. Pushyamitra was mainly responsible for Buddhism being eradicated from India. Pl see, for a map of the Sunga empire:

File:SungaEmpireMap.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

The Kaanvaas also were brahmins.

 

[sangom]

I have two doubts.
...
Secondly, the Baghavat Geetha talks about only four varnas. Now the daliths are not classified within the four varnas. Even the Tamilnadu CM Karunanidhi claims that he is a `sudra'.

I am familiar with name such as `Panchavarnam'. I was thinking all along that it denotes five colours. But is there any fifth `varna' classifcation in any of our ancient scriptures and if so, are the present day daliths classified under the `fifth varna'?

If anybody can give valid answers to my above query, I shall be thankful.

All the best

Dear RVR,

I give below the url for the relevant page from Gandhiji's Hind Swaraj. You will find both Gandhiji and Vivekananda recognising the Panchamas as a class below even BG's Sudra.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Freedom's_Battle/Treatment_of_the_Depressed_Classes

 

[RVR]

Dear RVR,

I give below the url for the relevant page from Gandhiji's Hind Swaraj. You will find both Gandhiji and Vivekananda recognising the Panchamas as a class below even BG's Sudra.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Freedom's_Battle/Treatment_of_the_Depressed_Classes

Dear Sri Sangom Sir,

The above link is not opening. Please give the correct link.

All the best

 

[Raghy]

I am going to loose a friend in USA!

Folks,

When I argued in favor of caste-based reservation system many did not waste a moment to come after me with pitchforks and torches. There was Bharathiarisque outrage,

தனி ஓர் ப்ராமணனுக்கு சீட்டு இல்லை எனில்
இந்த சாதி சலுகைமுறையை அழித்திடுவோம்.

It is said, arguments that centuries-old caste based repression cannot be redressed in a caste-blind fashion is nothing more than human excreta, no different from the the most vile arguments of the most despicable castiest.

But, now I suggest a possible scheme that could possibly better focus which social group is deserving of affirmative action and not a peep from anybody for 24 hours.

I once again invite my opponents on this issue to show me the courtesy I fancy I deserve, namely, your comment on my suggestion.

Cheers!

Sri.Nara, Greetings. I was one of the persons who expressed my views which were different to your views. (I was not an opponent, since you refused to discuss with me because you were offended by my comment about your message).

Caste based reservation exists in all the steps of one's career in India. It starts at undergraduate education; selection of branches in that education; higher education; government employment; career advancements (promotions) in the employment etc. Few communities are adversely affected by this caste based reservation system. Caste based reservation system is devised and implemented by the Government of India. Poor and under previleged students in villages and small towns are the most affected by this system. So many youngsters got wasted by this system. Such youngsters never knew their fault to be punished so cruelly; afterall, they or their immediate elders did not do anything wrong to the society. If the reservation system was implemented income based, instead of caste based, most of these poor students would have benefitted. I have seen younsters openly crying over the shattered dreams. It is quite normal for a citizen of India to oppose such an unfair system; it is quite normal for an அடி வயிறு எரிந்த Indian to oppose such a system; it is normal for the persons who lost their younsters in suicide due to the shattered dreams. In short, this is a very sensitive issue affecting millions of students who do not have money or influence. Sri.Nara, it is less than decent to ridicule such an issue by saying
"தனி ஓர் ப்ராமணனுக்கு சீட்டு இல்லை எனில்
இந்த சாதி சலுகைமுறையை அழித்திடுவோம்."
You are making fun of some poor student who does not have any influence. Well written phrase, Sri.Nara!

Caste Brahmins are citizens of India. The citizens of India are asking something from the Government of India, when the caste brahmins ask for reservations for their community. It is a democratic process. These caste brahmins are not suggesting the Government of India to reduce or stop previleges to any other community; all they are asking is 'give me too!'. What is wrong with that? If the Government of India gives it to her citizens, what is the problem? How can that be opposed? Personally, I think it is ridiculous to oppose a democrartic process taking place in India.

It is interesting to note that Sri.Nara feels that the Caste based reservation system is 'unfair'; but, a caste brahmin student can pull himself on a 'shoe string'. On the other hand, Sri.Nara is seen opposing any such restrictions against any other community. I see this as a caste based discrimination. (When I see anybody, caste brahmin or harijan has to pull himself on a shoe-string, I will endevour to provide all the help I can provide, so that he/she can comfortably get along).

One member spoke about the movie 'India-Untouched'.....none of the caste brahmins were involved in the discrimination. I would choose the Tamil Nadu episodes...This is what Sri.Nara wrote..

Yes, you are right, no Brahmin is directly involved in these atrocities, they don't have any of the kind of blood in their hands that can be washed away with a little soap and water – that kind of blood is on the hands of the monster they designed and let loose.

What monster? Sri.Nara, why can't you see the reality? Hello! The caste brahmins are not practising brahminism! The poor caste brahmins are innocent; they did not do a thing! 'wearing a poonool, keeping a tuft, murmuring 'sandhaya vandhanam'; conducting tharpanam; the ladies wearing 'madisar'; some of the gents wearing 'pancha kacham' are not brahminism! Caste based reservation is a monster. you can't see the elephant in the lounge!

I wrote about 'India untouched'. I wrote the truth. Not a peep from anybody in defense of that circus. The Pundit's comments were edited. It was shown as if that pundit was justifying various discriminatory actions. But the truth was not that. Stalin screwed it up. He could have asked the pundit to comment; instead, he edited the pundit's interview! People like me will not value such edited comments. It only shows the biased intent from the producer. The whole movie was one-sided; none of the persons who treat lower castes as human beings were shown at all.

It is interesting to see Sri.Nara treating the atrocities against caste brahmins by DK பகுத்தறிவுவாதிகள் as baseless allegations and if it is true, as 'isolated incidents'! So, any atrocities commited against any caste brahmins are not to be taken seriously; but any unjustice commited against a non-brahmin must be considred as a seerious and important event. I see this as blatant caste based hatred.

I am a humanist. I see a person first; I may or may not see that persons religion/caste. I understand Sri.Nara sees a person's caste first (if he he/she is a Hindu). If that person happens to be a caste brahmin, he/she would get the short end of the stick. (Because, his/her ancestors discriminated lower caste people). (I grew up in a caste brahmin home too; I have some loyalty to caste brahmins; after all, a caste brahmin fostered me).

From Sri.Nara's messages, I can observe his hatred and discrimination towards caste brahmins. I oppose his views.

When I argued in favor of caste-based reservation system many did not waste a moment to come after me with pitchforks and torches

Sri.Nara, this is a personal attack. You are saying everyone who opposed your views were driven by frenzy and ganged up on you. I did not think you would get this low.

Cheers!

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

"It is said, arguments that centuries-old caste based repression cannot be redressed in a caste-blind fashion is nothing more than human excreta, no different from the the most vile arguments of the most despicable castiest".

These types of writings were called "Intellectual Vomit" and since people felt uncomfortable was edited But they will not accept which comes out from the upper end but willing to use what is coming out of lower end! Jambu:spit:

 

[Nara]

...(1) Why question me after so may years?

Dear TNJ, this is a discussion forum. So, when you make a comment people tend to think you have an interest in discussing the issue. That is the reason I asked you the questions. If it is your wish to make comments but not to be questioned about it, then tell me so, and I won't.

...In the end The MBC was appointed The scholar preferred to have all materials typed by TB in the evenings as Job work! I have done this appointment exactly by rules already justified. Legally nothing wrong or may be perfect. Morally? No I am not comfortable with is justified action of mine. I have acted with full ராஜபக்தி for இந்திய சாம்ராஜ்யம் . Is this acceptable to சாம்ராஜ்யம் of ராமபக்தி. No I am not at all comfortable.

Thank you for answering Dr. TNJ. As I have said often, I can't comment on personal experiences. Your comment about moral concerns and சாம்ராஜ்யம் of ராமபக்தி also falls under personal preferences.

TNJ, the human excreta comment did not originate from me, I was only responding. I am willing to discuss controversial issues if it is done in an honest and above board manner. But, all this uninformed and careless remarks are getting truly tiresome. Why is that nobody from the other side is able to present a decent cogent argument that speaks to the issues? All we get are personal anecdotes!! Well, there was one person who did, Shri KRS.

Shri Raghy, there are studies that show a purely economic status based reservation will be unfair to the long oppressed. You may disagree with that, and I understand that. But in this matter, personal impressions have less weight compared to systematic research.

I like to keep any discussion above personal level and try extra hard at that. But, to my eternal regret, I do slip up and allow myself to be dragged down sometimes.

I have already given detailed reasons in various posts in this thread why I disagree with you on the reservation issue and the questions you have raised in your most recent post. I will leave the matter at that.

Cheers!

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

"It is interesting to see Sri.Nara treating the atrocities against caste brahmins by DK பகுத்தறிவுவாதிகள் as baseless allegations and if it is true, as 'isolated incidents'! So, any atrocities commited against any caste brahmins are not to be taken seriously; but any unjustice commited against a non-brahmin must be considred as a seerious and important event. I see this as blatant caste based hatred."

You should add one more explanation to what you have mentioned.It is your personal experience. I cannot comment on that. But I will quote personal experiences all except of TB if it suits me.

What about (3) How long? This was the question I was raising and finally it was tossed to my court. Why?:laugh:

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

TNJ, the human excreta comment did not originate from me, I was only responding.

Dear

Because it is not yours can you justify this? Jambu:spit:

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

"Dear TNJ, this is a discussion forum. So, when you make a comment people tend to think you have an interest in discussing the issue"
This issue was discussed and finally & firmly justified in Supreme Court This decision is final . No more discussions possible. Discussion possible before final decisions. Now only thing expected is to act as per the SC Justified act. That I have done. That is why I am uncomfortable as I have mentioned Justified in my act yet uncomfortable. You feel it is personal and can not comment upon that. Do not try to put the cart before the horse! Jambu:deadhorse:

 

[RVR]

Are we losing focus?

The topic of this thread is mainly to discuss whether our community requires reservation or not.

Approximately 55% of our members as on date have voted in favour of demanding reservation to our community members.

At the same time around 45% of the people have voted that we should not demand reservation for our community.

So the difference of opinion in the main topic is meager.

It only shows that our community is highly matured even before demanding something from the Government which we are not sure of getting.

I wish the participants in this topic also focused on the main issue instead of diverting to some other issue. This rule apply to me also and I have deviated from the topic many times.

But this particular topic is so sensitive that it can flare up without control.

I request everybody to adhere to the topic and discuss the merits & demerits of demanding a reservation for our community and avoid discussing about other communities.

We are not against any other community and we all want all the communities to prosper and the nation as a whole to prosper.

All the best

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

Yes I agree My participation in this thread is only to show that you should not have a inherited guilt complex as some people may feel or have tried to project it and trying to thrust it on you . Bye Jambu:nono:

 

[sangom]

Dear Sri Sangom Sir,

The above link is not opening. Please give the correct link.

All the best

Dear RVR,

I am also not able to get it today from the link but I give below the relevant extract from the text file I made of that page:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Freedom%27s_Battle/Treatment_of_the_Depressed_Classes
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←Hind Swaraj Freedom's Battle by Mohandas K. Gandhi
Treatment of the Depressed Classes Treatment of Indians Abroad→


[edit] Depressed Classes

Vivekanand used to call the Panchamas 'suppressed classes.' There is no doubt that Vivekanand's is a more accurate adjective. We have suppressed them and have consequently become ourselves depressed. That we have become the 'Pariahs of the Empire' is, in Gokhale's language, the retributive justice meted out to us by a just God. A correspondent indignantly asks me in a pathetic letter reproduced elsewhere, what I am doing for them. I have given the letter with the correspondent's own heading. Should not we the Hindus wash our bloodstained hands before we ask the English to wash theirs? This is a proper question reasonably put. And if a member of a slave nation could deliver the suppressed classes from their slavery without freeing myself from my own, I would do so to day. But it is an impossible task. A slave has not the freedom even to do the right thing.

It will be noted that Gandhiji himself refers to "our bloodstained hands" vindicating the stand taken by Shri Nara.

 

[RVR]

Sri Sangom Sir,

I don't want to use this thread further and I have already opened a thread `Caste Based Discriminations'. Let us discuss this topic there.

All the best

 

[Nara]

.... And if a member of a slave nation could deliver the suppressed classes from their slavery without freeing myself from my own, I would do so to day. But it is an impossible task. A slave has not the freedom even to do the right thing.

Dear Shri sangom, Gandhi was made into a Mahatma so that we can go about our lives in the same old ways without bothering about the simple and honest life, and some crazy economic and social ideas he advocated.

Gandhi wants us to believe that as a slave himself, he cannot set another slave free. Here he is attempting to bury a big பூஷிணிக்காய் in a small plate of rice. Gandhi adroitly changed the analogy from washing blood stained hands to one of slave freeing another slave.

If we can stick to the analogy of Gandhi's correspondent, then the answer is inescapable, there is no valid reason for us to wait for the British to wash their hands before we can do it ourselves.

But, even the slave analogy does not work for Gandhi. Even though the Hindu society was subjugated by the British, they were not dictating to the Hindus that they must in turn perpetuate their subjugation of the Dalits. The British were not preventing Gandhi or anyone else from working for social freedom. But, Gandhi chose to focus on political freedom from Britain. He made a calculation that social reform must wait.

Baba Saheb BRA argued with Gandhi, to no avail, that political freedom will mean nothing to the millions of Dalits without social reform. Baba Saheb was proved right. After more than 60 years, caste is much more entrenched now than it ever was. If Gandhi had joined hands with Baba Saheb, we probably have a different society now.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri sangom, Gandhi was made into a Mahatma so that we can go about our lives in the same old ways without bothering about the simple and honest life, and some crazy economic and social ideas he advocated.

Gandhi wants us to believe that as a slave himself, he cannot set another slave free. Here he is attempting to bury a big பூஷிணிக்காய் in a small plate of rice. Gandhi adroitly changed the analogy from washing blood stained hands to one of slave freeing another slave.

Dear Nara,

I also felt why a slave could not free his slave and whether the British had prevented it. But my limited purpose (at least I thought so) at that time was to furnish Shri RVR with an acceptable reference for the word "panchama" to denote the lowest rungs of the Sudras, and nothing more. But since I find that Shri RVR has his own peculiar style of discussion (not specifying something concrete, when confronted with a satisfactory reply, shifting the emphasis to something different, etc.,) I think I should stop further participation in this thread. Hope you will understand me.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Nara said:-

Shri Raghy, there are studies that show a purely economic status based reservation will be unfair to the long oppressed. You may disagree with that, and I understand that. But in this matter, personal impressions have less weight compared to systematic [COLOR=#DA7911 ! important][COLOR=#DA7911 ! important]research[/COLOR][/COLOR]
.

Greetings Sri.Nara. I have read and critiqued few research reports (for university purposes). Not all the research reports are un-biased. Some of the factors scrutinised when verifying a research report are the sponsor of the report, qualifications of the person who conducted the report, size and distribution of samples, length of study and environment in which study was conducted etc. I am not trying to teach a fish how to swim though. Most research studies are initiated either by strong personal impressions. sometimes to promote an idea which would be totally useless; I have read quite a few 'research articles' under this category too.

This is a discussion forum. Members tend to discuss and share their personal experiences in a forum like this. This forum is not discussing any issue to bring any decisions. How ever, few positive actions have resulted due to the discussions though. Members need not lie in these discussions; I don't expect them either. So, we would mostly get personal anectodes in a forum like this.

I have already given detailed reasons in various posts in this thread why I disagree with you on the reservation issue and the questions you have raised in your most recent post.

Sri,Nara, in the various posts you have contributed in this thread, I gathered your views as to why caste brahmins deserve to undergo unfair reservation system due to centuries of oppression perpetrated against harijans; your views about why Ramasamy Naicker is revered by the Dalits; your views about why caste brahmins are trying to make a hill out of a mole with respect to atrocities commited by the 'rational thinking' DK & Ramasamy Naicker followers; yes, also I saw Sri.Sliverfox peeling away a condemnation from you in respect to the atrocities. I am sorry to say that points I raised were not addressed in your posts. Matter of fact, that was why I raised those points.

What is caste based reservation? Imagine a young caste brahmin couple celeberate the occassion of the birth of their child....that child, on day one of it's life is destined to undergo caste based discrimination due to its birth. There is no use trying to tell me what a harijan child would have felt...I know it very well. I grew up with them. I have shared food with harijans in கூட்டாஞ்சோறு. two wrong things can never bring a right solution. But, this is the grivence put forward to the Government. Any Government discriminating her children should be ashmed. Citizens of that Government have all the rights to bring that issue forward. Am I repeating myself? I know, I do; I will until the GOI treats her citizens equitably. Messages getting repeated is not new in this forum. I am sure Sri.Nara will agree to that.

Sri.Nara, I am curious to know about this from you....you said

It is said, arguments that centuries-old caste based repression cannot be redressed in a caste-blind fashion is nothing more than human excreta, no different from the the most vile arguments of the most despicable castiest.

In this thread it was the message you posted after posting an earlier message. But you said to Sri.Jambunathar,

TNJ, the human excreta comment did not originate from me, I was only responding.

If you don't mind, can you kindly say who you were responding to, please? thank you.

The country will not prosper when it follows barbaric cast-based hatred policies preached by the likes of Ramasamy Naicker. Ramasamy Naicker folowers and the DK policy is 'eradication of caste brahmins in Tamil Nadu'; I am not saying this; K.Veeramani stated this in a interview published in Tuglak in the early 80s. Veeramani had no policy as to what to do after the eradication of caste brahmins...possibly they have to choose the next caste to hate. Anything developed in hatred can only hate. DK was developed for the express interest of spreading hatred against caste brahmins. Ramasamy Naicker followers do not have remorse about the atrocities perpetrated against caste brahmins; Ramasamy Naicker covertly encouraged that in his meetings.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

.. I think I should stop further participation in this thread. Hope you will understand me.

Dear Shri sangom, I agree with the above sentiment. It is difficult to continue reasonable discussion if the approach is something like the answer some overly self-confident people may give to the question "What is the difference between ignorance and apathy?", which is "I don't know, and I don't care."

Shri Sangom, IMO, there is lot to learn even from the personal anecdotes such as the ones Jambu cited. For instance,

• Why are TVs being sold from a ration shop? From this if we are to deduce that similar defective allotment of scarce educational opportunities are happening, then the system must be reformed to better channel the opportunities. Mandal Commission Report lays out 12 criteria for this -- please see post 238 for the list. Those criteria can form the basis for this effort. One critical ingredient needed for this effort is accurate data about the population, which can be developed only from a caste-based census. Visceral opposition to gathering data about a social construct that permeates the society so completely, based on fears of loss of privilege or whatever, should not be allowed to prevail.
• The fact there are Dalit research scholars shows it is reasonable to hypothesize that the reservation system is working. Other formal and systematic research confirms this hypothesis.
• The fact that Jambu's sons could achieve educational goals commensurate with their ability and RVR could scramble when he heard from his son that Loyola College was ready to admit him and made sure the admission was secured (he described this episode a long time ago), and yet, a deserving Dalit who was admitted to MBBS this year on merit was on the verge of not being able to take advantage of this opportunity, shows the job is far from done. Only a systematic longitudinal study that compares saturation level of successful educational transition to the level of one's competence among the different affected groups, and the others, can tell us how long such preferential channeling of scarce educational resource must continue.

I hope someday at least some of us can muster up a little empathy and back away from the tree of our own personal circumstances and take a look at the entire forest.

Thanks Sri sangam, perhaps we need to be on opposite sides to have an interesting and cogent debate without falling into inanities and personal insults.

best wishes ...