Reservation for Brahmins

[nachi naga]

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Iyest

Without getting personal,if at all anyone has done well for Tambrahms,its our religious leaders.Without their tacit blessings,our race in Tamizh Nadu would not exist.I have mingled with worst cretins of non-brahmins who have ridiculed my brahmin brothers and sisters,on the advice of DMK leaders,and today owing to my friendship these non-brahmins have all become friends of my brahmin brothers and sisters.Yes,i sacrificed my sastras sampradays for the sake of larger good for my Tambrahm community not expecting in return from anybody and i was protected by my religious leaders.Reservation is important for Tambrahms,for future generation its neccessary,even though personally i hate reservation or profiling of any nature and only merit shud be the criteria,in any field.Because of the baggage that we carry from past generation or past centuries,we do need to make amends for non-brahmins.The present lot of leaders do not see the endless cycle of viciousness that they create,by reservation.But who is to bell the cat.Knowledge being distributed is good,what Indians are clamoring today is comfort from harsh living condition.Its not the goverments job to provide arisi thuni veedu,its every Indians duty to work and earn it.

 

[Iyest]

Iyest

Without getting personal,if at all anyone has done well for Tambrahms,its our religious leaders.Without their tacit blessings,our race in Tamizh Nadu would not exist.I have mingled with worst cretins of non-brahmins who have ridiculed my brahmin brothers and sisters,on the advice of DMK leaders,and today owing to my friendship these non-brahmins have all become friends of my brahmin brothers and sisters. .

In our village we are the only brahmin family left. So all our friends are from different communities. I don't even think along those lines. Get reminded of it by the government and sometimes on this forum.

Yes,i sacrificed my sastras sampradays for the sake of larger good for my Tambrahm community not expecting in return from anybody and i was protected by my religious leaders..

Very good. Sampradayas evolve and are not cast in stone anyway.

Because of the baggage that we carry from past generation or past centuries,we do need to make amends for non-brahmins. .

Every group has a baggage whether it is from 5000 years or 5 years. These 'amends' are only to get over a feeling of collective guilt. What has been done was wrong and cannot be undone no matter what we do. Certainly not by creating another wrong to a different group. Giving another x% to an already well to do BC group is hardly the right course of action. It has been done due to political opportunism to get votes.

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Its not the goverments job to provide arisi thuni veedu,its every Indians duty to work and earn it.

This is not correct. It IS the government's job to help the helpless from all groups. After all, government collects taxes from all. They don't have to directly provide food and shelter but they have an obligation to assist the needy. Otherwise we could all stop paying taxes. As it is, the funds are going mainly to help the political leaders amass huge fortunes.

 

[sathiya1979]

Those securing good marks and merits should be given preference in all aspects. Brahmins are being isolated by caste and being kept below par when it comes to open competition.

 

[RKB]

The 'hole' truth

... rvr,

when you glance back at the past 100 years, each time there is a hole in the dyke, our folks have found that hole, and used it to their advantage

initially one or two does it. words of mouth gets through to the others. there is no organized frenzy but an informal mass exodus to new opportunities.

that is why, i am always confused, when folks here demand reservation for tamil brahmins. for other brahmins in other states, it may be legitimate. for us, do we care?

The truth is that the TBs are made desperate now to look for hole in the wall(dyke). If you do not find it, you have to make one. Reservation is about making that hole. For the diaspora it is about strengthening their root. Today those who migrate seldom stay abroad for long. Those days are gone.

 

[kunjuppu]

The truth is that the TBs are made desperate now to look for hole in the wall(dyke). If you do not find it, you have to make one. Reservation is about making that hole. For the diaspora it is about strengthening their root. Today those who migrate seldom stay abroad for long. Those days are gone.

rkb,

i am a little confused by above.

you say that those TBs who are going abroad seldom stay long. are you talking of those migrating to the US, Canada or Australia? or to the mid east? or those that work for organizations like TCS and go away on short assignments?

either way, i would presume, that these folks are well off and would not need the assistance of the government. i can see a rationale for poor TBs in tamil nadu getting some benefit out of reservations.

it is my personal belief, that where there is drive and ambition, there is enough support coming from within the community itself to help a youth move up in life. i may be wrong here though.

 

[RKB]

போனவன் போனான்டி

rkb,


you say that those TBs who are going abroad seldom stay long. are you talking of those migrating to the US, Canada or Australia? or to the mid east? or those that work for organizations like TCS and go away on short assignments?

it is my personal belief, that where there is drive and ambition, there is enough support coming from within the community itself to help a youth move up in life. i may be wrong here though.

The diaspora is very fluid everywhere and it is now not like what use to be 30 or 40 years ago when it is the case of "போனவன் போனான்டி". Since migration is happening across all communities in Tamilnadu, the rest of the communities in fact bother about being connected with the root.

TBs everywhere should try to make that hole in the wall of TN politics to gain entry.

 

[Vijayalakshmi]

Only the last leftover for Brahmins!

This is something that happened in a ninth standard classroom.

As I was selecting students for an important inter school competition, a girl rose and said, "Miss... my mother says that our community students should be given first preference in everything and Brahmins should take only the last chance". Since I did not wanted this to degenerate as a ugly discussion inside the class, I told her that she is selected in the team. Later she came with another boy and demanded in the staff room that she is not interested in being teamed with any Brahmin students and hence will choose her own team. The boy also told that his parents has advised him to avoid Brahmins.

I am not going to tell as to how this issue got resolved. But this incident is just an example as to how Reservation is being misused to create hatred by family members of the communities benefiting from it. Ours is a school run by orthodox Brahmin management and often we find being arm twisted by parents on this issue. Now even the students have gained audacity to cross teachers and the really meritorious Brahmin students fall victim to this lobby as they are loosing their opportunities. Their parents also express fear to rake up this issue and so are ready to digest the matter. But their wards develop dislike on this prevailing social order and .... what will this do to their future?

This certainly is not an isolated matter. This should be happening in every class room and every school across Tamilnadu. Our management will not like me making it a case for discussion in a forum for they do not want to spoil the relation that they enjoy with the ruling family! Therefore it is impossible for now to make the world realize as to what the reality is about Brahmins after Reservation policies. I feel that a high pitched demand for Reservation for our community alone can stem the rot.

 

[Iyest]

This is something that happened in a ninth standard classroom.

As I was selecting students for an important inter school competition, a girl rose and said, "Miss... my mother says that our community students should be given first preference in everything and Brahmins should take only the last chance". .

One option might have been to tell the student that she would also be given the first chance in gardening, cleaning the classroom etc and whether she was ok with the policy.

Since I did not wanted this to degenerate as a ugly discussion inside the class, I told her that she is selected in the team. .

Unfortunately this will increase such demands in the future. Both the child and the parents will now feel their discriminatory views are correct!

Later she came with another boy and demanded in the staff room that she is not interested in being teamed with any Brahmin students and hence will choose her own team. The boy also told that his parents has advised him to avoid Brahmins. .

News spreads fast! One option might be to ask them whether they would like to avoid brahmin teachers as well and find a different school.

.

I am not going to tell as to how this issue got resolved. But this incident is just an example as to how Reservation is being misused to create hatred by family members of the communities benefiting from it..

I am not sure of this conclusion. It seems another example of the Brahmin community buckling under fear. A community that crawls when it is asked to bend is clearly too weak to survive.


.

Ours is a school run by orthodox Brahmin management and often we find being arm twisted by parents on this issue. Now even the students have gained audacity to cross teachers and the really meritorious Brahmin students fall victim to this lobby as they are loosing their opportunities. Their parents also express fear to rake up this issue and so are ready to digest the matter. But their wards develop dislike on this prevailing social order and .... what will this do to their future? .

All for the good. Just explain to them they have no future in this state and plan their future outside the state/country. Otherwise their children will face the same attitude or even worse.

.

I feel that a high pitched demand for Reservation for our community alone can stem the rot.

A weak community with small numbers cannot make high pitched demands. Instead of chasing such illusions energy must be spent in a planned migration. Even animals and birds migrate when the environment is not favourable, I am assuming brahmins have enough common sense to do that. Time needs to be more usefully spent in helping each other and preserving their culture after migration.

 

[kunjuppu]

..A weak community with small numbers cannot make high pitched demands. Instead of chasing such illusions energy must be spent in a planned migration. Even animals and birds migrate when the environment is not favourable, I am assuming brahmins have enough common sense to do that. Time needs to be more usefully spent in helping each other and preserving their culture after migration.

iyest,

i think of late, the brahmin migration has just been that. ie to provide a better environment for their children.

but i get mixed messages here. on one hand, i see folks here, saying that the days of permanent migration abroad are over. there is a call to come back. come back to what? i wonder.

those callers for coming back, i think, think in terms of india as a punya bhoomi, and it is the duty of all bharatvasis to return to resort mother india to its proper glory position in the world.

then there are others who are coming back, because they lost their jobs in the west. but these come back with a foreign passport, knowing very well, they are beyond they petty insults of day to day living in tamil nadu.

no matter how you look at it, the concept of wilful de-brahminization of tamil nadu is a sad affair. eventually there will be losers on all sides. but that should not preclude our current generation from doing what is in their best interest.

it is the sum total of our best interest, that forms the total summa for the entire community. demanding reservation is going to be heard in deaf ears. one way out is to recognize poor brahmins as a deserving exception, but that needs a political acumen on the part of the TB community, which so far, we have not exhibited.

we reap what our ancestors have sown. it is a sad fact that even in this forum the identity stressed is brahminism, india, hinduism in that order. very seldom tamil nadu is mentioned, except in terms of discrimination against us.

i sense a non brahmin tamil more at ease with not only another non brahmin hindu, but a tamil muslim or christian. such is our own sense of separation from what should be our own roots.

emigration, where possible, is a good solution. a good way to damage control. the leftovers, hopefully even fewer in number can be dealt with eventually.

 

[Iyest]

iyest,

but i get mixed messages here. on one hand, i see folks here, saying that the days of permanent migration abroad are over. there is a call to come back. come back to what? i wonder. .

I think there are two distinct phases in life that the brahmin community is handling. They seem to be handling it well so far. The first phase is higher (college) education, employment and economic stability. After that has been achieved, the second phase is post retirement. People who come back to TN for good generally belong to the second phase. Even if they have children in school they have the economic means and foreign residency so that their children are not discriminated against by government policies. Therefore, we can understand why they come back. Besides, school education is ok and children imbibe cultural values while growing up.

.

those callers for coming back, i think, think in terms of india as a punya bhoomi, and it is the duty of all bharatvasis to return to resort mother india to its proper glory position in the world..

It is all 'maya'. There is no better way to shatter maya than to experience first hand that the country has indeed degenerated into a moral cesspool. It is so easily accomplished generally within 15 minutes of stepping out of the plane!


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one way out is to recognize poor brahmins as a deserving exception, but that needs a political acumen on the part of the TB community, which so far, we have not exhibited. .

Let us try to do it as individuals instead of waiting for political leadership. Each person can help the community in so many ways. Why not help a youngster migrate abroad? Why not marry into a poor family? These are simple acts that could be done without waiting for anyone.

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we reap what our ancestors have sown. .

Wow!! Let us not degrade all our ancestors in one go. Apparently the constant propaganda has seeped in to our consciousness deeply even without our knowledge.

 

[sapthajihva]

...
we reap what our ancestors have sown. it is a sad fact that even in this forum the identity stressed is brahminism, india, hinduism in that order. very seldom tamil nadu is mentioned, except in terms of discrimination against us.

...

shri kunjuppu, apologies for selectively choosing from your ocean of thoughts metamorphed into words...:madgrin:

we reap what we sow; but the onus is on the individual... karma is on the individual and not as a group.

probably we were among those negligent brahmanas of yore who strayed the way... that we are born in a society that h(a)unts us...

regards,

 

[RKB]

Don't run away please

When birds and animals migrate, they do en mass and thus they never loose status anywhere and thus migration for them is bidirectional. When seeds disperse from plants, it only increases the probability of their survival. But neither happens to TBs who run away. They see mirage as green pasture thus seriously diminishing their survival probability. When Tibetians could migrate en mass making Dharmastala a mini Tibet, they ensure their survival probability. When Srilankan Tamil disperse, they also ensured enhancement of their survival probability. TBs are self killing than healing the wound by their act!

What is stated to have happened in the class room is happening to all the Indians in Australia. America is also not going to acknowledge the superiority of TBs in any future. TBs should never justify their migration happening out of their desperation.

 

[Iyest]

When birds and animals migrate, they do en mass and thus they never loose status anywhere and thus migration for them is bidirectional. .

It is NOT unconditionally bidirectional. The reverse migration only takes place AFTER the environment has changed more favourably in their place of departure. By more rain, warmer/colder weather etc. As for "en mass", they don't need visas and are not constrained by the seating capacities of airplanes.


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When Tibetians could migrate en mass making Dharmastala a mini Tibet, they ensure their survival probability. .

Same is true of Brahmins in many surburbs of London, New York etc.

.

What is stated to have happened in the class room is happening to all the Indians in Australia. .

But it is illegal and action will be taken and has been taken also. No brahmin teacher needs to buckle under the threat of a minor. More importantly, even if it happens it affects "all Indians", not just brahmins selectively.

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America is also not going to acknowledge the superiority of TBs in any future. .

Nobody is talking of "superiority" here.

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TBs should never justify their migration happening out of their desperation.

Migration is a natural phenomenon and need not be "justified" to anybody. Nobody can be condemned to live and suffer in their little town or village of birth. That would make the ostrich look brilliant by comparison.

 

[kunjuppu]

Wow!! Let us not degrade all our ancestors in one go. Apparently the constant propaganda has seeped in to our consciousness deeply even without our knowledge.

iyerst,

thank you for your kind response. i do realize that this is a contentious issue and probably vast majority of the members would disagree with me. which is ok

i say it is ok, because it is a 'looking back for the root cause' approach, which under the current circumstances does not serve any positive purpose to our community, but only furthers our dissensions to our more disadvantage.

should we consider our ancestors as saints, so be it. it does not change one iorta of the realities of today.

nevertheless, i think, you would agree that our attitudes re ourselves, our society, caste and community, is to a large extent formed by our tamil brahmin heritage. on the surface of it, it would appear that this heritage appears to be watered down by the dynamism of modern society.

however, i think, you would only have to scratch the surface of many a TB, to find that though the brahmin might be away from the brahmin-centred society, you cannot take the brahminism away from him.

i read with interest the several calls for hindu unity in other threads. but on dwelling further into it, the calls appear more as a reaction to the inroads made on hinduism by islam & christianity. and not out of any inborn sense of reformism.

if at all anything is said about reformism, it was in the context of ramanuja converting non brahmins to the brahmn fold, and how the iyengars were still 'struggling' with the consequence of the same, several centuries later.

though very dense, i have slowly come to understand the deep seated fear of abrahmization of the hindu way of life ie without castes we would not be able to differentiate ourselves from the other religions. it is what makes us unique, for all that is worth.

that this stratification due to castes is completely against the modern prevalent trend of absolute equality before all - something which started in 1789 in france and still extending its talons across suppressed societies of the world - causes to some of us a discomfort, and to others a pain due to perceived loss of a certain beautiful order. atleast that is the way these latter see it. i disagree with that, but i respect it.

the abrahamization of hinduism is something that we may not be able to prevent, taking into account the mingling of the castes and creeds together in the workplace and the hormones appear not to discriminate between these very divisions.

to some of us this is immaterial. i think of renuka karthikeyan, in this forum, acknowledgedly born and living beyond caste, and yet a devoted, committed and erudite follower of sanathana dharma. maybe it is upto the renukas of this world that we need to look upto as models, and not our ancestors.

hope this explains where i was coming from.

thanks again.

 

[RVR]

What is the percentage of Brahmins in Tamilnadu in total population. If reservation is accorded according to the proportion of TB population in education and employment is it ok?

All the best

 

[Nara]

Dear Ms. Vijayalakshmi,

IMO, in a ninth grade class all students must be encouraged to participate in activities that they are interested in. Why select some and leave behind others? Is this inter-school competition the only worthwhile activity that everyone aspires for? If that is so, then the school faculty and administration must take a hard look at what their mission is.

But, you were the one in the front line. With the class looking on you had to make a difficult decision and nobody can fault you for your decision to select the child without overt hesitation even though you had deep misgivings.

It is interesting to see the child is taught to draw the line with Brahmins, even though nearly all, if not all, the caste based atrocities reported in the media are perpetrated by the upper caste NBs. This must give TBs pause. It does not help anyone to just dismiss this as mere propaganda. We reject inconvenient truths as propaganda at our peril.

As you say, what you are experiencing in your class is not unique to your class, it is a wide spread phenomenon. The root causes of the predicament forced upon you, and countless other hapless teachers on the front line, are embedded in our religious and cultural psyche. You had to face the inevitable consequences of this broken caste system.

What goes up comes down eventually. Our great leaders of modern India, from Gokhale to Gandhi, did not bother to engineer a safe-landing. One consequence of that is this classroom encounter.

These are important and vexing issues and there is nobody in sight who is interested in an honest appraisal and bold leadership. One glaring example of what could be, and unfortunately not, is the great TB intellectual Cho. I greatly enjoy his hilarious political commentary. But his talent and charisma are wasted when he serves up apologies for caste and weaves a web of Vedic glory with which no present day problems TBs face can be solved.

The effect of this colossal failure of TB intellectuals and religious leaders will be felt with increasing severity in the years to come. The point of no return will be soon at hand.

The problems TBs face is mainly in the economic arena. If they choose to live as a Brahmin is supposed to, as laid down in the Shashthras, there will be no problem with reservation. No Veda patashala will turn a TB away. But what TBs want is not Veda Patashala, they want B.E. and MBBS.

Mass migration is a solution, but mass migration to where? Where ever the TBs go, giving up their caste and culture is just a matter of time. Instead, if the religious and intellectual leaders can act in the best interest of the masses, who look up to them, and get rid of caste, nothing more will be lost compared to mass migration. The ex-TBs get to not migrate, live in TN, and enjoy their culture as open, compassionate, and honorable people.

Cheers!

 

[Iyest]

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Kunjuppu, we are just exchanging views. No need to be worried whether somebody disagrees or not.

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should we consider our ancestors as saints, so be it. it does not change one iorta of the realities of today. .

Our ancestors were not saints but were certainly not the ogres that some are trying to make out of them.

.

nevertheless, i think, you would agree that our attitudes re ourselves, our society, caste and community, is to a large extent formed by our tamil brahmin heritage. on the surface of it, it would appear that this heritage appears to be watered down by the dynamism of modern society. .

Seems true.


.

though very dense, i have slowly come to understand the deep seated fear of abrahmization of the hindu way of life ie without castes we would not be able to differentiate ourselves from the other religions. it is what makes us unique, for all that is worth..

Caste by any other name is still the same tool of discrimination. Other religions have their own cross to carry.

.

that this stratification due to castes is completely against the modern prevalent trend of absolute equality before all - something which started in 1789 in france and still extending its talons across suppressed societies of the world .

Equality is the fundamental 'maya' that has taken hold of humans in recent history. It is not to be actually seen anywhere but hope still remains. Anyway it is off topic.

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causes to some of us a discomfort, and to others a pain due to perceived loss of a certain beautiful order. atleast that is the way these latter see it. i disagree with that, but i respect it. .

Yes, indeed. It has always been true in human history that the suppressors feel they are preserving order while the suppressed feel it is inequality.

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i think of renuka karthikeyan, in this forum, acknowledgedly born and living beyond caste, and yet a devoted, committed and erudite follower of sanathana dharma. maybe it is upto the renukas of this world that we need to look upto as models, and not our ancestors. .

True. But no need to assume this did not happen in the past and find fault with our ancestors. Viswamitra was a kshatriya by birth and he became a 'brahma rishi' no less and accepted by the highest brahmins. By highlighting selective examples one can either find fault or find justifications for all the deeds of our ancestors. Let us keep a balanced view.

 

[nachi naga]

it's so nice to see renuka karthikeyan being nominated as a role model for all sanathana dharma adherents and NOT our ancestor's of India.Incidentally kunjuppu is a canadian and renuka is a malaysian,who practice sanathana dharma in judeo-christian dominated religion's of their respective countries.hope our rishi's can now rest in peace,tathasthu !

 

[Nara]

....if at all anything is said about reformism, it was in the context of ramanuja converting non brahmins to the brahmn fold, .....

K, While I have no disagreement with the main thrust of your post, I have to say there is no evidence to show Ramanuja converted NBs to B. Ramanuja was indeed a great reformer as he brought B and NBs together under the SV umbrella. For that he will remain the brightest star among Brahmins, but from what I can see, he did not think NBs will have to become Bs to achieve moksham.

Cheers

 

[nachi naga]

nara

K, While I have no disagreement with the main thrust of your post, I have to say there is no evidence to show Ramanuja converted NBs to B.

i think there is evidence,that kshatriyas,vaishyas,shudras,became brahmanas and called themselves as sri vaishnavas.R was good guru.

Ramanuja was indeed a great reformer as he brought B and NBs together under the SV umbrella. For that he will remain the brightest star among Brahmins, but from what I can see, he did not think NBs will have to become Bs to achieve moksham.

Cheers

on the one hand you write there is no evidence,and then you write he brought B and NB under SV,NB can be B only if they were converted or no?is this what is called as oxymoron?pray plz enlighten me sir?oh sir,btw how do you see, what R did or did not do? or even know ,what R
thought? that NB's will not have to be B for moksham?has anyone who had moksham come back and told us....எங்கயோ உத கிரடே, ஒன்னுமே புரியலியே ,ஒரே கொழப்பமா இருகே.

 

[kunjuppu]

...
Equality is the fundamental 'maya' that has taken hold of humans in recent history. It is not to be actually seen anywhere but hope still remains. Anyway it is off topic...

.

iyest,

pray do not treat the quest towards equality as off topic.

right through milleniums, society has been stratified in one form or another, across the world. this is to my best of knowledge.

the very first time, when calls for destruction of the upper echelons was successfully carried out was during the french revolution. this marked the beginning of dawn of hope not only for the underdogs, but also those caught in-between.

interestingly, the driving force behind changes are not the underclass, but the fourth or fifth estates who are often fed up with the arrogance of the ruling or priestly class.

ambedkar might have been an exception but lenin, mao and periyar were all from comfortable background, and who had not only insight but knew how the system worked.

the revolution of MK (and copied by lallu) is to enfranchise the next lower rung of the ladder. revolutions, by their very nature, swallow their own children and within two generations get corrupted.

it happened in russia, china, tamil nadu. wonder how long the iranian revolution will hold power. this, i agree, is off topic no more said.

 

[Iyest]

right through milleniums, society has been stratified in one form or another, across the world. this is to my best of knowledge. .

Yes. And it is bound to remain stratified. Maya will not ever become reality.

.

the very first time, when calls for destruction of the upper echelons was successfully carried out was during the french revolution. this marked the beginning of dawn of hope not only for the underdogs, but also those caught in-between..

No destruction or construction can create equality. They can only create new or modified inequalities.

 

[nachi naga]

mind is the cause of equality and inequaity,liberate the mind and obtain moksham.from liberation of mind,live happy and peacefully the sanathana dharma way of prema sathya ananda dharma shanthi ahimsa,which India is doing already.sathyameva jayate.

 

[happyhindu]

No destruction or construction can create equality. They can only create new or modified inequalities.

Agree with this. It already has created modified inequalities. i suppose it might create further inequalities which might be considered equality by some and inequality by others...

life was never meant to be equitable to all....there are several NB bystanders who too paid a price for the inequalities of the reservation system...they too wonder what was their fault..

 

[RVR]

Agree with this. It already has created modified inequalities. i suppose it might create further inequalities which might be considered equality by some and inequality by others...

life was never meant to be equitable to all....there are several NB bystanders who too paid a price for the inequalities of the reservation system...they too wonder what was their fault..

There will be in equalities which could not be avoided. But at the same time there should be attempt to reduce in equalities on a voluntary basis.

Spiritual mindset will definitely reduce inequalities.

Home grown `Progressive economic theory' by P R Sarkar may be answer to the present problems facing not only India but also the whole world.

Home of PROUT

Western world including USA and Europe are facing financial crisis. India is facing `Naxalite' problems.

Let us hope that earnest attempt to reduce inequalities on voluntary basis by individuals will reduce the tensions to a great extent.

All the best