Tambrahms to become extinct by 2035

[krish44]

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I have a different view...No doubt Nara was brilliant in non religious stuff..The moment he stepped on to the religion, he was irreverent, impious and blasphemous

The website is for the Tambrahms who range from very religious, pious to those who are not following rituals but not irreverent to religion, to those who are agnostic, question scriptures but are not blasphemous..Enter the 4th category who are atheistic; profane, bashing and offensive about the Hindu scriptures, condemning brahminism on every opportunity in any thread

The fourth category by being very vociferous made the first category (who are a majority) run away from the site, the second category squirm in their seats, the third category being neglected or side lined or being completely take over by the fourth category

I suppose we will now have a good mix catering to the taste of the first 3 and work for the real upliftment of Tambrahms

May be the 4th category can seek shelter at a dedicated site for atheists

good analysis.IMHO shutting away non believers is no solution.one can still work for upliftment of brahmins and tolerate dissent. no harm listening to a point of v iew one does not subscibe to

 

[sarang]

High hopes. They have to listen to their own rumblings; their fun is in being a deviant; like a self confessed non vegetarian entering a vegetarian eatery chewing a leg or a breast and extolling the perceived inadequacies of vegetarians. What respect or attention will they get in muniyandi vilas.

May be the 4th category can seek shelter at a dedicated site for atheists

 

[sarang]

No shutting away; as long as prepared to face rebuffs.
1. It is a free country; anyone is free to air his views.
2. Subscribing to the merits of brahmins and their values is bigotry and deserve extinction.
3. Abusing brahmins is free speech and must be accepted.
Certainly atheists and reformers have a large space in the cyber world for airing!

good analysis.IMHO shutting away non believers is no solution.one can still work for upliftment of brahmins and tolerate dissent. no harm listening to a point of v iew one does not subscibe to

 

[ashwin_ash]

your children are in the usa and uk. what is the probablity of them marrying tambram boys? or tambram girls?

i happen to know countless folks who insisted on 'purity' and mocked others when the others' children marryied out of castecommunitylanguagerace. only to eat their hats and pride when their own children did the same. just look around you and watch how many tambram children in usa marry within tambram community. and how many really follow any tambram rituals albeit whitewashed.

those are portents of things to come in each family. many a hard and prejudiced heart has changed when the daughter gives ultimatum to marry a north indian or a white. the father is happy to oblige, and relieved that the daughter did not opt for a muslim. such is reality.

people living abroad, i think, should be more progressive to realities.

Personally, as long as my progeny marry a Caucasian (not recent East European immigrants), African American (not Africans), or Native American, I'll be a happy camper. The real stuff is always better than Indians who become 'westernized'. Latino, Islamic are a strict no-no. North Indians also no. Clean habits a must! For people with sons, anything goes. For people with daughters, the game changes totally.

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

the post is very interesting. have you wondered what makes tb or paghat girls opt to marry boys from other castes and religion. within the community,the boys parents ask for the moon and are not ready for facing the reality that girls have got empowered with education and jobs They are not prepared to take the diktats of brahmin parents who refuse to change with the times and give these girls a lifestyle consistent with their changed status. Getting out of this community is an attractive option as social elite NBs and well off christians wil definitely give them more space to live a life of dignity and respect

Thats the story of the 1970s and not today.

Tam Brahm girls today get all the freedom they need or require and they cant take decisions with a clear head and it is the case of often hormones and random ideas that influence their decisions.

Boys too/they are equally stupid.

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

How does it matter if an insignificant community disappears by assimilating in other communities?

Yes, many castes are very 'proud', esp. many of the middle castes. They may even increase their numbers, which will lead to many caste wars. Palakkad Iyers simply can't match up to the middle castes' might. It is better to accept the inevitable and enjoy the 'here and now' rather than lamenting about the eventual fate.

How does it matter if the community exists in a form different from what it is now? Yes, certain rituals may vanish, but it won't affect anyone, one can be assured.

Harping on a caste's extinction is like flogging a dead horse.

kerala is a unique case and in TN story is still ok.

 

[kunjuppu]

K sir When it comes to marriage why do you think it is no No when it is a muslim . white christian is ok with them. are tbs not progressive when it is a muslim.btw I have one in my extended family who is tryng to find peace and security in canada after failing to get the same in india

dear krish, i am just saying what i see. none of us are without prejudices. we are defined by them. it is what we feel 'comfortable'.

very good friends of mine, jews, their daughter married an iranian. i was surprised, till they told me, that he was non practising and enjoyed alcohole/bacon as much as anyone else. it is the compatibility that counts. i think.

which is why, the future marriages may be dictated more by social standing than caste. my children, having brought up as liberal hindus, without castes, would mostly likely marry folks like them, ie liberal irrespective of religion, with similar habits. it is difficult to have one going to separate prayers when everyone else is doing something else. even that may be adjustable. who knows.

my girl cousin who married a xtian in chennai, totally converted and identifies with his faith 100%. much surprised as she was a devout person who went to saneeswaran temple without fail every week. personally i find, that it is people who are 'ritually religious' who convert, just switch from one set of practices to another, because the first set failed.

those like me, who do not expect anything of God, materialistically, and who take life as it comes, attribute everything to randomness, feel no need to convert, and are plain contented with our religion temples and palghat food

hope this explains. somewhat. re islam, very seldom you find one of such heritage who is liberal and not dogmatic. tough to accommodate it with liberal views. i think so.

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

christianity or islam is a political/economic identity which ll wipe out hinduism.

It ll be interesting to see when hindu population goes below 50%.

It ll be mayhem especially in North India.

PS: Hinduism and Vedic culture ll definitely go,the Jews were lucky and are the only ones to establish a state.

I hope we have a Brahmin state too,i ll prefer Travancore if it happens.

 

[kunjuppu]

The fate and progress of a community is decided not by the emigrees, but by those who stay put and fight. There are plenty of pockets which will ensure that continuity is maintained.

All through history. invaders and occupiers have worked hard to eliminate, convert or absorb brahmins in their fold. It has not worked and will not work in future too. For every brahmin emigree who has developed a disdain for brahmins and their way of life, there is one returnee from the north-north hemisphere with heightened interest in native practices. Only last week two speakers (with enough western living and exposure) in a management seminar recounted this. One said that how his palakakad brahmin upbringing shaped his ideas and the other, how he renounced his jnu values after he was given the complete works of swami vivekananda in a us university conference. No one is now shy of saying he is a brahmin.

Distractors are only irritants; they cannot achieve anything.

wish this were true. seriously. but numbers say otherwise.

starting with 1950s when we started having small families, nobody then thought of the consequences of this in finding husbands wives for the next generations. even in 1980s, it started getting tough to match, even with girls going along with parents' wishes.

today, the situation is such, that a significant number of boys do not have spouses. i think so far all in agreement.

the emigration is still on. for every one returning, there are 10 in line in front of the u.s. embassy or flying to the gulf.

i can speak only of my extended family. i do not have even one person under the age of 30 in india. within 3 circles of relationship. all the children are abroad and none of them intended to return. that is that much numbers reduced and that is tht much numbers less of tambrams for the next generation.

there may be a core. again there may be not. the post OP is valid. whether it is a concern, is a pov. i am a pattar from palghat, who is 4 generations removed from palghat itself. i simply dont know what to feel. my interest in tamil and tamilculture is cultivated. none of my family share it.

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

kunujppu sir,

thats the story largely in TN too.

Not even one guy/girl who went to US before 2008 returned.

 

[kunjuppu]

personally, for various reasons, the prime being, that the mutt stands for status quo re castes, i have never been admirer of it. even with the previous pontiff.

but when i read this here, கோயிலுக்குள் காரில் வந்த ஜெயேந்திரர்- நடராஜர் கோயில் வரலாற்றில் முதன்முறையாக நடந்தது, i think even the most ardent devotee should be concerned.

here is the full article in tamil hindu..just click this link. ..and also enjoy the 52+ comments

 

[CHANDRU1849]

dont know what this means. very vague and appears illiterally prejudiced beyond comprehension.


IYERS

So many sub sects
Clash with each other due to Mutt affiliation
Lack of identity - either Saivite or Vaishnavite
Lack of specific worship
Lack of coordination
Have more faith with Iyengars than with fellow Iyers (especially in Offices)
Lack of interest in the community (Tamil Cinema is a perfect example)

Iyengars

No coments

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

I am a smartha and smarthism is very well defined.

Vaishnavism and Smarthism rivalry is long gone and doesnt exist anymore.

I grew up in Madras in the 90s and most of my friends and exes are iyengars.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

I am a smartha and smarthism is very well defined.

Vaishnavism and Smarthism rivalry is long gone and doesnt exist anymore.

I grew up in Madras in the 90s and most of my friends and exes are iyengars.

Smarthism might have been well defined but it is questionable whether it is being followed as per set norms. Smarthas have virtually become pseudo-Vaishnavites.

Earlier the rivalry was visible. But nowadays, though it is not transparent, when situation demands, Vaishanavites (Iyengars) have more unity, compared to Iyers. Whilst all Iyers are going to Vaishanavites temples, the same is not so in the case of Iyengars. It may still be less than 20%. Majority of Iyengars still feel that they are distinctly different from Iyers. How many Iyengars have name their children with the names of Saivite Gods.

It is not strange Iyers have Iyengar friends. It is like friendship with other community people.

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

No way,

Iyengars are my brothers like my own blood.If my friend(iyengar) wanted to marry my sister/cousins,i wud be glad.

They are my brothers in arms,when we studied together saying we are General category champs and we ll thrash the quota folk.

anyway vadamam muthi vaishnavam and i dont mind at all,i dont even mind saiva siddhantham also but sorry,iyers iyengars have no issues.

and i got no issues,i even know vadamas who converted.

But in our villages in Tirunelveli,we are all vadamas.

 

[tks]

personally, for various reasons, the prime being, that the mutt stands for status quo re castes, i have never been admirer of it. even with the previous pontiff.

but when i read this here, கோயிலுக்குள் காரில் வந்த ஜெயேந்திரர்- நடராஜர் கோயில் வரலாற்றில் முதன்முறையாக நடந்தது, i think even the most ardent devotee should be concerned.

here is the full article in tamil hindu..just click this link. ..and also enjoy the 52+ comments

I must be dense .. Not sure what the issue is to be concerned about..

If Pope were to visit a church and comes in a papal cart all the way near a church it would not be a big deal.

I am not trying to defend anyone - just do not understand what the issue is.

Is the issue that someone who is a Sannyasi is coming in a car and gets to come very close to inside the temple?

If so what exactly is the issue here?

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

I also have a problem with the kanchi shankaracharya doing that.

 

[tks]

I also have a problem with the kanchi shankaracharya doing that.

The question I asked is to articulate what the issue is. Not that some people may feel there is an issue.

 

[kunjuppu]

The question I asked is to articulate what the issue is. Not that some people may feel there is an issue.

the issue, afaik, and it is only a personal thing, is one of modesty. come what may, in india, still, the automobile is viewed with a little respect. coming inside the temple in an auto, appears to me, indicates more extravagance/arrogance/insensitivity. what i think folks look from the seer, is humility and piousness.

instead his action appear one of aadambaram and does not behoove well of a madam which claims ascetism to be its primary virtue.

again, you might feel it is ok. would be interesting to read the comments in the tamil hindu which i have given the url. vox populi.

 

[tks]

the issue, afaik, and it is only a personal thing, is one of modesty. come what may, in india, still, the automobile is viewed with a little respect. coming inside the temple in an auto, appears to me, indicates more extravagance/arrogance/insensitivity. what i think folks look from the seer, is humility and piousness.

instead his action appear one of aadambaram and does not behoove well of a madam which claims ascetism to be its primary virtue.

again, you might feel it is ok. would be interesting to read the comments in the tamil hindu which i have given the url. vox populi.

What is modest or not is in the eye of the beholder.. Madam is a private organization and those who do not care for their operation need not worry about its longevity or welfare.

Car or truck or plane or walking are just means of transportation for some. For others it is a prestige issue as to what mode of transportation they use.

My point is that people who tend to be critical are projecting their personal value into the situation - I cannot draw any conclusion about anyone's character if a religious leader or some other leader came by walking or by helicopter. If there is a public figure who is viewed by many with respect (regardless of how I feel) and if he or she does not break any laws including local laws then I do not see any issue with what the person does.

What the seer or anyone does is their business and if they are minding their business then making judgement that is critical only reveals about my biases. If I think car is a big deal it will appear that this whole thing is a show off activity.

If someone's sensibilities are affected they need not support that organization.

I do not care for Pope's visit or Dalai Lama's visit or some seer's visit to any place. Why judge and attribute negative views based on our subjective assessment of what such a persons does.

My view is that world is better off when live and let live. If someone's action affects me in a direct manner then it will be a cause for concern.

Those who know what sannyasi are supposed act per our tradition will not see any of these actions as being improper.

 

[prasad1]

What was expected of a sanyasi 1000years ago is different then what we can expect from them today.
In this day and age of security and speed, they may use all the gadget, like phone, computer, car, airplane etc.

 

[kunjuppu]

What is modest or not is in the eye of the beholder.. Madam is a private organization and those who do not care for their operation need not worry about its longevity or welfare.

Car or truck or plane or walking are just means of transportation for some. For others it is a prestige issue as to what mode of transportation they use.

My point is that people who tend to be critical are projecting their personal value into the situation - I cannot draw any conclusion about anyone's character if a religious leader or some other leader came by walking or by helicopter. If there is a public figure who is viewed by many with respect (regardless of how I feel) and if he or she does not break any laws including local laws then I do not see any issue with what the person does.

What the seer or anyone does is their business and if they are minding their business then making judgement that is critical only reveals about my biases. If I think car is a big deal it will appear that this whole thing is a show off activity.

If someone's sensibilities are affected they need not support that organization.

I do not care for Pope's visit or Dalai Lama's visit or some seer's visit to any place. Why judge and attribute negative views based on our subjective assessment of what such a persons does.

My view is that world is better off when live and let live. If someone's action affects me in a direct manner then it will be a cause for concern.

Those who know what sannyasi are supposed act per our tradition will not see any of these actions as being improper.

you missed the point completely. and i did not explain it well either.

it is NOT the fact that he was using the car. it is using the car INSIDE THE TEMPLE. there is a whole slew of difference here.

had he alighted outside the temple, and walked in, it would be ok and not be news. ok?

 

[tks]

you missed the point completely. and i did not explain it well either.

it is NOT the fact that he was using the car. it is using the car INSIDE THE TEMPLE. there is a whole slew of difference here.

had he alighted outside the temple, and walked in, it would be ok and not be news. ok?

Indeed I missed the point of emphasis.

Now I am not familiar with temple customs and various shastras associated with rituals (and how far one can enter and when one has to walk etc)

Temple has many layers and except for the inner Garbhagriha where the deity is hosted, I have seen all kinds of vehicles enter for maintenance and other purposes.

Again I fail to see what the big deal is given that he is a public figure. There are all kinds of considerations like security etc.

In olden days Kings came all the way in their elephants or whatever other means. Car is the modern version of an elephant.

Again while I am not knowledgeable about specific temple Shastras I do not know what rule was broken? There may be a tradition that every Tom , Dick and Harry cannot go all the way inside in their vehicle but exceptions are made everywhere for public figures.

If he did violate the temple customs then it is up to the temple authorities to kick the person out but that did not happen.
I still do not know rule what he violated and whose rule that is..

In any case it is between two private entities and not the business of others in my view - though public can project their own value system.

 

[biswa]

If a vehicle can come inside a temple, should not people be allowed to wear their foot wear inside as well?

 

[tks]

If a vehicle can come inside a temple, should not people be allowed to wear their foot wear inside as well?

"Inside" is a very context sensitive word. Temples in India are like a big mall with many entrances before reaching the inner Garbagriha.
So without knowing the facts as to what 'inside' means it is difficult to pass judgement. My guess it went through where people where foot wear. That is just a guess