Self respect movement

[renuka]

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It also needs to be highlighted that such right of free entry from opposite school is not available in many forums. TB is just a rare example.

I would not be wrong if I were to modify you line to :It also needs to be highlighted that such right of free entry from opposite school is not available in many forums. TB is the ONLY example.

 

[vgane]

I would not be wrong if I were to modify you line to :It also needs to be highlighted that such right of free entry from opposite school is not available in many forums. TB is the ONLY example.

This free exchange & dialogue that is allowed in our forum reinforces the maturity of our forum,,,Honesty & Transparency are the other bulwarks

 

[renuka]

This free exchange & dialogue that is allowed in our forum reinforces the maturity of our forum,,,Honesty & Transparency are the other bulwarks

Let me rephrase that too:

This free exchange & dialogue that is allowed in our forum reinforces the TOLERANCE of our forum,,,Honesty & Transparency are the other bulwarks

 

[vgane]

Let me rephrase that too:

This free exchange & dialogue that is allowed in our forum reinforces the TOLERANCE of our forum,,,Honesty & Transparency are the other bulwarks

Dear Renuka Ji,
I am slightly rephrasing as follows:
This free exchange & dialogue that is allowed in our forum reinforces the TOLERANCE & MATURITY of our forum,,,Honesty & Transparency are the other bulwarks

Without maturity appreciating diverse opinion shall not happen

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka Ji,
I am slightly rephrasing as follows:
This free exchange & dialogue that is allowed in our forum reinforces the TOLERANCE & MATURITY of our forum,,,Honesty & Transparency are the other bulwarks

Without maturity appreciating diverse opinion shall not happen

Actually I feel if all of us were in front of each other it would be like a parliament scene like how MLA's(MP's) fight.
We are escaping all fist fights and blows cos we are sitting miles apart!!
That's why we SEEM Relatively Mature and Tolerant!!LOL

 

[KRS]

Dear brother Nara Ji,

You said:

I am not asking anybody to change their view overnight. Just read what EVR wrote, and the times in which he wrote what he wrote. If you still think he was a hateful thug, so be it. It is telling that even mentioning a widely used, but over the top term, could be seen as mocking, but on the other foot, even the most insulting words used against EVR are kosher.

Yes, brother, I have read his writings in detail. Yes, on a lot of things that affected our society, he was a visionary. I have already said that.

The issue is not that. If you erase what he said about us as a community, and about the Hindu religion, he probably would be heralded as the saint that you want all of us to consider him to be. But alas, that has not been the case.

You are coming at him from an atheist perspective. So, when he smashes a Vinayaga idol, or garlands a Rama image with chappals or burns up our books of Maha Bharatha and Ramayana or interprets them with vulgarity, it resonates with you. But I consider these as violence, no worse than his followers' actions of cutting the kudumys and the poonal etc.

I can post here all sorts of his writings against the Brahmins, but, I don't want to. Because, you are not playing fair.

My simple question to you is this. Do you believe that the Brahmins as a class wantonly and actively plotted and pursued a deliberate policy to keep all other Varnas inferior to them from the advent of the Sanathana Dharma till the Britishers came? And do you believe that the TN Brahmins are foreigners (Aryans) even though they have been living in TN for 2000 years or more. Because, in my opinion, this is the crux of EVR's ideology.

The man starts with this and heaps hatred against a 3% of the Tamils, even saying that if that population is destroyed and if the opposite side loses the same %, they still have 94% intact. I can quote many other similar 'bombastic' things he had said.

As Sri KB Ji has put it correctly, we don't need to 'prove' that he said these things from some academic records. We know what he said and what he meant. The onus is on you to prove that he loved the Brahmin community and insisted on its survival.

You know, when you joined this Forum, I asked you a question - whether you have in your heart the best interest of our community. You responded in the affirmative. But the way you have been promoting this person who had nothing but hatred of our community in his heart, just makes me sad.

Regards,
KRS

 

[renuka]

Dear brother Nara Ji,


You know, when you joined this Forum, I asked you a question - whether you have in your heart the best interest of our community. You responded in the affirmative. But the way you have been promoting this person who had nothing but hatred of our community in his heart, just makes me sad.

Regards,
KRS

Dont worry dear KRSJi,

Thats why before EVR, Lord Krishna came and said :

sukha dukhe same’ kritva labha labhou jaya jayou
tatho yuddhaya yujyasva naivam papam avapsyasi


So what you waiting for??? get up and fight!!

 

[KRS]

Fight with who and how, dear Sister?

Regards,
KRS

Dont worry dear KRSJi,

Thats why before EVR, Lord Krishna came and said :

sukha dukhe same’ kritva labha labhou jaya jayou
tatho yuddhaya yujyasva naivam papam avapsyasi


So what you waiting for??? get up and fight!!

 

[renuka]

Fight with who and how, dear Sister?

Regards,
KRS

Ok I give you 3 options:

1)Dvaita option: He is different and separate hence have no second thoughts to fight.

2)Vishishtadvaita option: He is essentially the same as me..So how to fight one's own kinsmen?
This is where Geeta Upadesham comes in and then next step is see below:

3)Advaita option: I am fighting with Myself...So its the battle of one senses eventually.

 

[BostonSankara]

The TN Brahmin <-> Aryan connection seems incredibly hard to swallow. I don't believe it at all and it honestly with the low cost of genealogical DNA testing available these days it should not really be a hard myth to destroy.

 

[Nara]

Opinions are opinions, it cannot go very far. Only if opinions are backed up with some reference, some evidence, they deserves consideration. This is what I am providing, and the rest want to live in their world of opinion, satisfied in the principle perception is reality, no evidence needed, no need to look closely, we believe what we believe and that is good enough. This is what makes me sad.

Alright, there is one charge that has been made repeatedly, that EVR was out to destroy all Brahmins, i.e. either drive all of them out of Tamil Nadu, or I suppose kill them all. The absurdity of this charge is so self evident I am really surprised this is being presented as a serious argument. Anyway, EVR himself took up this question of eradicating Brahminism seen as eradicating Brahmins several times. I give below a small part of a hard hitting article he wrote about this issue. (I cleaned up even this small excerpt a little bit because I am trying not to offend the sentiments of proud Brahmins)

பிராமணீயத்தை ஒழிப்பது என்பதை நாம் எந்தக் கருத்தின் பேரில் தொடங்கினோம் என்றால் நம்மைவிடப் பார்ப்பனன் உயர்ந்தவன் என்று எண்ணுவதும் ....சாஸ்திரங்களையும், ...சுருதிகளையும், ....ஆகமங்களையும் நம்புகிற மூடநம்பிக்கையும், நம்மை விட்டு அகற்றுவதும், நம்மைவிடப் பஞ்சமன் என்பவன் தாழ்ந்தவன் என்று எண்ணுவதை ஒழிப்பதுமாகிய தத்துவத்தைத்தான் முதன்மையாகக் கருதித் தொடங்கினோமேயல்லாமல் வேறல்ல.

உதாரணமாக, பார்ப்பனனை நாம் ஏன் 'சுவாமி" என்று கூப்பிடவேண்டும்? அவனைக்கண்டால் நாம் தான் முதலில் கும்பிட வேண்டும் என்கிற மனப்பான்மை நம்மிடத்தில் ஏன் இருக்கவேண்டும்? பார்ப்பனரும் ஏன் அதை எதிர்பார்க்க வேண்டும்? அவனுக்குப் பணம் கொடுப்பதும் சாப்பாடு போடுவதும் புண்ணியம் என்று ஏன் நாம் நினைக்கவேண்டும்? இது போன்ற பல உயர்வுகள், நம் போன்ற நம்மிலும் பல வழிகளில் தாழ்ந்தவனாயிருக்கிறவனுக்கு பார்ப்பனனாக பிறந்தான் என்கிற காரணத்திற்காக ஏன் கொடுக்கவேண்டும்?

அல்லாமலும் நம்மைவிட எந்தவிதத்திலும் தாழ்மையில்லாதவனையும் நம்மிலும் பலவிதத்தில் உயர்குணங்கள் கொண்டவனையும் போலிப் பிறவி காரணமாக நாம் ஏன் தாழ்ந்தவன் என்று சொல்லவேண்டும்? அவன் நம்மை கும்பிடும்படி ஏன் எதிர்பார்க்கவேண்டும்? ஒருவனை தொட்டால் தோஷம் என்று நாம் ஏன் நினைக்கவேண்டும்? ஆகிய இப்பேர்ப்பட்டதான அஞ்ஞானத்தை, மூடநம்பிக்கையை, கொடுமையை, அகம்பாவத்தை, கொலை பாதகத்தை, வஞ்சகத் தத்துவத்தை ஒழிப்பதல்லாமல் .... பார்ப்பனர் மேல் துவேஷங்கொண்டு செய்வதல்ல என்பதை உறுதியாய்த் தெரிவித்துக் கொள்ளுகிறோம்.

He wrote this 85 years ago, how far have the Brahmins come in these years? Not very far. They have lost their political and economic dominance and therefore have become irrelevant in the public sphere, but that was not due to their own effort or wish. If they truly desired reform they could have tried in their private lives, a sphere where they have total control. Brahmins have a long way yet to go. This makes me sad.

The history of Brahminical dominance, whether they wantonly pursued it or not, subjugated the masses with the help and connivance of other upper castes. How far back does this go, right up to the ascendency of Pallava empire in Tamil Nadu. We have discussed these topics many times in the past. Many research findings have been presented ranging from mtDNA studies to court records to whatever else. It is clear from all these studies that Brahminism has been the ruling establishment power at least for 1000 years in Tamil Nadu. Brahmins either ruled directly, or ruled as top ministers. Even Tippu Sultan surrounded himself with Brahmin ministers.

I strongly feel paying attention to what EVR said, without getting mired in his hard hitting rhetorical flourishes, and seriously reforming Brahminism is the best way to preserve Brahmin community. Take a leaf out of the reform Jews. Welcome everyone into your fold. Go for inter-caste marriage and preserve your Brahmin culture in such marriages. If you did that your numbers will grow. If you want to save what you say is the "baby" like the cultural aspects, then throw out the bathwater.

Instead of doing this Brahmins only whine, point finger at everyone. Look, look, EVR, what a hater he was. Point finger at the reservation system, look, look, it is so unfair to us, point finger at Christians and Muslims, look, look, they are converting all these Dalits by giving them money.

I don't think EVR was a saint. I certainly don't want anyone to change their opinion of him. Call him any name you want. Call me any name you want, முட்டாள், மடையன், அயோக்யன், அக்கிரமன், and whatever else that makes you feel good, and collect a load of "Likes" from the ususal suspects. But, pay attention to what EVR was talking about.

I also feel sad, feel very sad that even well-to-do educated Brahmins are so stuck up with their identity that they can't see past the cocoon of preconceived notions. The see no EVR, hear no EVR, speak no EVR sentiment is not healthy.

Cheers!

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Our Vedas are the Scriptures of all the true knowledge, which govern us. We
always have to try to perform all acts according to our earmarked Dharma and
our conduct has to be to adopt love, righteousness and justice in our
day to day life. We also have to sincerely understand ourselves and drive
away our ignorance and slowly improvise our knowledge to bring respect
to TBs.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[Nara]

EVR takes points 3 and 4 together from Rajaji's 10 criticisms. At that time, Hindus, Christians and Muslims already had separate electorates. EVR, Ambedkar, and others were demanding separate electorate for Non-brahmins and Dalits. Rajaji, Gandhi and others were against this idea. Gandhi went on a hunger strike to prevent further electoral separation based on jAti. Finally a compromise was reached in which Hindu electorate would not be further sub-divided, but certain number of constituencies will be reserved for Dalits.

Of course, after independence the entire electorate was unified, but the reservation of constituencies continues.

On this issue, while I sympathize EVR's motivation to get more non-brahmin voice in the corridors of power -- which came about naturally in the sixties -- the tactic of asking for separate electorate was not wise.

Point #3 and 4:

Rajaji's argument as presented by EVR:
#3: வகுப்புவாரிப் பிரதிநிதித்துவம் என்றால் ஒரு ஜாதியாரேயல்லாமல் பல ஜாதியார்கள் அதிகார சபையில் இருப்பது மாத்திரம் அல்லாததோடு, பிராமணர்களைப் பிராமணர் மாத்திரம் தேர்ந்தெடுக்க வேண்டும் என்பதும், மற்ற ஜாதியார்கள் பிராமணரல்லாதவர்களைத்தான் தேர்ந்தெடுக்கலாம் என்பதும் இந்த கிளர்ச்சியின் முழுப்பொருளாம் ... பார்ப்பனர்களில் பெரும்பாலோர் பிராமண சமூகத்தின் பிரத்தியேக நன்மைக்காகவே தேர்ந்தெடுப்பார்கள்.

#4: சில பிரதிநிதிகள்தான் உட்புகலாம். பார்ப்பனரல்லாதவர்கள் எந்தப் பார்ப்பானுக்கும் வாக்கு கொடுக்க முடியாது. இவ்வகையில் தேர்ந்தெடுக்கப்பட்ட சபைகள் அதிகாரம் செலுத்தி வந்தால் நாடு பிற்போக்கு அடையும் என்பதில் ஐயமில்லை.

EVR's response:
வகுப்புவாரிப் பிரதிநிதித்துவம் என்றால் பிராமணர்களைப் பிராமணர் மாத்திரம் தேர்ந்தெடுக்க வேண்டும் என்பதும், மற்ற ஜாதியார்கள் பிராமணரல்லாதாரை தேர்ந்தெடுக்க வேண்டுமென்கின்ற பொருளாதலால் இவ்வகை தேர்ந்தெடுப்பால், நாடு பிற்போக்கடையும் என்பது, கிருஸ்தவர்களை கிருஸ்துவர்கள் தேர்ந்தெடுத்தாலும், மகமதியரை மகமதியரே தேர்ந்தெடுத்தாலும், இந்துக்களை இந்துக்கள் தேர்ந்தெடுத்தாலும்தான் நாடு பிற்போக்கடைந்து விட்டது போலும்; அதற்கு முன் நாடு முற்போக்கிலிருந்தது போலும்; இவற்றிலெல்லாம் ஏற்படாத பிற்போக்கு பிராமணர்களைப் பிராமணர் தேர்ந்தெடுப்பதும், பிராமணரல்லாதவர்களை பிராமணரல்லாதார் தேர்ந்தெடுப்பதினாலும் ஏற்பட்டு விடும் போலும்.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Post # 111 is nothing but pure venom spewed against brahmins!

He wrote this 85 years ago, how far have the Brahmins come in these years? Not very far.

There are many NBs writing in this forum. I wonder whether they were treated with any disrespect or whether they were forced to call the rest of the brahmins "swamis" or whether they were called "இழிபிறவிகள்". on the other hand, it is Nara who calls brahmins as some sinners who are yet to reform. It is very sad that this forum encourages such crass generalizations against a community.

Instead of doing this Brahmins only whine, point finger at everyone. Look, look, EVR, what a hater he was. Point finger at the reservation system,

The concerns regarding reservation, a system because of its ad-hoc implementation is nothing but discrimination,are legitimate. I am not sure whether the brabas are capable of understanding the system in detail. They could only see things in black and white. They would stand by anything as long as it carries an unfavorable dipensation towards brahmins. The communal quota instituted in TN during EVR's times is the starting point of this farce. I will include details on how the communal quota was designed originally to mainly favor NB "upper" casteists.

EVR was a hatemonger whose aim was destruction of brahmins. It is natural for the brahmins to take cudgels against him. Noone forced Nara to carry the burden of defending him.

And it is not a surprise that the brabas would support anyone including christian fanatics, islamic terrorists, and dravidian racists as long as it would amount to taking a stand against brahmins. Such caste prejudice and hatred and these people have the galls to talk against casteism! How ironic!

 

[Nara]

... on the other hand, it is Nara who calls brahmins as some sinners who are yet to reform. It is very sad that this forum encourages such crass generalizations against a community.

I did not say Brahmins are sinners, this is yet another case of the KBs of the world putting words into the mouth of those with whom they disagree. They are the real enemies of the Brahmins, they are the ones weighing down the vast majority of the Brahmins, the decent folks, like any other jAti group, making an honest living, and unfortunate enough to be persuaded by mendacious godmen and uncaring acharyas wedded to the past. The KBs of the world are the true nemeses of the Brahmins, like Shakuni was to the Duryoadhanas.

I want my Brahmins to change and embrace the new reality. Thanks to people like KB, even today, the Brahmins spare no effort to maintain their male Brahmin exclusivity. Do you know that to this very day women of all jAti and NB men, are not allowed to join the Prabhanda goshti in any SV temple? I think the Shiva temples are no better, but I am ignorant on that issue, except that I know how Thirunalaippovar was dispatched into the buring pit.

Do you know that even in Andal sannidi in Thiruvilliputtur and other Nacchiyar kovils in places like Uraiyur and thirunaraiyur, women, the gender to which Andal herself belonged I am told, are not allowed to join the goshti? Why not? Why let the KBs of the world hold you back?

Don't be so exclusive. The Brahminical Matam went all the way up to the Supreme Court to maintain the Brahmin exclusivity in Thiruppati Satrumurai ritual. Why? It would have been admirable if they argued for preserving the Satrumurai ritual, but opened it up to everyone who met a standard that is not birth dependent, but they went for birth based exclusivity. Don't have a gurutha, that is good enough, as long as you have poonool and a namam. This is the state now, not 85 years ago when EVR wrote the things I am excerpting.

When couple of ex-members of this forum were organizing Svayamvarams we were told that the Brahmins are interested only in within subcaste unions, and if push came to shove, may tolerate other Brahmins, even if they are from the north, but were hostile to even allowing NBs to join as a possibility for those who may not mind. Why then complain Brahmins are considered as alien in Tamil land? If they would rather accept alliances from the north to maintain their Brahminhood, but will never consider a Tamil NB, not even tolerate other participants being given the opportunity to consider such an union, is it any wonder the NB Tamils feel Brahmins think of themselves as different from Tamils? All this is happening today, not 85 years ago.

I know, the NBs are also caste conscious. But that does not negate my comment that Brahmins have not reformed, and KB so deceitfully portrays this as though I am saying the Brahmins are sinners.

Brother KRS says he agrees with EVR's sentiments, but can't stand him for the rhetoric he enraged in. Well, that is fine, you don't have to stop disliking EVR, just look at some of his criticisms and implement suitable reforms. Continue to hate EVR, but change for the better. Don't let the KBs of the world hold you back, they are too stuck up with their Brahmin-supremacy ideology, they do not have your true welfare at heart. I am an atheist and an ex-Brahmin, sure, but still all my relatives including my dear wife are still Brahmins, and I wish them nothing but well. Be wary of those who sweet talk to you, only those with genuine welfare in mind will dare to not spare the truth from you.

The concerns regarding reservation, a system because of its ad-hoc implementation is nothing but discrimination,are legitimate.

If you wish, please start a new thread and give your opinion to your hearts content. As the OP of this thread I wish to ensure this thread is about the self respect movement spearheaded by EVR.

Noone forced Nara to carry the burden of defending him.

Another canard, I am not defending EVR. Even though I admire EVR for what he stood for and the revolutionary ideals he advocated, I do not agree with him like his DK devotees. EVR himself admonished his devotees not to take his words uncritically, but to think for themselves and accept only what made sense to them.

Please note, I did not embark on this EVR topic on my own whim. It was sarang who brought EVR into this equation and then went ahead and made a slanderous comment against me. He is yet to come clean.

I am really very tired of this repeated attempts to just construct straw men (some people don't seem to understand what a straw man logical fallacy is, please Google the term) and make derogatory comments, like, Nara calls Brahmins sinners, or Nara is defending EVR. If this gives you guys some satisfaction, then go ahead, make any comment you like that Shri KRS will tolerate. But, let truth be told, you guys are the true enemies of Brahmins, holding them back from changing to a bright and inclusive tomorrow.

Cheers?

 

[கால பைரவன்]

There is a saying. "That which people praise highly, they usually lack". That saying is being proven right here. People who praise civility are often the most uncivil as evident in Nara's case.

I did not say Brahmins are sinners, this is yet another case of the KBs of the world putting words into the mouth of those with whom they disagree. They are the real enemies of the Brahmins, they are the ones weighing down the vast majority of the Brahmins, the decent folks, like any other jAti group, making an honest living, and unfortunate enough to be persuaded by mendacious godmen and uncaring acharyas wedded to the past. The KBs of the world are the true nemeses of the Brahmins, like Shakuni was to the Duryoadhanas.

Hiding behind semantics to dispute my argument is very cheap. Thats okay.

Brahmins are being singled out as if they are the root cause of all the problems in this country - starting from casteism to poverty. This non-sense is constantly dinned out in this forum. This I object. According to Nara, objecting to such unjust characterization makes one a real enemy of the brahmin community. Does it? Let the community decide.

All along in this forum, people like Nara have argued against brahmins, whining day afer day, heaping abuses against them, as if they are one single entity. Now suddely he talks about honest brahmins, decent brahmins etc to separate the KBs. I think that itself is a victory to those who argue against the likes of Nara.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Thanks to people like KB, even today, the Brahmins spare no effort to maintain their male Brahmin exclusivity. Do you know that to this very day women of all jAti and NB men, are not allowed to join the Prabhanda goshti in any SV temple? I think the Shiva temples are no better, but I am ignorant on that issue, except that I know how Thirunalaippovar was dispatched into the buring pit.
The gender to which Andal herself belonged I am told, are not allowed to join the goshti? Why not? Why let the KBs of the world hold you back?

This is something beyond irony!
On one hand, Nara accuses me of putting words in his mouth, while he engages shamelessly in all sorts of unfounded accusations.
I challenge Nara to show one statement in this forum where I have written in support of any such practices! He can't. Once again, Nara thinks he has some god given right to engage in deceitful portrayals about anyone who stands up to his shenanigans.

This is the state now, not 85 years ago when EVR wrote the things I am excerpting.

And that makes EVR right and his hatemongering valid? It is okay to go and attack a poor brahmin who depends on selling poonul for his livelihoood. Is it okay to throw acid bombs on a person because he was wearing a namam? Is that Nara's point? Who is indulging in srawman arguments here?

Regarding all these temple practices: It has been several years since the dravidianist governments' take over of the temples. It must be very easy for them to change all these rules. What is preventing them from doing so? The answer is rather simple. Nara would not want to think about it because that won't go well with his pet theories about KBs.

When couple of ex-members of this forum were organizing Svayamvarams we were told that the Brahmins are interested only in within subcaste unions, and if push came to shove, may tolerate other Brahmins, even if they are from the north, but were hostile to even allowing NBs to join as a possibility for those who may not mind. Why then complain Brahmins are considered as alien in Tamil land? If they would rather accept alliances from the north to maintain their Brahminhood, but will never consider a Tamil NB, not even tolerate other participants being given the opportunity to consider such an union, is it any wonder the NB Tamils feel Brahmins think of themselves as different from Tamils?

Again the above passage does not provide the complete picture at all. Selective analysis only shows off Nara's deep prejudice against brahmins.

The NBs are not a monolithic group. Each caste in NB would want to marry only into the same caste. An NB marrying a B is a disadvantage to the NB what with all the secular exclusive previleges available to an NB's kith and kin.

And marrying off a children born to intercaste marriage is difficult in this caste-ridden society. Why single-out brahmins in this problem for which the whole society is responsible?

These are practical problems. One practical solution is that those who can see beyond caste identities can pledge to marry of their children only to similar minded people. Intercaste marriages do not resolve caste differences. It only strengthens one hand or the other!

Let me also point out all these grandstanding that some people take and show off in forums like this, they themselves rarely follow. The Naras and their likes would definitely have married into their own caste. On this I have little doubt.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

The conerns regarding reservation are legitimate

If you wish, please start a new thread and give your opinion to your hearts content. As the OP of this thread I wish to ensure this thread is about the self respect movement spearheaded by EVR.

The self respect movement and communal quota are related. Communal quota and ad-hoc discrimination is at the heart of dravidian politics and is very much pertinent to the charge that the dravidian movement is not for real reform but is simply anti-brahmin.

 

[Nara]

... Now suddely he talks about honest brahmins, decent brahmins etc to separate the KBs. I think that itself is a victory to those who argue against the likes of Nara.

If separating the likes of KB from the ordinary Bs who care for nothing more than their day-to-day livlihood is a victory, then I will take it, gladly.

Unfortunately, the majority of the Brahmins are still under the yoke of the Braminists of KB ilk. A new and bright dawn for the ordinary Brahmins is possible only when they are released from the stranglehold of the likes of KB.

In this respect, the likes of KB and MK are no different, one keeps the Brahmins from reforming and the other keeps blaming the Brahmins for all that ails the society. Let MK and KB battle it out between themselves, they are made for each other. The other ordinary Brahmins who are kept mired in an imagined jAti supremacy by KB and gang, are no better off than an average Dalit economically, and no better off socially than even the rich Dalit. It is the KBs of the world who are real enemies of Brahmins.

These weekend Brahmins, who do all week long everything that goes against what they self-servingly proclaim as Brahmin qualities -- how often have we heard these hypocrites cite Yudishtira Nahusha exchange or Yudishtra Yaksha exchange -- but come weekend put on a holier-than-thou Brahmin charade, these are the ones who keep the poor Brahmins down.

I love Brahmins just as much, and no more, as I love NBs and Dalits. I have said this from the very first day I signed up as a member of this site. Johny come lately, not knowing what I stand for, may say things like "suddenly".

Let people like KB say whatever they want, from their ivory tower of Brahminical supremacy. I hope for a Tamil society in which Brahmins accept all other Tamils as equal to them in the arena where they still hold sway. In the political arena they have absolutely no say, and that is what should be expected in a democracy. In the economic arena they still wield enormous sway, but the capitalist system can't tolerate too much of jAti considerations, so they have to compromise. The only arena where the Brahmins still have an upper hand is the religious arena, like the temples. The only arena where they still have influence, the likes of KB are doing everything they can to prevent the Brahmins from coming into the 21st century. They still enforce the most oppressive jAti based exclusion. This will change only when the views of people like KB are neutralized.

My hope is, Brahmins will defeat these retrograde forces and evolve into a sort of reform Brahmins, like reform Jews, accepting anyone into their fold, preserve the neutral and positive parts of their culture and squarely reject the negative parts, the parts the likes of KB want to defend at all cost. Such a future will benefit the Brahmins most. Those who have the welfare of Brahmins equal to that of their own welfare will aspire for nothing less.

Cheers!

 

[கால பைரவன்]

I think the moderator would edit many of these posts. I wish he does not. Anyways, until then, I do not want to cower down.

Unfortunately, the majority of the Brahmins are still under the yoke of the Braminists of KB ilk. A new and bright dawn for the ordinary Brahmins is possible only when they are released from the stranglehold of the likes of KB.

The only thing the brahmins have to released from is the guilt-trip that is being imposed on them by the likes of Nara. Nara and his ilk would ride rough-shod over them if somebody does not stand up to their hatemongering.

In this respect, the likes of KB and MK are no different, one keeps the Brahmins from reforming and the other keeps blaming the Brahmins for all that ails the society.

This concession is surprising. Why sudden change of heart regarding MK? Why does Nara decide to remain only the lackey of EVR/DK and not MK/DMK?

The other ordinary Brahmins who are kept mired in an imagined jAti supremacy by KB and gang, are no better off than an average Dalit economically, and no better off socially than even the rich Dalit.

Yet Nara, who is much better of economically than poor brahmins, and who pretends as if he cares about poor brahmins is also a strong supporter of government programs that discriminate against the poorest of poor brahmins.

These weekend Brahmins, who do all week long everything that goes against what they self-servingly proclaim as Brahmin qualities -- how often have we heard these hypocrites cite Yudishtira Nahusha exchange or Yudishtra Yaksha exchange -- but come weekend put on a holier-than-thou Brahmin charade, these are the ones who keep the poor Brahmins down.

Poor brahmins are kept down by those who support discrimination against them. Not weekend brahmins or wannabe brahmins.

It is the KBs of the world who are real enemies of Brahmins.

Calling his lies out makes one enemy of brahmins.

 

[KRS]

Dear brother Nara Ji,

I have been collecting EVR's hateful words from his writings themselves to show you the kind of man he was. I have not said that I like all his ideas. He was trying to sell the sole idea that Hinduism must be killed (of course he liked other religions and did not see any problems with them, because according to him only Hinduism had the 'high' and 'low' of casteism). He either forgot or did not know that all religions eventually have come to discriminate, both on the basis of societal intercourse as well on religious basis.

I will post his hateful words against Brahmins in a future post. But just to illustrate his mind set, here are the words of this rationalist:

The uncivilized barbaric Negroes don’t have the difference of Brahmin and Sudras. The Eskimos, who eat people raw and live amidst the dark snow, do not have these differences of high and low.
[Viduthalai, 23-12-1947]

These are the words from a self acclaimed 'humanist' about other races of the human kind! Would a person, who thinks that all humans are equal utter such words? Why are these words important? Because this shows how this guy really felt about the Dalits that he was claiming to be championing for and they know it. Please read this:
The Periyar Legatees By Chandrabhan Prasad
Iconoclast, Or Lost Idol? | S. Anand
Add to these the book by a Dalit, one Sri M.Venkatesan on the duplicity practiced by EVR.

And to illustrate the irony in all this, guess who were the culprits who disfigured EVR statue in front of the Srirangam temple? One OBC belonging to EVR caste and four Dalits.

Brother Nara Ji, I am sure will dismiss these as just some rantings by some 'prejudiced' party and probably explain away the action of the five on some 'brain washing' by Brahmins, etc.

Why am I citing all this? Because, people who spread hate against a particular group of folks, at the end never win. Did this guy really think that because of his writings a whole way of life and a grand religion will just go away? This is why I said that EVR is irrelevant today, which is being proven daily. What other proof one needs, than his successors supporting casteism while governing TN after Congress? But let us leave EVR aside for now.

No one denies that casteism is the bane of India. Sri KB Ji even stated that.

Okay, even if one wants to say that Brahmins MUST reform, what does one mean by that? Are we saying that there should not be any castes? Or are we saying that within the construct of thousands of years of Hinduism, one should imbibe the modern values of humanism and equality?

Indian Constitution already has laid the framework for the society to change. We have the reservation system (I would argue that the way it is being implemented is a sham and vote bank fraud) and that has allowed for an increasing crop of intellectuals to come to the fore and argue their communities' case. This is true for each community. So, I think, all the societal ills created by the caste system are slowly but surely being washed away. No one anymore in a public place can tell from speech what caste one belongs to. But one can not wish away thousands of years of a way of living completely in a few years. It will take time.

This is why I have repeated a question I asked you before in my previous post, which you now have avoided answering again.

My simple question to you is this. Do you believe that the Brahmins as a class wantonly and actively plotted and pursued a deliberate policy to keep all other Varnas inferior to them from the advent of the Sanathana Dharma till the Britishers came? And do you believe that the TN Brahmins are foreigners (Aryans) even though they have been living in TN for 2000 years or more. Because, in my opinion, this is the crux of EVR's ideology.

But now let us come to the religion part about Hinduism. In almost all religions, within each of it's confines there are sacerdotal kind of principle. Some religions do not allow anyone to become one of them. Some favor some ethnicity to others. As long as the adherents are okay with these rules, then I think, no outsider should have any input in to them. They have no business to question the practices within a religion, as long as it's members arrange all the affairs of such things for themselves. For example, I do not think any Muslim or Christian or Jew and for that matter any Atheist have any say in how different Sampradhayams operate within Hinduism. Even any 'progressive' reform must come from inside and not from outside. So, in this respect, one would be blind not to see the reformist movements within Hinduism : Please see:
Hindu reform movements - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just because you think how some temples don't allow this and that, and that is discrimination, does not mean that it is. Why? Because, for Hindus, their beliefes are personal and the majority when it comes to the sacerdotal part of the religion do not think it is discrimination. If one does not agree with it, they can try to change it by dialog or by changing their religion. No one is stopping them.

I personally do not understand all the Poorva Mimamsa rituals and my upbringing did not train me to understand their meanings etc. Hinduism has allowed me a different path to fulfill my spirituality. But at the same time, I will defend vigorously the right of those folks to do whatever way they see fit to pursue their religiosity, be it believing in rituals and what not. I am offended, you would term some of them as 'hypocrites'. I do not think you have that right. I don't want to be offensive, but 'who died and made you king' to judge others' personal choices, as long as they are not breaking any laws? You can say you do not agree with their way, which I may too, but to call them names as you call theists names is not intellectually supportable.

Same thing with inter caste marriages. This is an intensely personal affair and while this is social, it also has both cultural and religious aspects to it. This will evolve over time as the Parsis are learning to their dismay according to various community needs and mores.

I think things are changing quite rapidly in our community, judging from all the hand wringing that is going on. This is a very hard place to be in for our community, which needs our well thought out empathy and support. We do not need all the lecturing and haranguing, especially from someone who quit being part of it.

We don't need a 'revolution' to change. We need support and empathy and new transformational ideas to accommodate the changes which have been thrust upon us by the onward march of Indian civilization. Thank you.

Regards,
KRS

 

[C RAVI]

Excellent post #121, Shri KRS.

I don't think anything else can be said/explained to make things much clear in black and white.

 

[ozone]

I am an atheist and an ex-Brahmin, sure, but still all my relatives including my dear wife are still Brahmins, and I wish them nothing but well. Be wary of those who sweet talk to you, only those with genuine welfare in mind will dare to not spare the truth from you.

I would like some details on why Sri Nara chooses to call them Brahmins and what differentiates them from the wannabe Brahmins and Playing Brahmins.
It would also be helpful if Sri Nara can share his experiences and reaction if and why he called them superstitious, delusional etc., and what their responses were. Being in close proximity to a staunch Atheist, that their minds couldnt be changed means either that the preachings are unconvincing or the belief is so strong or they give two hoots to these talk.
Wouldnt it be fair that Sri Nara first changes his immediate circle before he attempts to preach to the world?
Or is Sri. Nara now trying to tell us that his family members are the true Brahmins and the rest of us are not? Am I smelling an agenda here?

Unfortunately, the majority of the Brahmins are still under the yoke of the Braminists of KB ilk.
A new and bright dawn for the ordinary Brahmins is possible only when they are released from the stranglehold of the likes of KB.

I consider this as an accusation against an individual without any views or supporting evidences.
For a person who repeatedly keeps doling out that the other side constantly resorts to name calling and self claims of 'I only
present views and ideas' this one doesnt go well in line with that stand and I hope atleast now the author will not claim himself to be an exclusive purist.

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Priests and Scholars are generally from Brahmins from the age old Centuries.
They have been doing certain things traditionally. No doubt, they too are educated
like others and have good capability to interpret Vedas accurately. May be,
Brahmins are minority historically. Brahmins and Vedic Religion are certainly
inseparable and they continue to serve for the good cause of Hindu Society at large
and they deserve to be given proper respect.

Balasubramanian

 

[BostonSankara]

Thank you Sri KRS Ji.

Dear brother Nara Ji,

I have been collecting EVR's hateful words from his writings themselves to show you the kind of man he was. I have not said that I like all his ideas. He was trying to sell the sole idea that Hinduism must be killed (of course he liked other religions and did not see any problems with them, because according to him only Hinduism had the 'high' and 'low' of casteism). He either forgot or did not know that all religions eventually have come to discriminate, both on the basis of societal intercourse as well on religious basis.

I will post his hateful words against Brahmins in a future post. But just to illustrate his mind set, here are the words of this rationalist:


These are the words from a self acclaimed 'humanist' about other races of the human kind! Would a person, who thinks that all humans are equal utter such words? Why are these words important? Because this shows how this guy really felt about the Dalits that he was claiming to be championing for and they know it. Please read this:
The Periyar Legatees By Chandrabhan Prasad
Iconoclast, Or Lost Idol? | S. Anand
Add to these the book by a Dalit, one Sri M.Venkatesan on the duplicity practiced by EVR.

And to illustrate the irony in all this, guess who were the culprits who disfigured EVR statue in front of the Srirangam temple? One OBC belonging to EVR caste and four Dalits.

Brother Nara Ji, I am sure will dismiss these as just some rantings by some 'prejudiced' party and probably explain away the action of the five on some 'brain washing' by Brahmins, etc.

Why am I citing all this? Because, people who spread hate against a particular group of folks, at the end never win. Did this guy really think that because of his writings a whole way of life and a grand religion will just go away? This is why I said that EVR is irrelevant today, which is being proven daily. What other proof one needs, than his successors supporting casteism while governing TN after Congress? But let us leave EVR aside for now.

No one denies that casteism is the bane of India. Sri KB Ji even stated that.

Okay, even if one wants to say that Brahmins MUST reform, what does one mean by that? Are we saying that there should not be any castes? Or are we saying that within the construct of thousands of years of Hinduism, one should imbibe the modern values of humanism and equality?

Indian Constitution already has laid the framework for the society to change. We have the reservation system (I would argue that the way it is being implemented is a sham and vote bank fraud) and that has allowed for an increasing crop of intellectuals to come to the fore and argue their communities' case. This is true for each community. So, I think, all the societal ills created by the caste system are slowly but surely being washed away. No one anymore in a public place can tell from speech what caste one belongs to. But one can not wish away thousands of years of a way of living completely in a few years. It will take time.

This is why I have repeated a question I asked you before in my previous post, which you now have avoided answering again.


But now let us come to the religion part about Hinduism. In almost all religions, within each of it's confines there are sacerdotal kind of principle. Some religions do not allow anyone to become one of them. Some favor some ethnicity to others. As long as the adherents are okay with these rules, then I think, no outsider should have any input in to them. They have no business to question the practices within a religion, as long as it's members arrange all the affairs of such things for themselves. For example, I do not think any Muslim or Christian or Jew and for that matter any Atheist have any say in how different Sampradhayams operate within Hinduism. Even any 'progressive' reform must come from inside and not from outside. So, in this respect, one would be blind not to see the reformist movements within Hinduism : Please see:
Hindu reform movements - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just because you think how some temples don't allow this and that, and that is discrimination, does not mean that it is. Why? Because, for Hindus, their beliefes are personal and the majority when it comes to the sacerdotal part of the religion do not think it is discrimination. If one does not agree with it, they can try to change it by dialog or by changing their religion. No one is stopping them.

I personally do not understand all the Poorva Mimamsa rituals and my upbringing did not train me to understand their meanings etc. Hinduism has allowed me a different path to fulfill my spirituality. But at the same time, I will defend vigorously the right of those folks to do whatever way they see fit to pursue their religiosity, be it believing in rituals and what not. I am offended, you would term some of them as 'hypocrites'. I do not think you have that right. I don't want to be offensive, but 'who died and made you king' to judge others' personal choices, as long as they are not breaking any laws? You can say you do not agree with their way, which I may too, but to call them names as you call theists names is not intellectually supportable.

Same thing with inter caste marriages. This is an intensely personal affair and while this is social, it also has both cultural and religious aspects to it. This will evolve over time as the Parsis are learning to their dismay according to various community needs and mores.

I think things are changing quite rapidly in our community, judging from all the hand wringing that is going on. This is a very hard place to be in for our community, which needs our well thought out empathy and support. We do not need all the lecturing and haranguing, especially from someone who quit being part of it.

We don't need a 'revolution' to change. We need support and empathy and new transformational ideas to accommodate the changes which have been thrust upon us by the onward march of Indian civilization. Thank you.

Regards,
KRS