Reservation for Brahmins

[kunjuppu]

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There was an Editorial page article in yesterday's Hindu that accused Brahmins for the cause of Untouchability. One of my co Trustees immediately drafted the following letter to the Editor condemning the tone of the article for Brahmins. The Editor has not published the letter for today. But I think that this forum can be used for analyzing it.


[FONT=&quot]Respected sir,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The bold gesture of the Brahmins of the Karnataka in recent walkabout of Basavananda Maadara Channaiah Swamiji needs appreciation. Instead the article (page 12 on 20.09.2010) by ‘Untouchability – a sin and crime’ by Mr.M.S.Prabhakara mischievously portrays this as Brahmins atoning for their sin committed in the past. Not only in Karnataka, even in Tamilnadu, are the Brahmins being wrongly portrayed as the community that perpetrated untouchability. Right from leaders like E.V.Ramaswamy Naicker, rationalist leaders of this land find it convenient to scapegoat voiceless Brahmin community for the atrocities of the other powerful communities. In contrast it is the Brahmin communities who come out with bold gestures against such crimes such as this one that happened in Karnataka.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Historically Brahmins also were a community like Daliths bound to follow the social dictates of the other powerful communities. Therefore when the patrons of the temples expected the Brahmins to prevent Harijans from entering the temple, they simply enforced it. Even today they enforce such measures like preventing foreigners from entering the Moolasthanam in temples. Learned as the Brahmins traditionally are, they also documented such practices in the past. Now to blame Brahmins for everything saying that they wrote the text is mischievous. Brahmins never were a powerful community for they were neither rulers or a rich merchants all through their history. There is no evidence in the history to prove them as cunning.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Brahmins in South, particularly in Tamilnadu, are a beleaguered community now. They also deserve support from the rest, such as ‘Reservation and Quota’ for practicing with pride their duties. The real criminals and sinners for the evil of 'Untouchability' still remain untouchable to the iron hands. Therefore I request media, such as The Hindu, to refrain from such mudslinging on Brahmin community. Publishing this letter will help putting things in proper perspective.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Regards,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
(I think the English managed to eradicate this sin by removing it from the Dictionary!!)

gana,

i am very surprised at the way you look at this article.

i had this article quoted in another post, as a sign, that finally, some brahmin mutt heads, were acting like heads, rather than mutts.

we need more of active brahmin participation to include the dalits and other castes into the formalities of our way of life. this is not a time for brahmins to bitch, but stoop and bend, so that we can together with the help of all castes, conquer to shed the curse of casteism once and forever.

hope you give some time to think it over and reform. thanks.

 

[sangom]

gana,

i am very surprised at the way you look at this article.

i had this article quoted in another post, as a sign, that finally, some brahmin mutt heads, were acting like heads, rather than mutts.

we need more of active brahmin participation to include the dalits and other castes into the formalities of our way of life. this is not a time for brahmins to bitch, but stoop and bend, so that we can together with the help of all castes, conquer to shed the curse of casteism once and forever.

hope you give some time to think it over and reform. thanks.

Shri Kunjuppu,

I suppose Shri Ganamukundhapriya is a young person and has been convinced by the "brahmins are innocent" line of argument, which, we found voiced by many not-so-young members also. For a person like me who is 70 years and had seen life before Independence at least as a child and witnessed the prestige and privileges enjoyed by brahmins in the society, the slow deterioration that happened, particularly with the Communist movement becoming popular in Kerala, and the subsequent decline in fortunes of brahmins - not only in Kerala/TN but also elsewhere during my transfers to various states, it is undeniably true that the brahmins were at the root of the caste system being imposed and projecting themselves as the best of all the castes. It is very difficult to imagine the kshatriyas and/or vaisyas making all the caste rules and enthroning the brahmin above their head; they were not so naive.

Having said that, I feel any amount of publicity gestures like the one we are currently discussing (which I feel is at best a cheap publicity gimmick and no more), will not at all help erase the caste-divide; on the contrary, it will only make the brahmins look like poor caricatures in the eyes of the Dalit public.

What is required is "real" integration - inter-marriage and inter-dining, etc. - which can come only very very slowly given the mindset of people. But you will have seen from the thread regarding inter-caste marriage, how open our people are for such a step. When it comes to that point, they feel as though there is/was some very great and invaluable thing called "our culture and heritage" which is distinct and superior to those of the Dalits. The caste feeling will disappear only when all of us embrace a unified "hindu culture and heritage" instead of trying to preserve those of individual castes/sub-castes/ regions etc., I think and that is far far away!

 

[kunjuppu]

Shri Kunjuppu,

I suppose Shri Ganamukundhapriya is a young person and has been convinced by the "brahmins are innocent" line of argument, which, we found voiced by many not-so-young members also. For a person like me who is 70 years and had seen life before Independence at least as a child and witnessed the prestige and privileges enjoyed by brahmins in the society, the slow deterioration that happened, particularly with the Communist movement becoming popular in Kerala, and the subsequent decline in fortunes of brahmins - not only in Kerala/TN but also elsewhere during my transfers to various states, it is undeniably true that the brahmins were at the root of the caste system being imposed and projecting themselves as the best of all the castes. It is very difficult to imagine the kshatriyas and/or vaisyas making all the caste rules and enthroning the brahmin above their head; they were not so naive.

Having said that, I feel any amount of publicity gestures like the one we are currently discussing (which I feel is at best a cheap publicity gimmick and no more), will not at all help erase the caste-divide; on the contrary, it will only make the brahmins look like poor caricatures in the eyes of the Dalit public.

What is required is "real" integration - inter-marriage and inter-dining, etc. - which can come only very very slowly given the mindset of people. But you will have seen from the thread regarding inter-caste marriage, how open our people are for such a step. When it comes to that point, they feel as though there is/was some very great and invaluable thing called "our culture and heritage" which is distinct and superior to those of the Dalits. The caste feeling will disappear only when all of us embrace a unified "hindu culture and heritage" instead of trying to preserve those of individual castes/sub-castes/ regions etc., I think and that is far far away!

thaththaasthu !!!!!!

 

[suresoo]

Dear Sangom Ji,

For a person like me who is 70 years and had seen life before Independence at least as a child and witnessed the prestige and privileges enjoyed by brahmins in the society, the slow deterioration that happened, particularly with the Communist movement becoming popular in Kerala, and the subsequent decline in fortunes of brahmins - not only in Kerala/TN but also elsewhere during my transfers to various states, it is undeniably true that the brahmins were at the root of the caste system being imposed and projecting themselves as the best of all the castes. It is very difficult to imagine the kshatriyas and/or vaisyas making all the caste rules and enthroning the brahmin above their head; they were not so naive.

I guess this is where our fundamental difference is.....
It may be true that Brahmins in your generations and past might have discriminated. And your generation may feel responsible and willing to support "Reverse Discrimination" to balance out the ledger on deeds.

But a Young Brahmin, who has not participated in any discrimination (and has been friends with Dalits/Muslims with no ill will) cannot take the "Reverse Discrimination" that you support.

That is why we feel "Reverse Discrimination" will also lead to broken society and is not the right way to uplift downtrodden, Not because we do not like the dalits.

thanks,

 

[Raghy]

Respectable members,

Greetings. This thread has seen 50 pages and over 500 posts. We have not agreed upon any solution or action plan yet. The caste brahmin community should understand one simple social rule - any previleges lost would be lost for ever. This community today stands stigmatised. Caste based reservation system, since it is flawed, has not provided equitable benefits to poor and under previleged persons, caste brahmins and NBs alike in villages and small towns. Caste based system is nothing but a social experiment; if 5 percentage (for argument sake) of the population suffers, academics possibly would shurg their shoulders and move on. A timy minority would not be noticed by the Government machinary; would be ignored by the politicians due to the lack of vote bank value.

Sri.Nara expressed his opinions like....

No TB with half-way decent marks in +2 has failed to make it. They may have to go through more hoops than a Dalit, more expense than an MBC, but with the cultural assets forcibly extracted from the Dalits over generations that they continue to unabashedly enjoy and benefit from, they do manage quite splendidly.

.
Possibly Sri.Nara has many articles to prove his point on percentage basis. But for me, one student goes home empty handed, whether it is a caste brahmin or NB or a dalit is too many. Truth is, most of us know at least one affected student. Caste based reservation system is not eradicating caste system in anyway; it only increses the hold on the caste identity. The whole thing is lopsided which plays havoc to selected youngsters.

Caste brahmins seem to be too naive to hope to get in the reservation stream. Personally I don't think it can ever happen. Caste brahmins have to weigh their options. If not today, they have to do it one day in the future. One member suggested going to the court as an option. In my humble opinion it may not be a successful option. Even the Supreme Court ruling regarding sharing Cauvery river water is not implemented yet. Judgement was made in February, 2007. More can be read here.

I wish to present some of the options come to my mind. The forum may meditate on these options and add more options to the list, please.

1. Do nothing. Just plod along accepting the caste based reservation system and hope for the best.

2. Accept everything as the 'poorva janma karma' and get a consolation from that. Some of the caste brahmins also may like to accept this as a punishment for the alleged deeds of his/her forefather's act of discrimination.

3. Appeal to the politicians in the Government, pleading for changes. It is a democratic process.

4. For the next option, I am posting a short video. You may or may not want to watch it. Kindly listen to the guy in the yellow shirt from 2;26 to the end, please.

YouTube - Thalappavu Movie Dialogue

(Translation of that portion is as follows ....." Everything is going topsy-turvy, Sir, a corrupt police, government employees who demand (as their right) bribes, a judiciary which slowly moves into the gray area where its bonafides are suspect; the country is moving towards anarchy.

Now does it not strike even a non-political person like you, Sir, that a progress (movement) like the one we started (created) was indispensable for this country?

Only a people who can react, will be capable of creating a sound government (administration); what is needed is not complaints against violations of law; those should be questioned; revolt against those, for the sake of (rebuilding) a society which is in its death-rattle. One must be ready to die if necessary, must be prepared to kill if it becomes unavoidable.

Inquilab Zindabad !! ").

5. There is one more option. Join the dalits. Mingle with them completely. Mingle with NBs who are interested. If we are worried about losing 'brahmanical values', such values can be taught to the new found friends and associates so that more people would end up cherishing the brahmanical values. In this association, within one or two generations, caste based reservation system would seen as an insult to the society (which is an insult to the society at present too, in my opinion) would be thrown out in the rubbish bin.

I request the members to think of more options, please. Also, I request the members feed back, please. Thanks.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom Ji,

I guess this is where our fundamental difference is.....
It may be true that Brahmins in your generations and past might have discriminated. And your generation may feel responsible and willing to support "Reverse Discrimination" to balance out the ledger on deeds.

But a Young Brahmin, who has not participated in any discrimination (and has been friends with Dalits/Muslims with no ill will) cannot take the "Reverse Discrimination" that you support.

That is why we feel "Reverse Discrimination" will also lead to broken society and is not the right way to uplift downtrodden, Not because we do not like the dalits.

thanks,

Dear Suresoo,

I cannot say whether you grew up in circumstances in which there was absolutely no indication of inequality between a brahmin and a dalit (pl. note I am referring to a dalit, sc/st not to any non-brahmin in general). What I would refer to as the acid test is to honestly recollect whether a dalit or sc/st would have been treated exactly like another brahmin friend (eating together, allowing him to participate in pujas and other rituals in your home, also in considering marriage of eligible boys/girls in your house with members of the friend's family, etc.) in your house if he visited your house.

If so, yours will be one of the rare cases of exception. (Other members can comment on this aspect.) But the very fact that even today, there are visible manifestations of the brahmin-dalit or brahmin-sc/st divide not only in TN but also in several other areas, it should be evident even for persons like you that there is still something of the past discrimination which needs to be corrected. The reverse or, more acceptably, positive discrimination has been found to be the only feasible remedy at this stage (not by me, but by the policy and law makers and this has been endorsed by the judiciary as well).

Since you say you are a brahmin "who has not participated in any discrimination (and has been friends with Dalits/Muslims with no ill will)" seem to claim that there are many like you, I would be glad to know how many brahmin households will agree to allow a totti, paraiyan etc.,(clean and well-dressed) into the kitchen or pooja room and do not feel bad about it. We may do that now out of compulsion when some government official or policeman comes with authority to search our house; I am not referring to such exigencies. Incidentally, during my primary school days I had also friends from the low castes, christians, etc., in the school but we had to go straight to the pond in the house wash our body (head bath was not insisted for fear of children catching cold) after throwing all the school clothes in the verandah outside home and then only enter the house. Hence, as far as the friendship without any ill-will part is concerned, I and many in my generation also will qualify!

 

[Nara]

....It may be true that Brahmins in your generations and past might have discriminated. And your generation may feel responsible and willing to support "Reverse Discrimination" to balance out the ledger on deeds.

There are several problems with this statement, (i) crushing discrimination is faced by Dalits not just in the previous generation, but for generations as far back as one could imagine, (ii) the oppression still continues to this day, and (iii) even in my generation only a handful of people think progressively, most are reactionary to the core.

It is easy to say the present day Brahmins do not discriminate, and believe it to be so as well. But, the very fact someone thinks of himself/herself as a Brahmin belies this claim. Even if the government counts one as a Brahmin for some political purposes, he/she need not oblige in all walks of life. The mere suggestion of icm among veggies was bitterly opposed -- a clear sign of discriminatory thinking.

...But a Young Brahmin, who has not participated in any discrimination (and has been friends with Dalits/Muslims with no ill will) cannot take the "Reverse Discrimination" that you support.

That is why we feel "Reverse Discrimination" will also lead to broken society and is not the right way to uplift downtrodden, Not because we do not like the dalits.

The mere fact he is identified as a "Brahmin" boy makes him a participant in a system that brutally oppressed and continues to oppress a section of the society. Allocating a bigger share of the limited resources available to the long oppressed section is a public good which benefits everyone.

When resources are limited, a society, through democratic process, gets to decide how that resource will be allocated. In the case of reservation, it has both political and judicial support.

A poor Brahmin has the luxury to dream of better days through education. Even if the child is only half-way smart, great emphasis gets placed on his/her education. They have friends and/or relatives in high places to offer a helping hand.

On the other hand, due to long held prejudices, a Dalit family puts less emphasis on education than a poor Brahmin family. An average Dalit family is an abjectly poor family and all they can think of is send their children to the fields to work, not to school to get educated. Education for them is an expensive proposition. Even if the Dalit boy/girl is smart, the immediate economic compulsions makes higher education not an economically viable option. Just a couple of months ago there was an article in The Hindu that I cited in a different thread about a Dalit boy who got admission to MBBS through open quota and was not going to enroll due to loss of income for the family.

I don't ill-treat Dalits, so they must not given any assistance to overcome the almost insurmountable odds they face is just feeble.

Cheers!

 

[Ganamukundhapriya]

I feel myself young in my post retirement life. Kunjuppuji. I know that you would have seen ladies folk in your house toiling the maid in your house. Perhaps you would have witnessed your grandfather demanding work from farm laborers. Nothing of that sort has died even today.

Possibility is that you would also would be troubled to take bath after the barber has finished his work on your head. The reason given to it would not have appealed to you for you might be playing with the barber's son in the street the very next hour. Your son is not being troubled by you like this today and so you think you have made a generation of change as a reformist.

May be at school your friend might have been punished by the teacher for not performing and that teacher may be doing it by insulting the community of your friend. It is illegal today but not then.

But I lived in a family of about 50 in Mylapore then. Some of the ladies in my house are maids/help at neighborhood houses. Men at my house are cooks predominantly but we also had one of our eldest of family as very popular Harikatha exponent. We have disintegrated as several nucleus families today, I have also witnessed social humiliation of many in my family.

At school when others utter vulgar words, I use to insult them only calling them by their community name. They also chided me for my community. Most of them still live around here and none rouse any grudge.

I hope you would remember seeing the movie "Gone with the wind". Old customs are something accepted by the people at that part of the time. When new era dawns, new customs come along with it. Why should we think that the one gone with the wind should be a bad one. I never allowed my kids to go to movies. I also was strictly against allowing any tamil magazines in to my house. But today I myself watch all the movies in all the channels in TV with my grandchildren.

In one of the seminar that I went recently in an autonomous University, one of my co-speaker from police was explaining to the students about 'Whistle Blowers' to encourage students to come to police with devious things that they come across. One student asked him as to whether he had done any Whistle Blowing by himself. This question ripped him off. My question to you is, have you done any violent discrimination of daliths in your life? If you have not done means, you should accept that no discrimination existed. If you say that you did not do when all other in your family did this and that means... you are exaggerating. If you say that your family did nothing but the other Brahmin families did that and this means, you are not telling the truth.

Caste system is our culture and I do not understand as to why it should be rooted out. Our beauty in diversity is appreciated by people of all the community. Utopian vision of all to be treated as Brahmin to eradicate caste system will not hold any water with any other community member. May be the Christians and Muslims will say that they will be happy if it happens to Hinduism. But these religions will not permit you to alter their caste system.

The truth today is that we the people let many Go by the wind for good. Communist party or Dravidian party do not have their business as claiming credit for the change that we bring for ourselves. When we change from better to best, these people will say that we are bad yesterday and therefore cannot be good today. This is the politics of Divide and Rule.

Shri Kunjuppu,

I suppose Shri Ganamukundhapriya is a young person and has been convinced by the "brahmins are innocent" line of argument, which, we found voiced by many not-so-young members also. For a person like me who is 70 years and had seen life before Independence at least as a child and witnessed the prestige and privileges enjoyed by brahmins in the society, the slow deterioration that happened, particularly with the Communist movement becoming popular in Kerala, and the subsequent decline in fortunes of brahmins - not only in Kerala/TN but also elsewhere during my transfers to various states, it is undeniably true that the brahmins were at the root of the caste system being imposed and projecting themselves as the best of all the castes. It is very difficult to imagine the kshatriyas and/or vaisyas making all the caste rules and enthroning the brahmin above their head; they were not so naive.

The problem to Brahmins lie only within Brahmins. They only feel elated in falsely claiming as to how their forefathers bossed inhumanly the Daliths. All these discussions are only to change our understanding of ourselves. If we are clear about ourselves, everything else will come automatically.

Having said that, I feel any amount of publicity gestures like the one we are currently discussing (which I feel is at best a cheap publicity gimmick and no more), will not at all help erase the caste-divide; on the contrary, it will only make the brahmins look like poor caricatures in the eyes of the Dalit public.

What is required is "real" integration - inter-marriage and inter-dining, etc. - which can come only very very slowly given the mindset of people. But you will have seen from the thread regarding inter-caste marriage, how open our people are for such a step. When it comes to that point, they feel as though there is/was some very great and invaluable thing called "our culture and heritage" which is distinct and superior to those of the Dalits. The caste feeling will disappear only when all of us embrace a unified "hindu culture and heritage" instead of trying to preserve those of individual castes/sub-castes/ regions etc., I think and that is far far away!

 

[suresoo]

Dear Sangom Ji,
I also feel the hurt when You talk about discrimination that happened or still happens in some neighborhoods.

I cannot say whether you grew up in circumstances in which there was absolutely no indication of inequality between a brahmin and a dalit (pl. note I am referring to a dalit, sc/st not to any non-brahmin in general). What I would refer to as the acid test is to honestly recollect whether a dalit or sc/st would have been treated exactly like another brahmin friend (eating together, allowing him to participate in pujas and other rituals in your home, also in considering marriage of eligible boys/girls in your house with members of the friend's family, etc.) in your house if he visited your house.

I also live in the same world you had described.
But we are talking about two different things. In every humans life there is a Public and private life.

In ones Private life what he does, where he eats (with whom), who he wants to marry (who he invites to the marriage) etc etc is his personal choice. I do not think an government or social group should dictate that.

Its ones public life we are debating about here. When we meet in public (in schools, colleges, institutions etc) should we discriminate (direct or reverse) or not is the question (i assume).

If an upper caste says dalits should not use the pond to fetch water, we should look at it as Law and Order Problem and take suitable action.
If an dalit does not have the means to goto school. Government / NGO's can provide him the means to goto school. The Rich man pays taxes for such expenses and hence credits for his past mis-deeds.

In the society you are trying to build, a person who had never crossed 50% marks would end up being a Heart surgeon. When he opens up a patient for heart surgery, he may not know 50% of the parts in there (Just a Joke, I hope you see that with humor).
Wait, i'm not saying dalits are not good surgeons. I'm only saying the system you support leads a "Race to the Bottom".

People today are spending more time identifying themselves as downtrodden rather than climb the ladder filled with struggles.
When a student knows he only needs 45% to cross the line, he will only put effort to get 50%. Now, you may quote some stories as an exception to this rule, but these are just exceptions and not generalities.

thanks,

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom Ji,
I also feel the hurt when You talk about discrimination that happened or still happens in some neighborhoods.



I also live in the same world you had described.
But we are talking about two different things. In every humans life there is a Public and private life.

In ones Private life what he does, where he eats (with whom), who he wants to marry (who he invites to the marriage) etc etc is his personal choice. I do not think an government or social group should dictate that.

Its ones public life we are debating about here. When we meet in public (in schools, colleges, institutions etc) should we discriminate (direct or reverse) or not is the question (i assume).

According to me the discrimination based on caste reflects ultimately in our social life which includes what you choose to label as private life; for me "private life" means my intimate life with my wife and certain very personal matters/worries and thoughts including family finances. All others will come under "public life" particularly since, in almost all those items like whom to eat with, person from which caste to be considered for marriage (not whom one actually wants to marry from all those possible choices), persons from which castes/groups who should/could be invited for marriage (again not about selecting individuals/families to be invited from each group, since, obviously nobody can invite an infinite number of people) you will be prepared/willing to approve some castes/groups but not some others. You have either confused the issue or are deliberately trying to mix the two with a clever labeling of private and public life. I hope I have made my points clear.

If an upper caste says dalits should not use the pond to fetch water, we should look at it as Law and Order Problem and take suitable action.
If an dalit does not have the means to goto school. Government / NGO's can provide him the means to goto school. The Rich man pays taxes for such expenses and hence credits for his past mis-deeds.
In the society you are trying to build, a person who had never crossed 50% marks would end up being a Heart surgeon. When he opens up a patient for heart surgery, he may not know 50% of the parts in there (Just a Joke, I hope you see that with humor).
Wait, i'm not saying dalits are not good surgeons. I'm only saying the system you support leads a "Race to the Bottom".

Here again there is confusion about basics. We are not talking about the rich and the dalit, are we? So, what is the point in bringing that extraneous point, unless you want it as a strawman?

Since educational opportunities themselves are limited and the ability of the government also is not infinite, it will be necessary and unavoidable, to set apart some portion thereof so that the dalits and other groups who deserve a "positive discrimination" will get at least those number of opportunities. However hoarse people may cry and try various arguments, it is what appeals to the ordinary mind and I also feel it is the right course of action at present.

Many in this forum have been elaborating about the undesirable fall-outs of the reservation system; even in your post under reply, you refer to the "race to the bottom" effect (I suppose you are afraid that every one will try/become a dalit or sc/st eventually, except the brahmins on account of this race, am I right?), and "killer doctors/surgeons" populating the entire country. In any system like that of the reservations, some undesirable trends are bound to be there and we cannot cut off the neck to cure the cold. In allopathy very medicine has some side-effects; do we therefore clamour for abolishing these drugs?

People today are spending more time identifying themselves as downtrodden rather than climb the ladder filled with struggles.
When a student knows he only needs 45% to cross the line, he will only put effort to get 50%. Now, you may quote some stories as an exception to this rule, but these are just exceptions and not generalities.

thanks,

I need not quote any story but this 45 percent will increase with time and more people coming through the reservation queue. All that the TBs seem to be having is the gripe against their having lost the undeserving eminence they enjoyed for some decades under the British rule and for one or two decades after Independence too. There is no other justification to say that the reservations system is wrong or bad for the country (not to TBs).

 

[sangom]

I feel myself young in my post retirement life. Kunjuppuji. I know that you would have seen ladies folk in your house toiling the maid in your house. Perhaps you would have witnessed your grandfather demanding work from farm laborers. Nothing of that sort has died even today.

Shri Gana,

I am not sure whether you really wanted to address your post to Kunjuppu, but since you quote my post to him I thought a response from me may not be out of place. If it is, please excuse me.

The two items you cite have practically vanished in Kerala and also TN. I know from first hand accounts as to how servant maids are (to be) treated now in Chennai city and I have also some idea as to how the house maids are in Tirunelveli, Nagercoil and Tiruppatisaram- a small agraharam near Nagercoil; my relatives are there in all these places and I have personally seen how things are. My father-in-law had agricultural lands (hereditorily obtained) in TN and I have seen how difficult it was to manage those; he had great difficulty selling those lands because " the land for the tiller" concept discouraged prospective buyers for a long time, since the actual cultivation was done by one family for generations and they claimed title to the lands. So the scenarios you describe are probably not there now; they might have existed in the olden days.

Possibility is that you would also would be troubled to take bath after the barber has finished his work on your head. The reason given to it would not have appealed to you for you might be playing with the barber's son in the street the very next hour. Your son is not being troubled by you like this today and so you think you have made a generation of change as a reformist.

The need to clean your head after a haircut is recognised and followed even today by many people including my sons who are abroad; they come home after the haircut wash at least their head and face, change clothes although there is absolutely no compulsion on them to do anything. In my younger days, of course, the theory and practice differed. But I feel it was so irritating with all that hair pieces on your body, that even a kid like me who hated taking bath usually, was only too willing to bathe; hence the requirement did not raise any moral doubts in me at any time.

May be at school your friend might have been punished by the teacher for not performing and that teacher may be doing it by insulting the community of your friend. It is illegal today but not then.

But I lived in a family of about 50 in Mylapore then. Some of the ladies in my house are maids/help at neighborhood houses. Men at my house are cooks predominantly but we also had one of our eldest of family as very popular Harikatha exponent. We have disintegrated as several nucleus families today, I have also witnessed social humiliation of many in my family.

At school when others utter vulgar words, I use to insult them only calling them by their community name. They also chided me for my community. Most of them still live around here and none rouse any grudge.

Fortunately or unfortunately, in Kerala I have never seen any teacher chiding a student by calling his caste; the usual scolding was தெம்மாடிகளே, which means goondas or disobedient fellows and the cane was the most used and effective instrument!

NB children used to vent their ire on us by calling us பட்டரே, சாம்பார் குடியா, and we used to call back மீன் தின்னி, and then it used to end in fisticuffs till one was routed or some teacher happened to notice. That there is no grouse between the school mates on account of all those happenings now is the general trend of the world and I think there is no relevance in making all these points by you.

I hope you would remember seeing the movie "Gone with the wind". Old customs are something accepted by the people at that part of the time. When new era dawns, new customs come along with it. Why should we think that the one gone with the wind should be a bad one. I never allowed my kids to go to movies. I also was strictly against allowing any tamil magazines in to my house. But today I myself watch all the movies in all the channels in TV with my grandchildren.

In one of the seminar that I went recently in an autonomous University, one of my co-speaker from police was explaining to the students about 'Whistle Blowers' to encourage students to come to police with devious things that they come across. One student asked him as to whether he had done any Whistle Blowing by himself. This question ripped him off. My question to you is, have you done any violent discrimination of daliths in your life? If you have not done means, you should accept that no discrimination existed. If you say that you did not do when all other in your family did this and that means... you are exaggerating. If you say that your family did nothing but the other Brahmin families did that and this means, you are not telling the truth.

That is a very fine and clever argument Sir, and it could have very well been implemented if you were the emperor (EkacchtrAdhipati) of India that is Bharat; but unfortunately the government is chosen (may be with a faulty but still valid and universally accepted system of elections) by the people and the perception of the government is not based on individual affidavits from you or Shri Suresoo or some more people like you two. The Government (and people like me) are convinced that irrespective of some people not having done any discrimination against any dalit, there is a case for positive discrimination for empowering the Dalits.

Since you seem to have a water-tight argument I would like you to test this in a court of law in order to find out how far it will be valid under the law.

Caste system is our culture and I do not understand as to why it should be rooted out. Our beauty in diversity is appreciated by people of all the community. Utopian vision of all to be treated as Brahmin to eradicate caste system will not hold any water with any other community member. May be the Christians and Muslims will say that they will be happy if it happens to Hinduism. But these religions will not permit you to alter their caste system.

The truth today is that we the people let many Go by the wind for good. Communist party or Dravidian party do not have their business as claiming credit for the change that we bring for ourselves. When we change from better to best, these people will say that we are bad yesterday and therefore cannot be good today. This is the politics of Divide and Rule.

This is yet another new vision that all the changes in regard to inter-caste attitudes have been brought about by us ("change that we bring for ourselves"); if that be true how was it that no such wind of change was visible for a long, long time till Independence, making of untouchability a crime, the efforts of the governments to curb atrocities based on caste discrimination, etc.? Please introspect and answer to yourself whether changes other than physical aging come without any external cause/s? Even the claim of improving one's basic nature by yoga and all that is pure advertisement; the intrinsic nature of a human being is so powerful that it will never change permanently except through the operation of more powerful external forces, and any change which anyone may claim in this respect will only be superficial and the leopard's spots will appear underneath.

"Gone with the wind" which you cite does not depict suo motu changes; it vividly portrays the death of a certain culture and way of living due to the attack and destruction brought about by the Yankees. Hence I think your example proves the exact opposite of your main postulate.

 

[Ganamukundhapriya]

The posting to you also sir. Kunjuppuji's thathathsu I have considered for mentioning him.

Maid and labour are still there and will continue in future also. None even today pay even the stipulated minimum wages to the maids and I do not know of any communist party or an individual maid making issue about it. In fact the relationship between a maid servant and her master use to be holier than the relation between the 'Employee' and 'Boss' of the corporate world today in spite of the paltry paid as salary. 'Gone with the wind also depicts such holistic relationship in the old order.

Where does the Government says that Brahmins are the root cause of the untouchability? People who govern try to make you believe and so you believe. In reality even Brahmins face inhuman treatments nowadays and you cannot highlight it even with all the Human Rights commissions just because the public perceptions are skewed.

Today human scavenging is illegal. But it still continues proving that law cannot eradicate anything. Only people have to change. Mahathma Gandhi also forced his wife in to Scavenging will be accepted today as wind of change. If a poor brahmin tried to educate daliths in those days that way, it will be seen as discrimination. That is the reason you are evading clear answer to my question on what you have witnessed as discrimination.

In Sabarimala I have seen porters carrying devotees as shoulder load. This Kerala is very much real. These porters do not see that they are working like cattle for a paltry. It moved my heart but tomorrow when the wind of change has blown the history will say that the Brahmin devotees are to blame! The Kerala Government, Communist parties etc will stand united on such allegations.

So you do not have any moral doubts in treating the barber as untouchable. That is what I say about all our ancestors. Introspect sir.Do not go blindly by what Government or the society says. It is we who make or break the Government or Society. We can do it very decisively with just a fraction of percentage as Reservation.

Shri Gana,

I am not sure whether you really wanted to address your post to Kunjuppu, but since you quote my post to him I thought a response from me may not be out of place. If it is, please excuse me.

The two items you cite have practically vanished in Kerala and also TN. I know from first hand accounts as to how servant maids are (to be) treated now in Chennai city and I have also some idea as to how the house maids are in Tirunelveli, Nagercoil and Tiruppatisaram- a small agraharam near Nagercoil; my relatives are there in all these places and I have personally seen how things are. My father-in-law had agricultural lands (hereditorily obtained) in TN and I have seen how difficult it was to manage those; he had great difficulty selling those lands because " the land for the tiller" concept discouraged prospective buyers for a long time, since the actual cultivation was done by one family for generations and they claimed title to the lands. So the scenarios you describe are probably not there now; they might have existed in the olden days.

The need to clean your head after a haircut is recognised and followed even today by many people including my sons who are abroad; they come home after the haircut wash at least their head and face, change clothes although there is absolutely no compulsion on them to do anything. In my younger days, of course, the theory and practice differed. But I feel it was so irritating with all that hair pieces on your body, that even a kid like me who hated taking bath usually, was only too willing to bathe; hence the requirement did not raise any moral doubts in me at any time.
Fortunately or unfortunately, in Kerala I have never seen any teacher chiding a student by calling his caste; the usual scolding was தெம்மாடிகளே, which means goondas or disobedient fellows and the cane was the most used and effective instrument!

NB children used to vent their ire on us by calling us பட்டரே, சாம்பார் குடியா, and we used to call back மீன் தின்னி, and then it used to end in fisticuffs till one was routed or some teacher happened to notice. That there is no grouse between the school mates on account of all those happenings now is the general trend of the world and I think there is no relevance in making all these points by you.

That is a very fine and clever argument Sir, and it could have very well been implemented if you were the emperor (EkacchtrAdhipati) of India that is Bharat; but unfortunately the government is chosen (may be with a faulty but still valid and universally accepted system of elections) by the people and the perception of the government is not based on individual affidavits from you or Shri Suresoo or some more people like you two. The Government (and people like me) are convinced that irrespective of some people not having done any discrimination against any dalit, there is a case for positive discrimination for empowering the Dalits.

Since you seem to have a water-tight argument I would like you to test this in a court of law in order to find out how far it will be valid under the law.

This is yet another new vision that all the changes in regard to inter-caste attitudes have been brought about by us ("change that we bring for ourselves"); if that be true how was it that no such wind of change was visible for a long, long time till Independence, making of untouchability a crime, the efforts of the governments to curb atrocities based on caste discrimination, etc.? Please introspect and answer to yourself whether changes other than physical aging come without any external cause/s? Even the claim of improving one's basic nature by yoga and all that is pure advertisement; the intrinsic nature of a human being is so powerful that it will never change permanently except through the operation of more powerful external forces, and any change which anyone may claim in this respect will only be superficial and the leopard's spots will appear underneath.

"Gone with the wind" which you cite does not depict suo motu changes; it vividly portrays the death of a certain culture and way of living due to the attack and destruction brought about by the Yankees. Hence I think your example proves the exact opposite of your main postulate.

 

[NSP]

After much deliberations I have made the following intelligent Edit at Iyer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now the entire [Tamil Brahmin] community,particularly the Iyer community, is a beleaguered community in Tamilnadu. Popular reasoning is that they are being made to atone for the sins they committed on the other communities in the past. Majority find it comfortable to deport themselves to escape the wrath of the violent anti - Brahmin regime of all the parties that come to power in the State of Tamilnadu. Even the God has cursed them and the curse is that the communities will have everything like School, Colleges, Hospitals, Mutt, Corporate houses etc to them not serving them. The most intellectual of this community are those talking derogatory of the community to ensure respectability for the others. The lofty ideals of their way of life cannot now be followed by them due to the prevailing system that drives them to alienate themselves from any ideals for their life.

 

[sangom]

Maid and labour are still there and will continue in future also. None even today pay even the stipulated minimum wages to the maids and I do not know of any communist party or an individual maid making issue about it. In fact the relationship between a maid servant and her master use to be holier than the relation between the 'Employee' and 'Boss' of the corporate world today in spite of the paltry paid as salary. 'Gone with the wind also depicts such holistic relationship in the old order.

If you are talking about servants in the house who come daily to sweep, wash the clothes, clean the vessels, etc., I know several families in Chennai paying amounts like Rs. 900/= and even more as demanded by the maid and vacuum cleaner and washing machines actually are used but the maid does the lob of operating those; I am not sure whether the maids are satisfied with a wage lower than the minimum wages.
The "holistic relationship" which you claim or believe, existed in Georgia was one of abject slavery and inhuman treatment of the slave labour in the plantations; if you are of the mindset which is inclined to endorse these idyllic existences as something good, I need not argue further with you. But obviously you had the freedom to view the movie in your comfort and choose to identify yourself in that idyllic existence of Scarlett O'Hara in the first part and are not aware that the whole novel (which became a movie) omits - rather cleverly - to omit the actual slavery conditions which was the main cause of the Civil War.

Where does the Government says that Brahmins are the root cause of the untouchability? People who govern try to make you believe and so you believe. In reality even Brahmins face inhuman treatments nowadays and you cannot highlight it even with all the Human Rights commissions just because the public perceptions are skewed.

Everything need not be said; there are somethings that are implied. The vvery fact that some (many?) castes are outside the purview of (ineligible for) reservations is ample evidence for me to know that the Government finds that these castes have bettered at the cost of the others. If more evidence is required you can find those in several threads here. But only a person who is really asleep can be woken up!

Today human scavenging is illegal. But it still continues proving that law cannot eradicate anything. Only people have to change. Mahathma Gandhi also forced his wife in to Scavenging will be accepted today as wind of change. If a poor brahmin tried to educate daliths in those days that way, it will be seen as discrimination. That is the reason you are evading clear answer to my question on what you have witnessed as discrimination.

Aberrations, violations etc., will be there in such cases but that does not mean the system or idea is bad. But I don't understand your argument that "If a poor brahmin tried to educate daliths in those days that way, it will be seen as discrimination."? Why only a poor brahmin? Why would it have been seeen as discrimination? Who would have criticized? I have not evaded answers to your question about "witnessing" discrimination but I find it an absolutely foolish argument and so not worthy of being answered.

In Sabarimala I have seen porters carrying devotees as shoulder load. This Kerala is very much real. These porters do not see that they are working like cattle for a paltry. It moved my heart but tomorrow when the wind of change has blown the history will say that the Brahmin devotees are to blame! The Kerala Government, Communist parties etc will stand united on such allegations.

I have grounds to suspect that such illogical premises are being tutored by some learned centre since such lame grounds have been put forth by others also more than once in this forum before.

You see, I am living in Trivandrum and I know well how these people whom you try to portray as hapless victims of some bonded labour scheme, charge and how much their earnings are. Apart from that, there is no compulsion on any of them to do this work just because they have been born in some caste/s or households and that is the crucial difference. Pl. don't try to "twist" realities in order to suit your case. The existence of the "Doli" bearers of Sabarimala is so well-known in Kerala and to anyone familiar with that facility, that your attempt to include them in the examples of caste discrimination will not pass muster.

So you do not have any moral doubts in treating the barber as untouchable. That is what I say about all our ancestors. Introspect sir.Do not go blindly by what Government or the society says. It is we who make or break the Government or Society. We can do it very decisively with just a fraction of percentage as Reservation.

Here again, you are attempting விதண்டாவாதம். Did I say I treat the barber as untouchable? Any man/woman in his/her senses will see that if at all I have treated anything as untouchable it is the irritating hair pieces sticking to my body. If you have not been able to see this difference, then I will say there is something seriously wrong with your knowledge of English, or your understanding ability or you are an expert in crooked arguments.

I therefore feel it is not worth responding to you anymore.

 

[Ganamukundhapriya]

Novel is a novel. But history should not me written like a novel twisting the facts.

I inferred correctly about your 'untouchability' affair. As you say not all has to be explicitly told. Please understand that I am not blaming you of practicing untouchability. I only say as to what other meant by untouchability. The Gandhiji's meaning of doing scavenger's work for untouchability is now proved wrong. Other wrong meanings also will be proved wrong. So you now know that I am not sleeping.

The poor Brahmin of yesteryear thought others that they will not be accepted amongst the others if they are not clean, not educated etc. Gandhiji also did the same for gaining the acceptance of the colonial rulers. Even today the complaint from Scotnand and NewZealand is that the workers are using the toilets at the CWG venue. Why should not hey use it and why the officials should restrain now the poor worker from using a toilet for a toilet? Please note that no media has reported this as discrimination! But you will put in to the 'Doli' and carry it to places.

Finally what is your experience of discrimination? Is it about the 'two tumbler' system? Do you think that water dispencers at CWG venues should have only one tumblers to demonstrate our determination to fight untouchability to the rest of the world?

Better that you think over these things restraining your urge to respond.

If you are talking about servants in the house who come daily to sweep, wash the clothes, clean the vessels, etc., I know several families in Chennai paying amounts like Rs. 900/= and even more as demanded by the maid and vacuum cleaner and washing machines actually are used but the maid does the lob of operating those; I am not sure whether the maids are satisfied with a wage lower than the minimum wages.
The "holistic relationship" which you claim or believe, existed in Georgia was one of abject slavery and inhuman treatment of the slave labour in the plantations; if you are of the mindset which is inclined to endorse these idyllic existences as something good, I need not argue further with you. But obviously you had the freedom to view the movie in your comfort and choose to identify yourself in that idyllic existence of Scarlett O'Hara in the first part and are not aware that the whole novel (which became a movie) omits - rather cleverly - to omit the actual slavery conditions which was the main cause of the Civil War.

Everything need not be said; there are somethings that are implied. The vvery fact that some (many?) castes are outside the purview of (ineligible for) reservations is ample evidence for me to know that the Government finds that these castes have bettered at the cost of the others. If more evidence is required you can find those in several threads here. But only a person who is really asleep can be woken up!

Aberrations, violations etc., will be there in such cases but that does not mean the system or idea is bad. But I don't understand your argument that "If a poor brahmin tried to educate daliths in those days that way, it will be seen as discrimination."? Why only a poor brahmin? Why would it have been seeen as discrimination? Who would have criticized? I have not evaded answers to your question about "witnessing" discrimination but I find it an absolutely foolish argument and so not worthy of being answered.

I have grounds to suspect that such illogical premises are being tutored by some learned centre since such lame grounds have been put forth by others also more than once in this forum before.

You see, I am living in Trivandrum and I know well how these people whom you try to portray as hapless victims of some bonded labour scheme, charge and how much their earnings are. Apart from that, there is no compulsion on any of them to do this work just because they have been born in some caste/s or households and that is the crucial difference. Pl. don't try to "twist" realities in order to suit your case. The existence of the "Doli" bearers of Sabarimala is so well-known in Kerala and to anyone familiar with that facility, that your attempt to include them in the examples of caste discrimination will not pass muster.

Here again, you are attempting விதண்டாவாதம். Did I say I treat the barber as untouchable? Any man/woman in his/her senses will see that if at all I have treated anything as untouchable it is the irritating hair pieces sticking to my body. If you have not been able to see this difference, then I will say there is something seriously wrong with your knowledge of English, or your understanding ability or you are an expert in crooked arguments.

I therefore feel it is not worth responding to you anymore.

 

[sangom]

After much deliberations I have made the following intelligent Edit at Iyer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now the entire [Tamil Brahmin] community,particularly the Iyer community, is a beleaguered community in Tamilnadu. Popular reasoning is that they are being made to atone for the sins they committed on the other communities in the past. Majority find it comfortable to deport themselves to escape the wrath of the violent anti - Brahmin regime of all the parties that come to power in the State of Tamilnadu. Even the God has cursed them and the curse is that the communities will have everything like School, Colleges, Hospitals, Mutt, Corporate houses etc to them not serving them. The most intellectual of this community are those talking derogatory of the community to ensure respectability for the others. The lofty ideals of their way of life cannot now be followed by them due to the prevailing system that drives them to alienate themselves from any ideals for their life.

Shri NSP,

Wikipedia gives you freedom to edit and you have done it. But there is one point which needs some clarification, to me at least:

"Popular reasoning" - It is not clear whether this is the reasoning across all cross-sections of the population, or among the "The most intellectual of this community" to whom you refer subsequently.

After amending the above, if necessary, the para may be further edited, if you so feel, as under:

...Popular reasoning is that they along with the other forward castes not coming under the reservation benefits, are being made to atone for the sins they committed on the other communities in the past.Even the God has cursed them and the curse is that the communities will not have anything like School, Colleges, Hospitals, Mutt, Corporate houses etc serving them. The most intellectual of this community are those who concede that brahmins had their part in the age-old discrimination against dalits, SCs/STs etc., and accept this as well. There is, however, a dominant group of Iyers still, who would like everyone to believe that the Iyers had no role at all in any caste-based discriminations anytime in the past and since anyway the brahmins of today cannot discriminate, they should not be penalized by the system of reservations and it should be abolished forthwith. The latter dominant group also feel strongly that the lofty ideals of the way of life prescribed for them by their scriptures cannot be followed now, due to the prevailing system of reservations which drives them to alienate themselves from any ideals for their life.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Dear friends,

One honest doubt after reading the poll options made available...

Even if reservations for brahmins IS the right solution,
even if we unanimously Demand reservation for us,
even if we qualify on some unknown ground for reservation,
do any of you really think that the Republic, Democratic, Secular
Indian government will ever agree to give us our quota?

with warm regards,
Visalakshi Ramani.

 

[sangom]

Dear friends,

One honest doubt after reading the poll options made available...

Even if reservations for brahmins IS the right solution,
even if we unanimously Demand reservation for us,
even if we qualify on some unknown ground for reservation,
do any of you really think that the Republic, Democratic, Secular
Indian government will ever agree to give us our quota?

with warm regards,
Visalakshi Ramani.

Smt. Visalakshi,

I have a feeling but no data to support, that even now brahmins are getting equal to or more than their quota based on percentage of total population. But the grouse of members here seems to be mainly against the dalits/SC/ST getting admission to professional colleges with lower marks as compared to a FC candidate. Perhaps the idea of seeking reservation is based on the hope that as a part of the reserved category and with the TB students generally scoring much higher than the present minimum, all the TBs will have easy admissions, but I doubt whether our policy makers are so naive as to allow it; IMO they will fix a separate minimum for the brahmin group under reservation, give 2 or 3 percent seats to Brahmins as per population percentage and put the rest in the open quota, if any such thing remains at that point of time.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

[FONT=arial black,sans-serif]எட்டாத பழத்துக்கு கொட்டாவி விடுவானேன்?
கிட்டாத "கோட்டாவை"த் தேடித் திரிவானேன்?

கிட்டியுள்ள நமது பல திறமைகளை நம்பாமல்
எட்டியே உள்ள ஒதுக்கீட்டை நம்புவானேன்?

"பயணம் மிகவும் கடினமாகும் போது தான்
பயணிப்பார்கள் நல்ல முயற்சியாளர்" அறியீரா?

வெள்ளித் தட்டில் வைத்து தரவேண்டும் என
வெட்டியாகக் கனவு கண்டு வீணாக ஏமாறாமல்;

உழைப்பை நம்பி, உற்சாகத்துடன் முயன்று,
உயர்ந்த வாழ்வினை நாம் அடைந்திடலாமே!

வாழ்க வளங்களுடன்,
விசாலாக்ஷி ரமணி [/FONT]

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Dear Mr. Sangom,
I am sure that T.B.s are actually securing many more seats-than what they will get, by way of reservation allowed for their percentage of the population!
By trying to get something which we don't have, we should not lose what we are already enjoying!
As they say "A bird in hand is worth two in the bush!"
It is best to raise our standard and our marks and qualify under the general category.
Any day it is better to stand on our own two legs than the borrowed, precarious, and unreliable platforms!
with warm regards,
Visalakshi Ramani.

 

[happyhindu]

Novel is a novel. But history should not me written like a novel twisting the facts.

I inferred correctly about your 'untouchability' affair. As you say not all has to be explicitly told. Please understand that I am not blaming you of practicing untouchability. I only say as to what other meant by untouchability. The Gandhiji's meaning of doing scavenger's work for untouchability is now proved wrong. Other wrong meanings also will be proved wrong. So you now know that I am not sleeping.

The poor Brahmin of yesteryear thought others that they will not be accepted amongst the others if they are not clean, not educated etc. Gandhiji also did the same for gaining the acceptance of the colonial rulers. Even today the complaint from Scotnand and NewZealand is that the workers are using the toilets at the CWG venue. Why should not hey use it and why the officials should restrain now the poor worker from using a toilet for a toilet? Please note that no media has reported this as discrimination! But you will put in to the 'Doli' and carry it to places.

Finally what is your experience of discrimination? Is it about the 'two tumbler' system? Do you think that water dispencers at CWG venues should have only one tumblers to demonstrate our determination to fight untouchability to the rest of the world?

Better that you think over these things restraining your urge to respond.

Am not sure if "Gandhiji's meaning of doing scavenger's work for untouchability is now proved wrong".

Perhaps Gandhiji had read the dharmashastras and cud relate why the brahmins in his time were behaving as they did.

This is from the 2nd century book, Manusmrithi (unfortunately i am not able to get the sanskrit font). However, my purpose of posting these notes are bcoz we are asked to consider the dharmashastras equal to the vedas in this century by a brahmanical mutt. Please let me know what do you think of the below.

Manusmrithi, Chapter 8:

8.412. But a Brahmana who, because he is powerful, out of greed makes dwijas against their will do the work of slaves, shall be fined by the king six hundred (panas).

8.413. But a Sudra, whether bought or unbought, he may compel to do servile work; for he was created by the Self-existent (Svayambhu) to be the slave of a Brahmana.

8.414. A Sudra, though emancipated by his master, is not released from servitude; since that is innate in him, who can set him free from it?

8.415. There are slaves of seven kinds, (viz.) he who is made a captive under a standard, he who serves for his daily food, he who is born in the house, he who is bought and he who is given, he who is inherited from ancestors, and he who is enslaved by way of punishment.

8.416. A wife, a son, and a slave, these three are declared to have no property; the wealth which they earn is (acquired) for him to whom they belong.

8.417. A Brahmana may confidently seize the goods of (his) Sudra (slave); for, as that (slave) can have no property, his master may take his possessions.

8.418. (The king) should carefully compel Vaisyas and Sudra to perform the work (prescribed) for them; for if these two (castes) swerved from their duties, they would throw this (whole) world into confusion.

We are talking of a tribalistic society where slaves were traded or bartered or exchanged. According to Manu 8.413 and 8.415 a shudra slave can be bought; and according to Apasthamba (Prasna 1, Patala 7, Khanda 20), a slave can be exchanged for a slave. Can such things be implemented in democracy? Is there not a fundamental difference b/w democracy and a monarchy syatem ?

 

[suresoo]

Dear Sangom Ji,
No sir, i'm not trying to score some debating points by some ploy and there is no strawman in me!
We had fundemental difference on "Reverse Discrimination" and that is what i want to highlight.

According to me the discrimination based on caste reflects ultimately in our social life which includes what you choose to label as private life; for me "private life" means my intimate life with my wife and certain very personal matters/worries and thoughts including family finances. All others will come under "public life" particularly since, in almost all those items like whom to eat with, person from which caste to be considered for marriage (not whom one actually wants to marry from all those possible choices), persons from which castes/groups who should/could be invited for marriage (again not about selecting individuals/families to be invited from each group, since, obviously nobody can invite an infinite number of people) you will be prepared/willing to approve some castes/groups but not some others. You have either confused the issue or are deliberately trying to mix the two with a clever labeling of private and public life. I hope I have made my points clear.

My private life is more wider, but i guess that is for another debate.
Lets get into "Whom to marry" (most of us had made that choice or atleast had aspirations), An individual has so many preferences, on Height, Weight, complextion, education etc etc
Is it a sin to say my Partner should practise Sri Vaishnavism beacuse i have grown up in that value system and hence comfortable?

Some of our member friends who cherish The Western Utopian System want us to copycat.
Even in western countries with centuries of prosperity and concepts of equality build in, In general a caucasian marries caucasian, a black marries another black etc.

We may spend a few centuries chasing that Utopian System, and realise Indian society is not fit for that. Are we not individualistic from vedic period in your opinion?

Here again there is confusion about basics. We are not talking about the rich and the dalit, are we? So, what is the point in bringing that extraneous point, unless you want it as a strawman?

My mistake, I will use the word Brahmin. Brahmins will be paying taxes (for the past sins?) Most Brahmins are anyway rich!

Many in this forum have been elaborating about the undesirable fall-outs of the reservation system; even in your post under reply, you refer to the "race to the bottom" effect (I suppose you are afraid that every one will try/become a dalit or sc/st eventually, except the brahmins on account of this race, am I right?), and "killer doctors/surgeons" populating the entire country. In any system like that of the reservations, some undesirable trends are bound to be there and we cannot cut off the neck to cure the cold. In allopathy very medicine has some side-effects; do we therefore clamour for abolishing these drugs?

IMO, By calling for "Reservations to Brahmins" Brahmins also want to participate in the "Race to bottom". If that is the only game in town, they want to participate in it rather than stand on the outside as disqualified.
For the patients/families operated by un-qualified doctors, its "cutting of the head". Your analogy is quite puzziling.
The same logic can be extended to Building Bridges/Roads etc etc.
The system you support is breaking society at multiple levels...

All that the TBs seem to be having is the gripe against their having lost the undeserving eminence they enjoyed for some decades under the British rule and for one or two decades after Independence too. There is no other justification to say that the reservations system is wrong or bad for the country (not to TBs).

I'm not sure, why you keep saying this in response to my posts. I have always challenged you on facts and ideas and not gripe and whine.

You seem to sit on the top and decide how groups should be dealt (In that process you are writing dharmashastra-II with the popular perceptions of today), I recomend looking at individuals efforts and let the society be built from bottom - up rather than top-bottom.

thanks,

 

[Ganamukundhapriya]

It is now illegal to engage humans to remove human excreta. Gandhiji himself did scavenging work and also forced all at Tolstoy farm, Phoenix and Sabarmathi to do it. He confesses that he even behaved violently with his wife on it. Apart from legal issues, none today follow such things. Why? Gandhiji's belief that human beings should get used to doing all their hygiene work by themselves not depending on untouchables for it is not actually the solution to the problem of untouchability. It is in fact a potential problem.

If Gandhiji can be respected in spite of little error of judgement he has committed, why not the Manusmrithi. Gandhiji had only one justification for following Hindu faiths. He just wanted to keep up the vow he has made to his mother. His mother is not educated and he could have easily brushed aside her vow. But he was very adamant in fulfilling the vow conditions and realized the value of it only in later part his life. So , if you are a happy hindu, respect elders and their tradition. Check as to what they have taken and what they have ignored. Don't assume that Brahmins did not had wisdom on this matter. Bharathiyar is a Brahman who saw his servant maid as the God himself.

Rules on Corporal punishment in Tamilnadu during British rule also will have inhuman flavor. IT cannot be quoted as proof of inhumanity of the colonial regime. Teachers seldom exercised such punishments that they are privileged to administer. Such rules were referred only at extreme instances. Be rest assured that we are a civilized society for ages. Worry about the diktat of the Brahmin mutt only if you have decided to follow the diktat. In that case approach the mutt head for clarification. Else follow only what your elders say. Do not indulge in harming other community members armed with Manusmrithi or Dharmashasthra and loose your happiness for it.

Am not sure if "Gandhiji's meaning of doing scavenger's work for untouchability is now proved wrong".

Perhaps Gandhiji had read the dharmashastras and cud relate why the brahmins in his time were behaving as they did.

This is from the 2nd century book, Manusmrithi (unfortunately i am not able to get the sanskrit font). However, my purpose of posting these notes are bcoz we are asked to consider the dharmashastras equal to the vedas in this century by a brahmanical mutt. Please let me know what do you think of the below.

Manusmrithi, Chapter 8:

8.412. But a Brahmana who, because he is powerful, out of greed makes dwijas against their will do the work of slaves, shall be fined by the king six hundred (panas).

8.413. But a Sudra, whether bought or unbought, he may compel to do servile work; for he was created by the Self-existent (Svayambhu) to be the slave of a Brahmana.

8.414. A Sudra, though emancipated by his master, is not released from servitude; since that is innate in him, who can set him free from it?

8.415. There are slaves of seven kinds, (viz.) he who is made a captive under a standard, he who serves for his daily food, he who is born in the house, he who is bought and he who is given, he who is inherited from ancestors, and he who is enslaved by way of punishment.

8.416. A wife, a son, and a slave, these three are declared to have no property; the wealth which they earn is (acquired) for him to whom they belong.

8.417. A Brahmana may confidently seize the goods of (his) Sudra (slave); for, as that (slave) can have no property, his master may take his possessions.

8.418. (The king) should carefully compel Vaisyas and Sudra to perform the work (prescribed) for them; for if these two (castes) swerved from their duties, they would throw this (whole) world into confusion.

We are talking of a tribalistic society where slaves were traded or bartered or exchanged. According to Manu 8.413 and 8.415 a shudra slave can be bought; and according to Apasthamba (Prasna 1, Patala 7, Khanda 20), a slave can be exchanged for a slave. Can such things be implemented in democracy? Is there not a fundamental difference b/w democracy and a monarchy syatem ?

 

[Ganamukundhapriya]

Welcome madam,

Government today has to concede to the demand for Reservation for any community that demands Reservation. Demand has to be a real perception by majority of the community demonstrable with due political acumen. But my idea is to know as to what a demand to the Government can be from our community for our next level of development. We should always be posing proper demands and we have every right to demand things. But such proactive political activity is absent in our community. People like 'India Cements' Srinivasan demand only for their Corporate interest and get it. Others at the next level owning colleges and Universities prefer paying their way and so resort to buying all that they want. THAMBRAS also virtually function as 'Chamber of Commerce' and so is not reliable for political activity. Therefore, though we have leadership in many form that can negotiate for an advantage from the Government, seldom we inform them as to what we demand. What we have to do is to make them hear our demand. If we succeeded in it, we can even ensure Reservation in US Visa. A felt demand will automatically create a Leader to articulate it in a vibrant democracy.

What is wrong in Brahmins demanding Reservation? Why are we not doing it?

Some of us brand ourselves as the heredity of sinners and so feel that we have to be discriminated by the Government and the society. Others argue that the Government should remove Reservation privilege to all which will not be a sensible demand in a democracy.

What else can qualify as our proper demand?

Dear friends,

One honest doubt after reading the poll options made available...

Even if reservations for brahmins IS the right solution,
even if we unanimously Demand reservation for us,
even if we qualify on some unknown ground for reservation,
do any of you really think that the Republic, Democratic, Secular
Indian government will ever agree to give us our quota?

with warm regards,
Visalakshi Ramani.

 

[Nara]

.. Bharathiyar is a Brahman who saw his servant maid as the God himself.

IMO, Bharathiyar, if he is alive today, would hate to be called a Brahmin. He may have been born into a Brahmin family, that was not his fault.

Stop thinking of yourself as a "Brahmin". This neither does any good in a "spiritual" sense, neither does it do you any good in social sense.

Reservation for Brahmins is a pipe dream, and that is a good thing, for, if Brahmins are given reservation it will not be like it is for others, you will be prevented from competing in the open seats and that would only be a disaster for Brahmins.

Cheers!