Reservation for Brahmins

[Harini]

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Those who post are those who want them to be counted in Tamilnadu as well. Every count will improve our tally.

My two cents' worth of observation as a member:

It is funny that most of the members (it appears that way) who argue for or against reservation are from outside India, citizens of other countries and they have no bearing whatsoever on what is going on in India!!

 

[Harini]

There is no pressure on Appollo to adhear to Reservation for appointments. It only has to conform to MCI norms for a qualifications in appointments. Most of the time it will be constrained for appointment based on budgeted package for a position and thus will compromise on merit.

Professionals without professionalism of merit are everywhere in Government hospitals. The problems of India can be mitigated only if atleast a few real professionals get in to such environments. Such professionals should demand it as their right and should not run away from such problems!

today, even in apollo, it is gratifying to see specialists of all castes and groups. what it has done, is to pry apart the connotation of education from caste. although not completely. yet.

hope you don't mind this intervention.

 

[pannvalan]

I do agree with Silver Fox. Those who live abroad may not have undergone the kind of ordeal brahmins undergo in Tamilnadu, nor they are aware of the harsh realities prevailing here.

I do agree that reservation per se is not bad, as I have always been telling. But, one single parameter i.e. caste alone should not decide the reservation. Then, the Supreme Court's ruling of fixing a cap of 50% and exclusion of the creamy layer from the ambit of reservation are followed more in breach. All political parties play this dangerous game just to keep their vote bank intact and growing.

Finally, the reservation has not really benefited those whom it was originally aimed at. The rich and the powerful enjoying reservation benefits is quite shameful, even after 60 years of independence.

Regarding management quota mentioned by Harini, yes it is available to FCs, but at what cost? Can everyone afford such huge fees for the professional courses of study?

Bank loans have come in handy, but several bank managers are either unhelpful and rude or will give education loan only to those who offer collateral securities or when they are approached through a well known person/customer.

Reservation for someone must not result in denial of the same education to a highly deserving student. Until 12th standard, students are not aware of or never bothered to know the caste divisions amongst them. They move like one single lot. When they want to enter the college, they get the shock of their life. A person with just 40% could get admission in the same college, where the other FC student had to struggle to enter with 90% of marks on hand. What sort of social justice it is? Is not reverse discrimination? This has created much heart-burn in the intelligent youth of today.

After the studies are over, in employment also the same old story continues. Then after getting employment, even in promotions reservation is adopted. To tell you a live example, my friend's father was a station master in Indian Railways. He joined as booking clerk and got just 2 promotions in his entire career, whereas his junior who worked under him got 5 promotions during the same period, even though the latter's performance was not all that good (It was not bad either).

I staunchly oppose the evil effects of privatisation and globalisation. But they only seem to offer relief from 3 major diseases plaguing the nation -
1. Reservation, 2. Onslaught and dominance of Hindi and people from the Hindi speaking areas and 3. Absence of straight,well defined career path, in government and public sector

I request new members like Harini to kindly go through the earlier threads, where this topic has been analyzed in minute detail.

 

[prasanth1]

Prasanth 1 said:-

Sri.Prasanth,

If you think the caste based reservation system is 'perhaps flawed', you have no right to tell Sow.Harini to accept it. You do not even have a right to ask , leave alone telling someone to accept a flawed system.Cheers!

I did not tell Harini to accept anything. My post responded to opinions he gave in specific about reservation as "punishment" and the narrow, unhelpful perspective I feel that such opinions comes from. Kindly do not put words in my mouth. Thank you.

By the way, if you think any system with flaws should be eliminated without question, please remove democracy in India while you're at it.

 

[Nara]

....It is funny that most of the members (it appears that way) who argue for or against reservation are from outside India, citizens of other countries and they have no bearing whatsoever on what is going on in India!!

Dear Sri Silverfox, The other side of this coin is people living in India are too close to the problem and fail to see the broader picture, too bogged down by their own individual experiences. Further, successful Brahmins living in India tend to carry a boat load of ego which blinds them to see anything beyond their own immediate circumstances.

On the other hand, people living outside are more likely to develop a broader perspective. When you see raw racism in USA we get a chance to understand the Dalit plight better. When you see the progress African Americans have made in spite of the continuing racism, one gets to realize what could be achieved even while Brahminism of avowed Brahminists still continue. When you see how the open expression of racism is dealt with in the USA, you wonder how people in India get to openly, adamantly, and proudly practice casteism.

So, IMO, where you reside must not determine whether the argument presented is valid or not, only the merit of the argument should decide that.

my two n.p.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

My two cents' worth of observation as a member:

It is funny that most of the members (it appears that way) who argue for or against reservation are from outside India, citizens of other countries and they have no bearing whatsoever on what is going on in India!!

Sri.Silverfox,

Greetings. I am neither taliking in favour nor against the reservation system. All I am saying is, the citizens of India should be encouraged and allowed to follow the democratic process; secondly, unless scrutinised, any system can not be improved upon or a totally unfair sysatem can not come through. It is true, I am not affected prsently by that system.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

.....By the way, if you think any system with flaws should be eliminated without question, please remove democracy in India while you're at it.

Dear prasanth1,
You make a very good observation. At the social and political level no system can be viewed as flawless by everyone. Even the hallowed democracy has its flaws. Political parties tend to appeal to the least common denominator and stoke their worst fears. Even in the best of liberal democracies in which basic rights of mnorites are protected bad decisions get made with large majority support, viz. Iraq war of 2003, and good decisions get wide spread opposition. Democracy will work for everyone only when people cultivate thinking that go beyond their immediate self-interest.

In this respect, schools in India seem to fall short. It seems to me that our young citizens are taught to take a kind of visceral pride in India that borders on jigoism. But, they woefully fail to develop in our youngsters a sense of shared welfare among all sections of the people. This, IMO, is at the root of this totally absurd notion that the reservation system that attempts to even out the structural asymmetry against the oppressed is a form of punishment against the ones who never experienced any oppression. As you observed few days ago, the simple act of understanding this reality is not assuming some sort of passed down guilt.

Thank you for your perspective, I appreciate it ....

 

[Raghy]

I did not tell Harini to accept anything. My post responded to opinions he gave in specific about reservation as "punishment" and the narrow, unhelpful perspective I feel that such opinions comes from. Kindly do not put words in my mouth. Thank you.

By the way, if you think any system with flaws should be eliminated without question, please remove democracy in India while you're at it.

Sri.Prasanth 1,

You said that the caste based reservation is 'perhaps flawed'; then you went on to write in justification to that flawed system. It is hard selling, in my opinion. I am not putting words in your mouth; I am only observing your actions. Citizens of India asking for an alteration in that 'flawed system' is a simple democratic process. You don't seem to realise that you are opposing a democratic process.

Indian democractic scene is always evolviing. Since you fail to understand my message, you are asking me to remove democracy in India; but it keeps changing and the old one gets 'removed' while the new one takes shape. The basic process may be the same; but the details keep changing. that is also a democratic process.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

raghy,

may i please present a case as a person of interest, please?

i think, the current caste based reservation may be flawed. but even as a flawed system, it has done wonders to uplift so many groups and rural folks to smell the air of the professionals and middle class.

today, even in apollo, it is gratifying to see specialists of all castes and groups. what it has done, is to pry apart the connotation of education from caste. although not completely. yet.

hope you don't mind this intervention.

Sri.Kunjuppu,

Greetings. In a public forum, there is no question of intervention. If I did not like interventions, then I should have conducted my conversation in PM only. That is not the case.

You are right. A large portion of the lower caste persons have benefitted. But, in my opinion, it was not just due to flawed caste based reservation system, but inspite of it. Removal of discriminations against lower caste and Harijans was the main goal of the reservation system. But in reality, I observed discrimination against Harijans in July, 2010 in Tamil Nadu. (Sri.Nara does not like personal anectodes; but, even Sri.Nara can't deny the discriminations as shown in the 'India - Untouched you tube serial. That is not personal anectode). Present caste based reservation system is detrimental to lower and middle socio-economic classes belonging to FC and BC. Still persons belonging to MBC discriminate Harijans; also enjoy benefits from caste based reservation. I sincerely hope that I am making myself clear.

Any social syatem can be improved, so can be reservation system. I never said that there should be no reservation system. All I am saying is, when the system is flawed, why not allow a democratic process to bering out a more equitable system? Secondly, when one knows that the caste based reservation system is flawed, how can one continue to write in justification of such a flawed system? Only Sow.Happy Hindu saw my point of view;the alternative suggestyed by Sow.Happy Hindu is so much equitable, addressing all the lower castes, lower and very poor socio-economic groups.

I hope this explain my stand more clearer.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Kunjuppu,

As an addition to post #823. Rich people belonging to caste brahmin and other FC and BC communities still continue to discriminate Harijans. When it comes to discriminations, they all band together. I see that in every festival at the local temple in my village; I saw that in my recent trip too. (My poor daughter was totally confused with such talks. I had to debrief her on the way back). Such rich people are not affected by this reservation system; even in those days they could 'buy' seats in any college; or a large portion of them don't care about this reservation system, beacuse their children seldom seek higher studies. (They have enough money, established business etc. Why do we study hard? To earn good money?, well, they are earning good money already anyway). Such situation also prompts me to advocate for a more equitable reservation system.

But, at the end of the day, as Sri.Silverfox mentioned, I am not even living in India; I may not talk about this.

Cheers!

 

[RKB]

We want Democracy

Sure Democracy is not an absolute thing. But it is not skewed against an individual or a community. The flaws of Democracy comes most from executing it. But 'Reservation' in India is faulty by its attitude against Brahmins. We want democracy. We want Reservation that serves Brahmins also.

By the way, if you think any system with flaws should be eliminated without question, please remove democracy in India while you're at it.

 

[RKB]

A System and not discrimination.

I visit Kapaleeshwarar temple almost regularly. Even today only Brahmin Priests can enter its Sanctum Sanctorium. But when a NB artisan wants to take measurement for making Kavacham he is permitted after some Anuhtanams. Only Oduvars are permitted to recite hymns from the first Prakaram during puja times. Only Hindus are permitted in the Second Prakaram. This is the place a Foreigner with white skin is treated differently! People of all sects, castes and creeds are allowed in the outer Prakaram. No Foreigner ever complains that he has been discriminated before God in Hindu Temple for all this. During Arubathumoovar there is still a unwritten rule that which community members will pull from which position the Ther (Chariot). Only Brahmins carry the deity during Pradhosham days. Predominantly only NBs carry the deity to and out from Thanga Ther that happens almost everyday. None complained any discrimination about these things till date. But DK can still project these things as discrimination.

Basically these are arrangements for convenience. A Foreigner taking photograph near Sanctum Sanctorium will be an obtrusion for devotees. But a white lady married to a Hindu may find the practice discriminating till things get explained and she is accommodated. Exaggerating such things should not lead to Reservation for Foreigners in Darshan (NRI Brahmins will prefer it, but it is foolish). That in fact is the foolishness of our Reservation system.

Remember Reservation was supported by all the Brahmins wholeheartedly initially when it was meant for uplifting the Daliths who were lagging. But they are lagging now also and others who do not deserve Reservation are reaping benefit from this. Therefore correction is called for and that can only be Reservation for Brahmins.

Sri.Kunjuppu,

As an addition to post #823. Rich people belonging to caste brahmin and other FC and BC communities still continue to discriminate Harijans. When it comes to discriminations, they all band together. I see that in every festival at the local temple in my village; I saw that in my recent trip too. (My poor daughter was totally confused with such talks. I had to debrief her on the way back). Such rich people are not affected by this reservation system; even in those days they could 'buy' seats in any college; or a large portion of them don't care about this reservation system, beacuse their children seldom seek higher studies. (They have enough money, established business etc. Why do we study hard? To earn good money?, well, they are earning good money already anyway). Such situation also prompts me to advocate for a more equitable reservation system.

But, at the end of the day, as Sri.Silverfox mentioned, I am not even living in India; I may not talk about this.

Cheers!

P.S: The guard at Kapaleeshwarar temple shouting a Foreigner out is a disturbing sight. But he is still only doing his duty. Unfortunately he was not trained to handle such situations and he definitely will not have any discriminatory attitudes. He may be even liberal if that foreigner greases his palm in a right way.

The root of all the stories of discrimination has genesis only in the ignorance and impoverished nature of the people and not in their attitude. Sometimes it gets blown out of proportion and paves way for vested interests to make rich harvest out of it.

 

[Ganamukundhapriya]

மத்தளத்துக்கு இரண்டு பக்கமும் அடி

Sir, I like the way by which you carry forward in this discussion. I hope that you will accept that the Brahminis who were reported as discriminating others citing things like Dharmasaastram etc were also ignorant of the right meaning of things. Dharmasaastram can only be a compilation of what is considered as Dharma in a innovative narrative. Therefore all communities are contributors to it. Brahmins did not authored it in entirety.

By general perception Brahmins were at the middle level of the Caste Hierarchy. Therefore they were used by both the people above them and below them as a neutral point of interface. They are in to the Sanctum Sanctorium because of this status and not because they are considered as the superior. For the same reason Britishers found them good as a teacher. But when the community pressurized the classes to be separated between Daliths and others, between girls and boys etc - they are not in anyway responsible for it. Today also no teacher can be held responsible for the negative effect of Reservation system in the class room.

• மத்தளத்துக்கு இரண்டு பக்கமும் அடி. That is the truth about the Brahmins then. True the Brahmins are treated like this only because of their chaste attitude.

The root of all the stories of discrimination has genesis only in the ignorance and impoverished nature of the people and not in their attitude. Sometimes it gets blown out of proportion and paves way for vested interests to make rich harvest out of it.

 

[RKB]

This forum is the solution to the 'Suffering Brahmins'. But those who had voted against the Reservation should see sense in it. they should understand that 'Migration' cannot be a permanent solution. After such realization, they should extend their support to one who is ready to dig in to action.

 

[Harini]

Daliths were not discriminated by us.

Recently I skimmed through an article in The Hindu about Britain's plan to include Caste based discriminations (like that on Daliths) over Race based discrimination (like Muslims, Hind etc). Though most in India have accepted with positive attitude the Reservation for SCs and STs (including me) for enabling and empowering them to come up, it still cannot be accepted if it is reasoned as based on 'discrimination'. The picture is created as if the rest of India discriminated them when it is not. For instance, if it is about entry in to the temples... temples always remained open for believers. Even today the temples restrict those coming with attitudes other then 'belief' and that is what is the reason for restriction on foreigners in Kapaleeshwarar temple. I have seen Foreigners who come with belief gaining entry easily (I saw one meditating before Dakshinamoorthy by yesterday) when at the same when they enter with an attitude 'to know' they are restricted (but not prevented or discriminated!).

Daliths did not believed the Hindu Gods and therefore they have been restricted in the past. Including 'Nandanar', they later proved their belief and gained entry. Now the same Daliths are submitting Thesis in various Universities that Hinduism is trying to hide from history their traditional Gods and worship practices. But the truth is that they are trying to rewrite History to their convenience.

If the traditional worship practices and Gods of Daliths have to be revived, it should be done only by the Daliths. Though they have turned themselves in to believer of Hinduism, Hinduism has accepted them in to its fold with all their traditional Gods and worship practices. They jumped from their traditional Gods to Buddhism/ Christianity first and then only to Hinduism. It is time that they realize that their false story of 'discrimination' will only perpetuate divide in our society. Their attempt to internationalize it due to vested temptations has to be discouraged.

By general perception Brahmins were at the middle level of the Caste Hierarchy. Therefore they were used by both the people above them and below them as a neutral point of interface. They are in to the Sanctum Sanctorium because of this status and not because they are considered as the superior. For the same reason Britishers found them good as a teacher. But when the community pressurized the classes to be separated between Daliths and others, between girls and boys etc - they are not in anyway responsible for it. Today also no teacher can be held responsible for the negative effect of Reservation system in the class room.

• மத்தளத்துக்கு இரண்டு பக்கமும் அடி. That is the truth about the Brahmins then. True the Brahmins are treated like this only because of their chaste attitude.

 

[Raghy]

Sow.Sri.Harini,

Greetings. I wish to comment on post #390, please.

Daliths did not believed the Hindu Gods and therefore they have been restricted in the past.

I am not going to go into 'Shan Madham', 'formation of Hinduism' etc, although it may be valid. There is no such thing as 'Hinduism Gods'; on the other hand, Hinduism is so flexible, anything and everything can be seen as God. So, technically speaking, anything Daliths believed can be under the wider umbrella of 'Hindu God'. Daliths were restricted in the temple entry because they were Daliths. Period. Belief or the lack of it was never a factor in consideration. Belief in Hindu God or for that matter, any God is subjective. We can not measure it objectively.

I object to the above statement. There can never be any justification in keeping one from entering a temple.

Including 'Nandanar', they later proved their belief and gained entry.

This is adding insult to injury. When was the last time the other 'caste Hindus' 'proved their belief'? How did they gain enter if they did not 'prove their belief'? I have never heard of such condition to gain entry to a temple. (personally speaking, the very first athiest I came across was the elderly Gurukkal next door in my village. His philosophies were great, mainly centered on service. To prove the faith to gain entry!....indeed!). If the Daliths have to prove 'Nandanaar like high level faith' to gain entry in any temple when the other caste Hindus need not to prove any such belief, then, what is wrong if the other caste Hindus are required to 'prove their intelligence by getting 95 percent or above to gain entry to Engineering and Medical courses, where Daliths need not get any such marks to prove their intelligence. I hope, Sow.Harini may see the huge hole in her argument.

Now the same Daliths are submitting Thesis in various Universities that Hinduism is trying to hide from history their traditional Gods and worship practices.

Forget about Daliths submitting thesis if they do, Hinduism did cover up so many practices. Sri.Periyavaal said that there were about 72 different faiths in India of which only 6 were chosen to form Hinduism. So, the rest of 66 were indeed covered up.

The rest of the message contradicts itself. If Brahmins ask for reservation, that is a simple democratic process. I don't see the reason to villify Daliths in that attempt. They are not connected at all.

Cheers!

 

[Harini]

You are correct with facts sir. But you infer in a way you have been tutored. There was no Hinduism is correct. There were 72 different faiths and so Daliths and Believers in Shiva/Vishnu are different. Daliths had their own Gods and therefore they did not visited the temples of others (Say Vishnu and Shiva temple) just as Christians do not visit Hindu temples nowadays. They were not discriminated but were only restricted just as a Foreigner is restricted in Kapaleeshwarar temple. IT is not any Hindus who chose to include only 6 faiths. That is by the British Historians and they only played the card of 'Discrimination' to divide India. Now they are taking it in to International level.

Non believers do not have any business in the place of worship. But non believers in a belief will be obtrusive and therefore restrictions are imposed on them in places of worship all around the world. You may not see it happening at a Hindu Temple at USA for Hindus otherwise will be discriminated by Americans. But it is there in almost all the churches in Europe. I was not allowed in to the Dalith's Iyanar temple in my native place for the reason I was a women. I just respect the tradition and do not make a big fuss about it as discrimination. Please come out your 'period' mindset sir.

Nobody has to prove their belief to anyone except God sir. I have indeed mentioned about a Foreigner meditating in Kapaleeshwarar temple. Your belief will get you in. If you see God as 'hole' you will see hole everywhere.

I believe in the prowess of Daliths and never has villified them in my posting. I am only suggesting that they should approach the society by building 'Bridge of Trust' with other communities. Their mood to alienate themselves from all the Hindus cannot be correct. As yo say, Hinduism has proved flexible in accommodating all. Why should then they should endeavor to malign its secular image?

Just try to elaborate in your mind as to how formation of 'Shan Madham' by Adi Sankara is different from the way Hinduism is formed by the British Historians. Work positively for getting connected with Daliths en mass as Brahmin community. Trying to carve divide between Harini and Daliths is what your education has taught you sir. Unfortunately you are wrongly educated for that matter.

I am not going to go into 'Shan Madham', 'formation of Hinduism' etc, although it may be valid. There is no such thing as 'Hinduism Gods'; on the other hand, Hinduism is so flexible, anything and everything can be seen as God. So, technically speaking, anything Daliths believed can be under the wider umbrella of 'Hindu God'. Daliths were restricted in the temple entry because they were Daliths. Period. Belief or the lack of it was never a factor in consideration. Belief in Hindu God or for that matter, any God is subjective. We can not measure it objectively.

I object to the above statement. There can never be any justification in keeping one from entering a temple.

This is adding insult to injury. When was the last time the other 'caste Hindus' 'proved their belief'? How did they gain enter if they did not 'prove their belief'? I have never heard of such condition to gain entry to a temple. (personally speaking, the very first athiest I came across was the elderly Gurukkal next door in my village. His philosophies were great, mainly centered on service. To prove the faith to gain entry!....indeed!). If the Daliths have to prove 'Nandanaar like high level faith' to gain entry in any temple when the other caste Hindus need not to prove any such belief, then, what is wrong if the other caste Hindus are required to 'prove their intelligence by getting 95 percent or above to gain entry to Engineering and Medical courses, where Daliths need not get any such marks to prove their intelligence. I hope, Sow.Harini may see the huge hole in her argument.

Forget about Daliths submitting thesis if they do, Hinduism did cover up so many practices. Sri.Periyavaal said that there were about 72 different faiths in India of which only 6 were chosen to form Hinduism. So, the rest of 66 were indeed covered up.

The rest of the message contradicts itself. If Brahmins ask for reservation, that is a simple democratic process. I don't see the reason to villify Daliths in that attempt. They are not connected at all.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

You are correct with facts sir. But you infer in a way you have been tutored. There was no Hinduism is correct. There were 72 different faiths and so Daliths and Believers in Shiva/Vishnu are different. Daliths had their own Gods and therefore they did not visited the temples of others (Say Vishnu and Shiva temple) just as Christians do not visit Hindu temples nowadays. They were not discriminated but were only restricted just as a Foreigner is restricted in Kapaleeshwarar temple. IT is not any Hindus who chose to include only 6 faiths. That is by the British Historians and they only played the card of 'Discrimination' to divide India. Now they are taking it in to International level.

Please let me know what do you think the 72 different faiths were? On what basis do you say that dalits and beleivers in Shiva / Vishnu are different people?

Non believers do not have any business in the place of worship. But non believers in a belief will be obtrusive and therefore restrictions are imposed on them in places of worship all around the world. You may not see it happening at a Hindu Temple at USA for Hindus otherwise will be discriminated by Americans. But it is there in almost all the churches in Europe. I was not allowed in to the Dalith's Iyanar temple in my native place for the reason I was a women. I just respect the tradition and do not make a big fuss about it as discrimination. Please come out your 'period' mindset sir.

Dunno if God bothers about gender as much as some men do. However, restriction to women is different from restriction based on caste.

A nice quote from thinkexist.com on "tradition":
"People are always talking about tradition, but they forget we have a tradition of a few hundred years of nonsense and stupidity, that there is a tradition of idiocy, incompetence and crudity".

Nobody has to prove their belief to anyone except God sir. I have indeed mentioned about a Foreigner meditating in Kapaleeshwarar temple. Your belief will get you in. If you see God as 'hole' you will see hole everywhere.

I believe in the prowess of Daliths and never has villified them in my posting. I am only suggesting that they should approach the society by building 'Bridge of Trust' with other communities. Their mood to alienate themselves from all the Hindus cannot be correct. As yo say, Hinduism has proved flexible in accommodating all. Why should then they should endeavor to malign its secular image?

People are no fools or jobless to "malign" any image. God does not bother about image. Perhaps the orthodoxy bothers much more about it than God. So please ask this same question to the orthodoxy why they want to malign dalits by keeping them as "untouchables" in orthodox-hinduism?

Just try to elaborate in your mind as to how formation of 'Shan Madham' by Adi Sankara is different from the way Hinduism is formed by the British Historians. Work positively for getting connected with Daliths en mass as Brahmin community. Trying to carve divide between Harini and Daliths is what your education has taught you sir. Unfortunately you are wrongly educated for that matter.

Rather, it wud be nice if you were to elaborate in your mind and let us know how you think the shanmadham was formed? And do let us know more about the 66 other faiths that were excluded.

 

[RKB]

Harini's POV is that there cannot be a tyrant from Brahmin who have imposed discrimination. Neither Hinduism nor Daliths had any description traditionally. Just they are all assemblage of faiths. It is when the faiths tried to mingle that problem arose. But the question is, should Brahmin community own responsibility for such?

 

[happyhindu]

Harini's POV is that there cannot be a tyrant from Brahmin who have imposed discrimination. Neither Hinduism nor Daliths had any description traditionally. Just they are all assemblage of faiths. It is when the faiths tried to mingle that problem arose. But the question is, should Brahmin community own responsibility for such?

Shri RKB,

IMO, the present brahmins cannot be blamed for things in the shastras. Nor can they be held responsible for what the orthodoxy propagates.

Nobody can influence the way the orthodoxy thinks and behaves. Therefore it is best to treat orthodoxy like Batuprasad Sharma as individuals alone and definitely not as a spokesperson for all brahmins.

The brahmin today does not even understand what all this caste hullaboo is about and why he is discriminated against when it comes to reservations.

As we move into the future, our lifestyles, our thinking, our astitva will all change rapidly further; and brahmins like everyone else are only going to move further into the changes. Nobody is going to go back to a medieval period.

Therefore i think its the orthodoxy that needs to find a way to remain relevant with changing times. They need to wake up and take on some responsibilty, in addressing the shastras; and how shastras need to be followed by all hindus in the present times.

If the orthodoxy does not do that, the current problems with missionaries, politicians, and exploiters of all forms, will remain.

Regards.

 

[RKB]

Orthodoxy is the culture of Brahmins and Brahmins should only know that they have been guaranteed by Indian Constitution to protect their culture. As per Indian Constitution, not only Daliths, even Sikhs, Jains, Buddhist are all Hindus. Therefore it is unconstitutional to say that Hinduism discriminates. Hinduism only accommodates. Unfortunately the Universities accepting the thesis of 'Hinduism discriminating Daliths' are not knowing the spirit of our Constitution.

Both 'Nandanar' and 'Abirami Bhattar' can be framed by a convenient story of torture. One is a Dalith and another is a Brahmin as per our understanding today. The rationalists of Hindu community treated both the Daliths and Brahmins as equal to Dogs. One Dog they petted and pampered. The other they pelted the stone. The Dogs which got used to such treatment are now empowered by our Constitution to assert their right. Are we going to do it? Or, are we going to bark at our own clan as the dogs do?

 

[happyhindu]

Orthodoxy is the culture of Brahmins and Brahmins should only know that they have been guaranteed by Indian Constitution to protect their culture. As per Indian Constitution, not only Daliths, even Sikhs, Jains, Buddhist are all Hindus. Therefore it is unconstitutional to say that Hinduism discriminates. Hinduism only accommodates. Unfortunately the Universities accepting the thesis of 'Hinduism discriminating Daliths' are not knowing the spirit of our Constitution.

Both 'Nandanar' and 'Abirami Bhattar' can be framed by a convenient story of torture. One is a Dalith and another is a Brahmin as per our understanding today. The rationalists of Hindu community treated both the Daliths and Brahmins as equal to Dogs. One Dog they petted and pampered. The other they pelted the stone. The Dogs which got used to such treatment are now empowered by our Constitution to assert their right. Are we going to do it? Or, are we going to bark at our own clan as the dogs do?

Shri RKB,

You speak just like one another person who said he was proud to be a shudra and is not to be seen here these days.

Brahmins have not been guaranteed under the indian constitution to protect untouchability.

The are specific acts and laws that prohibit both, caste discrimination as well as untouchability.

And that is the reason why people like Batuprasad Sharma keep getting arrested.

IMO, the constitution needs to make the punishment a lot more stringent than just a few days or months in prison.

Regards.

 

[Raghy]

Sow.Sri.Harini said -

Trying to carve divide between Harini and Daliths is what your education has taught you sir. Unfortunately you are wrongly educated for that matter.

Sow.Harini, greetings. My comments about the above quoted message, please. Firstly, I am not educated. Secondly, I don't see any difference between a Harijan or a caste brahmin or any other human being; I see everyone with the same respect. Thirdly, I try to help everyone within my capacity; I don't discriminate. I helped in the past; hopefully, I may be able to do so in the future too. I try to build a bridge, never carve a divide amoung people.

You are correct with facts sir. But you infer in a way you have been tutored. There was no Hinduism is correct. There were 72 different faiths and so Daliths and Believers in Shiva/Vishnu are different.

Sow.Harini, like I said before, I am not learned. The information about 72 faiths, Shan Matham etc, I collected from 'Dheivathin Kural' - Book #1. There were many 'village specific Devatha Upasana' prior to the formation of Hinduism. Even today some of the deities are worshipped (like Kaatteri, Ellai Amman, Saptha Kanyas....) in the villages. But, one can not deny Shiva worship. Siva was worshipped by ancient Indians. Kindly read this article.

IT is not any Hindus who chose to include only 6 faiths. That is by the British Historians and they only played the card of 'Discrimination' to divide India.

Kindly read 'Dheivathin Kural', please. Shan Matham was Sri.Adi Sankara's effort. Kindly don't give it to the British, please.

They were not discriminated but were only restricted just as a Foreigner is restricted in Kapaleeshwarar temple.

Do you really believe the above quoted message? Restriction is discrimination. I don't know why you are not seeing it.

Non believers do not have any business in the place of worship......

Kindly don't call Harijans as 'non-believers'. I do not know about you, but I am not qualified to judge one's belief or the lack of it. If you are qualified, kindly let me know how you are coming to this conclusion. (By the way, about Christians....One of my friend's elder brother watched us, youngsters making regular trips to Tirumala. He got curious, visited with his wife and Children; fell in love with it, started yearly pilgrimage to Tirumala with his family. His father was furious with me. By the way, my friend is a staunch Christian. So, I don't know about faith and belief).

I was not allowed in to the Dalith's Iyanar temple in my native place for the reason I was a women.

I don't think Dalits are involved in Iyanaar Poojas. In North Arcot Dist, Harijans mostly conduct poojas for Maari amman, Chelli Amman, Sivan (as a Linga form), Krsna and Venkatachalapathy. I knew many of them followed Purattaasi (புரட்டாசி) Saturdays fasting or at least restriction in eating. If you were restricted as a woman, so would be the restrictions for the women belonging to their women too. (But, I never heard about restriction for women. I know about restrictions for men in certain poojas....).

I just respect the tradition and do not make a big fuss about it as [COLOR=#DA7911 ! important][COLOR=#DA7911 ! important]discrimination[/COLOR][/COLOR]
. Please come out your 'period' mindset sir.

'Period' is not my mindset. I have seen too many caste based restrictions at various levels. Right...let's look at this closely, please. Only caste Brahmins are allowed in Sactum sanctorum; Other high castes like chettiars are allowed at the next level; bit lower castes stayed at the 'praharam' level; some castes can go only up to the 'flag post' (துவஜஸ்தம்பம்). Have you noticed some persons conducting pooja at the 'flag post' level? well, that's how far they were allowed. I know I can't enter inside the temple, I know I can't see the idol at close quarters, I know I have to ask my children not to enter further than the 'flag post', if I still make a pilgrimage to that temple, how would you judge about my belief and faith?

I believe in the prowess of Daliths and never has villified them in my posting. I am only suggesting that they should approach the society by building 'Bridge of Trust' with other communities. Their mood to alienate themselves from all the Hindus cannot be correct. As yo say, Hinduism has proved flexible in accommodating all. Why should then they should endeavor to malign its secular image?

Sow.Harini, I never suspect of you villifying anyone. Harijans were alienated for a long time. It is not a bad idea for others to go forward to invite the Harijans to take part in all our activities. You must have observed, when Harijans declare a mass conversion, they eventually convert to Budhhism, which is an off-shoot of Hinduism. Why do you think they attempt to malign Hiduism's secular image?

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

This is a nice link you had given http://www.hinduwebsite.com/siva/ancientforms.asp

Some also say that since the word Shiva is not found in Vedas, therefore Shiva is a pre-vedic and a non-vedic deity (debatable though). Interestingly Shiva worship was present in the IVC regions..

Also, Indra was confirming duties of mlecchas, robbers and dasyus in Mahabharat, because possibly at that time Indra was still king of gods (neither Shiva nor Vishnu was king of gods during the vedic period)...apparently during mahabharat, puranic (popular present day) gods (and their worship) were not yet created..

 

[RKB]

Discrepancy

Constitution of India is not about punishments. Untouchability is a crime against humanity and how can any Constitution guarantee it? Why a shudra cannot be proud of being a shudra just as I am proud as a Brahmin?

Discrimination is different from differentiation. The same people who portrayed differentiation as discrimination are now crying for caste based census! I am different and I have right under the Constitution to be different.

Amidst our heated argument I feel both of us arguing for the same without understanding each other.

Shri RKB,

You speak just like one another person who said he was proud to be a shudra and is not to be seen here these days.

Brahmins have not been guaranteed under the indian constitution to protect untouchability.

The are specific acts and laws that prohibit both, caste discrimination as well as untouchability.

And that is the reason why people like Batuprasad Sharma keep getting arrested.

IMO, the constitution needs to make the punishment a lot more stringent than just a few days or months in prison.

Regards.