Theory of Karma

[sravna]

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Dear Scientifically Minded,

Tell me do science and technology in any way elevate your mental life other than through gratification of the senses? It wont and can never unless it embraces the spiritual approach of considering mind as a real entity. If I follow spirituality I can be happy even without wealth and physical comforts. But without the mental happiness my wealth and comforts even if immense don't really mean much. So I value and give more credence to the spiritual knowledge than my scientific knowledge. Even worse, quenching the physical more and more only dilutes more and more the mental quality of the people IMO.

 

[sarang]

I do not see any conflict in pursuit of spirituality, religion and science. All can coexist as they have done in our tradition. Only the adharmic practices in earning and spending wealth is to be condemned.

Dear Scientifically Minded,

Tell me do science and technology in any way elevate your mental life other than through gratification of the senses? It wont and can never unless it embraces the spiritual approach of considering mind as a real entity. If I follow spirituality I can be happy even without wealth and physical comforts. But without the mental happiness my wealth and comforts even if immense don't really mean much. So I value and give more credence to the spiritual knowledge than my scientific knowledge. Even worse, quenching the physical more and more only dilutes more and more the mental quality of the people IMO.

 

[subbudu1]

Dear Folks,

Karma as a physical event is governed beyond doubt by cause and effect relationship. A mosquito biting a man and a disease developing are straight cause and effect relationship. Now lets say there are two people in a room. Circumstances are similar. Both are equally near the window. Potential to contract malaria is the same. Both were bitten by two mosquitos each. But only one was bitten by the malarial mosquito. This one developed malaria. May be on further exploration some other factors can be found out like blood temperature, allergy level, immunity etc etc. But these are day to day changes and any of the two people could have been in the same situation . So why does that one have to suffer. The Theory of Karma comes here and says something must have been in the person's actions to get malaria at that point of time. Here the person himself is considered faulty for suffering.

If we take the case of a 1 minute old baby and supposedly somebody who brought out that baby from the womb immediately dropped it and it hurt itself and may be died. What did that baby do? It is not apparent. So karma provides a convenient explanation to talk about suffering.

In some situations it helps people console themselves , in some situations the feeling can be fatalistic. There is however no practical way we can demonstrate that everytime a person is enjoying the fruits of his or her own actions.

Is it then not a better thing, to take it apart, and say, well these are my goals in life, come what obstacle may,I will use my effort to turn circumstances in my fair. Accidents can happen but they need not be fatal if the best effort is put. One american commented that Indians are fatalistic and underdeveloped because we believe in Karma. There is thing hanging over our heads and I am not immune to it either. Would it have been much better without this belief?

 

[renuka]

Dear Scientifically Minded,

Tell me do science and technology in any way elevate your mental life other than through gratification of the senses? It wont and can never unless it embraces the spiritual approach of considering mind as a real entity. If I follow spirituality I can be happy even without wealth and physical comforts. But without the mental happiness my wealth and comforts even if immense don't really mean much. So I value and give more credence to the spiritual knowledge than my scientific knowledge. Even worse, quenching the physical more and more only dilutes more and more the mental quality of the people IMO.

I think we should look deeper into what Srvana just wrote.He was not telling us to be inactive and dont pursuit a life with material comforts but he was telling us how spirituality makes the icing on the cake for us.

I have seen many co doctors here who once they open their private practice and see money flowing in well..resort to all sorts of adharmic ways to double even what they already have.

That is a person who doesnt have Dharma flowing in his veins but on the other hand a doctor who has Dharma in his veins will be happy with what he has dharmically earned.
If at all income drops sometime or the other..he will not despair but look for measures to improve and still he will not steer away from the path of dharma.

Some of my friends I have seen when their practise hits a plateau will do worst things possible to increase it.

Anyway a healthy person as defined by WHO(World Health Organization):

Health is a state of complete physical, mental, and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity.

Mental well being is best answered by Spirituality.

 

[natpushpa]

Dear Sri Sravna, Well said. ' without the mental happiness my wealth and comforts even if immense don't really mean much. So I value and give more credence to the spiritual knowledge than my scientific knowledge.'You have clearly pointed out but however I doubt how many of us have agreed to this and ready to follow it in practice. Natpushpa

 

[sravna]

Dear Folks,

One american commented that Indians are fatalistic and underdeveloped because we believe in Karma. There is thing hanging over our heads and I am not immune to it either. Would it have been much better without this belief?

Dear Shri Subbudu,

The really spiritually inclined wouldn't take that attitude. He would be inclined towards doing his duties without looking forward to the benefits.

Yes India is a nation far behind the western nations, according to western standards. But I do not think that is anything to feel low about. But use our own standards of spiritual development. We are, at least we were, miles ahead of any westerner. I think our real success will come from employing our own strengths and not in imitating the strengths of others.

 

[sravna]

As Sarang says Spirituality and Science can co-exist. The problem is when science is taken as the primary source of knowledge and relegates spirituality to secondary existence. If we afford primary importance to spirituality our mind would benefit and be fit and even channel our endeavors in science and technology for benevolent purposes.

The reverse situation is very undesirable and spirituality would also vanish sooner or later.

 

[renuka]

Dear Shri Subbudu,

The really spiritually inclined wouldn't take that attitude. He would be inclined towards doing his duties without looking forward to the benefits.

Yes India is a nation far behind the western nations, according to western standards. But I do not think that is anything to feel low about. But use our own standards of spiritual development. We are, at least we were, miles ahead of any westerner. I think our real success will come from employing our own strengths and not in imitating the strengths of others.

But at times I see that westerners are also very spiritually inclined and not as materialistic as what we think but on the contrary its we Indians are getting bitten by the bug of denying spirituality.

you guys should just check out how much westerners know even about Hinduism that can put anyone of us to shame.

I had an email sometime back where one Indian guy wrote that its a worry some trend in us Hindus/Indians to be denying spirituality and he said when an Avatar descends He upholds Dharma and annihilates the evil doers and the next avatar might just wipe out all the new breed of Indians if we are not careful!!!

 

[renuka]

Dear Sravna,

You write well and its very motivating to read your post.
Please save what you write and may be you can print it some day for the benefit of others.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

You write well and its very motivating to read your post.
Please save what you write and may be you can print it some day for the benefit of others.

Dear Renuka,

I never thought of myself as a good writer. Definitely not when writing in this forum, among a galaxy of superstar writers. But if my writing does make an impact I am happy.

 

[prasad1]

Post#451-460
Now I know why I came to this site. This is great discussion.
I agree that spiritual Knowledge is the key to happiness, and is superior to any other kind of knowledge.

But do not deny scientific knowledge. For most of the individuals, the spiritual inquiry comes only after basic needs are fulfilled. Also the quest for spiritual knowledge is probably "grace of God", 'Karma', or some other factors.
Sravana you are modest. Like Renuka said you are good writer.

Sravana, I have one question about your quote at the bottom of the post.
How do you conquer the past? You can learn from past, but you cannot change it, unless you have a time machine. LOL

 

[prasad1]

But at times I see that westerners are also very spiritually inclined and not as materialistic as what we think but on the contrary its we Indians are getting bitten by the bug of denying spirituality.

you guys should just check out how much westerners know even about Hinduism that can put anyone of us to shame.

I had an email sometime back where one Indian guy wrote that its a worry some trend in us Hindus/Indians to be denying spirituality and he said when an Avatar descends He upholds Dharma and annihilates the evil doers and the next avatar might just wipe out all the new breed of Indians if we are not careful!!!

Yes I have been in mixed gatherings where the Indian person gives completely wrong statement about Hinduism, and a foreigner corrects him. This is very important that Indians read up on your own religion. Please take care that you have broad knowledge, because your view is interpreted as an Indian-view. Before criticizing Hinduism in a public forum know your audience. We agree or disagree in this forum because we are all 'Indian'.

 

[sravna]

Dear Prasad,

Thanks! You really do not need a separate time machine to conquer past! Your mind can accomplish that if it doesn't let emotions and undesirable feelings rankle in it and so pave the way for peace

 

[sangom]

Dear Sanghom:

Can't you explain all this by shear randomness?

Accidents do happen which can't be explained.

Many of the crimes committed in present life is taken care of by the Criminal Justice system. Not all crimes, not always, I concede.

Likewise, it's possible that your good behavior also gets good recognition, although not always.

In any case, PJK is impossible to explain.

Cheers.

Shri Yamaka,

Randomness is an equally valid explanation and probably the primitive man could not understand that he was simply a victim of randomness. When it rains and the anthill gets destroyed several hundreds or thousands of ants are killed, but some do escape and live to rebuild the anthill once again. I used to ponder over this and it used to appear to me that perhaps the ants with their very undeveloped brain, did accept this random, sudden death as just natural - as natural as we take aging. But humans won't take lying down, aging or any of the disabilities of aging and are eager to overcome those disabilities somehow.

In a similar way the human mind, it looks to me, refuses to be satisfied with death as the end of everything and feels an urge to project its existence on imaginary lines, forward in time. Hence all this belief in rebirth, Karma and all that.

 

[sravna]

Nothing is totally random. Even if it appears random it is only on the surface. Deep down everything order prevails. For example, I think it is not possible to generate a truly random number series. Given a series of "random" numbers , the number next in the series can be predicted with greater than chance probability. Any mathematician out there can throw some light on this?

 

[prasad1]

Shri Yamaka,

Randomness is an equally valid explanation and probably the primitive man could not understand that he was simply a victim of randomness. When it rains and the anthill gets destroyed several hundreds or thousands of ants are killed, but some do escape and live to rebuild the anthill once again. I used to ponder over this and it used to appear to me that perhaps the ants with their very undeveloped brain, did accept this random, sudden death as just natural - as natural as we take aging. But humans won't take lying down, aging or any of the disabilities of aging and are eager to overcome those disabilities somehow.

In a similar way the human mind, it looks to me, refuses to be satisfied with death as the end of everything and feels an urge to project its existence on imaginary lines, forward in time. Hence all this belief in rebirth, Karma and all that.

Do the ants have 'faith', 'hope', 'desire to grow', and other human emotions? I do not know. They probably do not care, some humans do.

 

[sravna]

Also it is the mind that is possessed by humans that is capable of seeing order unlike mindless organisms whose physical senses just perceive the physical world and are not able to correlate the disparate information. The deeper the order is hidden, the deeper the truth and greater has to be the intuition. Even scientific knowledge is formed by recognition of order in seemingly random things but it is limited by the fact that it requires physical evidence as validation.

 

[Nara]

... Perhaps due to all these circumstances (and also his PJK)

.....In the above, I think I find some example of PJK. One is led into the circumstances which will cause the PJK to get fructified.

..., PJK gives each person the most conducive circumstances for fruition of itself.

.... it is not as though the slab knows the PJK of the worker but the worker's PJK leads him there at the exact moment when the slab had to fall due to physical laws.

Sangom sir, is this a parody or do you really believe in PJK? I ask this question because this post seems to indicate belief in PJK which I feel is uncharacteristic coming from you.

We live in large social groupings, so our actions are never like a tree falling in an uninhabited forest. When things happen to us, very often they are done to us by others, good or bad. So, this PJK, if true, has to maintain an ever growing multidimensional n to n relational database with links going in every possible direction, and keep account of everyone's balances etc.

How is this done? One answer is God is all powerful and has this capability. This is really lame. Such thinking leads one to silly superstitions like earthquakes, tsunamis, pandemic deceases, terrorist attacks, are all god given punishments based on karma, in other words, the victims had it coming.

How exactly the PJK works is yet unknown but belief in PJK helps explain the inequalities in a way which may make people to behave slightly better, imo.

If this is a Machiavellian attempt to make people behave better, then it is understandable, but I would still reject it as it unnecessarily makes the entire population superstitious.

But the problem is the notion that there is some sort of cosmic justice system that puts all perceived wrongs right, from an anthropomorphic perspective. This is the root fallacy.

Things happen. Culprits sometimes get away, and the innocents get punished sometimes. That is just the way it is. The natural world is insentient, it does not care, it can't care, it just is. It affects every living being, some survive and flourish, some don't. There is no PJK database that protects some individuals and punishes some others, immediately or later.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Nara,

The point is humans look for order in what seems random. Scientists also believe in order in the physical world. Otherwise science could not have progressed. In the same way, some others look for order at the mental and spiritual level. If looking for order in the physical world is sensible which is indeed the case why not look for order at the mental and spiritual level. Why restrict to the physical plane if you can make satisfactory explanations to explain things like, why certain events happen to certain people which on surface is inexplicable?

 

[Nara]

....Scientists also believe in order in the physical world. Otherwise science could not have progressed.

sravna, I think both the premise and the conclusion you have derived from it are wrong.

In the same way, some others look for order at the mental and spiritual level.

We have been here before, mental is only physical, and "spiritual" is a delusion.

Why restrict to the physical plane if you can make satisfactory explanations to explain things like, why certain events happen to certain people which on surface is inexplicable?

If, let me emphasize the if, there is an explanation for why certain things happen to people, it has to come from careful theorizing, experimentation, observation, analysis, synthesis, and independent verification, aka scientific process. Trying to find answers in the spiritual level is like looking for the lost key chain in a house you have built in your imagination.

Cheers!

 

[sarang]

Today it is respectable to talk about SQ (spiritual quotient) and EQ (emotional quotient); traditional IQ has been largely sidelined for a variety of reasons.

Dear Shri Nara,

The point is humans look for order in what seems random. Scientists also believe in order in the physical world. Otherwise science could not have progressed. In the same way, some others look for order at the mental and spiritual level. If looking for order in the physical world is sensible which is indeed the case why not look for order at the mental and spiritual level. Why restrict to the physical plane if you can make satisfactory explanations to explain things like, why certain events happen to certain people which on surface is inexplicable?

 

[sravna]

If, let me emphasize the if, there is an explanation for why certain things happen to people, it has to come from careful theorizing, experimentation, observation, analysis, synthesis, and independent verification, aka scientific process. Trying to find answers in the spiritual level is like looking for the lost key chain in a house you have built in your imagination.

Cheers!

See Shri. Nara experimentation, observation etc. are all that, which will work only as proofs in science. I am asking you o look beyond that world of science and enhance your means of acquiring knowledge or at least acknowledge what has been acquired in other ways. You cannot be adamant and arrogant enough to say that knowledge acquired by science is the only real knowledge and the rest are only delusions.

 

[Nara]

..... You cannot be adamant and arrogant enough to say that knowledge acquired by science is the only real knowledge and the rest are only delusions.

sravna, what I am saying may seem arrogant to you, which is fine, but to look for knowledge by imagining a spiritual level is a fool's errand (to make it clear, I am not saying those who look for such are fools, fool's errand means a completely absurd, pointless, or useless errand, thats all).

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

sravna, what I am saying may seem arrogant to you, which is fine, but to look for knowledge by imagining a spiritual level is a fool's errand (to make it clear, I am not saying those who look for such are fools, fool's errand means a completely absurd, pointless, or useless errand, thats all).

Cheers!

Dear Shri Nara,

Everything starts with imagination. The important point is whether such imagination solves practical problems and really helps in making lives better, Whether it gives cogent explanations for perplexing problems and whether such explanations are offered by people who themselves have led exemplary and inspiring lives. The real order is seen only by the mind. Just because there is no physical observation involved for validation , you cannot reject the knowledge itself as mere fantasy. It is the mind itself that has to validate it. Why do you want to rely on pseudo senses? Mind is the ultimate sense for the perception of truth.

 

[Nara]

...Everything starts with imagination.

sravna, spirituality starts with imagination, dwells in imagination, ends in imaginations, and solves no problems, only creates problems. This Invisible Pink Unicorn has nothing to do with reality, nothing to do with problem solving, no use to nobody nowhere nohow. Knowledge about this IPU is no knowledge.

Cheers!