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Why I Am Not A Hindu ?- Book Review

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palindrome and sapr333, i enjoyed your conversation...:couch2:


but an inner sense urges me to feel the strong sense of karma phalas... inexplicable, but yet...
..

thanks,


I have a basic question about Karma..(Lets keep aside for a while about our faith and belief)..

If Karma is all about carrying past our good/bad deeds (guna), then let me apply the logic of 'First Cause".. What Karmic effect the first soul had?

ie, the first soul must have been a good true soul (cos there was no bad past before, for that soul), possibly,it would be a full reflection of Brahma, as pure soul!! If so, then there is no chance for that good sould to acquite bad karma from day one, as its already been a pure soul and its already a Brahman..

Im seriously been looking out an answer to this?
 
Palindrome/Seshadri, Correct me if Im wrong..

So far from the discussion, I could sense (not conclude) these...

1) The followers of Hinduism are more in to 'Faith-Feel & Experience' kinda', than to rely upon reasoning/logic/philososphy. After Adi Sankara, there is no 'iconic' person, who has attempted to work on Hindu philosophy.We need more scholars on this, to advance dialogue/debate with the west.I think it should be possible, when someone claimed, all the western philosophy was once copied from East.. But I doubt, if so, we could easily have a dialogue with western philosophy. Unfortunately, both seems to be poles apart at this moment.

2) Hinduism is too vast, with various schools of thoughts (including Charvaka),unfortunately, its difficult to stick to one school of thought, and engage in a dialogue.And each school has its own gaps, which could be only patched by another school of hinduism. There is definitely a confusion here. And thats one reason, the followers of Hinduism couldnt come unified/concrete to proclaim against casteism and its discrimination. (Touching a bit of Kancha Ilaiah here).. Yes, the definition of way of life, fits well though..

3) There is a sheer lack of knowledge about hindu scriptures amogst its own followers. This could be a slimy statement, but then, there are reasons in to it. My very objective of joining this site, is in line with my regard/intellectual respect I had for Iyers (though not wealthy biz class Iyengars..No hard feelings pls). Unfortunately, Im quite disappointed by the responses we get here.. Yeh! Thanks to Palindrome, he attempted pretty well.

4) Majority of them confines Hinduism to India, and dont wish to look beyond.. If one has found goodness in a particular faith/ideology, he should share that goodness with others right!! Yes, Iskon is a few exception..What Im talking about it the general perspective. God is for the whole Universe, not alone India.

5) Very few people tend to frankly accept the mistakes of past discrimination..I have observed this from various other threads here. One tends to deny it outright the existence of caste, or blame it on British as usual, or blame it other castes, reservation etc etc.. Rarely, someone talks of finding a solution to this, from his heart!! The 'White Guilt' is missing, and sadest part is lot of lower varna still wish to be a 'House Nigger' too.. Its fact of life. Rarely, someone talks of finding a solution to this, from his heart!!
 
discrimnation means vivekam - and it's good.

nothing bad to be guilty about.

we lived a live and let live. white and black comparision here is too much wayward.

Whites went to Africa and slaved the natives of that land using fire power. this is barbarism of worst kind. there is no love to a fellow human -

how can you compare this with " theetu" as a practice of hygiene and following the codes ? all our practices have LOVE as the intention AND supported by highest intelligence.

If one caste mingle freely with other then that castes duty will suffer as we are witnessing in the last 60 years. every jaati should stick to their duties - this is management - division of labour . if not unhealthy competition will result and utter chaos will prevail as we all witnessing now.

On enlightment and all you are expecting too much online - i would say.

somehow - i feel you have some close mind - you want your way - i mean you tend to conclude rather than enquire and know - there is no vinaya in queries.

QED : - Only who eats salt need to drink water.
 
sapr333,

There is a structured and logical enquiry into all aspects of Life/Existence/Godhood, and there are many exponents too... probably, we never hear of them as they do not tend to advertise themselves... It is not mandatory that a person desirous of attaining moksha be given to teaching; for the path is well laid, and it is up to us to study, understand and realize it.

The essence of the hindu scriptures are brought down to simple and practical steps by various stories/fables, and by various poets/gurus stressing the simpleness of things - truth/ahimsa/piety etc... Even though, one does not know the literal of the vedas/upanishads, such qualities would eventually lead him to a stage where his spiritual quest would be triggered and he is in the right frame of mind to realize his path.

That is why, it is said that the sanathana dharma is a way of life... schools of thought are to be understood once the mind is in the appropriate stage... a bantamweight (bw) category boxer cannot hope to take the ring against a heavyweight (hw) champion... for the odds favour the hw; the bw boxer may still win, but the probability is less... on the other hand, if he is a hw, he is more qualified to take on the other hw... similarly, attempting to score an understanding can perhaps be done for academic purposes or for authoring comparisons etc.. but to truly realize it in its original self, it is to be experienced...

And thus, it may appear to someone that hindus' "sense" or "feel"... as if we are intellectually blindfolded; but that is not the case, we are knowingly elevating ourselves for a much higher purpose - moksha...

Now the above is all related to one aspect - liberation of the mind from afflictions... there are certain social aspects related to such practices and this may be different with different groups... some may see this as discrimination, while others may see this as merely a karmic effect...

There could be another example - Just as education defines the role of a person in society, karma defines the role of an athma in the varna...

I shall reply to your post about karma separately...

So, in a sense, the discrimination is to be and not to be... to be in the social aspects, and not to be in the spiritual aspect...
 
I have a basic question about Karma..(Lets keep aside for a while about our faith and belief)..

If Karma is all about carrying past our good/bad deeds (guna), then let me apply the logic of 'First Cause".. What Karmic effect the first soul had?

ie, the first soul must have been a good true soul (cos there was no bad past before, for that soul), possibly,it would be a full reflection of Brahma, as pure soul!! If so, then there is no chance for that good sould to acquite bad karma from day one, as its already been a pure soul and its already a Brahman..

Im seriously been looking out an answer to this?
It is the karmic effect of the everpresent athma, that there is creation...

Thought itself is a creation for Brahman... that is why advaitham tends to identify the concept of dream state to indicate the nature of maya...

Yes, initial souls must have been pure... karma does not mean good or bad - read it in this sense "every action has an equal and opposite reaction"... if somebody loves a person deeply and is unable to spend the life with his/her beloved, the sub-conscious mind never remains stable - it is in a continuous state of want... and this may relate to the nature of the individual in its next birth...

There are certain other variables here, in the mechanics of karma - what portion of karma is spread in a particular life? who decides that? can it be altered? does it have a priority or are they mixed in equal proportions?

There may be no one convincing answer to this; it is all deva-rahasyam, but then, why do we need such information when there is a way to mitigate all karmic effects!!!

Become a karma-yogi...
 
sesh!

as bala puts it , there is no such thing called initial soul or first soul.

"EZHU KADAL MANALAI ALLAVIDIN ADHIGAM
ENTAHU IDAR PIRAVI AVATHARAM"

- guru namashivayam.

meaning if one count the grains of each sand of beach (in three past, present and future tense) - still my jenmas exceed the count

mind boggling isn't it. We carry our ignorance since time immemorial.

so , for us this first or initial means nothing. timeless , immemorial .. kal thonri mann thonra kallathillirunth .. .are the norms.

regards
 
My response in coloured txt

discrimnation means vivekam - and it's good.
nothing bad to be guilty about.


Dont you think thats a jungle law!.. The higher the physical/Social power, eat up the lower one.


>>>we lived a live and let live.>>

You are just letting him live, at your perceived mercy.. Instead, the higher moral standard would be, "Reach out to help him and come up in life on par with you.


>> white and black comparision here is too much wayward.
Whites went to Africa and slaved the natives of that land using fire power. this is barbarism of worst kind. there is no love to a fellow human ->>

You are right! The whites who tortured/discriminated never had a love for fellow human being.

>>>how can you compare this with " theetu" as a practice of hygiene and following the codes ? all our practices have LOVE as the intention AND supported by highest intelligence. >>

As I said earlier, we need to work on this with our conscience. No law can control debaunchery... This also cannot be argued to the core prove it right/wrong..

>>>>If one caste mingle freely with other then that castes duty will suffer as we are witnessing in the last 60 years. every jaati should stick to their duties - this is management - division of labour . if not unhealthy competition will result and utter chaos will prevail as we all witnessing now.>>>

I stay away from responding to it.. Palindrome has a convincing answer to every one..
 
sapr333!

what eating? hey you eat what you want to eat - i eat what i like to eat.

Let's not each other enforce any ideal life-style to each other. as we all know one man's poison is another man's food.

hey ! you jolly well see , even among brahmins - how they mis-precieve the sati vrat and made a hue and cry.

any disciplined life cannot be enforced, it can be hinted only - it's upto individual to catch it.

Moreover , the demands of one's duty may perfectly allow oneself to drink liquor and be merry - how can one deny that? it will relieve his physical pain.

nobody lives in a high pedastal - like you think all are acting their role - that's all.

Birth is considered as prasada by Lord and whatever is the role given, it is cheerfully played - this is what dharma is all about.

Periyapuranam is replete with stories of how the devotees stick to their duties and reached HIS lotus feet.

It is not Jungle order - what's happening now is the jungle order.

Well Pali - didn't offer any answer - she just assumed things on her own and began to blah blah... she never even once attempted to answer objectively. She brings a lot of subjectivity and muddled the issue at the best.


Birth is preceded by the souls Vasana and each birth has its own beauty and worth.
 
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sapr333!

nobody lives in a high pedastal - like you think all are acting their role - that's all.Birth is considered as prasada by Lord and whatever is the role given, it is cheerfully played - this is what dharma is all about.

It is not Jungle order - what's happening now is the jungle order.
.

If our life is all pre-set, then we dont need to do good to others. Rather we lack the purpose in life..There is no moral objectivity in helping others, as we are all a role-players in drama. I can go around and rape children in my dark room, so that even society may not even aware of it.. Am I accountable for that debaunchery, or just should say, that Im just playing a role as destined in my life.. Pls ponder!!!

Thats what ur trying to say. Its more or less like a jungle law, cos a tiger has no bad feeling about mauling a human, for no reason of his fault.. Terrorist bombing in Taj Hotel can also be considered as a role play, but im sure you a may not agree this analogy..

Btw, dont drag dharma in to it.. Sanatana Dharma definitel dont talk about role play!! It has some finer crispy 4 lines, which I do agree with it, to some extent.. Pls get to know well about Veda's and Dharmas before you speak here..
 
I
Yes, initial souls must have been pure... karma does not mean good or bad - read it in this sense "every action has an equal and opposite reaction"...

Become a karma-yogi...

Seshadri, you share an interesting point.. Matter of fact, this is the first time Im coming across this interesting view..

Let me buy your point.. Initially it could have been PURE...( I have to disgree with one of the points of Malgova, in which he claims infinity, for which I need to respond with mathematics,,,Yet to respond him)..

Yes, I can buy you your point even "there is no Good or bad, its all reciprocation'' .. Its indeed an interesting point to ponder.

Having said that...If its all about reciprocating all actions... if I murder, you will get murdered...If I love some one, you will be loved....Reciprocation continues, cos there is not objective end to it, cos you denied the concept of Absolute Good and Bad.. That logically concludes, in line with malgova's thought, that, first soul was infinite, and so it the case with 'Last soul-One ness with God'.. That seems to be infinite, cos we will only be reciprocating, and may not find an end...

PS: I wish we could stick to this point...cos it seems to be interesting and pondering.
 
sapr333!
Moreover , the demands of one's duty may perfectly allow oneself to drink liquor and be merry - how can one deny that? it will relieve his physical pain.

nobody lives in a high pedastal - like you think all are acting their role - that's all.

So according to you, Hitler also played his role, and he is right, and you have no rights to condemn him!!..

I can go on and rape any women whoom I come across, or drink as much I could and ponder around and pound on all whoom im coming across on bed, and justify that Im also relieving my sexual desire.. Right!!..

In this context, rather than a jungle law, I feel, there should/could be an universal moral law..Possibly, given by God, if not, atleast by great sages like Adi Shankar or Thiruvalluvar..

Do you agree with me, on this point of Universal Moral law? which could be applicable to you and me, as a moral guidance to our life.
 
Sap!

If our life is all pre-set, then we dont need to do good to others.

what you mean? we didn't see any wrong or lowness in the life-style of a native tribal or a fishermen or tree-climber or keeper of cows or goldsmith or a ironsmith - so we didn't meddle with their life-style. that's how you got the diversity in India left untouched. Infact we learned from them many things about living as a community.

there is nothing low or nothing high - for us to meddle and convert anybody.

you think - we should have meddled and that's what good you meant - am i correct in infering that.


Rather we lack the purpose in life..There is no moral objectivity in helping others, as we are all a role-players in drama.

role-playing itself will bring the necessary harmony to live with nature as you role is defined you do your part as "duty" NOT as a chore or work - the absence of it is the chaos you see now.


I can go around and rape children in my dark room, so that even society may not even aware of it.. Am I accountable for that debaunchery, or just should say, that Im just playing a role as destined in my life.. Pls ponder!!!

omg - did GOD assign any role like that? B4 you write you must ponder too. ....

Thats what ur trying to say. Its more or less like a jungle law, cos a tiger has no bad feeling about mauling a human, for no reason of his fault.. Terrorist bombing in Taj Hotel can also be considered as a role play, but im sure you a may not agree this analogy..

omg again--- you should consult a pshychiatrist

Btw, dont drag dharma in to it.. Sanatana Dharma definitel dont talk about role play!! It has some finer crispy 4 lines, which I do agree with it, to some extent..

sanatana dharma is all about role-play.

Pls get to know well about Veda's and Dharmas before you speak here..

i just wrote something that came to my small mind. anyway will heed to your advise.

/QUOTE]
 
So according to you, Hitler also played his role, and he is right, and you have no rights to condemn him!!..

I can go on and rape any women whoom I come across, or drink as much I could and ponder around and pound on all whoom im coming across on bed, and justify that Im also relieving my sexual desire.. Right!!..

In this context, rather than a jungle law, I feel, there should/could be an universal moral law..Possibly, given by God, if not, atleast by great sages like Adi Shankar or Thiruvalluvar..

Do you agree with me, on this point of Universal Moral law? which could be applicable to you and me, as a moral guidance to our life.


this is what is called so so logic ... meaning there must be some assumed logic b4 so u derive one conclusion. OMG.

Hitler killed his own subjects - which is against the oath he took to protect. did he played his role? OMG

You can marry a lady and can relieve your sexula urge - why you want to invent a new way ? - please talk something with sense

please seek medical help.
 
malgova.mango and sapr333,

pls reflect on these;

"role-palying" as used by mango is to be looked at as a means to detachment... when you become passive to the actions and reactions, you do not tend to get emotionally attached with whatever we do as our duty/actions ie., karma...

so role-play here should be inferred as a means to detach oneself from one's actions... note carefully, it is not similar to doing an action and refuting the ownership...detachment is doing an action without desire for the results it may yield...

when there is no such desire, there is no impetus of thought, the mind gradually becomes free from all thoughts and is freed of karmic debts... and that is moksha...

a person going on a killing/raping spree are all actions which are born out of strong desires... good or bad is another thing, but a person who is a karma yogi would do his duty as desired... now the question comes as to what should be his duty... for argument's sake, somebody could choose killing as their duty or molesting itself as a duty (as it is an action)... here we have to introduce the concept of dharma - as those actions which sustains the well being of all beings - as the primary criteria for evaluating actions...

sapr333, you evaluate all actions - that of hitler, a killer or a molester with the underlying concept of dharma (with the definition given above) and opine...
 
sesh!

it is not like that... BG talks about Prasaddha Buddhi.

See this world is given, our surroundings are given , in the same view our Birth is given , all this are given by whom ?, by the highest intelligence - so the birth is to be seen an Ishvara Parsadha and along with the line of our birth we should qualify ourself and do our duty.

So if one is born as fisherman then he has to do his duty, in the same vein apply for the other births...

thoughts need not to be stopped , nor do expectations while doing a duty. your idea of moksha is your idea and it has nothing to do with teaching.

regards
 
Malgova, Im referring to your response on Post # 312.

You talked about diversity in India.. yes, I agree with you its diverse, but its all about Geographical boundaries.. We had better diversity, when India was one with pakistan,bangaldesh, Nepal, Kashmir etc.. Or in times of British, they were individual kingdoms, like Madras, Mysore,Maratas,Travancore,Kandahar, Bengal etc..and each one has their own identity, and they never identified themselves as diverse, and they were carrying their own identity.. and India as such a term was unknown.. Diversity is something, which we were talking about now..anyways, diversity is irrelevant here.. Even in England, people are pretty much diverse cultured, like sikh cabwalla, white, brit, scot,irish,spanish etc etc..

Coming to 'Role Play', you havent answered me, except exclaming 'OMG".. . just answer me... what if wrong with the role play of a Taj Hotel Terrorist or Naturam Godse or Hitler!! They are all in the role play right!! As you said earlier, you are OK with a drunkard as its his role play, but when it comes to a terrorist, you cannot accept it, and could only exclaim OMG...rather, you said, God didnt assign such a role play... If so whats Good/bad according to your Gods role play.... According to you god accepts a drunkard and wife beater, but not a terrorist...What makes you to condemn them, and on what basis... Answer to my point please..

And in the middle, you suggested me to consult a Psychiatrist... Fine.. but let me know, on what basis you feel Im insane?
 
malgova.mango and sapr333,

pls reflect on these;

"role-palying" as used by mango is to be looked at as a means to detachment... when you become passive to the actions and reactions, you do not tend to get emotionally attached with whatever we do as our duty/actions ie., karma...

so role-play here should be inferred as a means to detach oneself from one's actions... note carefully, it is not similar to doing an action and refuting the ownership...detachment is doing an action without desire for the results it may yield...

when there is no such desire, there is no impetus of thought, the mind gradually becomes free from all thoughts and is freed of karmic debts... and that is moksha...

a person going on a killing/raping spree are all actions which are born out of strong desires... good or bad is another thing, but a person who is a karma yogi would do his duty as desired... now the question comes as to what should be his duty... for argument's sake, somebody could choose killing as their duty or molesting itself as a duty (as it is an action)... here we have to introduce the concept of dharma - as those actions which sustains the well being of all beings - as the primary criteria for evaluating actions...

sapr333, you evaluate all actions - that of hitler, a killer or a molester with the underlying concept of dharma (with the definition given above) and opine...


Seshadri, it seems you have an interesting point to share with...But frankly I couldnt comprehend it.. Can you come little elaborate on this.. Thanks in advance.. And I would wait for your response..
 
Palindrome/Seshadri, Correct me if Im wrong..

So far from the discussion, I could sense (not conclude) these...

1) The followers of Hinduism are more in to 'Faith-Feel & Experience' kinda', than to rely upon reasoning/logic/philososphy. After Adi Sankara, there is no 'iconic' person, who has attempted to work on Hindu philosophy.We need more scholars on this, to advance dialogue/debate with the west.I think it should be possible, when someone claimed, all the western philosophy was once copied from East.. But I doubt, if so, we could easily have a dialogue with western philosophy. Unfortunately, both seems to be poles apart at this moment.

2) Hinduism is too vast, with various schools of thoughts (including Charvaka),unfortunately, its difficult to stick to one school of thought, and engage in a dialogue.And each school has its own gaps, which could be only patched by another school of hinduism. There is definitely a confusion here. And thats one reason, the followers of Hinduism couldnt come unified/concrete to proclaim against casteism and its discrimination. (Touching a bit of Kancha Ilaiah here).. Yes, the definition of way of life, fits well though..

3) There is a sheer lack of knowledge about hindu scriptures amogst its own followers. This could be a slimy statement, but then, there are reasons in to it. My very objective of joining this site, is in line with my regard/intellectual respect I had for Iyers (though not wealthy biz class Iyengars..No hard feelings pls). Unfortunately, Im quite disappointed by the responses we get here.. Yeh! Thanks to Palindrome, he attempted pretty well.

4) Majority of them confines Hinduism to India, and dont wish to look beyond.. If one has found goodness in a particular faith/ideology, he should share that goodness with others right!! Yes, Iskon is a few exception..What Im talking about it the general perspective. God is for the whole Universe, not alone India.

5) Very few people tend to frankly accept the mistakes of past discrimination..I have observed this from various other threads here. One tends to deny it outright the existence of caste, or blame it on British as usual, or blame it other castes, reservation etc etc.. Rarely, someone talks of finding a solution to this, from his heart!! The 'White Guilt' is missing, and sadest part is lot of lower varna still wish to be a 'House Nigger' too.. Its fact of life. Rarely, someone talks of finding a solution to this, from his heart!!

You can not find a solution to the caste problem in an internet forum. You use terms like "White Guilt" and "House Nigger" which has absolutely no relevance here. You want to apply the terms coined in a different situation here.

No one is interested in a solution. Politicians need the caste system for getting elected. The so called social activists need a cause. You create imaginary enemies so that you can keep up the pretense of a fight.

But unfortunately no one bothers about historical facts.

1. Unlike the Japanese caste system, in the Hindu caste system the Brahmin is not the ruler. You talk about getting 3 seats and Brahmins not getting any. If the Brahmins wanted to rule India they would not have created a system under which the Kshatriyas were the ruling class. In the hundreds of Rajahs, maharajahs and rulers of India at the time of independence there is not even a single Brahmin.

In the last 3000 years of Indian history, Brahmins have ruled hardly for a century or so. Only one dynasty, the Kanvas were Brahmins. And did the Kashtriyas rule India? The fact is that most of the rulers of India were from the so called Shudra caste.

It is only under Democracy that Brahmins have played a major role. That again is due to their role in the independence movement. The British administration helped the anti-Brahmin sentiment, for it believed that the Brahmins were trouble makers. You better go and see the list of people who were imprisoned in the circular jail in the Andamans.

Why did the British encourage the Justice party? Because it supported the British and was against independence. Remember In Tamil Nadu the independence day was observed as a Dhukka dhinam by wearing black badges.

As far as the Brahmins are concerned you or anyone could rule India for ever. Except for some self seeking politicians the Brahmins are not interested in ruling India. IT IS ALL YOURS.

But Brahmin-Baiting can not win elections any more.

2. The Rulers are only interested in ruling. This applies to Kings as well as democratically elected representatives. Rulers are not interested in bringing about social changes.

Chandra Gupta Mourya one of our greatest Kings and the founder of the Mourya dynasty was a Shudra by caste. What did he do to remove the inequities of the caste system? Nothing.

In Tamil Nadu every caste except the Dalits and the Brahmins have ruled for some time or the other. I am not imagining this. This is what the communities claim. Gujjars who are the descendants of the Gujjar rulers today want a scheduled tribe staus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujjar

You will not find the voice of the liberal Brahmin on the net. Because the internet forums are dominated by emotionally surcharged people who fight against real/imaginary enemies.

You can go through the thread "Hinduism's conquest of the West" to find out about the spread of Hindu ideas in the West.

You want to know about the caste system. Read the history of India. Political and Religious. Not the scriptures.

BTW if you want a Dalit to be appointed as the priest of Thirupathi temple Kancha could approach the Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh. Why did not the C.M appoint a Dalit as a priest? Why did the Tamil Nadu government straight away appoint Dalits as priests in all the temples? If only the Brahmins were opposed to it why bother about an insignificant community. Has the C.M of U.P appointed Dalits as priests in all the U.P temples?

If a Dalit become the Prime Minister of India will they pull down all the dividing walls in villages? Will it immediately end the two tumbler system? My friend talks about Theetu because he really does not understand the prevailing system. It is inhuman to say the least. But no Brahmin is involved in this or the river of blood in the Thamraparani.

Instead of fighting the real enemies, you choose to fight the Brahmins because they are easy game and do not have the numbers.
 
Seshadri, I couldnt comprehend your previous detailed post, I got confused with the subsequesnt post of Malgoa.mango...

Pretty much confused rather... I would really seek a long detailed response, focussed on this subject...ie, ROLE PLAY ...
 
You can not find a solution to the caste problem in an internet forum. You use terms like "White Guilt" and "House Nigger" which has absolutely no relevance here. You want to apply the terms coined in a different situation here.

No one is interested in a solution. Politicians need the caste system for getting elected. The so called social activists need a cause. You create imaginary enemies so that you can keep up the pretense of a fight.

But unfortunately no one bothers about historical facts.

1. Unlike the Japanese caste system, in the Hindu caste system the Brahmin is not the ruler. You talk about getting 3 seats and Brahmins not getting any. If the Brahmins wanted to rule India they would not have created a system under which the Kshatriyas were the ruling class. In the hundreds of Rajahs, maharajahs and rulers of India at the time of independence there is not even a single Brahmin.

In the last 3000 years of Indian history, Brahmins have ruled hardly for a century or so. Only one dynasty, the Kanvas were Brahmins. And did the Kashtriyas rule India? The fact is that most of the rulers of India were from the so called Shudra caste.

It is only under Democracy that Brahmins have played a major role. That again is due to their role in the independence movement. The British administration helped the anti-Brahmin sentiment, for it believed that the Brahmins were trouble makers. You better go and see the list of people who were imprisoned in the circular jail in the Andamans.

Why did the British encourage the Justice party? Because it supported the British and was against independence. Remember In Tamil Nadu the independence day was observed as a Dhukka dhinam by wearing black badges.

As far as the Brahmins are concerned you or anyone could rule India for ever. Except for some self seeking politicians the Brahmins are not interested in ruling India. IT IS ALL YOURS.

But Brahmin-Baiting can not win elections any more.

2. The Rulers are only interested in ruling. This applies to Kings as well as democratically elected representatives. Rulers are not interested in bringing about social changes.

Chandra Gupta Mourya one of our greatest Kings and the founder of the Mourya dynasty was a Shudra by caste. What did he do to remove the inequities of the caste system? Nothing.

In Tamil Nadu every caste except the Dalits and the Brahmins have ruled for some time or the other. I am not imagining this. This is what the communities claim. Gujjars who are the descendants of the Gujjar rulers today want a scheduled tribe staus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujjar

You will not find the voice of the liberal Brahmin on the net. Because the internet forums are dominated by emotionally surcharged people who fight against real/imaginary enemies.

You can go through the thread "Hinduism's conquest of the West" to find out about the spread of Hindu ideas in the West.

You want to know about the caste system. Read the history of India. Political and Religious. Not the scriptures.

BTW if you want a Dalit to be appointed as the priest of Thirupathi temple Kancha could approach the Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh. Why did not the C.M appoint a Dalit as a priest? Why did the Tamil Nadu government straight away appoint Dalits as priests in all the temples? If only the Brahmins were opposed to it why bother about an insignificant community. Has the C.M of U.P appointed Dalits as priests in all the U.P temples?

If a Dalit become the Prime Minister of India will they pull down all the dividing walls in villages? Will it immediately end the two tumbler system? My friend talks about Theetu because he really does not understand the prevailing system. It is inhuman to say the least. But no Brahmin is involved in this or the river of blood in the Thamraparani.

Instead of fighting the real enemies, you choose to fight the Brahmins because they are easy game and do not have the numbers.

Listen!! At the outset I can say, I'm not here to blame Brahmins, for all the casteism what we see now!! I expressed the same, in many of my few posts.. All Im saying is, Brahmins are the best persons, who can work for eradication of caste/discrmination..Being on top of social construct, Brahmins have the power for this too.. Will respond in detail soon.
 
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Apologize, I tried a font size..It got blotted out... I never know this...Im sorry for making it feel like a spam.
 
sapr333, why should we eradicate the caste system? what is the purpose behind it?

it is to end discrimination based on caste... if yes, then what are the possible alternatives:

=> to eradicate the notion that caste hierarchy is supremacy

=> to eradicate the system itself, that creates such a hierarchy...

i dont think that anybody who talks about equality has ever thought about point 1 above... and it is not their fault too, coz there are numerous factors which impress upon the mind, that the system, inherently, is a flawed one...

leaving the blame game apart, let us see what can be achieved under point 2 => there are no jathis which also means no jathi based functions, cultures, traditions etc... we are indirectly trying to suppress what has naturally evolved over thousands of years...

i will give an example - in my native village, there is a temple of a goddess... which is worshipped by both brahmins and non-brahmins... the priest has traditionally been a non-brahmin, but special pujas are also done by brahmins, on specific occasions... now, the nb priest does not democratically elect his succeeding nb priest; the first alternative considered is his son, failing which other priests are scouted for...

jathi by birth gives first hand experience that no other mode of teaching can provide...

if a person who is termed as "dalit" (i wonder the time of its origin!!!) should be a priest, let him exhibit the characteristics of a devotee (or rather the characteristics of a priestly life)... but then a spiritual minded person, would not bother about whether he is acknowledged or not... it is only the frivolous mind that seeks the attention of others...

varna is different from jathi, varna is universal while jathi is specific - it relates to social grouping for performing set functions of the society...
 
Seshadri, I couldnt comprehend your previous detailed post, I got confused with the subsequesnt post of Malgoa.mango...

Pretty much confused rather... I would really seek a long detailed response, focussed on this subject...ie, ROLE PLAY ...
mango says that occupation (duty) based on jathi is devolved on an athma by its previous karma or by the action of god... so, one should not grudge or exxpress dissatisfaction about his identity in society, rather, he should accept it as the gift of god and go about his duty...

in short, it speaks about contentment, and attributing everything to god... in this way he thinks himself as an actor playing out his part in a drama authored by god...
 
Brahmins are not at the top of the social construct. You invite a priest to perform certain ceremonies in your house. You give him respect and then give Dakshina.

But that does not make him your social equal. You would not take him with you to your club. Nor will you give your son/daughter in a marriage to his children.

Even the claim of being the highest of the castes has been disputed. We had a lengthy discussion in Wikipedia long time back about this.

Even in Mahabharata the Brahmins were considered socially inferior. Please read Drowpadi Swayamvaram episode.

Only in religious matters the Brahmins were considered better. But even that has been challenged by a number of communities in the last 150 years.
 
Guys..Relax! Relax! Relax!! For the arugment sake, let me buy all your points the last 10 post.. claiming..

1)Brahmins were just Priests, living on Picksha, Preaching hinduism and doing rituals.
2) Nachi said, a rich man wont get married his son to a daughter of poor brahmin priest
3) Mango, talked about all our duties, as claimed by varna.
4) Brahmins were never Kshatriyas(kings) to command, and were destined for priesthood
5) Nachi said, Brahmins of Mahabaratha were inferior and cited drowpadi Swayamwarm.
6) Sesh, said, once should not feel inferior about his occupation. Priest hood is not just great. Lets respect our destined duties as destined by God's role play..
Points taken!!. Lets drive the point, and stick to the duties, as destined by Varna.

Now here is the question.. In 1930's (none of us were born at that time), madras presidency had 95% Brahmins in govt jobs (not priestly jobs)..Possilby a Kshatriya(Thaisildar, Distict Magistrate/mini king)/Bhanya(Bramin british clerk) jobs. The society, soon after democracy, wish to bring back the 'Duties destined by Dharma" in accordance with their hindu religious doctrine(as claimed by you all,in recent post)... ie, all Brahmins should go back to 'Priesthood', in true spirits to maintain 'Dharma & Duties.. And inorder to correct the social imbalance,rather, to bring the hindu society back in line with varna, enacts , 'Reservation'''' .. Do you find any problem with this?
 
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