Reservation for Brahmins

[nachi naga]

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hello happy hindu,

on a friendly note,i wish to answere,some of the questions being addresed to nara and sangom.

1) Brahmins do not need to be kings / rulers to perpetuate crimes against low-castes. Anyways, some suspect that priests were kings during the IVC.

This is so brilliant deduction.The PM of India is a sikh.But there exists castes in India,even now,why?How come,Mrs.Indira Gandhi our late PM,during her long reign,did not stop casteism?How Come Morarji Desai,did not stop caste?How come Gujral not stop caste?how come v.p.singh not stop caste?how come Shri vajpayee not stop caste?how come mrs.sonia gandhi wife of our late PM Rajiv Gandhi not stop caste?maybe,they will also suspect,brahmin priests behind the caste flourishing in India?

2) Brahmins created laws or dharmashastras that perpetuated crimes against "low-castes".

en masse if dalits enter temples,who can control the stampede?i suggest dalits do that.laws of yesteryears belong to yesteryears.but the beauty is,present laws of present rulers are flouted too,i am sure brahmins are behind it too now,especially tamil brahmins.

3) No matter how the past was, anyways no one cares. In the present, brahmins (priests) are the only ones who hold on to discriminations, and propagate them openly against "low-castes" based on the shastras. Being called "low" in birth can break the spirit of anyone. To me, its a crime against humaneness of humanity.

temple administration people choose priests for jobs,hold them responsible,for choosing brahmins as priests.now,then the govt becomes culpable of such actions.book the goverment,if you can?

4) Dalits are not considered fifth varna. There are only 4 varnas. dalits are considered antyajanaas or those who do not belong to any varna (avarnas).

I request Shri Sangom and Shri Nara to enlighten you more on this.

dalits are shudras - period.bhagavath gita says so.if you have problems with bg,then pray to lord krishna,to give you guidance.thanks.

 

[RKB]

Jew and Brahmin

To be precise the TBs are same as Jews in Germany during Great War days! It is an ordeal before TBs now to prove that they can regain things as Jews of Israel today

I see lot of similarities between Brahmins and Jews They are pushed But never can be crushed can never perishray2:

 

[RKB]

Merit!

Today the students of IIT do not prefer taking a job abroad. But SRM and SASTRA easily facilitates migration. Where is the merit here? These happen in academic world only.

Also how does Hexaware or Pentafour decide sending people abroad on an assignment. Sometimes it is done as a sort of punishment also!

Sorry, I have to disagree with you. I have been in a academic setting abroad for a long time. People get in based on merit alone. I am not aware of any corporate based on reservation (if that is what you are saying).

Agree, I ran away from the issue. But it is not something that I have absolute control over. Can I (alone) change the corrupt politicians? Nope. I ran to better place where they respected and supported my merit and as well nourished. And by doing so, I made sure, my kids - get their due credit when they are ready.

 

[Harini]

Impasse Passed-on

• This thread supports Reservation and demands Reservation for Brahmins.
• This thread says that both Dalits and Brahmins are treated equally by Avathars! Now Reservation favoring Daliths and Avathars should therefore be corrected.
• This thread says Brahmins helped Ambethkar but he suffered as Dalith in the then Indian society. Even Abdul Kalam has admitted benevolence of TB community.
• This thread admits that Avathars are generally not Brahmins, except a couple of it may be.

Now tell as to where the impasse is? Who pretends?

Which history tells that Brahmins in Tamilnadu lived Royal or lavish life sucking the blood of other communities. It is a fact today that what was considered as education in those days are useless things today and therefore Brahmins never are really educated in the entire history. If that being the case how can one say that they denied education to others? The only truth can be that we could have seen progress because of the education offered to us by the English rulers which the rest of the communities were little hesitant to take initially. Why the Brahmins should suffer today for everything bad in the history when they are in no way responsible for it?

You might have suffered untouchability in your house from elders practicing 'Acharam'. This is not the same as untouchability suffered by Daliths in our society. Please understand.Don't extend it to centuries of Casteism by your own imagination.

Jambunathan Sir, I believe we have reached what the English call an "impasse". It does not seem as though my words have any effect on yours. In essence, we are repeating the same thing over and over without a point. I find this tiring.

If you wish to pretend that by removing reservations, we would have a fair and just society, that is your prerogative, but it is fiction. The truth is that centuries of casteism has ensured that merit will not make society equal. In fact, millions of young boys and girls, thanks to centuries of social casteism, are born into circumstances that will prevent them from upward mobility regardless of whatever merit they may possess. This is a fact. Those of us who grow up in relatively comfortable households in urban environments may not realize what life is like for many of the less fortunate.

RVR can comfortable say "let's wait on the sidelines and see what happens" because such an attitude is a luxury he has. We have the luxury of discussing the "best students", while millions of people are never given the chance to even consider being one of them. Yes, we can afford to sit by, discuss foreign universities, discuss world rankings, discuss merit, and such similar topics. Sometimes we can even fool ourselves into believing that we are representing what is just, what is fair. If only the world were such a simple place. If only history could be discarded as if it were a storybook.

There is no reason to think that reservation is the best action. In an ideal world, I also dislike the idea. Yet the opposition to reservation here is largely opportunistic and born of the same nepotism that the proponents are accused of having. It elicits no sympathy from me.

I will not address your comments on Manu and Mandal, because I find the comparison insulting and derogatory. That such a comparison is made shows, I think, the bubble in which so many of the TB community lives within.



Oh, caste inequality can be cured. Not within 50 years, probably not within 100, but with slow steps it can.

What cannot be done is magically pretending caste doesn't exist only when it benefits us, and then reverting back to casteist ways when no one is looking. This is the attitude of many in the TB community. No, it is very possible to cure this problem if everyone is willing to embrace one another without discrimination. But how many of us are willing to do such a thing? The answer is, not many. The opposition to reservation is primarily opportunistic, not borne of any great desire for equality.

 

[happyhindu]

• This thread supports Reservation and demands Reservation for Brahmins.
• This thread says that both Dalits and Brahmins are treated equally by Avathars! Now Reservation favoring Daliths and Avathars should therefore be corrected.
• This thread says Brahmins helped Ambethkar but he suffered as Dalith in the then Indian society. Even Abdul Kalam has admitted benevolence of TB community.
• This thread admits that Avathars are generally not Brahmins, except a couple of it may be.

Now tell as to where the impasse is? Who pretends?

1) Which history tells that Brahmins in Tamilnadu lived Royal or lavish life sucking the blood of other communities.

2) It is a fact today that what was considered as education in those days are useless things today and therefore Brahmins never are really educated in the entire history.

3) If that being the case how can one say that they denied education to others? The only truth can be that we could have seen progress because of the education offered to us by the English rulers which the rest of the communities were little hesitant to take initially. Why the Brahmins should suffer today for everything bad in the history when they are in no way responsible for it?

You might have suffered untouchability in your house from elders practicing 'Acharam'. This is not the same as untouchability suffered by Daliths in our society. Please understand.Don't extend it to centuries of Casteism by your own imagination.

I have numbered your questions for better legibility for my answers.

1) Please read vijayanagr history. Most brahmins were appointed to high offices, or wealthy traders, or were military commanders, or were given endowments / grants by rulers to gain their support, or were durga-dandanayakas, and so on...brahmins were certainly well off atleast 500 years back.

2) Its outright silly to claim brahmins were historically never educated, just bcoz the education scenario changed during the british raj.

3) Please read the dharmashastras. And if in doubt about who wrote them, please consult mutt gurus for clarification.

PS: Nobody (including brahmins) is denying anyone their rights today. It is only a miniscule number of mutt heads (like a celebrity guru who urged everyone to go back to their traditional occupations) and some certain priests (like the kashi priest of the india untouched movie) who insist that shudras should not be given the right to study. They are anomalies alright. But why don't we see many brahmins saying anything against their pov?

As regards NBs who practice discrimination, they do have a class problem. In anycase, the 'dalits' have a double-whammy to deal with (brahmins on one hand who keep defining their occupation by birth; and self-styled NB 'forward castes' who want to be considered supreme by keeping the 'dalits' suppressed). Both types need to be dealt with firmly. But how? What are the solutions to handle such folks?

 

[Harini]

This discussion

This discussion is about influencing the Government policy and making it favourable to deserving all, including the Brahmins

IMO, this discussion is on the government policy of reservation. There are three questions being raised, as I see, (i) is it justified, (ii) does it work, and (iii) how long?

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Nara, Greetings.

Why are TVs being sold from a ration shop? From this if we are to deduce that similar defective allotment of scarce educational opportunities are happening.......

I don't think, TVs are sold in ration-shop; I shall stand corrected if shown wrong. Sri.Jambunathar wrote about about 'one off give away' Kalainjar TV. Every address in the ration card gets one, Free! by studying this, I don't think we may deduce similar defective allotment etc.

The fact there are Dalit research scholars shows it is reasonable to hypothesize that the reservation system is working.

Hypothesis is just an hypothesis; not a proven fact. As I said earlier, not all the research studies are balanced; on the contrary, most research studies are biased. most studies are sponsored by vested interests.

The fact that Jambu's sons could achieve educational goals commensurate with their ability and RVR could scramble when he heard from his son that Loyola College was ready to admit him and made sure the admission was secured (he described this episode a long time ago), and yet, a deserving Dalit who was admitted to MBBS this year on merit was on the verge of not being able to take advantage of this opportunity, shows the job is far from done. Only a systematic longitudinal study that compares saturation level of successful educational transition to the level of one's competence among the different affected groups....

(I request Sri.Jambunathar and Sri.RVR to pardon me, please). There is no 'and yet' in this statement. Sri.Jambunathar's son did not even give a hoot about reservation system; Sri.RVR's son did not get anywhere with his choice of studies with the Government allocations; he got selected in Loyola College. Such events have no bearing with any Dalit getting or not getting an opportunity. They are not connected at all. Secondly, that 'deserving Dalit' got his selection and obtained his place, but, could not go due to economic reasons. That has nothing to do with 'caste based reservation system'.

By the way, Sri.Nara, you have shown your sympathy towards this Dalit student more than once. And yet, I have not seen you strating a fund collection to help such poor students in this forum. When members in this forum are readily willing to help some 'fishing community children', why not poor dalit students? You never made an attempt. All I can understand from your messages in this matter is your willingness to politicise an event to uphold vested interests.

This is part of Sri.Nara's reply to Sri.Sangom when he opted to stop writing in this thread..

Thanks Sri sangam, perhaps we need to be on opposite sides to have an interesting and cogent debate without falling into inanities and personal insults.

This is brahmanism. TB community members may be caste brahmins; but most of you may not even know what is 'brahmanism'. The above quoted sentence is brahmanism. Sri.Nara suggests that the rest of the members in this forum use inanities and personal insults in their discussions/debates! This is one tactic to baffel the opponent. I have seen people switching their conversation in English to confuse and baffle illeterate or barely educated villagers; use of Sanskrit phrases; declaring 'you won't understand this' about a concept etc are samples of brahmanism. They are used mainly to put down the opponent.

When I joined this forum, I did not see a rule that restricted me from making simple statements; I did not see any entry qualifications in the vicinity of Phd or above. Personally, I would discuss with anyone anyone who does not write insulting messages, overtly or covertly.

I hope someday at least some of us can muster up a little empathy and back away from the tree of our own personal circumstances and take a look at the entire forest.

I developed empathy for all human beings. I did not look at anyone's caste. I completely agree with Sri.Nara's above quoted message. I hope one day Sri.Nara will have empathy for a caste brahmin and Dalit alike. I know it is very hard to develop such empathy. Personally, I was very fortunate to live amoung all communities. But it can't be acheived when there is an hatred for a particular community.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

I don't think, TVs are sold in ration-shop; I shall stand corrected if shown wrong. Sri.Jambunathar wrote about about 'one off give away' Kalainjar TV. Every address in the ration card gets one, Free! by studying this, I don't think we may deduce similar defective allotment etc.

Politicians are only taking advantage of the caste-system. Most politicians will be out of job if the caste system is wiped out.

As long as mutts and priests keep invoking caste-by-birth chants (with the claim that shudras have no right to study or enter temples); anger amongst 'dalits' will exist.

As long as anger amongst 'dalits' exist, politicans will remain in business.

And ofcourse, i suspect that along with free TVs, they will also give free subscription to Kalignar TV to increase TRP ratings for the shows on their channel. So it business all the way.

To get rid of this political-caste-system, i think the public needs to take things in their hands.

To begin with, i have asked Shri RVR to legally change his jaathi (occupation) to that of a Lohar / Blacksmith. By his own admission, Shri RVR is now a proud shudra. Let Shri RVR make the required attempts for caste-change, and then let us see what his experiances with various government officials are.

 

[Nara]

To be precise the TBs are same as Jews in Germany during Great War days! It is an ordeal before TBs now to prove that they can regain things as Jews of Israel today

Dear Shri RKB, The Nazis of Germany murdered 6 million Jews because they were Jews. How many Brahmins were put to death because they were Brahmins?

Thank you...

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

As regards NBs who practice discrimination, they do have a class problem. In anycase, the 'dalits' have a double-whammy to deal with (brahmins on one hand who keep defining their occupation by birth; and self-styled NB 'forward castes' who want to be considered supreme by keeping the 'dalits' suppressed). Both types need to be dealt with firmly. But how? What are the solutions to handle such folks?

I think this is the first posting where in it is acknowledged NBs practice discrimination. So far so good Shall put this slightly differently Brahmins and NBs join together to deny Dalits Right. Dalits have double whammy to deal with But similarly Brahmins also have double Whammy 27% reservation for SC/ST The balance of 67% by the caste Hindus Now you see Dalits and cate Hindus jointly acting . This is exactly Mandal Asthram that has armed the caste Hindus Who is to fight their casteism ? Will Mayavathis strategy work?

Jambu

 

[Harini]

Answers in boldface within quote

I have numbered your questions for better legibility for my answers.

1) Please read vijayanagr history. Most brahmins were appointed to high offices, or wealthy traders, or were military commanders, or were given endowments / grants by rulers to gain their support, or were durga-dandanayakas, and so on...brahmins were certainly well off atleast 500 years back.

Even today some Corporates appoint Brahmins and they are well off. It doesn't mean that they committed crime against Daliths.

2) Its outright silly to claim brahmins were historically never educated, just bcoz the education scenario changed during the british raj.

Come out with fact as to what they derived out of the so called education. What was achieved with that education? Was there any Newton in Brahmin that Vijayanagar Empire employed? Are the non- Brahmins ready to take vedic education as education today?

3) Please read the dharmashastras. And if in doubt about who wrote them, please consult mutt gurus for clarification.

PS: Nobody (including brahmins) is denying anyone their rights today. It is only a miniscule number of mutt heads (like a celebrity guru who urged everyone to go back to their traditional occupations) and some certain priests (like the kashi priest of the india untouched movie) who insist that shudras should not be given the right to study. They are anomalies alright. But why don't we see many brahmins saying anything against their pov?

Why pov has to be voiced on every matter by every Brahmin? Today Brahmin has to generate pov favourable to Reservation for Brahmins. That should be the priority.

As regards NBs who practice discrimination, they do have a class problem. In anycase, the 'dalits' have a double-whammy to deal with (brahmins on one hand who keep defining their occupation by birth; and self-styled NB 'forward castes' who want to be considered supreme by keeping the 'dalits' suppressed). Both types need to be dealt with firmly. But how? What are the solutions to handle such folks?

Solution: Reservation for Brahmins

 

[Raghy]

Sow.Sri.Happy Hindu,

As long as mutts and priests keep invoking caste-by-birth chants (with the claim that shudras have no right to study or enter temples); anger amongst 'dalits' will exist.

I unconditionally agree with you on this, 100 percent. We used to chant 'Purusha Suktam' by rote. Once we knew the meaning about Varna creation, we started feeling uncomfortable chanting that part; eventually we (I and my wife) stopped it altogether. My self, yourself and all the others are just everyday citizens going about our business; the religious leaders and priests have an obligation to guide the masses in a right and equitable just path even if most of us may not listen to them at all. Unfortunately, they fail to fulfill their obligation. It is shameful to watch them exhibiting their ignorance by propagating discriminative explanations with straight face and assumed authority (I refer to India-untouched. Hopwever, Stalin did a lousy job of editing such comments. He should have done better. But the priests should not have spoken such words).

Politicians are only taking advantage of the caste-system. Most politicians will be out of job if the caste system is wiped out.

I agree with this too. DMK party grew up on caste based politics. DK party (the mother of DMK party) is pure caste based hatred. (I have seen Naicker community treating dalis like garbage even today. I picked Naicker community for obvious reasons).

To begin with, i have asked Shri RVR to legally change his jaathi (occupation) to that of a Lohar / Blacksmith. By his own admission, Shri RVR is now a proud shudra. Let Shri RVR make the required attempts for caste-change, and then let us see what his experiances with various government officials are.

I don't think it will work. I have already tried. I was a Tool Maker (for 30 long years). I requested to be considered as 'karumaan' கருமான்'. Was not successful in 1978. I don't know now though. Our Thasildar had a very good laugh. That's all. (Nataraja Iyer...He helped everyone. One can just walk up to his home and discuss a petition at any time of the day ( and up to 9 PM).Absolutely no corruption. Never took any money from anyone). When such a person laughs and turned me down, I left it at that.

Cheers!

 

[RKB]

A famous Brahmin Matrimony service in Mylapore has expressed by data available with it an analysis. For every 1000 Brahmin boy available for marriage (about 270 are divorcees) there are only 932 Brahmin girls (about 175 here again are divorcees) available for finding match. A divorced boy has only 73% chance of remarriage whereas above 95% of the divorcee girls get married (not necessarily with Brahmin boy).

This is one of the significant reason for declining Brahmin population in Tamilnadu. Actually it has been suggested to top members of TAMBHRAS to do some comprehensive study on it. But there is an hesitation on their part to indulge in such things.

Are we ready for an introspection?

 

[happyhindu]

I agree with this too. DMK party grew up on caste based politics. DK party (the mother of DMK party) is pure caste based hatred. (I have seen Naicker community treating dalis like garbage even today. I picked Naicker community for obvious reasons).

Small correction Sri Raghy, Naicker is not a caste / community. It is a mere title. Various communities (like Vanniyars, Rajakambalars, etc) use the title Naicker.

I don't think it will work. I have already tried. I was a Tool Maker (for 30 long years). I requested to be considered as 'karumaan' கருமான்'. Was not successful in 1978. I don't know now though. Our Thasildar had a very good laugh. That's all. (Nataraja Iyer...He helped everyone. One can just walk up to his home and discuss a petition at any time of the day ( and up to 9 PM).Absolutely no corruption. Never took any money from anyone). When such a person laughs and turned me down, I left it at that.

Cheers!

Times have changed wayyyyy long since 1978 or even 1994 (when i tried). Its about the present. Let us see what Shri RVR's efforts bring.

 

[RKB]

Waiting to happen. I only feel that the humanity now has matured and the scale of Genocide will be much less. Jews died without demanding anything and they got Israel as a gift after the war. The same should also happen to Brahmins if we are not in a position to consolidate our voice by proper coordination. God is great.

Dear Shri RKB, The Nazis of Germany murdered 6 million Jews because they were Jews. How many Brahmins were put to death because they were Brahmins?

Thank you...

 

[Raghy]

Small correction Sri Raghy, Naicker is not a caste / community. It is a mere title. Various communities (like Vanniyars, Rajakambalars, etc) use the title Naicker.

Sow.Sri.Happy Hindu,

I don't know. Even today in our village they call themselves 'Naicker community'. One good joke for you....there is one EV Ramasamy Naicker statue in our village, erected by one youngster's effort from Naickers of our village. I asked him why he joined DK party and had that statue erected...He said he joined the party and had the statue erected because EVR was a 'Naicker'! But he was a very nice boy though (but discriminated Harijans).

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

I have numbered your questions for better legibility for my answers.

1) Please read vijayanagr history. Most brahmins were appointed to high offices, or wealthy traders, or were military commanders, or were given endowments / grants by rulers to gain their support, or were durga-dandanayakas, and so on...brahmins were certainly well off atleast 500 years back.

Even today some Corporates appoint Brahmins and they are well off. It doesn't mean that they committed crime against Daliths.

Well you asked if brahmins were wealthy and i provided an answer for that. Ofcourse brahmins only created the dharmashastras, they never got their hands dirty by enforcing the caste system with the sword themselves (please read about farmer riots during the vijayangar and marattha period. the brahmin peshwas did carry out physical violence against dalits themselves).

2) Its outright silly to claim brahmins were historically never educated, just bcoz the education scenario changed during the british raj.

Come out with fact as to what they derived out of the so called education. What was achieved with that education? Was there any Newton in Brahmin that Vijayanagar Empire employed? Are the non- Brahmins ready to take vedic education as education today?

What did they derive? Well, the same standing that you derive from your education today. If they had no education, how cud they be employed as high officers (or in jobs like accountants that we consider ordinary today).

Yes ofcourse TTD opened its veda patshalas to NBs and there are NBs studying there: Vedic School opens doors to Dalits, non-Brahmins In Maharashtra too, Namboodiris are running a veda patshala for NBs. Why tehre are female NBs also becoming priests: Indian City Opens Doorway to Female Hindu Priests | Womens eNews

3) Please read the dharmashastras. And if in doubt about who wrote them, please consult mutt gurus for clarification.

PS: Nobody (including brahmins) is denying anyone their rights today. It is only a miniscule number of mutt heads (like a celebrity guru who urged everyone to go back to their traditional occupations) and some certain priests (like the kashi priest of the india untouched movie) who insist that shudras should not be given the right to study. They are anomalies alright. But why don't we see many brahmins saying anything against their pov?

Why pov has to be voiced on every matter by every Brahmin? Today Brahmin has to generate pov favourable to Reservation for Brahmins. That should be the priority.

So you want reservations without addressing social issues that lead to the reservations first?

As regards NBs who practice discrimination, they do have a class problem. In anycase, the 'dalits' have a double-whammy to deal with (brahmins on one hand who keep defining their occupation by birth; and self-styled NB 'forward castes' who want to be considered supreme by keeping the 'dalits' suppressed). Both types need to be dealt with firmly. But how? What are the solutions to handle such folks?

Solution: Reservation for Brahmins

Is that the solution to deal with caste-discrimination against 'dalits'?

 

[Raghy]

Sow.Sri.Happy Hindu,

As regards NBs who practice discrimination, they do have a class problem. In anycase, the 'dalits' have a double-whammy to deal with (brahmins on one hand who keep defining their occupation by birth; and self-styled NB 'forward castes' who want to be considered supreme by keeping the 'dalits' suppressed). Both types need to be dealt with firmly. But how? What are the solutions to handle such folks?

You are spot on in this observation. I have seen NBs and Bs join hands to discriminate Dalits. But that was long ago. I don't think it happens anymore. But, most NBs are not receptive of harijans yet. I also notice that Harijans are more comfortable with caste brahmins (In my village one Harijan got annoyed with the caste based discrimination faced by one of my Iyengar friends..This Harijan took the Iyengar's application for employment and obtained him a state Government employment too!). Following the example of Sri.RVR, there should be more interactions and co-operation between Caste brahmins and Dalits for mutual benefits. From my personal experience, Dalits were one of the most polite communities.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Well ppl used to be rather proud of their caste-titles i suppose (in casual terms the title used to be given more importance than the caste to which they belonged). You should have asked the boy which caste did they belong to. If they were tamil-speaking, i doubt if they wud have belonged to the same caste as EVR. Anyways, a lot of people associated themselves with EVR, so it might have been a case of "idol-worship".

Sow.Sri.Happy Hindu,

I don't know. Even today in our village they call themselves 'Naicker community'. One good joke for you....there is one EV Ramasamy Naicker statue in our village, erected by one youngster's effort from Naickers of our village. I asked him why he joined DK party and had that statue erected...He said he joined the party and had the statue erected because EVR was a 'Naicker'! But he was a very nice boy though (but discriminated Harijans).

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Good to see your observations Raghy. Yes i think there needs to be more interaction b/w brahmins and dalits in villages.

Sow.Sri.Happy Hindu,

You are spot on in this observation. I have seen NBs and Bs join hands to discriminate Dalits. But that was long ago. I don't think it happens anymore. But, most NBs are not receptive of harijans yet. I also notice that Harijans are more comfortable with caste brahmins (In my village one Harijan got annoyed with the caste based discrimination faced by one of my Iyengar friends..This Harijan took the Iyengar's application for employment and obtained him a state Government employment too!). Following the example of Sri.RVR, there should be more interactions and co-operation between Caste brahmins and Dalits for mutual benefits. From my personal experience, Dalits were one of the most polite communities.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

This discussion is about influencing the Government policy and making it favourable to deserving all, including the Brahmins

Solution: Reservation for Brahmins

Harini, IMO, one ought to be careful what they wish for, it may come true to haunt.

If Brahmins were to be awarded reservation, then one has to presume that all 100% will be divvied up in proportion to respective size of each caste in relation to the total population. My guess is, this will hurt TBs more than the present situation.

Cheers!

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

I have a simple solution to avoid all these administrative legal and misuse of these reservation and what not Restrict the entry of Brahmans ( not reserve) and the rest 97 should be happy about it At least courts will be spared of these litigation and can concentrate more on it legal duties! In every forum it is claimed 3% of population eating 50% of the cake etc This is my Imagination Is it advisable I do not know about its implication. This will be one single law easy to administer and monitor and no need for reservation with in reservation etc Jambu:crazy:

 

[Nara]

Waiting to happen. I only feel that the humanity now has matured and the scale of Genocide will be much less. Jews died without demanding anything and they got Israel as a gift after the war. The same should also happen to Brahmins if we are not in a position to consolidate our voice by proper coordination.

Dear Shri RKB, Greetings!

I am puzzled by your prediction, "Waiting to happen." Do you really think a Nazi style mass murder of TBs is just a matter of time, "waiting to happen"? AFAIK, not a single TB has died because of his caste, and there is no gathering danger even vaguely similar to what the Jews saw all around them during the rise of popularity for the Nazi party. I may be wrong, but perhaps this is just musings based on some gut-level feelings.

The life of Jews was not a bed of roses even prior to the great wars of the 20th century. From Merchant of Venice we can deduce that a myriad of restrictions were placed upon Jews, like where they can live, how late in the evening they can be out of their residences, what kind of vocation they are allowed to pursue, etc.

Much of the antisemitism of post-reformation Europe can be traced to the "great" Christian reformer Martin Luther's book "On the Jews and their lies". The fact is, the Nazis found succor for their antisemitism from such religious figures. The Catholics were silent supporters. The present pope was a Hitler youth.

If we take all these into account, the plight of European Jews are probably more comparable to the plight of Dalits, not Brahmins. Brahmins can be compared to the Catholic elites and Martin Luther, on the side of the perpetrators if not perpetrators themselves.

Another piece of fact, the Jews of Europe had a much better life than the Dalits and were treated a lot better by the Europeans -- Jews were not treated as untouchables, nor were they denied education.

I remember Kunjuppu saying medieval Europe is a subject he is interested in, perhaps he can give some more details.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

Nara,

I am no student or shadow of student of medieval eruopean history. It is true that I am fascinated by it, but would not considerable a quotable resource. But I am always fascinated by this ever increasing comparison of tamil Brahmins to jews.

Please treat this note as a courtesy to you and not as an authorative record of any erudition.

- I think this idea of comparing tamil Brahmins to jews is a recent thing built up by some individuals having an exaggerated view of our community. Had this idea originated from the jews, then I would give it some credibility; since it did not, I think this is a joke
- Jesus was born a jew and of the two testaments in the bible, the first testament is a common religious book to both the jews and the Christians. Even the muslims revere the jews as ‘people of the book’; Brahmins have no such recognition
- Since the dawn of western Christianity the relationship between jews and Christians was one of need/hate. Need because the kings and merchants needed the jew money to finance wars or businesses (usury ie charging interest for money - is prohibited by both christianity and islam). When it came to return the money due to bad decisions, it was easier to default by vilifying the jews. The Brahmins had no such money oriented relationship with the rest of hindudom. The banias aka chettiars did.
- The jews have an erudite background – they have produced scholars from times immemorial and ventured into curiosity and scientific thought since 500 years or so. The Brahmins have had an erudite background, but have not ventured into curiosity or scientific thought for atleast a couple of millenniums (to the best of my knowledge). There is no use to blame the muslims or british for this. the jews did their thinking while still living in muslim and Christian lands
- There is no monolithic jewish thought ie there are as many interpretations of the ideal jew as there are number of jews. Ie they are very arguementative. TBs might find commonality in this aspect.
- The jews have made philanthropy a way of life. Take any city where they lived and prospered and you would find hospitals, schools and community centres, courtesy of their commitment to give back to the society (in north india, the Sassoon hospitals are well known I believe). The TBs are known for their tight fist and not known to have sufficient money to consider philanthropy as a standalone act, let alone a way of life
- For their numbers, the jews are represented in overwhelming numbers in the Nobel prizes. For their numbers, the TBs are overwhelmingly represented in Nobel prizes (when you consider only Indians)
- The jews are a diaspora ie till the recent founding of Israel, they had no land to consider their own for over 2000 years. The TBs are tamil land bound group, at the most venturing to other parts of south india till about 100 years ago, when they too ventured out for economic solely purpose.
- The jews have been driven out during their diaspora from host countries, have been pogrommed and ultimately holocausted when 6 million of them died at the hands of Nazis, with active help from the Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, Romanians, Hungarians, Slovaks, French among others. The TBs have prospered in their diaspora (a recent phenomenon nevertheless) and those who have left India are happy living away (generally) and no inclination to return
- The jewish women have had access to education from the start and were equal partners in the household. The women inherited money and managed business. The TBs till recently shaved the head of widows of the family, and consigned them to the kitchen and deprived them of all property rites.
- Barring Israel, wherever the jews lived, they have been an enlightening minority putting all their eggs on the side of freedom, democracy and liberalism. TB have broadly supported the conservative grous of their new countries
- The jews tend to spread their interests and vocation among science, arts and engineering. TBs tend to congregate only among engineering.

These are some reasons but not all of how much we differ from the jews. To call us the jews of india – I am not sure, whether we be insulting jews, india or having a good laugh at ourselves.

 

[Nara]

....These are some reasons but not all of how much we differ from the jews. To call us the jews of india – I am not sure, whether we be insulting jews, india or having a good laugh at ourselves.

Dear K, thank you for the "sangom"isc thorough reply, with a touch of humor.

When I look around from my little vantage point here in the middle of the bible belt of USA, I see Jews are upfront in protecting the rights of minorities. Jews were represented in significantly large proportion in the civil-rights struggle. When a group in upstate NY had some trouble building a Hindu temple I am familiar with, it was Jewish neighbors who stood by the Hindus. Heck, Jews are quite strong even in the opposition to Israeli hegemony and violence.

Thanks Kunjuppu, I appreciate you taking my request seriously,

Cheers!