Self respect movement

[renuka]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn WhatsApp Email Share Link

Why do I need a relationship that is devoid of goodwill
and honesty? I need to tell things soon because my disease
matures. You will ask me, “Why did you not join the
Muslim society?”
If I go alone what can I do there? Even there I need at
least ten thousand people, only then I can be with rights.
You will say that mullahs and superstitions exist even there.
If we go with a sizeable crowd, even our country will
become a true Muslim state like the Muslim countries of
Egypt and Turkey. There is no necessity for superstitions in
the rules of the Muslim religion. Even if it is there, I know
about Egypt and Turkey. I say that it is enough if Egypt,
Turkey and Persia remain Muslim. There is no need for
garbs there. There is the essentiality only for the heart. The
government officials will behave with integrity then. There
will be no Brahmin menace. They will tremble or run away
to Hindustan (north India). We will not have any type of
disgrace or problem. We can be a large egalitarian society.
We can be independent Muslims. We will also get the
support of Pakistan in the north. Exploitation will be
eradicated. I say this only for the time when nothing is
possible. I say this because nobody should say that we do
not have any plan. We must not be so.
Youth must think over this. Comrades Ambedkar and
several personalities involved in public service have also
said the same. Still I am not saying this—as some enemies
and poisonous people allege—because Islam and the
Islamic God will easily forgive the sins and make heaven
nearer as compared to other religions.
Man is a creature who has to live together. That has
been spoilt by Hinduism, gods of Hinduism, the great
people and big shots of Hinduism, its leaders and they have
made us into slaves for the Brahmins, themselves and those 204
who are favorable to them. To change that, quit Hinduism to
become people who are fit for human social life. I say this
only for that reason. If you dare to do this, the Brahmin will
step down and come. Even the Government will certainly
become credible. What more do you want?
[Viduthalai, 1-5-1943]

I was always under the impression that EVR was an Atheist.He sounds like a Non Secular Atheist(my own terminology which means an Atheist who is only selectively againts Hinduism).
I feel that he was just a down right Anti Hindu.
Its clear from the passage above.

I wonder what ever made his think that "We will also get the
support of Pakistan in the north. Exploitation will be eradicated"

I guess he didnt know that a Pakistani will call any south indian "Madrasi".

 

[Nara]

Dear brother KRS,

Right from the start I have been emphasizing,

1. I don't agree with every last word EVR has uttered, he himself exhorted his devotees to think for themselves and accept only what made sense to them,
2. I didn't broach the topic of EVR, it was brought in by others --in the past I have always ignored them, but this time I wanted to present his own words, in context, on the outrageous charges that are routinely made as though they are facts,
3. my admiration for EVR is based on the stands he advocated on caste, women, superstitions, etc.

You may choose to ignore all this, but that would not be my problem.

I have been collecting EVR's hateful words from his writings themselves to show you the kind of man he was.

Please, I am not an ignorant fool to simply admire EVR -- earlier you speculated I agree with EVR because I come from the atheist perspective, and now this!!! If the most reasonable person on the other side makes such unwarranted personal assumptions about me, it is no wonder that the rest of the riled up army can only pull the thread down to exchange of invectives.

Anyway, dear brother, please be assured, my stand on EVR is not based on irrational personal adulation, or as his lackey (I don't understand why such derisive language can't be moderated sue motto), my views are based on what I have read, about him and his own words. You go ahead and present EVR's "hateful word" against Brahimism and the Brahmins who practice and defend it, it will serve to balance out the hate already on full display here. But, my request is, do so with some context, the way I am doing. I hope you will take my request seriously.

These are the words from a self acclaimed 'humanist' about other races of the human kind! Would a person, who thinks that all humans are equal utter such words? Why are these words important? Because this shows how this guy really felt about the Dalits that he was claiming to be championing for and they know it.

I will have to take a look at the entire article to make a comment. As I have often said, I don't agree with everything he wrote. But, I don't agree with the conclusion you are arriving of the man. He certainly was a humanist, and stood for liberty and justice for all, not just for some.

He was a plain spoken, earthy person, and it showed in his language. So, it wouldn't be difficult to find tons of statements that would certainly sound crass when taken in isolation and out of context. But, he set his sight on freeing the Tamil population from self-imposed inferiority and superstitions, and instill pride in their self worth and self-respect. All his "crass" and "hateful words" make perfect sense when viewed from this perspective of shaking the Tamil psyche from the stupor of imposed inferiority.

Please read this:

I have read all these criticisms of EVR. Of all these, Ravikumar is the one who makes the best cogent case. I partially agree with Ravikumar, but, I think he overplays these issues and ignores the fundamental nature of EVR's struggle, namely self-respect, which transformed the way Dalit youth viewed itself.

This is a debate between the present Dalit leadership and the EVR people. It is opportunistic to take their dispute and use it to advance a parochial view. All the Dalit leaders are one with EVR in rejecting Brahminism, let us not forget that.

I am skipping the rest of the post as these are opinions. With this riled up vicious army arrayed against me, all of them except you, doing their best to drag me into the gutter where they thrive, and to silence me or drive me out, I am weary of engaging in an opinion-fest.

But, I will answer this one charge that I am avoiding your question:

This is why I have repeated a question I asked you before in my previous post, which you now have avoided answering again.

I did answer, now I wonder whether you even bother reading my posts. Take a look at this post.

"The history of Brahminical dominance, whether they wantonly pursued it or not, subjugated the masses with the help and connivance of other upper castes. How far back does this go, right up to the ascendency of Pallava empire in Tamil Nadu. We have discussed these topics many times in the past. Many research findings have been presented ranging from mtDNA studies to court records to whatever else. It is clear from all these studies that Brahminism has been the ruling establishment power at least for 1000 years in Tamil Nadu. Brahmins either ruled directly, or ruled as top ministers. Even Tippu Sultan surrounded himself with Brahmin ministers. "
​

Cheers!

p.s. after last night I feel I am succumbing to the pressure and responding in kind, I feel ashamed doing that. So, I am resolving to respond only to those who engage in civil discussion, the rest I shall ignore.

 

[suraju06]

Folks,

Refer post #127:

.....after last night I feel I am succumbing to the pressure and responding in kind, I feel ashamed doing that. So, I am resolving to respond only to those who engage in civil discussion, the rest I shall ignore.

When I saw week-end, wannabe and playing brahmins here again, I wanted to join issue. But now that the most convenient escape hatch has been opened I hold back my hand. Don't waste your time any more. Cheers.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Renuka,

I wonder what ever made his think that "We will also get the
support of Pakistan in the north. Exploitation will be eradicated"

No need to wonder. He was a 3rd standard drop out and in the geography he knew Pakistan might have been just north of Andhra Pradesh just as Srilanka is to the north of India and Burma is to the west of India. And if you take lessons from a 'knowledgeable intellectual' (KI) on the theory of relativity you will realise how great this EVR had been to say such apparently quixotic things which are really great unassailable cosmic truths.

 

[Nara]

This is in continuation of the debate between Rajaji and EVR. For context please see this post.

Next is point #5.

Point #5:

Rajaji's argument as presented by EVR:
"வகுப்புவாரிப் பிரதிநிதித்துவம் என்றால் இனி நீங்கள் நாட்டுக்குத் தொண்டு செய்யக்கூடாது என்று பார்ப்பனர்களுக்கு பெருந்தடையுண்டாக்குவதேயாகும். பல்லாயிர வருஷங்கள் நாட்டிற்கு தொண்டு செய்து வந்த ஒரு ஜாதியை இவ்வளவு எளிதில் குற்றவாளிகளாகத் தீர்மானித்து ஒதுக்கிவிட முடியாது. அறிவு, பயிற்சி, தொண்டு செய்யும் திறமை கொண்ட எவரும் நாட்டிற்கு வேண்டும்."

EVR's response:
வகுப்புவாரிப் பிரதிநிதித்துவம் இனி நீங்கள் நாட்டுக்குத் தொண்டு செய்யக்கூடாது என்று பார்ப்பனர்களுக்கு பெருந்தடையுண்டாக்குவதோடு பல்லாயிரக்கணக்கான வருஷங்களாய் நாட்டிற்கு தொண்டு செய்து வந்த ஜாதியை இவ்வளவு சீக்கிரத்தில் ஒடுக்கிவிட முடியாது என்கிற பந்தயமும், அறிவு, பயிற்சி, தொண்டு செய்யும் திறமை கொண்ட எவரும் நாட்டிற்கு வேண்டும் என்பதும், சர்க்காரை, எங்களை நாங்களே தேர்ந்தெடுத்துக் கொள்ளும் பாத்தியம் கேட்பது, வெள்ளைக்காரரே நாட்டுக்கு வேண்டாம் என்று சொல்லுவது தான் போலும். அல்லாமலும் 200 வருஷம் நாட்டுக்குப் "பிராமணர்களைவிட அதிமாக தொண்டு செய்த" ஒரு சர்க்காரை வெகு எளிதில் நாட்டைவிட்டு போங்கள் என்று சொல்லுவது போலத்தான் போலும். அறிவு, பயிற்சி, தொண்டு செய்யும் திறமை வெள்ளைகரருக்கு மாத்திரம் உண்டு, மற்றவர்களுக்கு இல்லை போலும்.

ஆகையால் பிராமணர்களை நாம் தேர்ந்தெடுக்காவிட்டால் அறிவு, பயிற்சி, தொண்டு செய்யும் திறமை உள்ளவர்கள் வேறு வகுப்பில் சுத்தமாய் கிடைக்கவே மாட்டார்கள் போலும்.

 

[Nara]

Dear ozone, please find my answers below.

I would like some details on why Sri Nara chooses to call them Brahmins and what differentiates them from the wannabe Brahmins and Playing Brahmins.

I did not choose to call them Brahmins, they call themselves Brahmins. I wish to point out that when I first made the comment about weekend wannabe Brahmins I mentioned my own relatives are of this kind, and some of them are prime examples of the weekend wannabes, in fact, whenever I write this term I am reminded of a couple of them who play this role to perfection. I have no qualms calling such Brahmins hypocrites because they are. Those who accuse me of calling all Brahmins hypocrites don't understand what I am saying, or don't want to understand. BTW, I love these relatives no less because of their hypocritical actions.

It would also be helpful if Sri Nara can share his experiences and reaction if and why he called them superstitious, delusional etc., and what their responses were. Being in close proximity to a staunch Atheist, that their minds couldnt be changed means either that the preachings are unconvincing or the belief is so strong or they give two hoots to these talk.

I have never gone on my own accord to talk to anybody about atheism, even in this forum I do not go poking my nose into theistic exchanges. I have only responded when people here challenge, or more precisely, mock, the atheistic POV.

Not all of my immediate nuclear family and close friends agree, neither do all of them disagree. We do not preach to each other. We have discussions on various topics, including religion and god. To hold a false belief or opinion is delusional. Superstition is to believe in a connection between two or more unconnected events. These are aspects of religious beliefs. I do point this out to my family and friends, some agree, some agree partially, and others disagree. We debate vigorously, and it is lot of fun. Nobody mocks anybody else like what happens here.

BTW, I do feel belief in the kind of gods religions assert is delusional. By this I do NOT mean all theists are always delusional, I have never said that and never will.

Wouldnt it be fair that Sri Nara first changes his immediate circle before he attempts to preach to the world?
Or is Sri. Nara now trying to tell us that his family members are the true Brahmins and the rest of us are not? Am I smelling an agenda here?

I am not preaching anything to anybody. All this god-talk started with a silly story about a barber which mocked the atheists. That debate is still continuing.

...For a person who repeatedly keeps doling out that the other side constantly resorts to name calling and self claims of 'I only
present views and ideas' this one doesnt go well in line with that stand and I hope atleast now the author will not claim himself to be an exclusive purist.

This is a fair comment. I also felt the same way, I should have resisted the provocation, I am indeed embarrassed. But I am not a jaDam, with an army arrayed against me, spewing nonstop personal hatred, post after post, with active encouragement from each other, the pressure to respond in kind becomes too hard to resist after a while.

If this sounds like an excuse, let it be. All I can do is promise to myself and to others, that I will do my best to resist the provocations and that any response in kind from my side will be rare -- I can't promise it will never happen as I am an ordinary human being, and பீலிபெய் சாகாடும் அச்சிறும் அப்பண்டஞ் சால மிகுத்துப் பெயின். Such cases will be rare, and, if and when it happens, it will be brief and I will come clean for having succumbed.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sri. Nara, Greetings.

I followed this thread without taking part in it so far. In this post, I am going to talk about you, personally.

When it comes to social engineering, we agreed on many points. But we differed diametrically opposite when we spoke about EV Ramasamy Naicker.

When it comes to ideology, E V Ramasamy Naicker was a lump of chalk where as Sri. Nara of this forum is a lump of cheese.

You have been honest all the time, where as E V Ramasamy Naicker didn't even know the spelling for honesty when it came to ideology.

E V Ramasamy Naicker was a hypocrite who dared not utter one word against the discriminations doled out by the high caste hindus.

It is a pity you don't seem to realise you personally are way above the likes of opportunists like E V Ramasamy Naicker.

It is painful to see you batting for a hypocrite where as you are a gem yourself.

Brother, I thought of voicing my honest opinions; I just did.

Cheers!

 

[C RAVI]

Sri. Nara, Greetings.

I followed this thread without taking part in it so far. In this post, I am going to talk about you, personally.

When it comes to social engineering, we agreed on many points. But we differed diametrically opposite when we spoke about EV Ramasamy Naicker.

When it comes to ideology, E V Ramasamy Naicker was a lump of chalk where as Sri. Nara of this forum is a lump of cheese.

You have been honest all the time, where as E V Ramasamy Naicker didn't even know the spelling for honesty when it came to ideology.

E V Ramasamy Naicker was a hypocrite who dared not utter one word against the discriminations doled out by the high caste hindus.

It is a pity you don't seem to realise you personally are way above the likes of opportunists like E V Ramasamy Naicker.

It is painful to see you batting for a hypocrite where as you are a gem yourself.

Brother, I thought of voicing my honest opinions; I just did.

Cheers!

Shri Raghy,

I feel, the error on your part is, you failed to realize what Shri Nara mean by supporting EVR and his movements.

Going by all the posts of Shri Nara in this thread and the over all observation I could have so far from the time I joined this Forum is that, Shri Nara would admire and support any one IF that person could be in a position to administer his/her ideologies and initiatives to vanquish Brahmin community by ANY ways and means, irrespective of what nonsense the other upper cast community are doing against dalits. Because, Brahmins hold on Vedas and seem to sound more authorative and powerful than any other upper castes. Because, all the other Upper castes community who do injustice to dalits would also for sure join his crooked revolutionary movements along with dalits to suppress and oppress Brahmin Community once for all.

Here it is not important to see what was the strategical inputs and how wrong or right it was. All that matters is a successful revolution against Brahmin community, does not matter if the community that has contributed a lot for the society gets buried for ever.

Here it is not important to analyze the personality of this revolutionist. All that matters is how successful was he in his admirable revolution?

All that require is a great sense of admiration and applause for this man as an individual with so called rational thoughts and sense of justice in successfully carrying out the revolution against 1 community, by any ways and means, by any level of atrocities and injustice.

Since Shri Nara declare himself as a man out of Brahmin community, I can understand his feelings and his admiration reasonable & sensible.

So, Shri Ragy, it should not pain you to find Shri Nara batting for a hypocrite. Because Shri Nara is not batting for a hypocrite. He is just batting for EVR's ideologies and his successful strategical implementations with his rational brain to deface Brahmin community once for all from TN.

If at all you can share the pains of other anti EVR members here, that would for sure provide some solace to such members.

 

[Nara]

Brother, I thought of voicing my honest opinions; I just did.Cheers!

Thanks Raghy for your kind words about me. Needless to say I disagree with your assessment of EVR.

Also, your kind words are giving an opportunity for others to take this thread away from its topic into a discussion of what makes Nara do this, or do that. So, I request you to refrain from making comments about me.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Who wrote this in a letter to EVR:

நீங்கள் நெடுநாளயப் பாரபக்ஷமின்றியும், தாக்ஷண்யங்களுக்கு உட்படாமலும், ஜீவகாருண்யமுள்ளவராயும், சுய நன்மையைக் கருதாமல் லோக நன்மையையே முக்கியமாகக் கருதி சுக துக்கங்கள் பாராமல் மான அவமானத்தைக் கவனியாமல் ஜன்மமெடுத்ததற்கு பரோபகாரமே சாதனமென்று கருதி உங்கள் தர்மபத்தினி சமேதராய் பாடுபட்டு வருவது எங்களுக்கு மிகவும் சந்தோஷத்தை உண்டாக்கி இருக்கிறது.

Answer tomorrow ....

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri. Ravi, Greetings.

I am not anti - anybody or pro - anybody, including E V Ramasamy Naicker. Since his ideologies were, in my opinion, hypocritical, I called him a hypocrite. Otherwise, as a person, I don't give a hoot about him.

E V Ramasamy Naicker was a public figure; so, criticising about E V Ramarasamy Naicker is acceptable.

Sri.Nara is not a public figure. He is a fellow member in our forum. Commenting something in compliment of our fellow member is welcome; but negative comments are not.

I grew up amoung Harijans. I know few things first hand about E V Ramasamy Naicker and D K Party.

The revolutionist here is not E V Ramasamy Naicker, but it is Sri. Nara himself. He is successful. Kindly trust me, I have seen it. Unfortunately, Sri. Nara doesn't realise that. ( I am making this post although Sri. Nara requested me not to. I won't make anymore posts in the same line though).

Personally I reject all the 'nice sounding quotes' Sri. Nara presents here on behalf of E V Ramasamy Naicker. I know, I can find more 'nicer sounding quotes' from Adolf Hiltler. But I like to keep that difference of opinion aside. It is unfair to charge Sri. Nara personally. He is only asking one particular community to change - that doesn't mean he is against that community.

Sri. Nara may not be presenting his arguments without stepping on others toes; I quite agree. But I will not agree he means to target brahmin community. He may want to glorify E V Ramasamy now; why not? Doesn't he have the right to do it? He may, possibly will learn more about E V Ramasamy in future and change his views... one should allow him the time.

When Sri. Nara says he does not mean to isolate brahmin community, I stand by him. He did not start this thread to spread hatred against brahmin community; only to show ( what he believes) about E V Ramasamy Naicker.

Sri. Ravi, this is my last post in connection to our little discussion. You are welcome to post your last word on this though. Kindly don't talk ill of a fellow member, please. Thanks.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

For the previous post in this series, please click here.

Point #6:

Rajaji's argument as presented by EVR:
"தற்காலத்தில் பார்ப்பனர்களின் மேல் சிலர் கொண்ட கொடுஞ்சினத்தின் காரணம் பண்டைக் கலை ஒழுக்கம், வேதம், சாஸ்திரம், கோயில், மடம் அனைத்துக்கும் கேடு விளையும் போல் இருக்கிறது. சமஸ்கிருத பாஷைக்கும், தமிழுக்கும் போட்டி; இத்தகைய மயக்கம் தமிழ் மக்களுக்குள் சிலர் உண்டாக்கி வருகிறார்கள்."


EVR's response:
பார்ப்பனர் மேல் உள்ள கொடுஞ்சினத்தின் காரணம் பண்டைக் கலை ஒழுக்கம், வேதம், சாஸ்திரம், கோயில், மடம் அனைத்துக்கும் கேடு விளையும் போல் இருக்கிறது என்பதும், சமஸ்கிருத பாஷைக்கும், தமிழுக்கும் போட்டி என்பதும்,

வெள்ளைக்காரர் மேல் உள்ள கோபத்தால்தான் பைபிளை நமது பிள்ளைகளுக்கு நாம் வேண்டாம் என்கிறோம் போலும். நாம் படிக்கக்கூடாது என்றும் சொல்லப்படும் வேதம் நமக்கு எதற்கு? பார்ப்பான் உயர்ந்தவன், மற்றவன் சூத்திரன் தாசி மகன் என்கிற கலையும் சாஸ்திரமும் பார்ப்பனரல்லாதாருக்கு எதற்கு?

பார்ப்பனர் தவிர மற்றவர் உள்ளே போவதால் கோவில் அசுத்தமாய்ப் போய்விடுமானால், பார்ப்பனர் தவிர மற்றவர் கிட்டப்போனால் சுவாமிக்கு சக்தி குறைந்து போகுமானால், அந்த கோவில் நமக்கு எதற்கு?

பார்ப்பனரல்லாதார் பணத்தை வாங்கி ..(strong content deleted to spare the sentiments of the easily offended)... பார்ப்பனரல்லாதார் நன்மைக்கோ, சுயமரியாதைக்கோ ஒரு காரியமும் நடவாதிருக்குமானால், அம்மாதிரி மடம்தான் எதற்கு?....

தமிழ் நாட்டு பாஷையாகிய தமிழைப்ப் பற்றி அக்கரையில்லை, தமிழர் பணத்தை அள்ளி சமஸ்கிருத பாஷைக்குத்தான் செலவு செய்யவேண்டும், சமஸ்கிருதத்திற்கு சமமாகக் கூட தமிழுக்கு யோக்கியதை கொடுக்கக்கூடாது என்று சொல்லுவதை ஒப்புக்கொள்ளாவிட்டால் அது போட்டி போலும்.

தமிழ் அகராதி எழுதுவதற்கு 10 வருட காலமாய் லக்ஷக்கணக்கான ரூபாய் செலவு செய்து பார்ப்பனரைத்தான் வைக்கவேண்டும், அவர்கள்தான் தமிழுக்கு உரை எழுதவேண்டும், பார்ப்பனரல்லாதார் அதில் இருக்கக்கூடாது என்பதை ஒப்புக்கொள்ளாவிட்டால், அது தமிழுக்கும் சமஸ்கிருதத்திற்கும் போட்டி போலும். அப்படியானால் பள்ளியில் பாடங்களை தேசபாஷையாகிய தமிழில்தான் கற்றுக்கொடுக்கவேண்டும் என்று சொல்லுவது கூட இங்கிலீஷுக்கும் தமிழுக்கும் போட்டி போலும்.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Raghy,

I respect the sentiments of the Member as well as you. I am not mentioning any names here. But the truth has to be presented. I am only critical of the ideas and not of any member here. Here I go:

(1)Your post was a nice way of presenting an alternative perspective on some one who is misunderstood . Unfortunately here it is not the case. There is no misunderstanding. If I say Hitler is good and marshall a hundred reasons(believe me. I can do that) as to why he is good, right thinking people in this world will still reject my contention as so much of logical nonsense. It is because what Hitler inflicted on the world is there for all to see. If I continue to maintain that Hitler is a gem and keep quoting extracts from the lectures he delivered when he was a chancellor and from his well known book Mein Kompf, the world will still dismiss me with contempt saying I am a loony. The problem with me here is not that I do not know what the world at large thinks about Hitler but I have convinced myself that he is a gem as he was liked by the cadres of Nazi party in his time and he was elected in a proper election. I go to the extent of discovering in him a champion of ordinary Germans of his time. His rantings against the Jews was based on excellent reasoning as it appeared to him and his young followers. But look at the results of that monster’s hold on a very enterprising, hardworking and resourceful population. Just for that one reason I will be called a loony. If you know me personally as a very affable, intelligent, kind-hearted intellectual you will be just perplexed as to why I stubbornly stick to my position. There are some facts which are unfathomable and you will just give up trying to understand my this particular stubbornness. The fact that we will still be friends has nothing to do with this and is besides the point here.

Now something about EVR:

(2)Being a revolutionary by itself is not something great. What is the change you want to bring with your revolutionary fervour is what makes you a hero. And your intentions matter in this. If you have something in mind and speak something else (some revolutionary stuff) you will be called a hypocrite. Behavioral scientists will call you more precisely as a “manipulator”. The point that stands out against EVR is that he was a hypocrite and a manipulator and for this there are any number of proofs available. These proofs are not what he spoke or wrote but what he actually did. Speaking and writing are all your efforts and pretences to glory and are for public consumption. But your actions represent what you are really. I can lecture from public platforms about emancipation of women and yet exploit the helplessness of a young women(She is in her twenties) much younger than me( I am 70) by marrying her and thereby denying her basic sexual rights( I am confident about the ability of my intellectual friends to use alphabet soups of exotic flavours like platonic love to take the heat off). I can lecture about the rights of dalits whenever I talk about the rights of Shudras(mainly the dominent castes) and yet carefully choose all my deputies and close associates in my political party from the dominent castes to the complete exclusion of dalits. I can deliver hilarious taunts about Hindu Gods and deities in the name of atheism while carefully avoiding any mention of Gods of other religious faiths and equally abominable practices followed in them. In all these instances my writings and spoken words are all revolutionary in content but my actions are all retrograde. To get away with all my manipulatory exploits I sell the opiate called hatred towards a small hapless group of people along with whatever I sell.Any intellectual whitewashing of this truth by quoting repeatedly from the lectures, writings etc of the so called revolutionary is just intellectual dishonesty and nothing else. To claim that this dishonesty is “honesty” adds insult to the injury of the readers/members of this forum.

My these words in para (1) are not about any one in particular. It is against the general trend in Tamilnadu to hoist on a pedestal and worship anything which is grossly different from what is existing. Whether it is good or bad is not considered material. It is enough if it is different. This trend has a powerful constituency among intellectuals perhaps because intellectuals are constantly on the look out for something novel and different from what is already known. I would like to be proved wrong.

Cheers.

 

[Nara]

There are some comparisons that are so obnoxious that not speaking up is complicity. Hitler comparison is one such. Yet, people all over the world love to use this comparison to score cheap points.

The tea-party protesters in 2009 and 2010 routines depicted Obama with Hitler mustache. Rush Limbaugh frequently came up with the term Feminazi to mean feminists. Hank William called Obama a Hitler. For Glenn Beck the children who were murdered by the Norway shooter were Nazi Youth. The left also are guilty of this excess, Bush was compared to Hitler often, Ronald Reagan was.

Let us not forget, Hitler was responsible for the murder of 6 million Jews, Gypsies and other "undesirables". An equal number, or more, died in the war.

It is one thing to disagree with EVR, even hate him, but to equate him to Hitler would be absurd if only it is not a disgraceful affront to the families of the murdered victims.

Like Kannan says in chapter 7, verse 14 of BG "mama maayaa duratyayaa", -- the visceral hatred Brahmins have for EVR is like that maya Krishna is talking about, no Brahmin can overcome this maya. Unless one manages to cross this hatred the true greatness of this man will always be illusive to Brahmins.

Cheers!

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Sri.Nara is not a public figure. He is a fellow member in our forum. Commenting something in compliment of our fellow member is welcome; but negative comments are not.
....
But I will not agree he means to target brahmin community
....
He is only asking one particular community to change - that doesn't mean he is against that community.
....
He did not start this thread to spread hatred against brahmin community
....

Dear Raghy,

It is being repeatedly told here that arguments against ideas are acceptable but not against an individual.

But the problem is arguments such as "Most brahmins I know are hypocrites", "The weekend well-to-do brahmins try to too fool poor brahmins" are outright casteist!

To come to this forum where one knows many brahmins congregate and tell them to their face that they are hypocrites is not any different from an attack on an individual!

It is just manipulation of rules to suit one's argument.

 

[Nara]

Who wrote this in a letter to EVR:

நீங்கள் நெடுநாளயப் பாரபக்ஷமின்றியும், தாக்ஷண்யங்களுக்கு உட்படாமலும், ஜீவகாருண்யமுள்ளவராயும், சுய நன்மையைக் கருதாமல் லோக நன்மையையே முக்கியமாகக் கருதி சுக துக்கங்கள் பாராமல் மான அவமானத்தைக் கவனியாமல் ஜன்மமெடுத்ததற்கு பரோபகாரமே சாதனமென்று கருதி உங்கள் தர்மபத்தினி சமேதராய் பாடுபட்டு வருவது எங்களுக்கு மிகவும் சந்தோஷத்தை உண்டாக்கி இருக்கிறது.

Answer tomorrow ....

Now the answer. According to March 2, 1930 issue of Kudiarasu, the Sankarachariyar of Sringeri Matam of that time sent a Sri Mukham to EVR inviting him to come to the Matam to be honored. The following was part of that Sri Mukham, according to Kudiarasu.

"...உங்களை நேரில் பாத்து உற்சாகப்படுத்தி எங்கள் அபிப்பிராயங்களையும் உங்களுக்கு சொல்லி தக்க சஹாயமும் செய்து .... சிறப்புவிப்பதற்காக இந்த சமஸ்தானத்திற்கு வந்து ... அதிகமான சிரேயசை அடைவீர்கள் ... (என்று கன்னடத்தில்)"

signed by: ஸ்ரீபிரஸ்தாவித்தியானந்த நாத பாரதஸ்வாமி சங்கராச்சாரியாரியார் (பு.அ. வெங்கட்டரமணம் சர்வாதிகாரி)


​

EVR was hesitant because the Sri Mukham contained typical Brahminical supremacy stuff. Still, he wanted to be respectful of the man revered by many. Here is how he characterized his predicament.

அந்த ஸ்ரீமுகத்தில் "சனாதன தர்மத்தைக் கெடுக்காமல் கரும காண்டத்தில் உள்ள அவரரவர்கள் கடமைகளைச் செய்து", "சாஸ்திரங்கள் இடம் கொடுக்கும் வரையில்", என்கிற நிபந்தனைகளைக் கண்டு... நாம் அங்கு செல்வதால் ஏதாவது பயன் ஏற்படுமா என்கிற விஷயம் நமக்கு சந்தேகமாகவே இருக்கின்றது.

ஆயினும், பொருப்புள்ள ஒரு பதவியை வகிப்பவரும் பல கொள்கைகளுக்கு அபிப்பிராய கர்த்தாவாய் இருப்பவரும் பல மக்களால் வணங்கி கொண்டாடி மதிக்கத்தக்கவராக இருப்பவருமான ஒரு பெரியாரின் அழைப்பை மதித்து அதற்கு இணங்கி அங்கு சென்று வர வேண்டியது மிக்க நியாயமாகுமென்றே நமக்கு தோன்றுகின்றது. ஆயினும் நமது நண்பர்களின் விருப்பத்தை அறிந்து சென்றுவரலாமென்று கருதியிருக்கின்றோம்.

​

I searched long and hard, but couldn't find any further detail. So. it seems to me that EVR decided not to visit the Matam due to opposition from his ranks.

I know that any amount of counter narrative evidence will be rejected out of hand by those whose primary identity is Brahmin and their primary motivation is defending Brahminism by all means necessary. To them, anything that contradicts their own preconceived notion deserves to be rejected, and anything the man said that advances their parochial narrative must be touted as clinching evidence of their casus belli.

The basic decency of this man will always be on the other side of the screen of maya, namely the visceral hatred for the man on account of his anti-Brahminism stand.

I must say, all the new reading I am into on EVR, is only reinforcing my admiration for the man. Unless one dares to rip open the maya screen of hatred, the "mama maaya duratyayaa" kind, his true legacy will always be mired in hatred.

Cheers!

 

[ozone]

Yes, remarks demeaning religions, religious leaders, religious groups by Individuals are to be tolerated but the same cannot be
done to the individual either by the affected Individual or by the affected group.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Sri. Ravi, Greetings.



Sri. Ravi, this is my last post in connection to our little discussion. You are welcome to post your last word on this though. Kindly don't talk ill of a fellow member, please. Thanks.

Cheers!

Shri Raghy,

Can you explain what I talked ill of a fellow member (Shri Nara), please??

I have honor and admiration towards Shri Nara as much as you have. To show your extraordinary admiration, respect and honor to Shri Nara, while rejecting his admiration to EVR, it is not proper to make unsubstantial accusation on a fellow member. Try to understand that this is not a descent strategy, please.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Raghy,

I respect the sentiments of the Member as well as you. I am not mentioning any names here. But the truth has to be presented. I am only critical of the ideas and not of any member here. Here I go:

(1)Your post was a nice way of presenting an alternative perspective on some one who is misunderstood . Unfortunately here it is not the case. There is no misunderstanding. If I say Hitler is good and marshall a hundred reasons(believe me. I can do that) as to why he is good, right thinking people in this world will still reject my contention as so much of logical nonsense. It is because what Hitler inflicted on the world is there for all to see. If I continue to maintain that Hitler is a gem and keep quoting extracts from the lectures he delivered when he was a chancellor and from his well known book Mein Kompf, the world will still dismiss me with contempt saying I am a loony. The problem with me here is not that I do not know what the world at large thinks about Hitler but I have convinced myself that he is a gem as he was liked by the cadres of Nazi party in his time and he was elected in a proper election. I go to the extent of discovering in him a champion of ordinary Germans of his time. His rantings against the Jews was based on excellent reasoning as it appeared to him and his young followers. But look at the results of that monster’s hold on a very enterprising, hardworking and resourceful population. Just for that one reason I will be called a loony. If you know me personally as a very affable, intelligent, kind-hearted intellectual you will be just perplexed as to why I stubbornly stick to my position. There are some facts which are unfathomable and you will just give up trying to understand my this particular stubbornness. The fact that we will still be friends has nothing to do with this and is besides the point here.

Now something about EVR:

(2)Being a revolutionary by itself is not something great. What is the change you want to bring with your revolutionary fervour is what makes you a hero. And your intentions matter in this. If you have something in mind and speak something else (some revolutionary stuff) you will be called a hypocrite. Behavioral scientists will call you more precisely as a “manipulator”. The point that stands out against EVR is that he was a hypocrite and a manipulator and for this there are any number of proofs available. These proofs are not what he spoke or wrote but what he actually did. Speaking and writing are all your efforts and pretences to glory and are for public consumption. But your actions represent what you are really. I can lecture from public platforms about emancipation of women and yet exploit the helplessness of a young women(She is in her twenties) much younger than me( I am 70) by marrying her and thereby denying her basic sexual rights( I am confident about the ability of my intellectual friends to use alphabet soups of exotic flavours like platonic love to take the heat off). I can lecture about the rights of dalits whenever I talk about the rights of Shudras(mainly the dominent castes) and yet carefully choose all my deputies and close associates in my political party from the dominent castes to the complete exclusion of dalits. I can deliver hilarious taunts about Hindu Gods and deities in the name of atheism while carefully avoiding any mention of Gods of other religious faiths and equally abominable practices followed in them. In all these instances my writings and spoken words are all revolutionary in content but my actions are all retrograde. To get away with all my manipulatory exploits I sell the opiate called hatred towards a small hapless group of people along with whatever I sell.Any intellectual whitewashing of this truth by quoting repeatedly from the lectures, writings etc of the so called revolutionary is just intellectual dishonesty and nothing else. To claim that this dishonesty is “honesty” adds insult to the injury of the readers/members of this forum.

My these words in para (1) are not about any one in particular. It is against the general trend in Tamilnadu to hoist on a pedestal and worship anything which is grossly different from what is existing. Whether it is good or bad is not considered material. It is enough if it is different. This trend has a powerful constituency among intellectuals perhaps because intellectuals are constantly on the look out for something novel and different from what is already known. I would like to be proved wrong.

Cheers.

Very well said Shri Raju,

The irony is that some fail to understand these basics that you have eloquently detailed above.

Thus I am not surprised to have been blatantly accused of talking ill of a fellow member. For me it appears to be similar to that of EVR's plot.

 

[kannanpadmanabhan]

Now the answer. According to March 2, 1930 issue of Kudiarasu, the Sankarachariyar of Sringeri Matam of that time sent a Sri Mukham to EVR inviting him to come to the Matam to be honored. The following was part of that Sri Mukham, according to Kudiarasu.

"...உங்களை நேரில் பாத்து உற்சாகப்படுத்தி எங்கள் அபிப்பிராயங்களையும் உங்களுக்கு சொல்லி தக்க சஹாயமும் செய்து .... சிறப்புவிப்பதற்காக இந்த சமஸ்தானத்திற்கு வந்து ... அதிகமான சிரேயசை அடைவீர்கள் ... (என்று கன்னடத்தில்)"

signed by: ஸ்ரீபிரஸ்தாவித்தியானந்த நாத பாரதஸ்வாமி சங்கராச்சாரியாரியார் (பு.அ. வெங்கட்டரமணம் சர்வாதிகாரி)


​

EVR was hesitant because the Sri Mukham contained typical Brahminical supremacy stuff. Still, he wanted to be respectful of the man revered by many. Here is how he characterized his predicament.

அந்த ஸ்ரீமுகத்தில் "சனாதன தர்மத்தைக் கெடுக்காமல் கரும காண்டத்தில் உள்ள அவரரவர்கள் கடமைகளைச் செய்து", "சாஸ்திரங்கள் இடம் கொடுக்கும் வரையில்", என்கிற நிபந்தனைகளைக் கண்டு... நாம் அங்கு செல்வதால் ஏதாவது பயன் ஏற்படுமா என்கிற விஷயம் நமக்கு சந்தேகமாகவே இருக்கின்றது.

ஆயினும், பொருப்புள்ள ஒரு பதவியை வகிப்பவரும் பல கொள்கைகளுக்கு அபிப்பிராய கர்த்தாவாய் இருப்பவரும் பல மக்களால் வணங்கி கொண்டாடி மதிக்கத்தக்கவராக இருப்பவருமான ஒரு பெரியாரின் அழைப்பை மதித்து அதற்கு இணங்கி அங்கு சென்று வர வேண்டியது மிக்க நியாயமாகுமென்றே நமக்கு தோன்றுகின்றது. ஆயினும் நமது நண்பர்களின் விருப்பத்தை அறிந்து சென்றுவரலாமென்று கருதியிருக்கின்றோம்.

​

I searched long and hard, but couldn't find any further detail. So. it seems to me that EVR decided not to visit the Matam due to opposition from his ranks.

I know that any amount of counter narrative evidence will be rejected out of hand by those whose primary identity is Brahmin and their primary motivation is defending Brahminism by all means necessary. To them, anything that contradicts their own preconceived notion deserves to be rejected, and anything the man said that advances their parochial narrative must be touted as clinching evidence of their casus belli.

The basic decency of this man will always be on the other side of the screen of maya, namely the visceral hatred for the man on account of his anti-Brahminism stand.

I must say, all the new reading I am into on EVR, is only reinforcing my admiration for the man. Unless one dares to rip open the maya screen of hatred, the "mama maaya duratyayaa" kind, his true legacy will always be mired in hatred.

Cheers!

Sri Nara,

Couple of observations:

It is not clear what the name of the Swamiji is? From what I can read , there was no such Swamiji in Sringeri Peetam around that time ( 1930 thereabouts) or probably anytime. Please clarify if I am missing something.

Also EVR did live for more than 4 decades beyond 1930. The intensity and bitterness in his views,actions and pronouncements on many issues certainly would have changed a lot in these 4 decades .

In the early stages he might have had the makings of a social reformer without any acrimony or venom towards any social group. So he might have been invited (even if one believes his own news to be true) for a healthy exchange of traditional and "modern" views concerning society.

What I wish to say therefore is: i) the name of the Swamiji does not fit in, and ii) Periyar at 1930 was still soft and decent and totally different from the Periyar of later decades. iii) it was a news in his own journal/paper
So the reference given in your post cannot be given much weightage, it looks like

 

[renuka]

Dear Raghy Ji,

I didnt want to get involved in this but when I read Ravi's post..I never got the impression that Ravi was talking ill of a fellow member.

I felt that Ravi was being honest and direct.Sometimes stark honesty can sound harsh so may be Ravi was misunderstood.

I just dont feel too comfortable seeing members misunderstanding each other.

Lots of Love
Renu

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Raghy Ji,

I didnt want to get involved in this but when I read Ravi's post..I never got the impression that Ravi was talking ill of a fellow member.

I felt that Ravi was being honest and direct.Sometimes stark honesty can sound harsh so may be Ravi was misunderstood.

I just dont feel too comfortable seeing members misunderstanding each other.

Lots of Love
Renu

Thank you so much for your correct understanding and kind gesture, dear Renuka.

 

[Raghy]

Shri Raghy,

Can you explain what I talked ill of a fellow member (Shri Nara), please??

I have honor and admiration towards Shri Nara as much as you have. To show your extraordinary admiration, respect and honor to Shri Nara, while rejecting his admiration to EVR, it is not proper to make unsubstantial accusation on a fellow member. Try to understand that this is not a descent strategy, please.

Sri.Ravi, Greetings.

I carefully went through my message in post #136. I have not made any accusations against you. I only made a suggestion. Suggestions are not accusations. If I wanted to accuse, I would have done that without beating around the bush. So, I don't owe you an explanation. But the fact is, you are accusing me of such an act.

I was not in discussion with you or anyone else when I wrote my message in post #132. So, I like to make it clear, I have no strategy - decent or otherwise. Also in my message in post #136, I signed off from that small discussion, after only making a suggestion in my last line. That should reiterate that I have no strategy at all.

I hardly take part in any discussions are debates. I have no strategy at all in any of my messages. So, I shall return your accusation to yourself, please. I don't like to take it. Thank you.

There is a reason for making suggestions in post #136. Kindly read this -

Going by all the posts of Shri Nara in this thread and the over all observation I could have so far from the time I joined this Forum is that, Shri Nara would admire and support any one IF that person could be in a position to administer his/her ideologies and initiatives to vanquish [COLOR=#da7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important][COLOR=#DA7911 ! important][FONT=inherit ! important]Brahmin[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR] community by ANY ways and means, irrespective of what nonsense the other upper cast community are doing against dalits. Because, Brahmins hold on Vedas and seem to sound more authorative and powerful than any other upper castes.[/COLOR]

Sri.Nara many times reiterated that he does not wish ill feelings to brahmin community as such. I believe Sri.Nara and other members what they write in this forum. So, the quoted message, in my opinion was not in good taste. That's why I made the suggestion. I can only suggest; one may write what he / she wishes to write anyway.

So, I am making one more suggestion, please. Kindly don't take suggestions as accusations. Since I did not make any accusations, I shall not continue this discussion further. Thank you.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Dear Raghy Ji,

I didnt want to get involved in this but when I read Ravi's post..I never got the impression that Ravi was talking ill of a fellow member.

I felt that Ravi was being honest and direct.Sometimes stark honesty can sound harsh so may be Ravi was misunderstood.

I just dont feel too comfortable seeing members misunderstanding each other.

Lots of Love
Renu

Sowbagyavathy Dear Renuka, Greetings.

Kindly read my message in post #136 once again, please. I have not accused Sri. Ravi in that post. I have only made a suggestion. Thanks for your note; but, I didn't earn it. Thank you.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Sowbagyavathy Dear Renuka, Greetings.

Kindly read my message in post #136 once again, please. I have not accused Sri. Ravi in that post. I have only made a suggestion. Thanks for your note; but, I didn't earn it. Thank you.

Cheers!

Dear Raghy Ji,

Please dont get me wrong..I didnt imply anywhere that you were accusing Ravi at any point.
I was just thinking may be Ravi got misunderstood.


Lots of Love
Renu