Theory of Karma

[sravna]

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sravna, spirituality starts with imagination, dwells in imagination, ends in imaginations, and solves no problems, only creates problems. This Invisible Pink Unicorn has nothing to do with reality, nothing to do with problem solving, no use to nobody nowhere nohow. Knowledge about this IPU is no knowledge.

Cheers!

Shri Nara,

Do you understand that you are arguing against your own stated position when you say spirituality can create only problems? Is it or Isn't it true that compassion, love etc. are the values that you hold high? Anything espousing these values can only help in solving real problems and not in creating problems. We need something which tries to make humans more so and not in making machines out of them. Spirituality does the former whereas science and technology does the latter.

 

[prasad1]

I think it is futile to argue this issue. We have the very strong point of views. It is not going to change by arguing.
IMO some of us see the earth flat, and that satisfies them. Others want to know more, they believe that we are not limited.
Similarly some of us do not believe in accidents, we think accidents are just unexplained events. Some of us believe that there is a cause for everything that happens. So we postulate Brahman, Karma, etc as we do not know everything.
In words of Jaggi Vasudev:
'The sign of intelligence is that you are constantly wondering. ..... are always dead sure about every damn thing they are doing in their life.'

 

[Nara]

... Is it or Isn't it true that compassion, love etc. are the values that you hold high?

sravna, these are not spiritual values, nothing to do with spirituality. True love and compassion is what we all are born with to one degree or another. It is talk of spirituality that takes us away from these fine physical qualities into a purely delusional world and makes many otherwise nice people act in abominable ways.

Cheers!

p.s. I am actually doing an experiment here, both sravna and I know we will not convince each other. My experiment is to see who is going to give up first, or is it going to be a third person giving sage advice to both of us.

p.s.2 -- ha, after posting I see that the third person sage advice won out

 

[prasad1]

sravna, these are not spiritual values, nothing to do with spirituality. True love and compassion is what we all are born with to one degree or another. It is talk of spirituality that takes us away from these fine physical qualities into a purely delusional world and makes many otherwise nice people act in abominable ways.

Cheers!

p.s. I am actually doing an experiment here, both sravna and I know we will not convince each other. My experiment is to see who is going to give up first, or is it going to be a third person giving sage advice to both of us.

p.s.2 -- ha, after posting I see that the third person sage advice won out

Thanks

 

[sravna]

I think it is at least necessary for one to let the other side know that they are other realities that they may have to check out That way they do not have to go through a reality check

 

[Yamaka]

Shri Nara,

Do you understand that you are arguing against your own stated position when you say spirituality can create only problems? Is it or Isn't it true that compassion, love etc. are the values that you hold high? Anything espousing these values can only help in solving real problems and not in creating problems. We need something which tries to make humans more so and not in making machines out of them. Spirituality does the former whereas science and technology does the latter.

Dear Sravna:

Let us first define the term "Spirituality" - my dictionary says that it is the mental state of being dedicated to Religion and God, or some Supernatural Power.

It does not say anything about compassion, love or justice etc.

We have at least three major Religions in this world:

Of the 6 billion people in this world, about 600 millions are stated Atheists, Agnostics, Naturalists and the like. About 2 billion are Judea-Christians and about 1.5 billions are Muslims and about 1 billions are Hindus. The remaining 0.9 billions are in China and the former Soviet Union, most of whom could be Atheists, but we don't know for sure, because the State ordered them to be Atheistic.

Somewhere in the Milky Way, Ishwara takes control of the Hindus, Allah regulates the lives of Muslims, Jesus controls the lives of Christians. These religions are fundamentally different, and their rules of engagements are quite varied and opposing and antagonistic.

Don't you think by design Conflict and Mayhem is built in here ? This is the problem we see today in this world.

On the other hand, Science and Technology has immensely enhanced our quality of life (with lots of love and compassion) and has given us more spare time to dwell in imagination, hallucination, illusions and the like.

And, S&T knows also how to immortalize Man by human cloning.

I can clone Sravna without any difficulty with just a handshake! I have been writing about the ease of this procedure for quite sometime.

I believe Immortality of Man is the final nail in the coffin of the concept of God, Spirituality and the attendant Janma Poorva Karma Theory of the Theists.

More later...



ps, You and your Theists must realize that love, compassion, justice are attributes you see in ALL people including Atheists. You just can't hog it for yourself... that's very mean and is very wrong. Cheers.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna:

And, S&T knows also how to immortalize Man by human cloning.

I can clone Sravna without any difficulty with just a handshake! I have been writing about the ease of this procedure for quite sometime.

I believe Immortality of Man is the final nail in the coffin of the concept of God, Spirituality and the attendant Janma Poorva Karma Theory of the Theists.

More later...

By saying this you hit the nail on the coffin of S&T. If there is nothing called mind or if there is no mental realm and only the physical, will cloning sravna or yamaka result in exactly the same person without an iota of difference? It is like taking a xerox copy or duplicating a machine. Is that what would actually happen?

 

[ShivKC]

Dear Sravna:


Of the 6 billion people in this world, about 600 millions are stated Atheists, Agnostics, Naturalists and the like. About 2 billion are Judea-Christians and about 1.5 billions are Muslims and about 1 billions are Hindus. The remaining 0.9 billions are in China and the former Soviet Union, most of whom could be Atheists, but we don't know for sure, because the State ordered them to be Atheistic.

Somewhere in the Milky Way, Ishwara takes control of the Hindus, Allah regulates the lives of Muslims, Jesus controls the lives of Christians. These religions are fundamentally different, and their rules of engagements are quite varied and opposing and antagonistic.

Don't you think by design Conflict and Mayhem is built in here ? This is the problem we see today in this world.

On the other hand, Science and Technology has immensely enhanced our quality of life (with lots of love and compassion) and has given us more spare time to dwell in imagination, hallucination, illusions and the like.

lets wind the clock back by 3000 years. 2mn jeudo-christians/islam were not there and by your share 50% are out in data. hinduism was there, but only confined to Brahmins, and rest were tribals. china was civilized well, but they never had gods like romans or greeks of that time line.

in nut shell, 3 millennial ago, there was no religion, but where was the science?

in my view, the quest for un-known power is what the inspiration for science, not atheism.. gimme a crystal clear answer to it.. science, i mean pursuit for un-known,pursuit toward mystery is the prime mover for science, and science is the by-product of religion..

Prove me , why science has not developed so fast in the last 3000 years, when you are so scared to answer when theists ask you why evolution has not made any considerable difference in the human race for the last 3000 years?

to conclude, i say bold and underline, Science is the by product of religion, and without religious ideologies, science wouldnt have reached this much..

common' Yam, open a thread on this topic, we can share some juicy data..

 

[Yamaka]

By saying this you hit the nail on the coffin of S&T. If there is nothing called mind or if there is no mental realm and only the physical, will cloning sravna or yamaka result in exactly the same person without an iota of difference? It is like taking a xerox copy or duplicating a machine. Is that what would actually happen?

Dear Sravna:

I have been saying that Brain is the seat of Mind... Brain is a part of all primates including humans. Brain is in the cloned mammals and will be there in cloned Sravna, Yamaka, Saidevo, Nara, K, Songom etc...

You asked whether the cloned Sravna will be as spiritualistic as the Sravna I am writing to is the million dollar question that S&T wants to answer!

That's the majesty of S & T.

My gut feeling at this time is (recall, what makes me to earn "bragging rights" and happiness! Lol)

Sravna's genotype will be 100% in the cloned form. But phenotype could be little different depending on where he is raised.

Since you just can't replicate the living environment of the Sravna today, the clones can't be raised in the identical physical environment. Therefore, the phenotype could be little different.

But, the proof of the concept will be there: If you raise in the identical environment, Sravna clones will be identical genotypically and phenotypically.

Wait & watch.

p.s By a mere handshake, I can pick up enough of Sravna's epithelial cells, which my wife says she can grow in her lab in a petri dish for ever! Then leisurely, I can transfer his nucleus to a human egg donated by many women in the In Vitro Fertilization Lab close to my Lab... surrogate mothers are easily available these days... Boom, a cloned Sravna will be here in about 9 months! That's the power of S & T today.

 

[Yamaka]

lets wind the clock back by 3000 years. 2mn jeudo-christians/islam were not there and by your share 50% are out in data. hinduism was there, but only confined to Brahmins, and rest were tribals. china was civilized well, but they never had gods like romans or greeks of that time line.

in nut shell, 3 millennial ago, there was no religion, but where was the science?

in my view, the quest for un-known power is what the inspiration for science, not atheism.. gimme a crystal clear answer to it.. science, i mean pursuit for un-known,pursuit toward mystery is the prime mover for science, and science is the by-product of religion..

Prove me , why science has not developed so fast in the last 3000 years, when you are so scared to answer when theists ask you why evolution has not made any considerable difference in the human race for the last 3000 years?

to conclude, i say bold and underline, Science is the by product of religion, and without religious ideologies, science wouldnt have reached this much..

common' Yam, open a thread on this topic, we can share some juicy data..

Dear Shiv:

I don't have any dispute on the History of Man and his Religion.

I used to write about the Legacy of Tradition also...Most of the Theists are Traditionalists...

My forefathers from the days of caves and hunting for food were bewildered by the invisible creatures of viruses (DNA and RNA type), bacteria and other deadly fungal organisms..

He could not fathom as to what's happening to him and his family, many were killed very mysteriously and got sick without any reason(!)... in the end he succumbed to the easy concept of Religion and God...to calm his senses of fear down.

But some of my own forefathers did not buy this idea... they were thinking.. thinking and boom the Science of Bacteriology and Virology came into being... and he conquered all most all the pathogens around him! Medical Science flourished, it cured most of the diseases today. More to go...

I don't believe Science is the product of Religion.... they are in two independent track....

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna:

I have been saying that Brain is the seat of Mind... Brain is a part of all primates including humans. Brain is in the cloned mammals and will be there in cloned Sravna, Yamaka, Saidevo, Nara, K, Songom etc...

You asked whether the cloned Sravna will be as spiritualistic as the Sravna I am writing to is the million dollar question that S&T wants to answer!

That's the majesty of S & T.

My gut feeling at this time is (recall, what makes me to earn "bragging rights" and happiness! Lol)

Sravna's genotype will be 100% in the cloned form. But phenotype could be little different depending on where he is raised.

Since you just can't replicate the living environment of the Sravna today, the clones can't be raised in the identical physical environment. Therefore, the phenotype could be little different.

But, the proof of the concept will be there: If you raise in the identical environment, Sravna clones will be identical genotypically and phenotypically.

Wait & watch.

p.s By a mere handshake, I can pick up enough of Sravna's epithelial cells, which my wife says she can grow in her lab in a petri dish for ever! Then leisurely, I can transfer his nucleus to a human egg donated by many women in the In Vitro Fertilization Lab close to my Lab... surrogate mothers are easily available these days... Boom, a cloned Sravna will be here in about 9 months! That's the power of S & T today.

Sounds like an interesting story First, an important question that you may have to answer. What about the consciousness that the actual and the cloned have? Do they have identical sense of "I" ? Does the clone feel in the same way that he is sravna as sravna feels?

 

[Yamaka]

Sounds like an interesting story First, an important question that you may have to answer. What about the consciousness that the actual and the cloned have? Do they have identical sense of "I" ? Does the clone feel in the same way that he is sravna as sravna feels?

Dear Sravna:

Since we have not yet cloned Sravna, I can only give my educated guess:

As I indicated earlier, if I raise the cloned Sravna in the identical environment as the parent Sravna, his "I-ness" will be identical to his parent.

Because genotype and environment are identical..

But in reality, can you create an identical living environment for the cloned Sravna? That you have to answer.

I believe it is very very difficult... therefore, you have to accept some variation in the phenotype..

What say you?

ps. If we allow cloned Yamaka and Sravna in the same living condition to grow, perhaps, Sravna will become Yamaka phenotypically... ha.. ha.. how egoistic this stinky Yamaka is! Lol

 

[ShivKC]

Dear Shiv:

I don't have any dispute on the History of Man and his Religion.

I used to write about the Legacy of Tradition also...Most of the Theists are Traditionalists...

My forefathers from the days of caves and hunting for food were bewildered by the invisible creatures of viruses (DNA and RNA type), bacteria and other deadly fungal organisms..

He could not fathom as to what's happening to him and his family, many were killed very mysteriously and got sick without any reason(!)... in the end he succumbed to the easy concept of Religion and God...to calm his senses of fear down.

But some of my own forefathers did not buy this idea... they were thinking.. thinking and boom the Science of Bacteriology and Virology came into being... and he conquered all most all the pathogens around him! Medical Science flourished, it cured most of the diseases today. More to go...

I don't believe Science is the product of Religion.... they are in two independent track....

Yam, i think you are terribly wrong in this analysis and top of it you havent answered my question to the point, in asking ' why science didnot develop when atheism was at its heights 3000 years ago"

anyways, coming to your point, do you know,that the early medicine and vaccines were invented by theists and religious orders who tried to invent them with one single motivation called "alleviating the pain of humanity', a saying inspired by their religions but not by atheist teaching which calls for survival of fittest. you would have read about the success story of pharma giant MERC, where they gave the first river worm drug free in japan, with the motive of 'Alleviating pain of humanity'..



chief, i would be glad to have an engaging dialogue with you, provided you stick and respond to the point.. i would love to do share some rejoinders with you.

 

[ShivKC]

I don't believe Science is the product of Religion.... they are in two independent track....

off late, isnt that a suicidal argument, from an atheist ?

 

[Yamaka]

Hello ALL:

When I talk about cloned Sravna, Yamaka etc.. I deliberately ignored the contribution of Mitochondrial Genetics..

If someone has any question, just shoot one at Y, he will be only thrilled to answer such inquisitiveness...

Cheers.

 

[Yamaka]

Yam, i think you are terribly wrong in this analysis and top of it you havent answered my question to the point, in asking ' why science didnot develop when atheism was at its heights 3000 years ago"

anyways, coming to your point, do you know,that the early medicine and vaccines were invented by theists and religious orders who tried to invent them with one single motivation called "alleviating the pain of humanity', a saying inspired by their religions but not by atheist teaching which calls for survival of fittest. you would have read about the success story of pharma giant MERC, where they gave the first river worm drug free in japan, with the motive of 'Alleviating pain of humanity'..



chief, i would be glad to have an engaging dialogue with you, provided you stick and respond to the point.. i would love to do share some rejoinders with you.

Shiv:

If you ask whether early Theists contributed to Science, my answer is YES. Very many.

Eg. The Austrian Monk Gregor Mendel who is considered as the Father of Genetics...

Basic inquisitiveness and the NEED was the Mother of ALL Inventions and Discoveries in S& T.

Peace.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna:

Since we have not yet cloned Sravna, I can only give my educated guess:

As I indicated earlier, if I raise the cloned Sravna in the identical environment as the parent Sravna, his "I-ness" will be identical to his parent.

Because genotype and environment are identical..

But in reality, can you create an identical living environment for the cloned Sravna? That you have to answer.

I believe it is very very difficult... therefore, you have to accept some variation in the phenotype..

What say you?

ps. If we allow cloned Yamaka and Sravna in the same living condition to grow, perhaps, Sravna will become Yamaka phenotypically... ha.. ha.. how egoistic this stinky Yamaka is! Lol

Dear Shri Yamaka,

Your reply sounds you are not sure yourself. Also if you have the same "I" ness , I think you say that the "I" ness is also duplicated. One's consciousness is something that is unique to one's body and is therefore unique. Say, if two clones are produced at the same time from the original, the clones cannot be 100% similar as being 100% similar and created at the same time would mean they occupy the same space because their energies are identical. That should rule out the concept of 100% similarity and also identical feeling of "I" ness. The clone retains its own identity and cannot be the original.

 

[ShivKC]

Dear Shri Yamaka,

Your reply sounds you are not sure yourself. Also if you have the same "I" ness , I think you say that the "I" ness is also duplicated. One's consciousness is something that is unique to one's body and is therefore unique. Say, if two clones are produced at the same time from the original, the clones cannot be 100% similar as being 100% similar and created at the same time would mean they occupy the same space because their energies are identical. That should rule out the concept of 100% similarity and also identical feeling of "I" ness. The clone retains its own identity and cannot be the original.

good response. i call it as 'absolute' and attribute that nature to god.

there is an interesting philosophical debate about 'logic' which relies totally on absolutes. worth making a google on this subject, which claims logics are not relevant unless we fix it to absolutes.

 

[Yamaka]

off late, isnt that a suicidal argument, from an atheist ?

For me, Religion is based on a Belief, as proscribed by a Holy Book (Vedas/Puranas/Scriptures, Koran, Bible or Torah).

Science based on REASONING: Why, Why Not and How type of questions are answered very methodically by hypothesis testing by experimentation.

Therefore, they are two independent ideas, in two different tracks.

They will NOT meet.

 

[ShivKC]

For me, Religion is based on a Belief, as proscribed by a Holy Book (Vedas/Puranas/Scriptures, Koran, Bible or Torah).

Science based on REASONING: Why, Why Not and How type of questions are answered very methodically by hypothesis testing by experimentation.

Therefore, they are two independent ideas, in two different tracks.

They will NOT meet.

Yam, its perfect.. we both are in the same track now.. except one small deviation, "reasoning".. will share some thoughts about it in few days time.

PS: I pressed the LIKE button for that post of yours

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Shri Yamaka,

Your reply sounds you are not sure yourself. Also if you have the same "I" ness , I think you say that the "I" ness is also duplicated. One's consciousness is something that is unique to one's body and is therefore unique. Say, if two clones are produced at the same time from the original, the clones cannot be 100% similar as being 100% similar and created at the same time would mean they occupy the same space because their energies are identical. That should rule out the concept of 100% similarity and also identical feeling of "I" ness. The clone retains its own identity and cannot be the original.

Dear Sravna:

I ask you again, "Can you recreate the identical living environment that you grew up?"

If yes, then my answer will be YES, the clones will be 100% identical to the original parent.

The key here is identical environment.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna:

I ask you again, "Can you recreate the identical living environment that you grew up?"

If yes, then my answer will be YES, the clones will be 100% identical to the original parent.

The key here is identical environment.

OK Shri Yamaka, as a scientist you should be knowing what you say though I have my doubts.

 

[Yamaka]

"To possess future you need to conquer past"-- Sravna.

For Yamaka:

"To possess future you need to understand the past." I will not try to re-write the past or the history.

 

[Yamaka]

For those interested in learning about identical twins (very similar to clones), please follow the life of Brian Brothers (US Tennis Stars, Doubles Champions), and other identical twins born and living in this world today.

People say they behave identically. One may ask about their "I"-ness, Soul and Consciousness etc.. I bet they are identical... prove me wrong!

How did this happen?

After fertilization, the egg divided equally producing the Identical Twins.

More later...

 

[natpushpa]

In the present scientific age man has made great advances over his primitive ancestors and vastly improved his conditions of living. Today the life expectancy is much longer, hardships remarkably reduced, avenues of amusement increased manifold. In short, life is made much easier, thanks to the scientific revolution. But in spite of these advancements, and at times because of them, there is lack of peace in the minds of the people. Mr. Paul Brunton in his book ‘The Spiritual Crisis of Man’ pictures the character of a common man: “Exposed to the agitations of our age as we are, it is harder to keep a serene mind than ever before. Discouraging news heard too often and distracting fears have become too insidious to allow us to keep serenity without earning it the hard way. Without inward peace, without outward security, modern man, who for so long pitied his ancient and medieval fathers, is now himself to be pitied. There are alarming features in the growth of his emotional disequilibrium and mental instability. There are neurotic excitements and pathological turmoil’s , vehement passions and dangerous indecision in his mind and life. A dismal undertone runs beneath the world’s everyday talk. Men’s brows are intermittently wrinkled with worries as the hopes rise and fall alternatively. They live in long drawn suspense and anxious expectations. They look to each other for strength but find it not. Fear replaces faith, and perplexity shuttles to and fro with confidence. There is foreboding in their hearts and bewilderment in their minds.” While there are many people who have gleefully accepted the gifts of science and are trying to grab as much enjoyment as they can , exploiting the products of science in the process, there are a few , who have stood steadfast heroically amidst the hustle and bustle of modern life adhering to the age-old guidance in living. But the vast majority are a confused lot not knowing which path to follow, how to conduct one’s life in the right manner. To quote Paul Brunton again : “If many have succumbed to the unleashed lures of short lived sensualism, others have risen to the higher call of spiritual seeking; still others find their satisfaction in enthusiastic adherence ‘to political parties or economic doctrines bearing the flag of altruistic slogans but leading in the end to demonic violence ...If the crisis has clarified much for a few minds, it has confused everything for many minds. They do not know where to turn for truth, nor what to believe in the present, nor what to expect in the future. They are bewildered by the paralysing uncertainties and despondent over the staggering headlines, which stare at them daily from the tops of news papers. Such events make most of them feel they are being carried along , they do not know where. The result is that they do also not know how to deal with the doubts that infect their consciousness or the obstacles that interfere with their conduct. “The recent advances made by the modern sciences have shattered the faith of many people in the scriptures. A closer scrutiny reveals that all that the modern scientific achievements have provided is means of overcoming impediments in life thereby making living more comfortable. But it fails to provide us with guidance about the right mode of conduct of life. That is the function of the spiritual teachings of the scriptures. The scriptures show us the path of correctly leading our lives so as to fulfil the purpose of life and attain everlasting bliss, while science provides the means of gaining relief from obstacles in life. Thus the scientific discoveries cannot negate the teachings of the scriptures which are much beyond the realm of science. Also the scriptures do not contradict the empirical facts that are being discovered by the intensive scientific studies. The scriptures instruct us metaphysical principles which explain the nature of the universe and the purpose of life. They guide us in the right conduct of life so that we succeed in fulfilling the purpose of life and refrain from deviating from the correct path. They however do not describe the detailed workings of the universe. That is the domain of science. Scientific progress is necessary and inevitable. So also is the spiritual pursuit. The two are not incompatible. Such an integrated approach would enable us to live life more purposefully and peacefully. Natpushpa.