Reservation for Brahmins

[RKB]

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I or Gana or you are all Brahmins as per record no matter whether we like it or not. Spirituality is the same for both Brahmin and NB and so it doesn't matter what they think of themselves by community. There is no substance in your assumption that Brahmins will be given a special kind of Reservation. Let us first demand it in a substantiative manner. It is very early even to assume that we will get it. We can check its quality when it is right for doing it.

IMO, Bharathiyar, if he is alive today, would hate to be called a Brahmin. He may have been born into a Brahmin family, that was not his fault.

Stop thinking of yourself as a "Brahmin". This neither does any good in a "spiritual" sense, neither does it do you any good in social sense.

Reservation for Brahmins is a pipe dream, and that is a good thing, for, if Brahmins are given reservation it will not be like it is for others, you will be prevented from competing in the open seats and that would only be a disaster for Brahmins.

Cheers!

 

[RKB]

[FONT=arial black,sans-serif]A very good poem. But the answer to it lies in the same poem as below.
"பயணம் மிகவும் கடினமாகும் போது தான்
பயணிப்பார்கள் நல்ல முயற்சியாளர்" அறியீரா?

வெள்ளித் தட்டில் வைத்து தரவேண்டும் என
வெட்டியாகக் கனவு கண்டு வீணாக ஏமாறாமல்;

உழைப்பை நம்பி, உற்சாகத்துடன் முயன்று,
உயர்ந்த வாழ்வினை நாம் அடைந்திடலாமே!

Brahmins are not going to get things for their good in a silver plate. Gone are the days when noble and rulers (wisely or unwisely!) considered it important to ensure the welfare of Brahmins. We are in a competitive world now and we have already lost all our competitive advantage by our lethargic attitude. We have to now work hard and get ourselves the Reservation to gain competitive advantage.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial black,sans-serif]எட்டாத பழத்துக்கு கொட்டாவி விடுவானேன்?
கிட்டாத "கோட்டாவை"த் தேடித் திரிவானேன்?

கிட்டியுள்ள நமது பல திறமைகளை நம்பாமல்
எட்டியே உள்ள ஒதுக்கீட்டை நம்புவானேன்?

"பயணம் மிகவும் கடினமாகும் போது தான்
பயணிப்பார்கள் நல்ல முயற்சியாளர்" அறியீரா?

வெள்ளித் தட்டில் வைத்து தரவேண்டும் என
வெட்டியாகக் கனவு கண்டு வீணாக ஏமாறாமல்;

உழைப்பை நம்பி, உற்சாகத்துடன் முயன்று,
உயர்ந்த வாழ்வினை நாம் அடைந்திடலாமே!

வாழ்க வளங்களுடன்,
விசாலாக்ஷி ரமணி [/FONT]

 

[NSP]

Popular reasoning - Popular opinion in this forum.

The most intell.... - The Veterans and Seniors of this forum ( I am an amateur)

I don't understand as to why I have to include 'other forward castes' in the revision. They are not represented in this forum and I therefore do not have any substantiating evidence. As you know that 'Wiki' can be edited by public, you can edit the page by yourself by substantiating it properly.

I also do not find any information regards to 'the dominant group'. The people whom you attribute a opinion seems to be ordinary people as per the information available by their posting in this forum. Your opinion seems to be both dominant and intellectual and so I don't think any other powerful opinion prevail.

However 'Wiki' has discarded my editing and has made me to post my opinion in the 'talk' page. You can also make your 'talk' there sir. We have to ensure that Brahmins don't get any Reservation. Else ordinary performer like me will run out of reason to explain our position.

"Popular reasoning" - It is not clear whether this is the reasoning across all cross-sections of the population, or among the "The most intellectual of this community" to whom you refer subsequently.

After amending the above, if necessary, the para may be further edited, if you so feel, as under:

...Popular reasoning is that they along with the other forward castes not coming under the reservation benefits, are being made to atone for the sins they committed on the other communities in the past.Even the God has cursed them and the curse is that the communities will not have anything like School, Colleges, Hospitals, Mutt, Corporate houses etc serving them. The most intellectual of this community are those who concede that brahmins had their part in the age-old discrimination against dalits, SCs/STs etc., and accept this as well. There is, however, a dominant group of Iyers still, who would like everyone to believe that the Iyers had no role at all in any caste-based discriminations anytime in the past and since anyway the brahmins of today cannot discriminate, they should not be penalized by the system of reservations and it should be abolished forthwith. The latter dominant group also feel strongly that the lofty ideals of the way of life prescribed for them by their scriptures cannot be followed now, due to the prevailing system of reservations which drives them to alienate themselves from any ideals for their life.

 

[sangom]

Popular reasoning - Popular opinion in this forum.

The most intell.... - The Veterans and Seniors of this forum ( I am an amateur)

As you might be knowing, the classifications like amateur, veteran, etc., in this forum is a measure of the total number of posts; they do not at all reflect the intellectual levels. And, why should the forum administrator get into rating the IQs of the members?

Anyway I thank you for considering me as an "intellectual" even if erroneously or sarcastically!

I don't understand as to why I have to include 'other forward castes' in the revision. They are not represented in this forum and I therefore do not have any substantiating evidence.

Your sentence was, "...Popular reasoning is that they are being made to atone for the sins they committed on the other communities in the past." Those who opined in this way in this forum also said that the FCs (not only brahmins) had discriminated against the Dalits, etc. Hence the amendment was needed for true reporting of facts.

As you know that 'Wiki' can be edited by public, you can edit the page by yourself by substantiating it properly.

It was not I who thought of editing the wiki page; if I felt that it was a necessary and unavoidable step, I would have done so myself, without reporting it to this forum. When a member posts here it is taken for granted that other members may and can express their views on the matters so reported; it is not supposed to be a log-book in the case of a few and a free forum in the case of others.

I also do not find any information regards to 'the dominant group'. The people whom you attribute a opinion seems to be ordinary people as per the information available by their posting in this forum. Your opinion seems to be both dominant and intellectual and so I don't think any other powerful opinion prevail.

The word "dominant" has this meaning also - most frequent or common; if you agree that the view as expressed by me reflects the majority opinion among the TBs, I stand corrected, but when I wrote it, I had the feeling that mine was the minority.

However 'Wiki' has discarded my editing and has made me to post my opinion in the 'talk' page. You can also make your 'talk' there sir. We have to ensure that Brahmins don't get any Reservation. Else ordinary performer like me will run out of reason to explain our position.

Hope you have made your remarks in the wiki "talk" page. As I said I will think of contributing to it when I feel it is necessary.

Please don't be disheartened, Kashmiri Pandits have got a few thousand (State?) govt. jobs as a one-time sop only this year, after so many years of suffering and so TBs getting even something like that is many years away; so you need not worry about going out of "reason" for posting here!

 

[happyhindu]

It is now illegal to engage humans to remove human excreta. Gandhiji himself did scavenging work and also forced all at Tolstoy farm, Phoenix and Sabarmathi to do it. He confesses that he even behaved violently with his wife on it. Apart from legal issues, none today follow such things. Why? Gandhiji's belief that human beings should get used to doing all their hygiene work by themselves not depending on untouchables for it is not actually the solution to the problem of untouchability. It is in fact a potential problem.

If Gandhiji can be respected in spite of little error of judgement he has committed, why not the Manusmrithi.

Dear Sir,

Gandhiji got us our freedom. What did Manu do for us? But sure Manu can be respected for the nice parts of the Mansusmrithi.

However, Gandhiji was right. Folks need to get used to doing all their hygiene work by themselves without depending on anyone (untouchables or whatever).

Already maids in Chennai charge Rs.2000 a month for just sweeping, moping, washing utensils and putting clothes out to dry from the washing machine. After 20 years, wonder what the charges for household help will be..

Gandhiji had only one justification for following Hindu faiths. He just wanted to keep up the vow he has made to his mother. His mother is not educated and he could have easily brushed aside her vow. But he was very adamant in fulfilling the vow conditions and realized the value of it only in later part his life. So , if you are a happy hindu, respect elders and their tradition. Check as to what they have taken and what they have ignored. Don't assume that Brahmins did not had wisdom on this matter. Bharathiyar is a Brahman who saw his servant maid as the God himself.

No comment.

Rules on Corporal punishment in Tamilnadu during British rule also will have inhuman flavor. IT cannot be quoted as proof of inhumanity of the colonial regime.

There is no point in comparing british rule, corporal punishments, etc with dharmashastras.

Teachers seldom exercised such punishments that they are privileged to administer.

One teacher used to hit everyone with a scale on the knuckles for nothing. To him, 'it was to make sure all kids are kept in line so that they will have fear if they try to disobey'. Anyways, am not sure what has such a teacher comparison got to do with dharmashastras.

Such rules were referred only at extreme instances. Be rest assured that we are a civilized society for ages.

Am not sure how you wud define "civilization" to be called a "civilized society".

Worry about the diktat of the Brahmin mutt only if you have decided to follow the diktat.

It is worrisome for all hindus if mutt heads give diktats irrelevant to present times. If a man like Batuprasad Sharma prohibits education and temple-entries to shudras, what shd be the punishment for him ?

In that case approach the mutt head for clarification.

It is the duty of mutt heads to be clear with their instructions. Atleast Batuprasad (head of a shastris' association of kashi) is very clear about what he expects and believes.

Even if i drag my brahmin cousins and youngsters to people like Batuprasad, they will only giggle and giggle. Bcoz they know nothing about caste and cannot care to practice discrimination. Brahmins and brahmin children are in no way responsible for what the orthodoxy propagates.

Priests and mutts today cannot exhort brahmins to go back to traditional occupations or expect all hindus to follow varna (jati) dharma. We are talking about the relevancy of shastras in a democratic system and a changing world.

Else follow only what your elders say. Do not indulge in harming other community members armed with Manusmrithi or Dharmashasthra and loose your happiness for it.

I request you not to assume things.

Regards.

 

[RKB]

Wiki moderator is certainly not going to delete anything which is genuinely a popular opinion. I have checked the Wiki and found that they admit Brahmins of today as suffering from the Reservation Policy. But I don't think they have applied their mind still about 'Reservation for Brahmins'.

'Reservation for Brahmins' has to be understood in right perspective. NSP can have good enough reason for his performance level with Reservation as well. Yes, he should say that quota has to be enhanced to accommodate mediocre. But to assume beforehand that it will be inadequate is not correct.

Those who are opposing it are all people who have lived their lives. The reason as to why many of them are hesitating to make the demand is that they were vociferous in opposing the Reservation policy for past many decades. They feel that to make a U - turn now and demand Reservation as ethically wrong for them now. But the younger generation welcomes it. But they get bogged down by opponents posting quoting intricately from scriptures. To them the Religion and Caste is limited to what their conscience tell them. They certainly do not have time for making study on scriptures. Also they have not been adequately exposed to such things by their schooling. But they feel that the generation above them has deceived them by their ego. We should endevour to satisfy them at least now.

Popular reasoning - Popular opinion in this forum.

The most intell.... - The Veterans and Seniors of this forum ( I am an amateur)

I don't understand as to why I have to include 'other forward castes' in the revision. They are not represented in this forum and I therefore do not have any substantiating evidence. As you know that 'Wiki' can be edited by public, you can edit the page by yourself by substantiating it properly.

I also do not find any information regards to 'the dominant group'. The people whom you attribute a opinion seems to be ordinary people as per the information available by their posting in this forum. Your opinion seems to be both dominant and intellectual and so I don't think any other powerful opinion prevail.

However 'Wiki' has discarded my editing and has made me to post my opinion in the 'talk' page. You can also make your 'talk' there sir. We have to ensure that Brahmins don't get any Reservation. Else ordinary performer like me will run out of reason to explain our position.

 

[sangom]

Wiki moderator is certainly not going to delete anything which is genuinely a popular opinion. I have checked the Wiki and found that they admit Brahmins of today as suffering from the Reservation Policy. But I don't think they have applied their mind still about 'Reservation for Brahmins'.

'Reservation for Brahmins' has to be understood in right perspective. NSP can have good enough reason for his performance level with Reservation as well. Yes, he should say that quota has to be enhanced to accommodate mediocre. But to assume beforehand that it will be inadequate is not correct.

Those who are opposing it are all people who have lived their lives. The reason as to why many of them are hesitating to make the demand is that they were vociferous in opposing the Reservation policy for past many decades. They feel that to make a U - turn now and demand Reservation as ethically wrong for them now. But the younger generation welcomes it. But they get bogged down by opponents posting quoting intricately from scriptures. To them the Religion and Caste is limited to what their conscience tell them. They certainly do not have time for making study on scriptures. Also they have not been adequately exposed to such things by their schooling. But they feel that the generation above them has deceived them by their ego. We should endevour to satisfy them at least now.

Shri RKB,


Yours is a very well-argued post. My appreciation for it. I think I wrote in this thread (?) that though I voted for reservations for brahmins, subsequently I got a doubt about its impact for brahmins after some very casual talks with my neighbours and colony-mates (who are TBs); the TBs here (in Kerala) do not at all seem to be eager for reservations and when I broached this topic to my friends, they said it will go against our interests; their main point was that as it is, the Bs in Kerala are getting more professional college opportunities than their percentage population would give, and by asking for reservation of college seats, we may be curtailing this. Demanding just job-reservations in govt. without asking for education will be a very weak argument.

So, I wrote on two occasions in this thread about the comparative position in TN. The first time some member gave an illustration of comparative percentages and argued that reservation was necessary, but I could not really understand the logic (I don't blame the member at all for this; I concede it is my non-familiarity with today's system of reservations and percentages, and how these are applied.) Lastly, I wrote in response to Smt. Visalakshi Ramani's post and she is in agreement with the view that reservations will not be beneficial.

Though I belong to the generation on the way out, to the best of my knowledge there was no occasion for me to oppose the reservation system; may be I and many people of my age who came into the higher education level in the late 1950's and to the job market in early 1960's did not face any serious difficulty in getting a govt./semi-govt. employment (although my particular case was different and I had to struggle a bit). Nor was there any strong opposition against reservations till lately when the NSS (Nair Service Society) seems to have taken it seriously. (These are my impressions and may be wrong. Knowledgeable members kindly correct me.) I completely agree with you that if the younger generation wants reservations, we should support that, no matter what we had done in the past.

I do not think, however,that the people who quote scriptures (I am included in this) are doing so to oppose the demand for reservations for brahmins, but only so far as to justify the reservations as a positive discrimination in favour of the down-trodden classes which is opposed by some members here who would like perfect egalitarian system to be introduced. This has been my understanding. If the various posts give the impression that those who oppose the "opposers" oppose reservation for brahmins also, I am not in that group. My basic doubt is whether reservations for brahmins (TBs) will really be beneficial to our youngsters getting more number of opportunities in admision to professional colleges. If some one can elucidate with statistics, I will be very grateful.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Dear Shree. Nara,
I am glad you understood my point. By demanding our quota as per percentage population, we may unintentionally draw attention to the fact that, we are actually getting more than our share by pure merit.
So the whole idea may backfire!

It will be wise to think twice
Before we tread on thin ice!

with warm regards,
Visalakshi Ramani.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Dear Mr.G.M Priya,
There is a saying in Tamil which goes thus:
[FONT=comic sans ms,sans-serif]"இருப்பதை விட்டு விட்டு பறப்பதைப் பிடிப்பது!"
We will lose what we already have as well as what we wish to acquire!
with warm regards,
Visalakshi Ramani
[/FONT]

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom Ji,
No sir, i'm not trying to score some debating points by some ploy and there is no strawman in me!
We had fundemental difference on "Reverse Discrimination" and that is what i want to highlight.

Shri Suresoo,

Thanks for the clarification.

...Lets get into "Whom to marry" (most of us had made that choice or atleast had aspirations), An individual has so many preferences, on Height, Weight, complextion, education etc etc
Is it a sin to say my Partner should practise Sri Vaishnavism beacuse i have grown up in that value system and hence comfortable?

The question here was not whether you should select x or y but only in widening your selections if you claim that you grew up in an atmosphere of complete non-discrimination of dalits, sc/st, etc. So long as you stick to the Sri Vaishnava identity and exclusivity it shows there is discrimination still working in your mind IMO.

Some of our member friends who cherish The Western Utopian System want us to copycat.
Even in western countries with centuries of prosperity and concepts of equality build in, In general a caucasian marries caucasian, a black marries another black etc.

We may spend a few centuries chasing that Utopian System, and realise Indian society is not fit for that. Are we not individualistic from vedic period in your opinion?

I think there is no point in discussing future developments as these are not relevant to our topic, unless you are saying that discrimination will continue. That would nullify your original claim of growing up without any discrimination, etc.

My mistake, I will use the word Brahmin. Brahmins will be paying taxes (for the past sins?) Most Brahmins are anyway rich!

Firstly it is not clear as to what exactly you mean by "most brahmins" are "rich", unless we agree as to what is the level of income for being called rich.

IMO, By calling for "Reservations to Brahmins" Brahmins also want to participate in the "Race to bottom". If that is the only game in town, they want to participate in it rather than stand on the outside as disqualified.
For the patients/families operated by un-qualified doctors, its "cutting of the head". Your analogy is quite puzziling.
The same logic can be extended to Building Bridges/Roads etc etc.
The system you support is breaking society at multiple levels...

Firstly I don't envisage that the reservation, if at all TBs or Bs in general get it, will be in the same basket as that for SC/ST etc. IMO it will be a separate package and the cut-off marks will be based on the performance of Bs. Unless, as you surmise, all B students actively and consciously "race to the bottom" in respect of scoring marks, the cut-off mark will be, in all likelihood, be very high. The B students who score such high marks will definitely queue up in the reserved seats window and others will have to compete in the open quota. In what way will it be more beneficial to Bs? That is my basic doubt. As I have said more than once I also voted (in the poll) in favour of reservation but have doubts now. You may pl. clarify my doubt.

I mentioned "killer doctors" since you referred to "In the society you are trying to build, a person who had never crossed 50% marks would end up being a Heart surgeon. When he opens up a patient for heart surgery, he may not know 50% of the parts in there (Just a Joke, I hope you see that with humor).
Wait, i'm not saying dalits are not good surgeons. I'm only saying the system you support leads a "Race to the Bottom"." Is it not an open admission that if a student secures only 50 percent marks, he will be capable of learning only 50 percent about the heart (or any aspect of medicine, engineering, etc.)? Though you try to cover it up as a joke, it reflects your mindset; you could very well have deleted it since there is no compulsion here that all posts should contain a joke. That was the reason why I referred to "killer doctors". You now choose to counter me as if I have done a mistake; that is not fair, to say the least.

I'm not sure, why you keep saying this in response to my posts. I have always challenged you on facts and ideas and not gripe and whine.

The reason also I stated; only TBs seem to be so worked up about the reservations. It was not about your posts alone.

You seem to sit on the top and decide how groups should be dealt (In that process you are writing dharmashastra-II with the popular perceptions of today), I recomend looking at individuals efforts and let the society be built from bottom - up rather than top-bottom.

thanks,

I admit my lack of intelligence to understand what it is that you want to convey by the above remarks. Can you pl. explain in simpler and more direct language?

 

[nachi naga]

all are born equal.reservation is for all.must be the motto.only if all are included in reservation,a sense of belonging will exist.otherwise divide and rule principle will continue.leaders shud be leaders and followers shud be followers.laws must be implemented without any political interference.and even if interference exist one must be smart to tackle it.supply and demand situation favors anti-dharma elements in highest power of echelons.thatha raja thatha praja.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Dear Mr. Nachi Naga,

If all are born equal WHERE is the NEED for reservation??

With or Without reservation, we will all be still equal!!

As for the rest of your demands , they are Utopian dreams!

Why do you want to trade 40 percent for a mere 4 percent!
(These figures may not be correct, but the idea they convey is correct!)

with warm regards,
Visalakshi Ramani.

 

[suresoo]

Dear sangom Ji,

I have no more points to add.
I'm inline with @RKB's post #531 and your Post #532. I wish to see convergence of ideas after this lengthy debate.

The Central Government now wants to allow Foreign Educational Institutions in India, I think Bs should work to keep reservations out of it.
These institutions will be funded Privately and may not seek Govt accreditation. In that case Govt cannot force them to follow reservations.
Many Indian Industries are also want to invest in such Ins to get good talent. We should work to enable that.

I quote from here
"....Also there have been no steps by the Government to bring private institutions under the ambit of reservations."

"
In my view the "Race to Bottom" is real and limiting India's Growth Potentials.

The question here was not whether you should select x or y but only in widening your selections if you claim that you grew up in an atmosphere of complete non-discrimination of dalits, sc/st, etc. So long as you stick to the Sri Vaishnava identity and exclusivity it shows there is discrimination still working in your mind IMO.

I think which god to worship and how is a personnel choice, I'm okay with your explanation.

I think there is no point in discussing future developments as these are not relevant to our topic,

okay!

That would nullify your original claim of growing up without any discrimination, etc.

I only said, i had/have Dalit/Muslim friends with no ill will. With your view on eating/allowing in puja room, it did not happen.

I mentioned "killer doctors" since you referred to "In the society you are trying to build, a person who had never crossed 50% marks would end up being a Heart surgeon. When he opens up a patient for heart surgery, he may not know 50% of the parts in there (Just a Joke, I hope you see that with humor).
Wait, i'm not saying dalits are not good surgeons. I'm only saying the system you support leads a "Race to the Bottom"." Is it not an open admission that if a student secures only 50 percent marks, he will be capable of learning only 50 percent about the heart (or any aspect of medicine, engineering, etc.)? Though you try to cover it up as a joke, it reflects your mindset; you could very well have deleted it since there is no compulsion here that all posts should contain a joke. That was the reason why I referred to "killer doctors". You now choose to counter me as if I have done a mistake; that is not fair, to say the least.

Okay!

 

[happyhindu]

Suresoo,

Please let me know your views mentioned on this post (reproduced in maroon below): http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...ow-some-norms-ethics-forum-13.html#post52301:

If am not wrong, for SCs and STs, the required cut-off in the AIIMS entrance exam has never gone down below 70 percent.

I know of so-called 'upper-castes' (both Bs and NBs) who did not score beyond 50 percent in the AIIMS entrance from 1990 to 2001.

So, the SCs and STs who are getting admitted to AIIMS are obviously not the "lowest scores".

Am reminded of Dr.Yadulal from the "India Untouched" movie who questions the economically spoilt section (of upper castes) who get low marks and study on donations.

Why are we questioning the competance of those who study on reservations but do not question those who (fare much worse academically but) study on donations?


Also, please let me know which medical college admits students specifically for masters degree specialization in cardio thoracic surgery for 50 percent marks ? And how much difference exists, between marks required for upper caste students and SCs / STs, for cardio thoracic surgery ?

Thanks.

 

[RKB]

Honestly good percentage of Brahmins will do better without Reservation. But it is going to cost them more and they have to take some compromises. Also having Reservation is not going to shrink these avenues for us. A marginal increase in numbers of Brahmins getting the opportunity , though will not be phenomenal for the community, will mean very significantly for the poor Brahmins. This is certain because the rich Brahmins who have altered their life style in many ways will prefer paying more for their opportunities for institutions compatible to them. So, though Ms.Visalakshi Ramani is right, she is not correct in ignoring the under privileged. Also we are not going to eat the other's opportunities by demanding reservation. We are just going to get as to what we rightly deserve.

I have a feeling that we Brahmins as a culture ignore the under privileged. This is causing unbridgeable divide that makes other to easily split us for their advantage. A resolve to ensure 'all in our community should come up' has to be demonstrated today in Indian democracy for us to ensure a pride of position in the society. The pride we had as Brahmin in our days are not there with our grandchildren today. In fact they resent of being discriminated if they showed any tendency of exhibiting themselves. It is foolish to tell them that they should have scored 99.99 and not 95 to cover up our inability. Though you get them admission by way of management quota in private institutions, they are demoralized. It is pathetic to hear stories of the demoralized girl students of our community that has now become a regular feature. However I am not going to narrate any such stories here.

I have a connection with an association for teachers of private colleges. They have to fight odd against their management and the political / bureaucratic establishments. It is a non registered organization and it functions almost as an underground organization with patronage of some stalwarts. Most of the information I get (nothing a person of my age will like to hear) are from them. A Brahmin parent invariably indulges in illegal or immoral activities nowadays for the higher cost that they have to incur and they respond indifferently to moral issues nowadays. A parent, who is very popular auditor and who in a way is connected with the accounts of one of our prestigious mutt, shamelessly deliver a Guest Lecture stating that legally possible manipulations are possible only by a Brahmin CA. Are not we degenerating ourselves and also the society?

The higher education in Kerala is not same as in Tamilnadu. The value system are still intact even in government universities and colleges as per information reaching me. It is still better in MadhyaPradesh except for academic quality. But can we leave Tamilnadu to go to dogs just because certain better alternatives are available to us?

I am not suggesting cultural policing on our community. If somebody want orthodoxy to go from the face of this world, I approve of their right in seeking it. But nothing is possible if one is not clear of asserting their right in the democracy. Our Gods are the same God for the rest of the Hindus and so they can also support you only if you can make proper demand by proper prayer. Making not so sensible demands and prayers like 'Reservation System' has to go, this political family should suffer etc is not going to appease any God. Don't we need a political acumen of our own?

Shri RKB,


Yours is a very well-argued post. My appreciation for it. I think I wrote in this thread (?) that though I voted for reservations for brahmins, subsequently I got a doubt about its impact for brahmins after some very casual talks with my neighbours and colony-mates (who are TBs); the TBs here (in Kerala) do not at all seem to be eager for reservations and when I broached this topic to my friends, they said it will go against our interests; their main point was that as it is, the Bs in Kerala are getting more professional college opportunities than their percentage population would give, and by asking for reservation of college seats, we may be curtailing this. Demanding just job-reservations in govt. without asking for education will be a very weak argument.

So, I wrote on two occasions in this thread about the comparative position in TN. The first time some member gave an illustration of comparative percentages and argued that reservation was necessary, but I could not really understand the logic (I don't blame the member at all for this; I concede it is my non-familiarity with today's system of reservations and percentages, and how these are applied.) Lastly, I wrote in response to Smt. Visalakshi Ramani's post and she is in agreement with the view that reservations will not be beneficial.

Though I belong to the generation on the way out, to the best of my knowledge there was no occasion for me to oppose the reservation system; may be I and many people of my age who came into the higher education level in the late 1950's and to the job market in early 1960's did not face any serious difficulty in getting a govt./semi-govt. employment (although my particular case was different and I had to struggle a bit). Nor was there any strong opposition against reservations till lately when the NSS (Nair Service Society) seems to have taken it seriously. (These are my impressions and may be wrong. Knowledgeable members kindly correct me.) I completely agree with you that if the younger generation wants reservations, we should support that, no matter what we had done in the past.

I do not think, however,that the people who quote scriptures (I am included in this) are doing so to oppose the demand for reservations for brahmins, but only so far as to justify the reservations as a positive discrimination in favour of the down-trodden classes which is opposed by some members here who would like perfect egalitarian system to be introduced. This has been my understanding. If the various posts give the impression that those who oppose the "opposers" oppose reservation for brahmins also, I am not in that group. My basic doubt is whether reservations for brahmins (TBs) will really be beneficial to our youngsters getting more number of opportunities in admision to professional colleges. If some one can elucidate with statistics, I will be very grateful.

 

[RKB]

எட்டாதவை கிட்டாதென்பதல்ல என்பர் தொட்டனைத் தூறு பவர்.

Aim high on the one fly or you will shoot yourself.

Let us not kill the spirit of Priyas.

Dear Mr.G.M Priya,
There is a saying in Tamil which goes thus:
[FONT=comic sans ms,sans-serif]"இருப்பதை விட்டு விட்டு பறப்பதைப் பிடிப்பது!"
We will lose what we already have as well as what we wish to acquire!
with warm regards,
Visalakshi Ramani
[/FONT]

 

[sangom]

Honestly good percentage of Brahmins will do better without Reservation. But it is going to cost them more and they have to take some compromises. Also having Reservation is not going to shrink these avenues for us. A marginal increase in numbers of Brahmins getting the opportunity , though will not be phenomenal for the community, will mean very significantly for the poor Brahmins. This is certain because the rich Brahmins who have altered their life style in many ways will prefer paying more for their opportunities for institutions compatible to them. So, though Ms.Visalakshi Ramani is right, she is not correct in ignoring the under privileged. Also we are not going to eat the other's opportunities by demanding reservation. We are just going to get as to what we rightly deserve.

Shri RKB,

My doubt is about the portion in blue; since you are associated with a teachers' organization, you will be in a better position to clarify. My doubts are:

1. If a reservation package is given to brahmins (not "poor" brahmins alone, pl. note), will not the rich come first to get the benefit thereof if their wards qualify? What makes you think that the rich among brahmins will prefer paying more? AFAI can say, the rich among brahmins will not like to spend more if there is a cheaper alternative.

2. Just rich or not, those who score high will preempt the reserved quota and the students with low marks will again be losers, will it not happen?

A Brahmin parent invariably indulges in illegal or immoral activities nowadays for the higher cost that they have to incur and they respond indifferently to moral issues nowadays. A parent, who is very popular auditor and who in a way is connected with the accounts of one of our prestigious mutt, shamelessly deliver a Guest Lecture stating that legally possible manipulations are possible only by a Brahmin CA. Are not we degenerating ourselves and also the society?

The portion marked in blue seems to me to be a gross generalization and exaggeration. FYI, I may say that in one bank brahmins were predominantly the culprits in disciplinary proceedings having to do with money (not attendance, other indisciplines etc.,) and this was when there was no such capitation fees. So, let us not try to paint a picture as though brahmins were a very honest lot but for the capitation fees, etc.

The auditors' duty itself is to legally manipulate the accounts to get various benefits and the whole world knows it; so why should the auditor not express that? He was honest at least to that extent. Do you think anyone would approach an auditor who insists on being cen percent true and honest?

The higher education in Kerala is not same as in Tamilnadu. The value system are still intact even in government universities and colleges as per information reaching me. It is still better in MadhyaPradesh except for academic quality. But can we leave Tamilnadu to go to dogs just because certain better alternatives are available to us?

There is some lack of clarity bere, I feel. Are we talking about improving the value system in the higher education in TN or are we talking about reservation as the only way to survive in the demoralized atmosphere there? How is this "But can we leave Tamilnadu to go to dogs.." relevant?

I am not suggesting cultural policing on our community. If somebody want orthodoxy to go from the face of this world, I approve of their right in seeking it. But nothing is possible if one is not clear of asserting their right in the democracy. Our Gods are the same God for the rest of the Hindus and so they can also support you only if you can make proper demand by proper prayer. Making not so sensible demands and prayers like 'Reservation System' has to go, this political family should suffer etc is not going to appease any God. Don't we need a political acumen of our own?

Most of this para looks like obiter dicta to me. As to political acumen in a democracy, which is in effect the tyranny of the majority, a minuscule group like the brahmins have very little ability even if we resort to Naxalism. Even Kashmiri Pandits who reportedly constituted 15 percent of J&K population in 1941 did not stand a chance; so a 5 percent All-India brahmin population, that too widely distributed, will be severely limited in its ability to bring about any political pressure IMO. We should be realistic in this regard.

 

[RKB]

1 and 2: Even a Auto Driver is not sending his ward to Corporation schools offering free education in Chennai. At the same it is absolutely necessary that we should not shut out the door for rich with an attitude to mingle with the masses. Let them come. It is only the wards of political leaders who take seats in Anna University campus. They feel that it helps in molding them. If we get one percent, I will be happy if 10 percent of that one percent goes to such potential leaders of our community. But today let us make them work for it by demanding Reservation.

You are right. The propensity for committing immoral things is alarmingly high today. It has to be checked now. Auditors and lawyers suffer from bad image only now. They were revered in the past for their integrity.

Improving higher education or tamilnadu are all incidental in improving us. We should focus on improving us to gain capability to deliver good things to the society.Demanding Reservation can bring in the needed change more than the Reservation itself.

Jains and Parsis are doing well in spite of their numbers. In a democracy as in India, number alone does not matter. If the number are to our advantage, we go the way of the majority. If it is not, we have the way of the minority.

Shri RKB,

My doubt is about the portion in blue; since you are associated with a teachers' organization, you will be in a better position to clarify. My doubts are:

1. If a reservation package is given to brahmins (not "poor" brahmins alone, pl. note), will not the rich come first to get the benefit thereof if their wards qualify? What makes you think that the rich among brahmins will prefer paying more? AFAI can say, the rich among brahmins will not like to spend more if there is a cheaper alternative.

2. Just rich or not, those who score high will preempt the reserved quota and the students with low marks will again be losers, will it not happen?

The portion marked in blue seems to me to be a gross generalization and exaggeration. FYI, I may say that in one bank brahmins were predominantly the culprits in disciplinary proceedings having to do with money (not attendance, other indisciplines etc.,) and this was when there was no such capitation fees. So, let us not try to paint a picture as though brahmins were a very honest lot but for the capitation fees, etc.

The auditors' duty itself is to legally manipulate the accounts to get various benefits and the whole world knows it; so why should the auditor not express that? He was honest at least to that extent. Do you think anyone would approach an auditor who insists on being cen percent true and honest?

There is some lack of clarity bere, I feel. Are we talking about improving the value system in the higher education in TN or are we talking about reservation as the only way to survive in the demoralized atmosphere there? How is this "But can we leave Tamilnadu to go to dogs.." relevant?

Most of this para looks like obiter dicta to me. As to political acumen in a democracy, which is in effect the tyranny of the majority, a minuscule group like the brahmins have very little ability even if we resort to Naxalism. Even Kashmiri Pandits who reportedly constituted 15 percent of J&K population in 1941 did not stand a chance; so a 5 percent All-India brahmin population, that too widely distributed, will be severely limited in its ability to bring about any political pressure IMO. We should be realistic in this regard.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

"KITTAATHAAYIN VETTENE MARA!"

FORGET IMMEDIATELY WHAT YOU MAY NEVER GET!

"PERAASAI PERUM KEDU AAGAUM!"

EXCESS GREED WILL BREED EXCESS PROBLEMS!

It will be wise to remember these wise sayings!

 

[sangom]

1 and 2: Even a Auto Driver is not sending his ward to Corporation schools offering free education in Chennai. At the same it is absolutely necessary that we should not shut out the door for rich with an attitude to mingle with the masses. Let them come. It is only the wards of political leaders who take seats in Anna University campus. They feel that it helps in molding them. If we get one percent, I will be happy if 10 percent of that one percent goes to such potential leaders of our community. But today let us make them work for it by demanding Reservation.

Shri RKB,

This is my final attempt to get my points/doubts across to you please.

Are we talking here about corporation schools or professional colleges which, at any rate, levy fees from all the students? How is it that suddenly you bring in corporation schools in this? Even if an auto-driver does or does not send his ward to corporation schools, will that affect a rich Tamil brahmin (pl. note that I am here referring to TBs only) in deciding to send his ward to a professioanl college under the reserved quota? BTW, does not the reservation, as of now, apply to all professional colleges and will every college not have a sc/st candidate at least (coming through the reserved quota) thus compelling the rich brahmin's ward to study along with the sc/st? Are there institutions in which there is no reservation (except those of minorities)? Why are you then referring to Anna University alone?

You are right. The propensity for committing immoral things is alarmingly high today. It has to be checked now. Auditors and lawyers suffer from bad image only now. They were revered in the past for their integrity.

Income-tax came to India in 1860 and the first Companies Act in 1857. The requirement of a company auditor then surfaced and from 1866 formal qualification as auditor was prescribed. I do not know about those days and thereafter till 1961 when the Indian Income-tax Act came into being, but one RSA (Restricted State Auditor) whom I knew during the 1960's was doing the same work as CAs of today are called upon to do. Ever since the 1961 Act, the auditor's main job has been to help the employer in getting various concessions. I know a case in which a Chartered Accountants' firm furnished two different audited balance sheets and P&L accounts to the same company for the same date; this was in the 1970's. The case was, to the best of my knowledge taken up with the ICAI but nothing happened! So, I do not think there ever was a time when CAs could hope to be cent percent honest.

Improving higher education or tamilnadu are all incidental in improving us. We should focus on improving us to gain capability to deliver good things to the society.Demanding Reservation can bring in the needed change more than the Reservation itself.

No comments.

Jains and Parsis are doing well in spite of their numbers. In a democracy as in India, number alone does not matter. If the number are to our advantage, we go the way of the majority. If it is not, we have the way of the minority.

Jains have been and still are mostly a business-oriented community and their well-being is not dependent on the factors which are crucial for TBs. Parsis have had a very significant exodus to the west and very few are here. So, there is not much meaning in saying "they are doing well"; Parsis are doing well, but abroad, that is the truth. Anyway I do not oppose your idea of taking to "the way of the minority" which we are.

 

[nachi naga]

Dear Mr. Nachi Naga,

If all are born equal WHERE is the NEED for reservation??

With or Without reservation, we will all be still equal!!

As for the rest of your demands , they are Utopian dreams!

Why do you want to trade 40 percent for a mere 4 percent!
(These figures may not be correct, but the idea they convey is correct!)

with warm regards,
Visalakshi Ramani.

vr,

when i meant we all are equal,its by birth.by virtue of tradition or otherwise we differentiate amongst ourselves.we tag ourselves.just imagine,if we tag ourselves as Indians only,al this reservation is total bunkum.for political and religious leaders,unless such differentiation does not exist,they will be unable to rule.so,people will always be ruled by someone or the other.the smart one amongst us will triumph,no matter what his/her religion or caste or race is.today we bracket ourselves as tamil brahmin.we are tamilians first then only brahmins.we are indians first then only tamilians.like that globally.american first,then only english.

 

[RKB]

The human psychology seems to work only that way. My observation also prove it. The esteem of a person, I think, will come in to play for his decisions. May be you can approach other experts for explanation on such behavioral pattern. Such behaviors are not going to be permanent and they are also not absolute. That is why I suggested that we have to be magnanimous to accommodate aberrations.

I do accept that the profession of CA has brought more disrepute to our community then every other thing that has happened in the past. One of the mutt that used to integrate TBs by its financial power was brought down to shame by the auditors. All the mutts and Swamijis have a very smart auditors behind them. But I also know of auditors who have made a difference with their integrity. Most of such auditors did not practiced privately but were serving in Government offices or in Corporate houses. Such people held the profession of auditors with high esteem in 1970s and 80s. But they are now being marginalized. But we have to see whether a CA take up this issue from now and explain their profession. A great possibility exist for our community if these professionals changed their ways. therefore we have to address them in right spirit.

Each communities are different in their own way. But Jains and Parsis have proved that number doesn't matter has to be accepted as a fact. In some of the states the Jains have even managed to get Reservation by declaring a section of their community, I think Agarwals, as backward. May be TBs also should try it by demanding for a section of the TBs.

Shri RKB,

This is my final attempt to get my points/doubts across to you please.

Are we talking here about corporation schools or professional colleges which, at any rate, levy fees from all the students? How is it that suddenly you bring in corporation schools in this? Even if an auto-driver does or does not send his ward to corporation schools, will that affect a rich Tamil brahmin (pl. note that I am here referring to TBs only) in deciding to send his ward to a professioanl college under the reserved quota? BTW, does not the reservation, as of now, apply to all professional colleges and will every college not have a sc/st candidate at least (coming through the reserved quota) thus compelling the rich brahmin's ward to study along with the sc/st? Are there institutions in which there is no reservation (except those of minorities)? Why are you then referring to Anna University alone?

Income-tax came to India in 1860 and the first Companies Act in 1857. The requirement of a company auditor then surfaced and from 1866 formal qualification as auditor was prescribed. I do not know about those days and thereafter till 1961 when the Indian Income-tax Act came into being, but one RSA (Restricted State Auditor) whom I knew during the 1960's was doing the same work as CAs of today are called upon to do. Ever since the 1961 Act, the auditor's main job has been to help the employer in getting various concessions. I know a case in which a Chartered Accountants' firm furnished two different audited balance sheets and P&L accounts to the same company for the same date; this was in the 1970's. The case was, to the best of my knowledge taken up with the ICAI but nothing happened! So, I do not think there ever was a time when CAs could hope to be cent percent honest.

No comments.

Jains have been and still are mostly a business-oriented community and their well-being is not dependent on the factors which are crucial for TBs. Parsis have had a very significant exodus to the west and very few are here. So, there is not much meaning in saying "they are doing well"; Parsis are doing well, but abroad, that is the truth. Anyway I do not oppose your idea of taking to "the way of the minority" which we are.

 

[RKB]

Madam, of course all these things have been considered. Why don't you try to answer pointed questions on this issue then quoting verses. Of course I do not have an issue if you are right. The chances are that you can also be wrong.

You say "KITTAATHAAYIN VETTENE MARA!" and at the same time tell the student TBs should work hard to get in by their merit. You are contrasting yourself. Probably you are dejected for you feel that you will not see such benefits during your life time. But I request you to think of your responsibility for the posterity.

Why should Gandhiji did not followed the sayings that you quote and involved all of us in the freedom movement? Please don't mis quote good things to escape from your responsibility.

"KITTAATHAAYIN VETTENE MARA!"

FORGET IMMEDIATELY WHAT YOU MAY NEVER GET!

"PERAASAI PERUM KEDU AAGAUM!"

EXCESS GREED WILL BREED EXCESS PROBLEMS!

It will be wise to remember these wise sayings!

 

[sangom]

...Each communities are different in their own way. But Jains and Parsis have proved that number doesn't matter has to be accepted as a fact. In some of the states the Jains have even managed to get Reservation by declaring a section of their community, I think Agarwals, as backward. May be TBs also should try it by demanding for a section of the TBs.

Shri RKB,

Jains in general are considered OBC and also a minority community.

 

[Harini]

I have waited for long for response to my earlier post...

Among TBs, Iyengars will have a fit case for Reservation. As converts to a larger extent by general belief, that will support the case. But this type of partial request will further reduce our number.

In some of the states the Jains have even managed to get Reservation by declaring a section of their community, I think Agarwals, as backward. May be TBs also should try it by demanding for a section of the TBs.