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Reservation for Brahmins
- Thread starter Ganamukundhapriya
- Start date
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Hi Every1,
Sorry the previous post was incomplete....
To continue, first let me start by thanking my seniors (Sri Sangom and Smt.Harini)..while apologizing for a delayed response...due to work pressures...and my filial duties....
I am going to try and address the questions raised by both my seniors.
To both of you, I should make one thing very clear....I have never denied who or what I am not do I shirk from my responsibilities that arise from that. I am one of thousands of Brahmins
who was affected by the bitter pill of reservation....and trust me....that is a very bitter pill to swallow.....
As to the question of why I should pay for the mistakes of my seniors.....perhaps I should replace the words I and my with WE and OUR.....
The reason I say this is that many, definitely not all, of our forefathers, without understanding what the shastras or the scriptures said, in very narrow minded manner, did ill treat the BCs etc.
There can be no denying this.
Definitely amends have to be made. But my point, rather stand, is that reservation is definitely NOT the way to make amends. To my limited knowledge, Dr.Ambedkar wanted was to create an intellectual class from the BCs etc.
which will then help the remaining members of that society to take part in the mainstream society, by helping them to recognize their rights as human beings. My source for this is an article in ambedkar.org on this subject.
But this very same intellectual class, only distanced themselves from their communities, giving rise to Smt.Harini terms as vote bank politics.
To take my stand further, while reservation is NOT the way to make amends, it seems to have come to stay; and, as long as it is there, we Brahmins should definitely take advantage of it.
What I have tried to state in that post of mine is very elementary and rudimentary way of eradicating reservation...that is all...
Sangom-ji, if this argument appeared to you as a no-loss-no-win argument, then I sincerely apololgize for my choice of words. But one point where I do differ from what you have said sir, is
that I have always seen myself only as an Indian who is a Brahmin and not the other way round. As to your points on whether I do not enjoy the fruits of my forefathers punya etc....
I do not feel that this is the correct thread for that....perhaps we should discuss that in a separate thread....
This thread is only for whether or not Brahmins should have reservations and not for discussing who or what a Brahmin is or EVR's life history....sorry about the directness there...but should
we not stick to the thread topic.....?
With respects,
Sriraman
Sorry the previous post was incomplete....
To continue, first let me start by thanking my seniors (Sri Sangom and Smt.Harini)..while apologizing for a delayed response...due to work pressures...and my filial duties....
I am going to try and address the questions raised by both my seniors.
To both of you, I should make one thing very clear....I have never denied who or what I am not do I shirk from my responsibilities that arise from that. I am one of thousands of Brahmins
who was affected by the bitter pill of reservation....and trust me....that is a very bitter pill to swallow.....
As to the question of why I should pay for the mistakes of my seniors.....perhaps I should replace the words I and my with WE and OUR.....
The reason I say this is that many, definitely not all, of our forefathers, without understanding what the shastras or the scriptures said, in very narrow minded manner, did ill treat the BCs etc.
There can be no denying this.
Definitely amends have to be made. But my point, rather stand, is that reservation is definitely NOT the way to make amends. To my limited knowledge, Dr.Ambedkar wanted was to create an intellectual class from the BCs etc.
which will then help the remaining members of that society to take part in the mainstream society, by helping them to recognize their rights as human beings. My source for this is an article in ambedkar.org on this subject.
But this very same intellectual class, only distanced themselves from their communities, giving rise to Smt.Harini terms as vote bank politics.
To take my stand further, while reservation is NOT the way to make amends, it seems to have come to stay; and, as long as it is there, we Brahmins should definitely take advantage of it.
What I have tried to state in that post of mine is very elementary and rudimentary way of eradicating reservation...that is all...
Sangom-ji, if this argument appeared to you as a no-loss-no-win argument, then I sincerely apololgize for my choice of words. But one point where I do differ from what you have said sir, is
that I have always seen myself only as an Indian who is a Brahmin and not the other way round. As to your points on whether I do not enjoy the fruits of my forefathers punya etc....
I do not feel that this is the correct thread for that....perhaps we should discuss that in a separate thread....
This thread is only for whether or not Brahmins should have reservations and not for discussing who or what a Brahmin is or EVR's life history....sorry about the directness there...but should
we not stick to the thread topic.....?
With respects,
Sriraman
H
Harini
Guest
2000 years from now the historians will tell that one Mr.Periyar wanted Brahmins to be treated worser then a poisonous snake. Your twentieth generation will infer from it that Brahmins were discriminated all through the modern history. If history has to just alternate like this then our India will perpetually be whirlpool of calamities. The only path forward is to believe that all of Brahmins, Daliths etc had historically a good culture in India. We have to believe superiority of our culture today as a gift from our ancestors. It is easy to blame them for you don't have them now to defend themselves. Please don't ever quote Shastras etc proof of discrimination. Shastras etc are not only for Brahmins.
In a car the rear view mirror is small when it has a big windshield for looking ahead. Past is important but you cannot see the path ahead in the rear view mirror. Rear view or past is important only if you are going to deviate from a straight road. Brahmins are for ever in the history on a straight road.
The Daliths did not asked for a partition of India fearing discrimination. Such feelings got injected in to them only later by caste vote politics. This happened also at the cost of Brahmin's pride. But now only the Brahmins have not got Reservation for such cost incurred by them.
In a car the rear view mirror is small when it has a big windshield for looking ahead. Past is important but you cannot see the path ahead in the rear view mirror. Rear view or past is important only if you are going to deviate from a straight road. Brahmins are for ever in the history on a straight road.
The Daliths did not asked for a partition of India fearing discrimination. Such feelings got injected in to them only later by caste vote politics. This happened also at the cost of Brahmin's pride. But now only the Brahmins have not got Reservation for such cost incurred by them.
sangom
0
Shri Sriraman,
In post #417 I had written, "...Don't you enjoy the trickle-down benefits of the actions of your forefathers? Is it that you are just an unattached entity?" I think there is some ambiguity about the word "actions" by which I meant the assets and conveniences of life which your ancestors garnered for you family's comfortable living; I was not referring to their paapa and punya. If today we are what we are as a result of having been brought up in our respective families we surely have enjoyed the material benefits (shall I say "wealth") which each generation of our forefathers bequeathed to the next? May be there was someone in that chain who wasted and even ran away but we are talking of generalities and not individual cases. Even the mere fact that my parents - whether they were rich or not - fed, clothed and educated me till i was able to earn something makes me linked to the family and, similarly, my parents and so on. Don't you think so? Forget about paapa-punya, which as you say, is out of this thread.
sangom
0
Happy,
The truth is, brahmins themselves have "divorced" the vedas long long ago when the Uttaramimamsa came on the stage and they (brahmins) have fallen in love with the puranic world in an irretrievable way. How many brahmins know by heart even one veda compleely by heart and its meaning today? How many can be classed as "dwivedis" "trivedis" and "chaturvedis" in the real sense of the terms today? I know there are thousands of people with these surnames in N.India but most of them will not know anything more than "ramcharit manas".
So trying to teach vedas to the NBs is like giving uneatable rice of yesterday or earlier to them. Why should they consume it?
N
Nara
Guest
Dear Harini, Criticizing EVR is not a problem, I believe EVR himself would welcome it. He did not do much for Dalits is a criticism against him and that is fair point. But, what you accuse him of is just an urban legend. Do you have a valid citation for this statement? The reason I ask is I have been looking for a valid source for this legend and I have not come across one yet. I am still looking.
Cheers!
Dear Sangom Ji,
wow, is that how we build the egalitarian society in the 21st century??
Tell a aspiring student, your forefathers discriminated yesterday so you will be discriminated today?
Its also possible Ones father/grandfather worked hard to get a basic education or climbed the economic ladder by other legal means. Should we tell him your forefathers hardwork is your liability?
The social/economic model you are proposing will lead a "Race to the Bottom", were groups (caste, religion) find ways to show they are downtrodden to avail benefits.
thanks,
sangom
0
If one is adversely affected by the reservations (as you say you were) the impression I get is that you could not make it for being admitted to some course. That means you should have worked harder. Instead of that, just blaming the reservation system and finding ever so many lame reasons for your cause may not solve the problem. Suppose reservations are abolished, if someone just scores below the cut-off point will again feel bad; the only difference is there is no SC/ST who takes a seat. So, your case is not merit oriented but one of jealousy in some SC/ST getting admission.
I know of a very brilliant TB boy who could not get IIT (this is some years back). He was very disheartened but studied well and wrote the All India Test for admission to I.I.Sc., Bengaluru, scored high, got Computer Science, which was his favourite and is now doing well in the US. Really meritorious (as we TBs imagine ourselves to be) should do like that instead of grumbling about reservations IMO.
Even if the cut-off marks are lowered to 40 or 50 there will always be many people who will lose by a few marks. Asking that the benefit given to someone else (SC/ST/OBC here) be stopped in the hope that all seats will come to TBs, and vehemently arguing for that, is a futile exercize, I think.
Dear Sangom Ji,
When there are two students one with score 44 and another with score 88, to say the 44 goes in because he belongs to one group and the 88 goes home because he belongs to another group is not correct (this is a new form of discrimination). I have seen cases where they both have similar economic background.
Two wrongs does not make it right!!
thanks,
My reasoning is not based on jealousy or meritless-ness for my Student. I said the model (reservation based on past deeds) is not a great way to build the society.
When there are two students one with score 44 and another with score 88, to say the 44 goes in because he belongs to one group and the 88 goes home because he belongs to another group is not correct (this is a new form of discrimination). I have seen cases where they both have similar economic background.
Two wrongs does not make it right!!
I commend the perseverance of the student you mentioned. But we should not keep narrowing the window on this group to persevere or perish. IMO, that is not correct
I'm not trying to vouch for the merit-less. But please tell me what should merit be based on ?
thanks,
OP
OP
Foreign students, medical courses likely in IITs, IIT News - By Indiaedunews.net
Please check this link. The same also came in The Hindu with Kapil Sibals photo.
Please check this link. The same also came in The Hindu with Kapil Sibals photo.
OP
OP
Foreign students, medical courses likely in IITs, IIT News - By Indiaedunews.net
this is the link. I do not have any problem if 69to 72% for Reservation to communities + 25% for Foreign students can still give room for 5 -8 % for Brahmins.
this is the link. I do not have any problem if 69to 72% for Reservation to communities + 25% for Foreign students can still give room for 5 -8 % for Brahmins.
OP
OP
What resource is limited in our country? India in the past has been plundered in the past only for its resources. Even today it is being plundered of its knowledge resource.
We have abundant land to offer free to FDI investors.
Even a mega IPO gets record over subscription in record time and so we are not Capital starved.
With our population and education we have labour of all types to cater to global needs.
The 70% GDP contributed by MSMEs goes to prove our entrepreneurship resource.
Why we Brahmins alone fool ourself that India is without resource just because Brahmins don't find anything worth for its population from it?
We have abundant land to offer free to FDI investors.
Even a mega IPO gets record over subscription in record time and so we are not Capital starved.
With our population and education we have labour of all types to cater to global needs.
The 70% GDP contributed by MSMEs goes to prove our entrepreneurship resource.
Why we Brahmins alone fool ourself that India is without resource just because Brahmins don't find anything worth for its population from it?
OP
OP
Why should they be converted. Are you advocating teaching Vedas for forced conversion?
If Daliths are very keen to be called as Brahmans, let them now enumerate themselves as Brahmans in the census. Saint Ramanujam did some conversion purely in the spirit of Dharmashastra. It is just to prove that Brahmin ways of life is possible for all. It doesn't mean that the entire world can be converted to Brahmans.
I, today approve what Saint Thiruvalluvar say as only tillers of the soil to be living a worthy independent life. I also approve Brahmins taking to agriculture. But that doesn't mean that I expect Sankara Madam or ******* to enforce it for all Brahmins. I myself will not take up agriculture just because saint Thiruvalluvar ridiculed my way of life as inferior. I also believe that people of all communities will be as sensible as me and they will not indulge in any knee jerk reaction the moment somebody has said something.
If Daliths are very keen to be called as Brahmans, let them now enumerate themselves as Brahmans in the census. Saint Ramanujam did some conversion purely in the spirit of Dharmashastra. It is just to prove that Brahmin ways of life is possible for all. It doesn't mean that the entire world can be converted to Brahmans.
I, today approve what Saint Thiruvalluvar say as only tillers of the soil to be living a worthy independent life. I also approve Brahmins taking to agriculture. But that doesn't mean that I expect Sankara Madam or ******* to enforce it for all Brahmins. I myself will not take up agriculture just because saint Thiruvalluvar ridiculed my way of life as inferior. I also believe that people of all communities will be as sensible as me and they will not indulge in any knee jerk reaction the moment somebody has said something.
sangom
0
Firstly I don't perceive reservation as a "wrong"; it is "positive discrimination". A democratic government which aims at bringing equality has to first do something to bring up those groups which have been crushed for centuries and then only the government can (and should) think of egalitarianism in the sense that from the government's side it will treat all the citizens as equals. It is based on the very same principle that we have reservation for women, free education for girls, and many other governmental schemes.
I will give you one example. In a lower middle class (incidentally TB, which is not relevant to this, of course, still...) the eldest was a boy who had to undergo a serious surgery on the stomach (I don't know the exact condition which caused it but it was serious) and the baby was operated upon when it was 5 or 6 months old. For a very long time (even when he was in college) his digestion was too delicate and, as per the advice of the surgeon/doctors, special diet regimen had to be followed. The couple had one boy and then a girl thereafter, both normal. When all the three were kids, the apples and other fruits which were somewhat beyond the ability of the poor typist man (in a private concern) used to be strictly rationed to the other two and, even though they were children with no maturity, they could somehow sense the matter and used to keep quiet without asking for a larger share. Visitors who were aware of this, used to always bring the fruits and other items good for the eldest and the younger ones never asked for chocolate, the ice stick from the street vendor, etc., which would have been harmful to their elder brother.(Now of course that boy is an old normal man and is normally married and has a healthy son.)
Just like that household, a poor country like India will have to ration available educational and employment opportunities adn divert those in favour of the historically depressed classes.
I think we, as brahmins, should look at it this way. vAmana pushed mahAbali, a great, virtuous and able king, down into the pAtALa for the crime that Mahabali, an asura by birth, aspired for Indra's post (who should not have done so, since asuras as a class were forbidden from that because of their origin and earlier anti-deva acts done by their ancestors, and their individual merit). Now after several thousands of years, in this Kaliyuga, mahAvishnu has taken avatAr as "maNDal" - maNDalAvatAra - and with His 'cakrAyudha' transformed as the weapon known as 'reservation', He is pushing some others down to pAtALa in order that divine justice is done as per the dictum "paritrANAya sAdhUnAM vinASAyaca dushkr^tAm..." !!
As I have explained above merit will continue to be measured by different yardsticks for quite sometime to come and, till then, a brahmin or a FC student will have to aim at cent per cent and nothing less while the traditionally neglected will have a lower mark to cross.
What I wonder is how you and some others think that our legislators at the centre and the states as also our judges of High courts and the Supreme Court, have not percieved anything wrong with the system of reservation as such and differences, if any, are only the percentages, the groups included in the beneficiary list etc. Do you think the entire system has gone to dogs simply because some few TB students who just scraped through to the counter but missed it, have been harmes, according to your view? As I said in my previous post, such marginal candidates will be there in every scenario; but the real grouse is based on the SC/ST getting admission with a lower percentage, and that is positive discrimination.
sir,
i have immense respect for you.
but for the above post, i have only word -- hypocricy.
you very well know am not advocating conversion.
if a dalit chooses vedic education, he should be given the opportunity to pursue it....that's all.
and no orthodoxy can behave like batuprasad sharma in today's times...just nobody has the right to ask dalits to go back to old professions, irrespective of whether it is from the shastra-pov or not.
and as regards what Sri Ramanuja did, i leave it to Shri Nara to explain.
regards.
Dear Sir,
I certainly wud not like to equate reservations with 'justice' based on story-like events from a bygone era...
And wrt Mahabali we are indeed talking about a long bygone era. Please do take into consideration the folklore stories of the veddahs of mahaweli (mahabali) settlements in srilanka...
Yes true the Veddahs refer to the Yakshas (demons or asuras) as spirits that walked the earth ages ago; and themselves as the Yaksha descendents. However, i think they consider themselves to be the appeasers of such sprits; and do not consider themselves as "demons" (in the negative or 'demonic' sense). This is similar to the Kapuralas who consider themselve appeasers of the devas (or deva spirits); and not as devas themselves.
The Veddahs consider Skanda as a Yaksha too. Am doing a copy-paste from here: Veddas celebrate Kataragama wedding festival (please note that "Nae Yaku" here is also spelled Nayakka and "Kande Yaka" here is also called Kanda Nayaka or Kanda Yaksha):
"Sri Lanka's first people, the Veddas or Wannniyal-aetto ('forest-dwellers') as they call themselves, have lived in Lanka for so many thousands of years that they no longer recall how they arrived. Like other indigenous people of the Yaksa Gotra, they claim to be direct matrilineal descendants of their great mother-ancestor, Queen Kuveni of ancient days and even further back to remote prehistoric times when the Nae Yaku or great ancestral spirits walked upon the earth. They were the original wanni nayakas or Lords of Lanka's vast jungle interior.
Among the nae yaku or spiritual ancestors of the Wanniyal-aetto, the greatest is said to be Kande Yaka, the terrific Spirit of the Mountain who is respected by Sinhala and Tamil communities alike as Kanda Kumara or Murukan, the ever-playful Eternal Youth of Kataragama".
Generally, the tradition of appeasing yaksha spirits (yak-adura ritualism) is considered ancient, while appeasing deva spirits (bali edura ritualism) is considered later / younger (btw, the word 'edura' or "adura" is claimed to be a variant of "asura").
Also the word asura (demon) is not exactly treated negatively by ceylonese folklores..well, apparently according to the taittiriya brahmana, the breath (asu) of Prajapati became alive, and with that breath he created the Asuras. So asuras, like devas share a common origin..
But anyways, the Srilankan tradition goes this way:
The asuras (spirits) inflict terrible damage, and need to be appeased. However, there is another class of asuras superior to them called devas. These devas (also asura spirits) need to be appeased too, otherwise they also will inflict terrible damage.
The Srilanka tradition is comparable to the vedic tradition where asura and devas come from a common basis but split later. And the srilankan version is very closely comparable to the zoarashtrian religion , where asura retains its positive connotation.
According to Medhatithi, the word asura simply means 'one who did not get his share of soma'; so some consider asuras as "non-soma drinkers". And Yaska (the sanskrit grammarian) offers 2 explanations for the word asura - one, as those who were thrown out of their positions, and another, as those full of vigour and energy (Encylopedia of Hinduism, Vol I, p.78).
Btw, avani avittam is celebrated bcoz it is believed devas got back the vedas from the asuras (wonder if that is true or is it the other way round).
While you have mentioned the story of Mahabali from the puranic version, please do note the vedic / upanishadic (chandogya) version (supposedly this was the reason why devas and asuras split and began quarelling and according to some books (from google books), this was the reason why both asuras and devas kept fighting all thru the "vedic period" and why both claimed to be the true inheritors of vedas - and ofcourse we know that indra lost by the end of the vedic period - so what does that tell us...to me, am sorta getting some 'ideas' why the puranas came to be the way they were...): Eternal Stories from the Upanishads - Google Books
Anyways the chandogya upanishad gist is that Indra and Virochana went to Prajapati to find out nature of self. Virochana understood the body as atman, whereas Indra understood that the body is not atman and instead realised that atman is immortal.
Virochana (Virochana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) spread the teaching that the body is atman to a group; and the group which supported him remained the "asuras" - they started adoring and adorning the body (and even dead bodies with garlands). [Oral tradition from my end: one particular monk was of opinion that the purva mimansa originates from treating the body as self from this sort of vedic basis and therefore felt that purva miamnsa or karma kanda do not result in moksham].
And ofcourse the faction which supported Indra became "devas".
If asuras were not associated with brahmanas, then i wonder why indra killed asuras (brahmanas) like vritra, why ravana was called an asura and why wud narakasura (an asura) wud invite brahmins to kamarupa (according to kalika purana): Devadāsī: dancing damsel - Google Books
The Srilanka scenario to me holds some clues. The kapurala (bali adura ritualists) conducts rituals to appease Indra (the vedic asura), the planets, and so on. They also invoke Varuna; and generally their practices can be considered to be supportive of the deva-faction of asuras. The kapuralas are also associated with the devalays (temples) of Vishnu, Vibhishana, Natha (Shiva), Kannagi and so on.
The Yak adura, on the other hand, were predominantly connected with spells and rites to exorcise demons.
However, over time, the Kapuralas started doing exorcism rites; and yak aduras as a seperate sect somewhere nearly ceased to exist . Moreover the kapuralas consider themselves to be the descendents of Veddahs. So am likely to consider that the kapurala faction "took over" the veddahs, or came about as a breakaway faction from them.
Btw, this Vamana who sent Bali to Patala was not necessarily the Vamana of the Vishnu avatara. Vamana is also said by some to be Vinayaka (i think many of us say this almost everyday "...Vamana roopa Maheshwara putra...")...and i think Patala means Srilanka, Cambodia, Thailand, Indonesia (SE Asia in general).
In Bali, the Bali aga practice sky burials which is considered a vedic pracice by some commentators. Apparently due to the power of their chants (mantras), their dead bodies do not smell. Sometimes to imbibe the powers from a particular powerful man after his death, the body is cooked and eaten by the whole group. I cud not help comparing their practices to some Aghora versions of India, where to imbibe the powers of the dead body, the belief (which i learn from an oral tradition that you may consider hearsay) is to burn the deadbody with due chants and rub its ashes all over the body as a kappu protection.
Let alone tribes like Veddahs and Bali Agas who have lived relatively isolated lives...me thinks if generally one were to compare "descent" from devas and asuras, then today, imo, there is a deva and an asura in each one of us.
Today, many (or all) of us follow some asura beliefs, like adorning dead bodies with flowers and making markings on the body while alive, treating the body in certain taboo ways, etc (like purva mimansa teachings). And till date many of us follow the deva type beleifs also, in the form of philosophies like advaitha which make us realise that the atman is immutable, immortal and ofcourse is not the body (like uttara mimansa teachings perhaps).
So today i do not think anyone can claim to be inheritors of any legacy from asuras or devas (if at all these were "real beings" and not just spirits as the veddahs and kapuralas consider them to be).
And this is a very interesting explanation by the lokayatas: Discovering the Rigveda - Google Books (please read from page 105 to 138).
And this is more detailed info on the virochana-indra episode (i had read from page 950 to 1016): Encyclopaedia of Hinduism - Google Books
Regards.
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sangom
0
Dear HH,
Nor am I very much interested in doing so. But I thought some people may understand that positive discrimination is sometimes necessary, if we justify it on the analogy of the puranic stories.
The word "vAmana", of doubtful origin as per Monier williams' dictionary, has the primary meaning of "dwarf". Vinayaka is spoken of as vAmanarUpa in this sense only and not as the avatAr.
pAtALa could very well have been any country to the south, but, considering the fact that Keralites alone now look upon Mahabali as an adorable king, the possibility of some popular ruler of an indigenous tribe having been driven off to Srilanka by brahmins, is quite high. North Indians denote brahmins by their colloquial "bAmun".
There is enough evidence to show that the rigvedic people believed in a "life after death", with Yama being the first human who died and went to the other region. I, therefore, do not think that the pUrvameemAmsa taught that the body is Atman. In fact the concept of Atman is not well developed in the rigvEda and not also in much of YV, though some discussions in brihadAraNyakOpanishad do throw some basic thoughts about it. (I have written elsewhere how yAjnavalkya, faced with piercing question from Gargi, which he could not answer, curses her head to split and fall down!!
For all the brouhaha about Atman, realization, mOksha, liberation and all that, the body is a prerequisite and it has to be maintained clean, healthy and presentable unless one takes to roaming about in the wild like an animal. (BTW, every animal has its own way of getting its body cleaned; that is another matter but even they have to ensure this even though they roam in the jungles.)
Please do not be carried away by the pseudo-vedanta of some gurus who might have said that the first step in spiritual path is renouncing the attachment to one's body. Just as one would keep his rented premises clean even though he knows he has to vacate it one day when the owner asks him, we have to bestow attention to our body.
I do not think I said anything to this effect in my post; the only thing I said was that maNDal might be considered as an avatAr who did something for justice.
Thank you very much for the wealth of information given. I shall study those deeply.
Dear Sangom Ji,
"positive discrimination" that word sounds better. And you also told some stories to make it look correct.
Discrimination however you look at it leads to broken societies. I'm think manu and dharmashastras authors also conceived positive reasons to build a hierarchical society that many today cringe.
few state govt have lined up to give reservation for them. We can also quote similar examples at caste level.
Now the TBs can "suck his thumb" and try to get 100% or unite as a community and try to make a difference.
"positive discrimination" that word sounds better. And you also told some stories to make it look correct.
Even if we assume Reservation is all good, should it be based on race, place of birth, religion, caste, creed, color or Gender?
Discrimination however you look at it leads to broken societies. I'm think manu and dharmashastras authors also conceived positive reasons to build a hierarchical society that many today cringe.
You see, the Indian Muslims converted to Islam few centuries ago to Avoid Taxes or Avoid Persecution and enjoyed the fruits of it for few centuries. And today they are saying they are downtrodden as a community and forced state govt to give them reservation.
few state govt have lined up to give reservation for them. We can also quote similar examples at caste level.
Now the TBs can "suck his thumb" and try to get 100% or unite as a community and try to make a difference.
We live in a competitive globalized world, where new innovations will take us to the top or bottom. We should soon find a way to make merit alone the criteria. If free education is the solution, we should explore that option rather than be resigned.
And you want the esteemed politicians and judges to decide our future? I recently read a report (here) of how 50% of the CJI's are corrupt !!
No Sir, puranic stories does not ring a bell to me!!
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sangom
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Shri Suresoo,
The need for reservations for people based on caste, creed and gender (I think we have no reservation based on colour; so why include it?) has been necessitated because India has a large number of castes and creeds; women had been second class citizens till recently and perhaps even today. In truth, India has many weaknesses which make it unfit to be governed as "one country", though the clever British have bequeathed this gargantuan outfit which probably can be governed well only by a statesman like Lee Kuan Yew who shaped Singapore with his autocratic rule, and the present democratic set-up can only pull on like this.
If we had only a few groups it might not have been necessary to include so many castes, creeds etc., but, unfortunately, that is not the case.
Even Shanti Bhushan admits that 6 out of 16 CJIs were honest. Would at least one of them not have had even one occasion (one case) to record that reservation is a bad thing, if it is really so?
I find only the TBs of TN are so much against reservations; in other states the brahmins do not react so agitatedly. Is there any special reason for this, or, is it just the pain of TBs having lost their eminence of yore when brahmins could corner most opportunities for education and employment. Even the TVM AG's office used to be called "iyers' & iyengars' office" once upon a time!
OP
OP
Radhe Krishna...
I don't understand as to what productive purpose will be served by providing opportunity with vedas to the Daliths. Anyhow I am not against it. Let the Government that has given Reservation announce that the Daliths who have mastered vedas henceforth will chant it in every temple and will get paid for it. Let them also be paid for it for chanting in school prayers, office pujas etc. How can Brahmins give them opportunity?
I can give them opportunity to recite them during the programs I arrange in Sabhas but I cannot afford paying them. But what goods these experiments can deliver. This can only impoverish Daliths just as TBs.
Try suggesting this to US Government. Let them restrict issue of Visa for temple related works only to Daliths. But don't think that they will automatically get acceptance to perform in household rituals, homams etc of both TBs and NBs. Daliths have to slog for it. Only God can help them in such Saga just as he helped the identified one at Chidambaram.
I don't understand as to what productive purpose will be served by providing opportunity with vedas to the Daliths. Anyhow I am not against it. Let the Government that has given Reservation announce that the Daliths who have mastered vedas henceforth will chant it in every temple and will get paid for it. Let them also be paid for it for chanting in school prayers, office pujas etc. How can Brahmins give them opportunity?
I can give them opportunity to recite them during the programs I arrange in Sabhas but I cannot afford paying them. But what goods these experiments can deliver. This can only impoverish Daliths just as TBs.
Try suggesting this to US Government. Let them restrict issue of Visa for temple related works only to Daliths. But don't think that they will automatically get acceptance to perform in household rituals, homams etc of both TBs and NBs. Daliths have to slog for it. Only God can help them in such Saga just as he helped the identified one at Chidambaram.
OP
OP
This understanding also gives scope to believe that Manu could have considered Varnashrama as 'positive discrimination'. Remember it is the Brahmins who did not had any economic resource and so they were protected. Vedas certainly belong to all communities. Brahmins cannot claim as its custodians. But, if Brahmins established themselves in a productive occupation with vedas means that they did not had other livelihood.
If our Prime Minister says that majority of those involved in agriculture has to move out of the profession means that agriculture has become non viable for the mass involved in it. The same Prime Minister would have told that the agriculturist can henceforth perform the functions of traditional Brahmins if he felt if it is economically viable. If he tell that they have to migrate to IT sector means it is a threat to modern Brahmins who have established themselves with IT around the world. Why he says that they have to be rehabilitated in Manufacturing? Does it have any economic consideration or he feels agriculturist as not fit for IT? Is he discriminating , may be positively?
If our Prime Minister says that majority of those involved in agriculture has to move out of the profession means that agriculture has become non viable for the mass involved in it. The same Prime Minister would have told that the agriculturist can henceforth perform the functions of traditional Brahmins if he felt if it is economically viable. If he tell that they have to migrate to IT sector means it is a threat to modern Brahmins who have established themselves with IT around the world. Why he says that they have to be rehabilitated in Manufacturing? Does it have any economic consideration or he feels agriculturist as not fit for IT? Is he discriminating , may be positively?
Radhe Krishna Sri Ganamukundapriya Ji,
Perhaps you have not gone thru some old posts on this forum on this topic.
In other states, dalits are allowed to pursue vedic education. One example: TTD Vedapathsalas admit dalits into their schools. The prob, however, is with tamilnadu alone.
Am not sure if you will find more than a handful of dalits interested in vedic education at any point of time. They very well know the path to success is secular-education, materialism and so on.
However, to the dalits, their struggle appears to be only with the ideology. That is, the ideology of discrimination against them (wrt their social standing, denial of religiousity and so on) based on their birth.
If a few were to get into certain vedic schools, i think they basically want to convey to the society at large that
1) occupation of a boy cannot be fixed at birth based upon his father's occupation;
2) at birth no child is inferior.
3) that it is possible to change varna
And this does make a massive difference to those who are regularly discriminated against in myriad ways.
Btw, sir, perhaps that this struggle is not new or recent (it must have existed in the ancient past in a different way..).
Thankyou for the offer sir. But i do not think the dalits are looking forward to such offers.
Am basically tired of such comparisons. I suppose it is best we talk about the prob on hand instead of comparisons with US govt, Visas, and so on.
Regards.
OP
OP
Radhe Krishna,
Tamilnadu is step ahead and the Government here has passed GO for inducting Daliths who have passed purohith exams. But this is not the way to prove the point. Dr.B.R.Ambethkar did not opted this path. But Nandanar opted this path and got success.
Just identify the handful of the Daliths who are interested. I will make my first donation to build a temple for their purpose. Let them maintain it as per Ahama Saastra or by own method just like the Jains do. God will definitely reside at their place if they are sincere. People will flock to the place where the God is. Slowly that will effect transformation. But understand that it is not about the livelihood or pride of the Daliths as you made out in your previous posts. Change can come only at this rate.
It is only those who don't like such changes happening in this world demand for the impossible rate of change and picturise India and its heritage badly. No other race in this world has successfully experimented with Truth as that has happened in India by us. Avoid making comparison between states or faiths in this regard and do something positively to effect some change.
Tell me who has got power in this world to bring in such radical changes. Understand as to how much Mr.Obama has to digest for a mosque at Zero site. Only courts can sometime suggest sweeping changes. It ordered free distribution of food grains recently. But such orders practically only initiates discussions. Implementation seldom happen. The SC is going to do it again on 24th with Ayodhya issue. SC also can be made to do such things with Reservations for Brahmins.
Tamilnadu is step ahead and the Government here has passed GO for inducting Daliths who have passed purohith exams. But this is not the way to prove the point. Dr.B.R.Ambethkar did not opted this path. But Nandanar opted this path and got success.
Just identify the handful of the Daliths who are interested. I will make my first donation to build a temple for their purpose. Let them maintain it as per Ahama Saastra or by own method just like the Jains do. God will definitely reside at their place if they are sincere. People will flock to the place where the God is. Slowly that will effect transformation. But understand that it is not about the livelihood or pride of the Daliths as you made out in your previous posts. Change can come only at this rate.
It is only those who don't like such changes happening in this world demand for the impossible rate of change and picturise India and its heritage badly. No other race in this world has successfully experimented with Truth as that has happened in India by us. Avoid making comparison between states or faiths in this regard and do something positively to effect some change.
Tell me who has got power in this world to bring in such radical changes. Understand as to how much Mr.Obama has to digest for a mosque at Zero site. Only courts can sometime suggest sweeping changes. It ordered free distribution of food grains recently. But such orders practically only initiates discussions. Implementation seldom happen. The SC is going to do it again on 24th with Ayodhya issue. SC also can be made to do such things with Reservations for Brahmins.
Radhe Krishna Sri Ganamukundapriya Ji,
The DMK government is popular exactly because it has been inducting dalits into purohitam training.
If only brahmanical institutions had done the same thing before independece, anti-brahmanism wud not have been born in the first place..there wud be no EVR, no DMK, and no waste of 60 years of independece in useless caste issues. We cud have even caught up with China wrt development.
On my part, am not inclined to think the dalits are out to prove something. If that be the yardstick, then it is rather apparent what the orthodoxy was trying to prove all this while.
Anyways, whatever you say abt Nandanar, building temples, etc as your views are all nice to listen now. But the dalits do not need it.
The 'dalits' have very well found out what is the way to social equality.
Regards.
The DMK government is popular exactly because it has been inducting dalits into purohitam training.
If only brahmanical institutions had done the same thing before independece, anti-brahmanism wud not have been born in the first place..there wud be no EVR, no DMK, and no waste of 60 years of independece in useless caste issues. We cud have even caught up with China wrt development.
On my part, am not inclined to think the dalits are out to prove something. If that be the yardstick, then it is rather apparent what the orthodoxy was trying to prove all this while.
Anyways, whatever you say abt Nandanar, building temples, etc as your views are all nice to listen now. But the dalits do not need it.
The 'dalits' have very well found out what is the way to social equality.
Regards.
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