Reservation for Brahmins

[sangom]

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I could get some info from the web regarding the reservation system for students in TN and how it is implemented. Reproduced below:

"Reservation policy in Tamil Nadu
[edit] Historical perspective
The reservation system in Tamil Nadu is much in contrast to the rest
of India, not by the nature of reservation but by its history. When
the first reservation protest hit New Delhi in May 2006, a contrasting
quiet serenity was noticed in Chennai. Later, as the anti-reservation
lobby gained in visibility in Delhi, Chennai saw quiet street protests
demanding reservation. Doctors in Chennai, including doctors
association for social equality(DASE) were in the forefront expressing
their support for reservation in institutions of higher education run
by the Central government.
[edit] Present practice
At present, in day to day practice, reservation works out to somewhat
less than 69%, depending on how many non-reserved category students
are admitted in the super-numerary seats. If 100 seats are available,
first, two merit lists are drawn up without considering community
(reserved or unreserved), one for 31 seats and a second for 50 seats,
corresponding to 69% reservation and 50% reservation respectively. Any
non-reserved category students placing in the 50 seat list and not in
the 31 seat list are admitted under super-numerary quota (i.e.) seats
are added to the 100 for these students. The 31 seat list is used as
the non-reserved open admission list and 69 seats are filled up using
the 69% reservation formula (30 seats obc, 20 seats mbc, 18 seats sc
and 1 seat st). The effective reservation percentage depends on how
many non-reserved category students figure in the 50 list and not in
the 31 list. At one extreme, all 19 (added from 31 to make the 50
list) may be non-reserved category students, in which case the total
reservation works out to about 58%(69/119); this might also be argued
to be (69+19)/119 or 74% with the 19% considered as a 'reservation'
for non-reserved category students! At the other extreme, none of the
19 added to the 31 list may be from the non-reserved category, in
which case no super-numerary seats are created and reservation works
out to be 69% as mandated by the state law.
Ref.Vikipedia"

I think, from the above explanation, that if a TB student comes within the top 50 per cent of the rank list, he/she will get admission as if from the non-reserved quota. Is that not fair enough? What more benefit/s will we derive by getting a reserved quota for TBs? Nobody here seems to know about this as no one has come forward to explain that despite my requests.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Resrvation for Brahmins

Sangom Sir,
Students from forward community are able to get into prestigious instituitions under Anna university( I mean colleges coming directly under ANNA UNVERSITY like COLLEGE OF ENGINEERING, MIT CHROMEPETetc) on MERIT BASIS based on their marks in plus two examinations under the present reservation system in Tamilnadu. My grand daughter from Newdelhi could get into ALAGAPPA COLLEGE
very close to COLLEGE OF ENGINEERING, GUINDY based on her performance in plus two.
The problem faced by all communities (both Fc & BC/OBC/ST/SC) under the present system of reservation is that they are not able to get into college of their choice or course of their choice once they do not come in rank in the first
few hundreds.So parents of all communities try to pay capitation fee(either legally or illegally) and select their preferred colleges and their preferred courses and do not go for counselling.Parents/Students who cannot afford to
pay capitation fees accept whichever college/course they get in counselling
and join.I think opportunity is available to join Engineering courses.
There is very real problem in the case of Medical courses as the number of medical colleges are not sufficient to accomodate all aspirant candidates.
Another thing I notice among TB students (experience of my family and some known families) that they are not as studious as they should be ,NOT AT ALL hard working and expect miracles to happen to get high percentage of marks with least effort.When results come they will start blaming reservation policy and mourn that forward community is neglected and so and so forth.I find this trend more in TB boys.This is a serious issue to introspect.

 

[NSP]

It is very much a public knowledge that Tamilnadu has got engineering seats more then the number of aspirants. At what cost is the question?

Now in CBSE 10th standard, there is no mark. It is all grades. Have you checked as to how polytechnique admissions are made in TN?

The super numeracy compulsion for 69% reservation results only in creation of more seats with more private colleges. Most of them are not getting filled-up. It can be filled only if all those allocated by super numeracy accept the offer. But 90% of them do not take it and resort to paying their way through Management Quota.

Privatization and Liberalization of higher education has now ensured that even an American or Europeon looking for admission in India can have it by paying for it. The problem with Private Colleges are...1. They will not accept any mark as sufficient for admission through merit but they will seek relaxation in pass percentage to do admission in Management Quota. 2. Seldom management quota goes unfilled in them while merit quota doesn't get filled fully through common counsellings. 3. No qualification will be accepted as approved qualification for teachers in it but only unapproved qualified will be engaged as teachers....

From a distance everything will appear excellent in Tamilnadu. By the time you realize the truth, you would have already committed couple of lakhs of rupees in it and so you have to keep your trap shut fearing victimization in placements. Full reality will bloom only when the placement bubble is pricked. Now you have also spent couple of years and so you never can open your mouth.

I could get some info from the web regarding the reservation system for students in TN and how it is implemented. Reproduced below:

"Reservation policy in Tamil Nadu
[edit] Historical perspective
The reservation system in Tamil Nadu is much in contrast to the rest
of India, not by the nature of reservation but by its history. When
the first reservation protest hit New Delhi in May 2006, a contrasting
quiet serenity was noticed in Chennai. Later, as the anti-reservation
lobby gained in visibility in Delhi, Chennai saw quiet street protests
demanding reservation. Doctors in Chennai, including doctors
association for social equality(DASE) were in the forefront expressing
their support for reservation in institutions of higher education run
by the Central government.
[edit] Present practice
At present, in day to day practice, reservation works out to somewhat
less than 69%, depending on how many non-reserved category students
are admitted in the super-numerary seats. If 100 seats are available,
first, two merit lists are drawn up without considering community
(reserved or unreserved), one for 31 seats and a second for 50 seats,
corresponding to 69% reservation and 50% reservation respectively. Any
non-reserved category students placing in the 50 seat list and not in
the 31 seat list are admitted under super-numerary quota (i.e.) seats
are added to the 100 for these students. The 31 seat list is used as
the non-reserved open admission list and 69 seats are filled up using
the 69% reservation formula (30 seats obc, 20 seats mbc, 18 seats sc
and 1 seat st). The effective reservation percentage depends on how
many non-reserved category students figure in the 50 list and not in
the 31 list. At one extreme, all 19 (added from 31 to make the 50
list) may be non-reserved category students, in which case the total
reservation works out to about 58%(69/119); this might also be argued
to be (69+19)/119 or 74% with the 19% considered as a 'reservation'
for non-reserved category students! At the other extreme, none of the
19 added to the 31 list may be from the non-reserved category, in
which case no super-numerary seats are created and reservation works
out to be 69% as mandated by the state law.
Ref.Vikipedia"

I think, from the above explanation, that if a TB student comes within the top 50 per cent of the rank list, he/she will get admission as if from the non-reserved quota. Is that not fair enough? What more benefit/s will we derive by getting a reserved quota for TBs? Nobody here seems to know about this as no one has come forward to explain that despite my requests.

 

[sangom]

Shri Krishnamurthy, Shri NSP,

Thank you for your valuable feedbacks. But one more doubt; is there an entrance exam or is admission based on the marks in +2?

 

[NSP]

Krishnamurthyji, it is the parents who have to work hard as per the present system. Students without good marks but from good background can reap rich fortune provided the parents sustained an engineering education by their hard work. You have to keep ready a big money for your grand daughter to make investment on her behalf in a venture. If you have already a venture, then you have create interest in her on that venture. You also can pray for proper match for her that can engage her in a venture coming through the alliance.

The students realize it very early. In fact they spend most of the time in finding a good match for them and convince their parents at the right time (when they just realize the truth). Anyone can get engineering admission with any good 10 + 2 mark now. But the value they derive from it depends on how hard the parents trouble themselves.

With admission assured, can you tell as to what is in store for them from their good grades in Engineering? Don't post something about the assured placements for you believe in them for you have no other option than that. If the parents can pull along for some more time, the student can go for masters. Some minimum expense of few lakhs can help in seeing the foreign land. Can a Brahmin get placed in any prestigious Government or Public sector undertaking just with the merit in 10 + 2. Not a single Brahmin got placed in Electricity Board as Assistant Engineer (Entry Level position) in past so many years. Why do you expect students to work hard in futility when it is in fact the parents who have to work hard. Let the students enjoy their stay in their colleges.

Sangom Sir,
Students from forward community are able to get into prestigious instituitions under Anna university( I mean colleges coming directly under ANNA UNVERSITY like COLLEGE OF ENGINEERING, MIT CHROMEPETetc) on MERIT BASIS based on their marks in plus two examinations under the present reservation system in Tamilnadu. My grand daughter from Newdelhi could get into ALAGAPPA COLLEGE
very close to COLLEGE OF ENGINEERING, GUINDY based on her performance in plus two.
The problem faced by all communities (both Fc & BC/OBC/ST/SC) under the present system of reservation is that they are not able to get into college of their choice or course of their choice once they do not come in rank in the first
few hundreds.So parents of all communities try to pay capitation fee(either legally or illegally) and select their preferred colleges and their preferred courses and do not go for counselling.Parents/Students who cannot afford to
pay capitation fees accept whichever college/course they get in counselling
and join.I think opportunity is available to join Engineering courses.
There is very real problem in the case of Medical courses as the number of medical colleges are not sufficient to accomodate all aspirant candidates.
Another thing I notice among TB students (experience of my family and some known families) that they are not as studious as they should be ,NOT AT ALL hard working and expect miracles to happen to get high percentage of marks with least effort.When results come they will start blaming reservation policy and mourn that forward community is neglected and so and so forth.I find this trend more in TB boys.This is a serious issue to introspect.

 

[NSP]

The Government is dead against the Entrance examination and therefore it is only 10 + 2 marks. But Management seats necessarily have to be filled - in by an All India examination. But that can be arranged and the service is free for few thousand rupees that you pay for the forms!

Shri Krishnamurthy, Shri NSP,

Thank you for your valuable feedbacks. But one more doubt; is there an entrance exam or is admission based on the marks in +2?

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Dear Mr. R.K.B,

You are twisting my words.

The quotation கிட்டாதாயின் வெட்டென மற! is with reference to the
non-existing and elusive Quota and allotment, you hope to secure for T.brahmins!

The proverb suggests that instead of chasing ephemeral soap bubbles in vain, a person can channelize his energy in securing what he wants to achieve in life!

The hard work which I try to promote is for increasing one's ability and the marks obtained so that a person NEED NOT depending on this this elusive quota.

Where and What is the contradiction??

Freedom for India might have appeared an impossible dream! But it was our birth right. Why should we sit tight and let a few foreigners rule our mother land?

You are dragging in The freedom struggle in an effort to make your fight for allotment appear as sanctified as the struggle for freedom.

I will write more poems and quote more proverbs until I make my points clear.
I am not the person to evade an issue!

with warm regards,
Visalakshi Ramani.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

dear Mr.Nachi naga,

I fail to see your point in the classifications and sub classifications!

"Micro management" and locating differences by "Hair splitting" will only lead to more and more problems.

Whether we are Tamils first and Brahmins next OR
Brahmins first and Tamils next, what difference does it make?

What is the big deal?

If we want to get something, we must remain focused and KNOW what exactly we aim to get! Otherwise it will be similar to searching for a black cow, on a new moon night, without the aid of even a flickering lamp!

with warm regards,
Visalakshi Ramani.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

எந்தக் காலத்திலும் நான் இதையே கூறுவேன்!
எந்த மேடையிலும் இதையே முழங்குவேன் - ஆனை

தந்தக் கால்களாக இருந்தாலும் சரியே -அரசு
தந்த(?) மரக் கால்களாக இருந்தாலும் சரியே;

சொந்தக் கால்களே என்றைக்குமே உயர்ந்தவை-அவை
நொந்த கால்களாக இருந்தாலும் சரியே!

தந்த கால்களை அரசு மீண்டும் பறிக்கலாம்;
அந்தக் கால்கள் ஆட்டம் கண்டு போகலாம்;

எந்தக் காலத்திலும் சொந்தக் கால்களில் நிற்பவர்க்கு
இந்த அச்சம் எப்போதும் தேவை இல்லையே!

மந்த புத்தி உடையவனும் கூட இதை அறிவான்,
சிந்தனை செய்தால் உமக்கும் உண்மை விளங்கும்.

குந்தகம் செய்பவரை நாம் கூட்டணி அமைத்து
பந்தாடிவிடுவோம் ,ஒன்றாக வாருங்கள்!

யந்திர வாழ்க்கையில் செக்கு மாடாகாமல்;
சுந்தரமான வாழ்வினை அமைப்போம் வாரீர்!

வாழ்க வளமுடன்
விசாலாக்ஷி ரமணி.

 

[suresoo]

Dear HH,

Please let me know your views mentioned on this post (reproduced in maroon below): http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...ow-some-norms-ethics-forum-13.html#post52301:

I assume these questions are pointed at me because of my discussion with @sangom on "Race To Bottom". I have already stated there (and state here) Its not to question, dalits are getting in without any merit. I said the 'Process in Place' makes us as a society to 'Race to the Bottom' by grouping as downtrodden.

I do not know the context under which these statements were made in that forum "Do we follow some norms and ethics in this forum". I will treat them as standalone statements in my response

If am not wrong, for SCs and STs, the required cut-off in the AIIMS entrance exam has never gone down below 70 percent.

I know of so-called 'upper-castes' (both Bs and NBs) who did not score beyond 50 percent in the AIIMS entrance from 1990 to 2001.

So, the SCs and STs who are getting admitted to AIIMS are obviously not the "lowest scores".

I did a google search '50% cutoff marks in AIIMS' and got this link
AIIMS scraps 50% cut-off marks in MBBS entrance - The Times of India

"Unable to fill all reserved category seats last year, All India Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS) has decided to do away with 50% cut-off criteria in its MBBS entrance exam from this academic session. The decision is likely to spark controversy as faculty members and junior doctors feel that this is is in violation of SC order, according to which, there ought to be cut-off marks in all medical entrance exams."

The Procedure for entrance change almost every year, its difficult to make generic statements valid over decades.
AIIMS is one of the Premier Institutions and compettion is high among reseverd seats too. We should also look at Cutoff Marks in bottom colleges for a complete view.

Am reminded of Dr.Yadulal from the "India Untouched" movie who questions the economically spoilt section (of upper castes) who get low marks and study on donations.

Why are we questioning the competance of those who study on reservations but do not question those who (fare much worse academically but) study on donations?

If the topic under discussion was "economically spoilt upper class", I hope some member would have mused about this!

Also, please let me know which medical college admits students specifically for masters degree specialization in cardio thoracic surgery for 50 percent marks ? And how much difference exists, between marks required for upper caste students and SCs / STs, for cardio thoracic surgery ?

If you can show that doctors in India are all well qualified, the next time my Heart feels heavy i will be confident the doctor will take care of it and keep eating that unfinished samosa !!

thanks,

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Dear friends,
I don't poke my button nose in the battle of wits between two other persons!
But I will surely reply, if any mail is addressed to me.
If you find my name too long to be typed, it can be shortened as Mrs.Ramani or even Mrs.V.R!
with warm regards,
Mrs.V.R

 

[sangom]

Mrs. V.R

There is an unwritten practice I find in this forum that members use the default (black) font colour except for highlighting a word or sentence, or when citing something for which they blue/italics/bold. In netiquette, use of "bold" letters is treated as equivalent to "shouting". Red colour is used in this forum by the moderator/s when writing in such capacity.

I would request you to consider following the general practice. It will make your posts less strenuous to read.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear HH,

I assume these questions are pointed at me because of my discussion with @sangom on "Race To Bottom". I have already stated there (and state here) Its not to question, dalits are getting in without any merit. I said the 'Process in Place' makes us as a society to 'Race to the Bottom' by grouping as downtrodden.

These questions were posted for your views becasue you posted this to Sangom sir: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/3940-reservation-brahmins-51.html#post56363
"In the society you are trying to build, a person who had never crossed 50% marks would end up being a Heart surgeon. When he opens up a patient for heart surgery, he may not know 50% of the parts in there (Just a Joke, I hope you see that with humor). Wait, i'm not saying dalits are not good surgeons. I'm only saying the system you support leads a "Race to the Bottom".

What you wrote can came across as a bit of caste-based slander against those who study cardiothoracic / cardiovascular surgery at masters level. This is so, because i hear that there are indian doctors and surgeons who do mbbs as well as masters in india on reservations and work in countries such as US, UK and in gulf and southeast asian countries.

Ofcourse my hearsay and observation sample sizes are small. Which is why i asked you which medical college admits students for masters degree for 50 percent marks and what is the difference between marks required for upper caste students and SCs / STs, for cardio thoracic surgery.

Please look up admission procedures for PG entrances for various colleges. AFAIK, one cannot even apply for entrance exam for MD / MS admission unless one gets minimum 55 percent in MBBS. And for SC / ST candidates this is relaxed to 50 percent (btw, i know of Forward Caste candidates who did not even get the minimum 50 percent overall in MBBS to qualify to write PG entrance).

And please have a look at the number of seats reserved for SC /ST candiates at PG level: http://www.aiimsexams.org/AIIMS-PG-Prospectus.pdf Out of 117 seats, only 7 are reserved for SC and 14 for ST (total 21 seats out of 117 seats). If these 21 seats are filled up, then a candiate has to try for open admission even if he is SC / ST.

Moreover AFAIK, there is no reservations for super-speciality (DM / Mch) level admissions all over India. A candidate has to qualify purely on merit. And to be a cardiac surgeon the most common qualifying degree is MCh in cardiothoracic surgery (there are v.few colleges such as Kings College lucknow which offer cardiovascular & thoracic surgery at MS level and this too is on merit, no reservations). And yes, there are SC / ST surgeons who qualify under this merit quota. Which perhaps may be displeasing for some to hear.

I do not know the context under which these statements were made in that forum "Do we follow some norms and ethics in this forum". I will treat them as standalone statements in my response.

I did a google search '50% cutoff marks in AIIMS' and got this link
AIIMS scraps 50% cut-off marks in MBBS entrance - The Times of India

"Unable to fill all reserved category seats last year, All India Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS) has decided to do away with 50% cut-off criteria in its MBBS entrance exam from this academic session. The decision is likely to spark controversy as faculty members and junior doctors feel that this is is in violation of SC order, according to which, there ought to be cut-off marks in all medical entrance exams."

Please read the last sentence in that newspaper article by Dr.Bhargava. Dunno if it got to be implemented. And even if it did, a candiate still has to pass all his MBBS exams with minimum marks (so its not about just getting admission alone, its about how the student studies / performs after admission). And it certainly does not affect the Post-graduate admissions; which remains on merit as explained above. I looked up the minimum qualifying marks for PG entrance for AIIMS for Jan 2011 intake and there is no change in it: http://www.aiimsexams.org/AIIMS-PG-Prospectus.pdf

The Procedure for entrance change almost every year, its difficult to make generic statements valid over decades. AIIMS is one of the Premier Institutions and compettion is high among reseverd seats too. We should also look at Cutoff Marks in bottom colleges for a complete view.

Please let me know which medical college actually changes rules every year for entrance procedure. Except for cut-off marks set every year (which do not change much either, perhaps +/- 3 to 5 percent), nothing else changes. Let me know which are the bottom colleges you want to look at. AFAIK, for super-specialization, as explained above, only open category is available (no reservations) no matter which college it is. And the problem is that there are very few seats available at PG level all over india (am told not more than abt 100 seats all over india for some subjects like nephology and neurology). Which is why many indians go overseas to do post-graduation after doing MBBS in india.

If the topic under discussion was "economically spoilt upper class", I hope some member would have mused about this!

So far the abusers of the system are colleges which admit candidates at MBBS level for donations under management quota even if the candiate scores low marks.

If you can show that doctors in India are all well qualified, the next time my Heart feels heavy i will be confident the doctor will take care of it and keep eating that unfinished samosa !!

thanks,

Your statements remind me of folks who go back to smoking 10 packs cigarattes a day less than a month after heart surgeries. Ofcourse, they do not last long, even if the are under the care of the most competant medical care givers. They do not take care of their health, instead they want to depend on the competance of their surgeons for health.

Am sorry to say sir, but some remarks by various ppl on this thread can come across like being caste-vindictive. However, am not inclined to get into a discussion with them. Time has a way of managing things i suppose. These days dalits get MBBS admissions on merit. So, some posters who seem to have an underlying caste superiority ideology can hopefully wake up. The playing field is truly getting level with no "race to the bottom".

 

[Nara]

....Am sorry to say sir, but some remarks by various ppl on this thread can come across like being caste-vindictive. .......These days dalits get MBBS admissions on merit. So, some posters who seem to have an underlying caste superiority ideology can hopefully wake up. The playing field is truly getting level with no "race to the bottom".

Happy, thanks for the detailed presentation. The merit argument against reservation is one that is completely bogus. The cut off marks differ only marginally and certainly does not indicate any significant difference in merit.

Cheers!

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Dear Mr. Sangom,

Thank you for educating me with regard to the color scheme and netiquette!

Though belated it will be helpful to a novice like me, in future.

Try how much ever I could not get the black color of your unwritten general practice, in this page

I don't have to shout for any reason whatever and definitely not to the general public!!

It is funny that you find it strenuous to read a few lines well spaced and punctuated (written by me) but not the page long paras without spacing and punctuations!

If I find anything too strenuous to read, I just skip reading it! I have limited time and very limited energy to be wasted thus.

I have been using blue, bold, italics all my life! No one had complained till today!

with warm regards,
Mrs.V.R.

 

[RKB]

Thank you very much madam for your response. It is nice that you have decided to spend more time on the issue, which to me is an approval from your subconscious mind. I do not deny that you have a valid point. I also approve all your emotions on the issue. But I request you to clarify the following to enable us to respond to you with proper understanding.

1. Do you object to Reservation in all forms (for SC/ST, for BC/OBC/MBC, For Men/Women, Compassionate ground, Ex-Serviceman, Disabled etc)? Or do you object only to Brahmins demanding Reservation?

I am against Caste and Community based Reservation. As a gentleman I will voice in favor of Women's reservation but...!!! But Reservation of Brahmins, as I have said in my first post, could well be a right antidote for Reservation. The demand has got all the sanctity and also has been proved as a necessity in a society practicing caste based reservation.

2. What is going to be your action plan for ensuring the 'hard work'? It just is not happening. My niece, who is now in states also felt that the hard work that I am putting for Reservation will not be rewarding. She was not a very studious student (but learned dancing with some interest but by her own estimate is not a good dancer) but managed to settle abroad by marrying an engineer. Now she earns more then her husband at US by her dance school. She says that she is well off now more then most of her better classmates, both at school and dance class. Can she claim that she has achieved success against Reservation by her hard work? I feel that your dosage of hard work would just have spoiled her career! Should I stop my effort just with the example of my niece concluding that the destiny will decide?

எட்டாதவை கிட்டாதென்பதல்ல என்பர் தொட்டனைத் தூறு பவர். I have already hinted on my hard work. Isn't it?

3. I have given the above case because many others who take your position feel that migration as an alternative available to Brahmins. But I tell them that history never has approved migration as a permanent solution. If you are posting your responses from abroad, you might also be feeling that you have achieved against the odds. But I feel that you have ran away from the problem to escape from it. What is your take on 'migration'?

Dear Mr. R.K.B,

You are twisting my words.

The quotation கிட்டாதாயின் வெட்டென மற! is with reference to the
non-existing and elusive Quota and allotment, you hope to secure for T.brahmins!

The proverb suggests that instead of chasing ephemeral soap bubbles in vain, a person can channelize his energy in securing what he wants to achieve in life!

The hard work which I try to promote is for increasing one's ability and the marks obtained so that a person NEED NOT depending on this this elusive quota.

Where and What is the contradiction??

Freedom for India might have appeared an impossible dream! But it was our birth right. Why should we sit tight and let a few foreigners rule our mother land?

You are dragging in The freedom struggle in an effort to make your fight for allotment appear as sanctified as the struggle for freedom.

I will write more poems and quote more proverbs until I make my points clear.
I am not the person to evade an issue!

with warm regards,
Visalakshi Ramani.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Dear Mr.RKB,

I am sure that the Reservation can not be abolished. People who have been reaping the benefits of reservation will see to it that it continues to exist at all costs!

My question is this: should we join this rat race for the sake of a few seats and lose our position in the general category?

When I talk about hard work I suggest that we must learn and improve our qualifications as much as possible, in various fields.

The advice given by elders is களவும் கற்று மற! It does not imply that we should all become robbers and thieves-but we should know at least someting about every thing.

A king is respected only in his own land but
கற்றோர்க்கு சென்ற இடம் எல்லாம் சிறப்பு

An educated man is welcomed every where.
உண்டோ குரங்கேற்றுக் கொள்ளாத கொம்பு?

Migration is Not just for making a living. The persons are treated well and recognized according to their contribution without any racial discrimination and unnecessary interference.

Food is not everything. There is some higher thing called self-respect and honor.

I wonder why we are deviating from Reservation to Migration now.

I have not migrated. I visit my sons and their families occasionally since they happen to live abroad.

I myself was earning as much as my husband did-though I never had to leave my home in search of a job. I had scores of students learning physics, Maths, Music, veena and dance at my house for over twenty years. I stopped the classes on my own accord, due to some physical strains involved in teaching.

I don't know how much you are convinced, but I have already learned the lesson (about convincing people) the hard way!

with warm regards,
Mrs. Ramani

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

இன்றைய தினத்தில் சமத்துவம்.

சமத்துவம் என்றால் என்ன தெரியுமா?
சமனப் படுத்துவதே சமத்துவம் ஆகும்.

தாழ்ந்ததை உயர்த்துவது மிகக் கடினம்;
உயர்ந்ததைத் தாழ்த்துவது மிகச் சுலபம்!

கால்களை வெட்டி சமத்துவம் செய்த காலம் மாறி,
தலையே வெட்டி சமத்துவம் செய்யும் காலம் இது!

வேகம் அதிகம் உள்ளவரா நீங்கள்?
வேகத்தடை அமைப்பார் உங்களுக்கு!

வேண்டுமென்றே பின்னல் நிறுத்தப் படுவீர்;
வேண்டாமென்றால் விலகலாம் மௌனமாக!

எடை குறைந்தவரா நீங்கள்? காலில் பூட்டுவர்
எடையைக் கூட்ட இரும்பு குண்டு ஒன்று!

அறிவு அதிகம் உடையவர நீங்கள்?
அறிவைப் பெருக்கும் வழிகளை அடைப்பார்!

திறமை நிரம்பி வழிபவரா நீங்கள்?
திறமையாகப் பணி செய்ய விடார் உங்களை!

நாணயம், நேர்மை கொண்டவரா நீங்கள்?
நாணயத்தையே கண்ணால் காண விடார்!

"வல்லமை தாராயோ மாநிலம் பயனுற வாழ்வதற்கு"
வருந்திக் கேட்ட நம் தமிழ் கவி பாரதியார் இன்று

பொல்லாததைக் கண்டு குமுறிக் கொந்தளிக்க
இல்லாதது கூட நல்லதே எனத் தோன்றுகிறது.

வளமுடன் வாழ்வோமா?
விசாலாக்ஷி ரமணி

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

சூழ்நிலையின் இறுக்கத்தைக் குறைக்க ஒரு குட்டிக் கவிதை!
முன் குறிப்பு: (இந்த தாத்தா vs பாட்டியிலே)
தாத்தா= என் கணவர்

!
பாட்டி= நானே தான்

!

தாத்தா வைப்பார் ஆப்பு;
பாட்டி வைப்பார் சூப்பு!

தாத்தா வெடிப்பது கேப்பு;
பாட்டி கேட்பது டேப்பு!

தாத்தாவுக்கு வேணும் உப்பு;
பாட்டி சாப்பாடோ சப்பு!

தாத்தா கையிலே சோப்பு;
பாட்டி கையிலே ஷாம்பூ!

தாத்தாவுக்கு வேண்டாம் சீப்பு;
பாட்டிக்கு வேணும் காப்பு!

தாத்தா தின்பது சோம்பு;
பாட்டி அஞ்சுவது பாம்பு!

தாத்தா ஜோக்கு டாப்பு;
பாட்டி வெறுப்பது டூப்பு!

தாத்தாவுக்கு பிடிக்கும் வம்பு;
பாட்டிக்கு பிடிக்காது தும்பு!

தாத்தாவுக்கு எல்லாமே தப்பு;
பாட்டிக்கு எல்லாமே ஒப்பு!

தாத்தா பேசுவது கோப்பு;
பாட்டி பேசுவது யாப்பு!

தாத்தா தருவார் வாய்ப்பு;
பாட்டிக்கு பிடிக்காது ஏய்ப்பு!

தாத்தாவுக்கு கரம் கூப்பு;
பாட்டி தருவார் மாப்பு!

இது எப்படி இருக்கு?

கொஞ்சம் சிரிக்கலாமே!

 

[RKB]

I feel convinced now that you have practiced enough to being convinced to get convinced. Human beings cannot endure bad things for long and so Reservation system will change to something good eventually. If you are already reaping benefit from it, I am not for denying you the benefit. But I am sure that one day you yourself will realize as to what it means to those who are deprived of opportunities because of you.

Today any opportunity in the Corporate world is a Rat race. But none seems to have stopped running the race. Avoiding a race cannot mean a win. Let us run the race by changing the rats to rabbits.

Thank god that you did not meant writing improvement exams after improvement for finding a opening. But I think you mean all Brahmins to learn Veena, Music, Sloka etc to give meaning to people work hard in those fields. That is not a bad idea. But what is going to be your action to make it a reality. Brahmins badly need such education that will fix them to their roots.

It is very difficult to explain migration. Mostly people get educated only after a crisis. If you are one who feel migration as an escape option is understood by your reply. My prayers are always for peace in all the world.

Dear Mr.RKB,

I am sure that the Reservation can not be abolished. People who have been reaping the benefits of reservation will see to it that it continues to exist at all costs!

My question is this: should we join this rat race for the sake of a few seats and lose our position in the general category?

When I talk about hard work I suggest that we must learn and improve our qualifications as much as possible, in various fields.

The advice given by elders is களவும் கற்று மற! It does not imply that we should all become robbers and thieves-but we should know at least someting about every thing.

A king is respected only in his own land but
கற்றோர்க்கு சென்ற இடம் எல்லாம் சிறப்பு

An educated man is welcomed every where.
உண்டோ குரங்கேற்றுக் கொள்ளாத கொம்பு?

Migration is Not just for making a living. The persons are treated well and recognized according to their contribution without any racial discrimination and unnecessary interference.

Food is not everything. There is some higher thing called self-respect and honor.

I wonder why we are deviating from Reservation to Migration now.

I have not migrated. I visit my sons and their families occasionally since they happen to live abroad.

I myself was earning as much as my husband did-though I never had to leave my home in search of a job. I had scores of students learning physics, Maths, Music, veena and dance at my house for over twenty years. I stopped the classes on my own accord, due to some physical strains involved in teaching.

I don't know how much you are convinced, but I have already learned the lesson (about convincing people) the hard way!

with warm regards,
Mrs. Ramani

 

[prasanth1]

On the topic of migration:
Migration is the quickest way to lose a group's culture. We have seen "assimilation" happen to various other groups around the world throughout history. I have studied abroad, and thus I've seen how quickly "traditional" TB families who have migrated produce children who, by pressure, adapt to their new environment. Within a generation or two the culture binding is lost. It is inevitable.
Is that really the future for the TB community. Spreading out and merging into foreign cultures.

 

[Nara]

....Is that really the future for the TB community. Spreading out and merging into foreign cultures.

prasanth1, I think true change will only come from younger generation marrying outside caste. From being a case here and a case there, it has now become not so infrequent as to be accepted at least by the immediate families when it happens.

Castiests will lament a lot and will try to put a stop to this trend. Such sentiments are expressed here in this site quite often. But, sooner than later, a critical mass of icm would be achieved and then it is a matter of no more than 50 years for TB to be no more.

But, I am not at all sanguine about caste in general in Tamilnadu. The reasons for this pessimism include, (i) now, it is the FC NB who are much more castiest than TBs, (ii) due to numerically large population strength, achieving critical mass of icm will be much more difficult in the case of dominant NBs of Tamilnadu, (iii) the unfortunate side effect of caste-based reservation system reinforces caste identity in a negative way for NBs -- however, as post-secondary education becomes increasingly common place among these populations, the day will surely come when everyone will cast aside their caste identities.

Cheers!

 

[prasanth1]

Nara.

I agree with you.

Just to clarify because I do not want my post to be misinterpreted. When I say "culture", I do not mean "caste".

 

[sangom]

On the topic of migration:
Migration is the quickest way to lose a group's culture. We have seen "assimilation" happen to various other groups around the world throughout history. I have studied abroad, and thus I've seen how quickly "traditional" TB families who have migrated produce children who, by pressure, adapt to their new environment. Within a generation or two the culture binding is lost. It is inevitable.
Is that really the future for the TB community. Spreading out and merging into foreign cultures.

Shri Prasanth,

I feel that the younger (2nd.) generation usually adopts some of the mores of the foreign society in which they are brought up but they do not lose their moorings in the culture of their parents. Depending upon the numbers available in a particular country/state/area, they congregate and tend to maintain their identity. I find examples for this even at present. Similar efforts and participation is visible in many parts of UK. I am not very familiar with US but there seems to be regular sahasranamam chanting in New York or somewhere there in which even youngsters born and brought up there are active.

We do not know about pre-historic migrations but right from early history any migration has been a benefit to both the incoming and the existing populations, except when it was outright aggression with a view to destroying the enemy (Persia vs Islam). The "assimilation" does not usually destroy the migrants' culture but only modifies it and that too positively, most of the times, I would say.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Amen!