Why I Am Not A Hindu ?- Book Review

[palindrome]

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you seem to be hanging onto a three legged rabbit here...

the brahmin lived in moderation and not in poverty... if he wanted to, he could have used his intellect to gain riches and rule... but he abstained from luxuries, but not basic needs for survival and existence... and then again, there are occupations which are allowable for a brahmin, as an adviser, teaching, even commerce if the situation warrants it... all these would not have been allowed, if the brahmin were to live in poverty...

"VARUMAI IS DIFFERENT FROM ELIMAI"

did you get the point?

in those days sure a brahmin was given dakshinas in terms of land and other things. so that was his earnings. but did all brahmins have good earnings? was his role designed for earnings other than that of daanams?

that they played other roles from solely that of brahmacharyam and preisthood is known, examples are that of those that trained others during mahabharat times is also known, yes they took to other professions agreed, but it is doubtful if they were vedic brahmins...

it is in the puranas that one comes across examples of a brahmin taking to other professions like trade. but again there is a conflict b/w what was allowed or not.

please do not ask ppl if they got the point or not b4 a discussion is complete, other too can ask you if you got the point or not in the middle of a discussion.

please leave examples like uniforms and 3-legged rabbits aside and please let me know of scriptures that allow for a brahmin to seek wealth.

to others, please do not see the person posing the questions as a villan. hope you will take it as an opportunity to offer explanations to often debated misunderstandings.

 

[sapr333]

one can't own others land in the name of right of wealth. if others, gave the land you can jolly well own it.

right to seek wealth is different. that one didn't own anything is entirely different issue.

common... i can seek wealth, but i can't claim over another's land as mine.
i can't complain that the other guy denies my fundamental right to seek wealth by refusing to accede to my claim.

Quoting few lines from modern history.

1)Travancore queen Gauri, in 1817 enacted a law, which permits educational rights to untouchable.Its the first princely state in India to enact such law, which proves untouchables were denied eduational rights. That could be one of the reasons for Keralas numero uno position in literacy.

2) Hope you heard of Poona Pact, and subsequent bills to give voting rights to Dalits & All women.. At some point of time, even women were discriminated or denied with their fundamental rights (lets even keep aside caste here).

3) Untouchablity - Do we need any better proof than Buddha, to prove it!! We are talking about 350C and only in 1955 , untouchability was “abolished” in the constitution of independent India (articles 15 and 17). If I were to do a blame glame, lets all join and blame the British also for not abolishing it.

4) As a trail of untouchablity,no-one sold lands to the untouchables. Princely state of Punjab even had a law denying the right of untouchbale to buy lands.

Lets realise this point,that, there are many kind of fundamental rights were violated for millenia.be to an untouchable or to Women.

Im not here to point fingers at any one or do a blame-game..But crux of the matter is that, at some point of history, women and untouchables have been denied their fundamental rights. All of us has to 'carry that guilt' and work for correcting the social imbalance, caused due to this mistakes of past.

If we develop this notion within ourselves, we would'nt debating on this. Rather, we would be working for uplifting them and bringing them to level playing platforms.

 

[palindrome]

Im not here to point fingers at any one or do a blame-game..But crux of the matter is that, at some point of history, women and untouchables have been denied their fundamental rights. All of us has to 'carry that guilt' and work for correcting the social imbalance, caused due to this mistakes of past.

all societies evolve with time...there is no need for anyone to carry any form of guilt..it is nobody's fault the ones who lived in the past did what they did...there are even examples of men having a roving eye for women amongst my elders..why shd i carry any guilt for what they did...i did not wrong so far and am not inclined to carry any form of guilt. thanks.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

that they played other roles from solely that of brahmacharyam and preisthood is known, examples are that of those that trained others during mahabharat times is also known, yes they took to other professions agreed, but it is doubtful if they were vedic brahmins...

it is in the puranas that one comes across examples of a brahmin taking to other professions like trade. but again there is a conflict b/w what was allowed or not.

please do not ask ppl if they got the point or not b4 a discussion is complete, other too can ask you if you got the point or not in the middle of a discussion.

please leave examples like uniforms and 3-legged rabbits aside and please let me know of scriptures that allow for a brahmin to seek wealth.

to others, please do not see the person posing the questions as a villan. hope you will take it as an opportunity to offer explanations to often debated misunderstandings.

it is a discussion and i ask to clarify... seems that it has rubbed you the wrong way...

if you want to ask me about "points", it is your wish... why would i speculate about your ability to do so...:bored:

i am free to give my own examples to stress my point; it is up to you to consider it or not... do not advice me on this...

"seek wealth"?? - i have said that they are not meant to live in poverty! is it difficult to understand that? you are repeatedly implying that a brahmin should not be material even for securing his family welfare... all brahmins, can very well become sanyasis then...!!!

brahmins are also allowed to secure wealth, provided they do not allow it to conflict with their ritualistic duties...

there is a book called sankshepa dharma shasthram - it is a combination of the various shasthras and it deals with various topics; suggest that you read that to get a clearer picture... hope this clarifies...

but then, on the other hand, you should be prudent enough not to conclude that brahmins "should live in poverty"... without sufficient proof to the same!

in those days sure a brahmin was given dakshinas in terms of land and other things. so that was his earnings. but did all brahmins have good earnings? was his role designed for earnings other than that of daanams?

we cannot arrive at an arithematic mean and neither is it wise to take extremes... all am saying is that brahmins are not meant to live in poverty... for that matter nobody is...!

 

[sapr333]

sapr333,

>>>>you seem to infer that brahmins stopped or prevented others from studying... >>

Please go through all my posts and sense the tone of my writing.. I never exclusively blamed Brahmins. I only said, Brahmins are in a better social/religious/spiritual position to solve this mess created by 'Varna/Jaathi'..I also said casteism has percolated deep down to the last varna. Every one has to be blamed. Even I will blame British, for being a mute spectator to this crime.

>>>i said this in response to yout stmt that brahmins should go to priesthood only (anywaythe thinking that brahmins were just priests alone, is itself a fallacy!)... you cannot interpret it to mean that it is a standalone stmt...>>>

Again,please talk in line with the context/tone of my writing. Its for an argument sake, I threw a Hypothetical situation... Thats when you said, let every body stick to their own kula jobs. And I said, its now all mixed, even dalits are in good jobs, so lets shun jaathi.. To counter it, I also pointed a hypothetical situation, what if all Brahmins go back to Priestly jobs..And still you seems to be on a happy mode, claiming that if the King(state) give food and secutity, why not! That was your thought pattern..


>>> we offered them the same tumbler which we used to drink... and we were very orthodox... we never felt that them touching the tumbler could render it unfit for us to touch it again...!!!>>

Good. A admire that quality in you. Wish every one in India is like you.. There are many a people here, wants 10 tumbler system too.. Some one posted a similar message here.


>>>jathi is a means for our culture now... why should we shed jathi when it has no commercial occupational relevance anyway?

Swastika is one of the ancient symbolism across the globe. It found place even in Greek Mythology and was the most sought out symbol. But after Hilter's genocide, the whole of Germany shunned that swastika logo.. Its not that swastika is bad, but people dont want to get identified with something ,which had a bad past.. Atleast, in this point of view, I would suggest Jaathi should be shunned.. As Bharathiyar said, "Jaadigal Illaiyadi pappa"

s

 

[malgova.mango]

then shunn it, take away all the bc , obc, sc and st reservation from the law book.

please campaign to do that. would you?

 

[malgova.mango]

canvas with you people that they should vote for the parties who abolish all the reservations..
common .....

 

[malgova.mango]

Quoting few lines from modern history.

1)Travancore queen Gauri, in 1817 enacted a law, which permits educational rights to untouchable.Its the first princely state in India to enact such law, which proves untouchables were denied eduational rights. That could be one of the reasons for Keralas numero uno position in literacy.

2) Hope you heard of Poona Pact, and subsequent bills to give voting rights to Dalits & All women.. At some point of time, even women were discriminated or denied with their fundamental rights (lets even keep aside caste here).

3) Untouchablity - Do we need any better proof than Buddha, to prove it!! We are talking about 350C and only in 1955 , untouchability was “abolished” in the constitution of independent India (articles 15 and 17). If I were to do a blame glame, lets all join and blame the British also for not abolishing it.

4) As a trail of untouchablity,no-one sold lands to the untouchables. Princely state of Punjab even had a law denying the right of untouchbale to buy lands.

Lets realise this point,that, there are many kind of fundamental rights were violated for millenia.be to an untouchable or to Women.

Im not here to point fingers at any one or do a blame-game..But crux of the matter is that, at some point of history, women and untouchables have been denied their fundamental rights. All of us has to 'carry that guilt' and work for correcting the social imbalance, caused due to this mistakes of past.

If we develop this notion within ourselves, we would'nt debating on this. Rather, we would be working for uplifting them and bringing them to level playing platforms.

this is a classic example of meandring with the point of discussion.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

sapr333, to respect basic human dignity is obligatory of every individual...

so, we can question if somebody uses a piece of broken plastic or something similar, to offer refreshment... but it is fair if they offer a tumbler... what is the issue here if they offer a different tumbler? if somebody wants to offer a different tumbler because of their preferences of way of life, then what is the basic issue here?

i was given a different tumbler by my iyengar friend - the practice is that they keep a set of vessels for the family and another set for outsiders... i did not feel oppressed!!! the solution lies in accpeting and understanding the others' point of view

Again,please talk in line with the context/tone of my writing. Its for an argument sake, I threw a Hypothetical situation... Thats when you said, let every body stick to their own kula jobs. And I said, its now all mixed, even dalits are in good jobs, so lets shun jaathi.. To counter it, I also pointed a hypothetical situation, what if all Brahmins go back to Priestly jobs..And still you seems to be on a happy mode, claiming that if the King(state) give food and secutity, why not! That was your thought pattern..

you hypothetical example is itself wrong... if brahmins were to go back to their kula jobs, that include mainly teaching (of various shasthras apart from priesthood... we do not discuss or give examples arbitrarily... but it should justify an opinion or a view... what has my contentment got to do with it?

the perception of the earlier ages was that jathi is a best way as a means to identify occupation; society has changed now, and occupation is no more based on jathi, but does that mean that jathi itself is to be shunned?

shunning of jathi and occupation based on jathi are mutually exclusive views...

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

mango is right... first, we should eliminate reservation... let merit and hardwork decide who is eligible for a post or a job... not jathi rhetorics... or minority obsessions...

we need not abolish jathi, but the pervasion of jathi into employment areas...

 

[malgova.mango]

sesh !

they won't shunn anything. oorukku upadesam - kettathillayo...

regards

 

[sapr333]

all societies evolve with time...there is no need for anyone to carry any form of guilt..it is nobody's fault the ones who lived in the past did what they did...there are even examples of men having a roving eye for women amongst my elders..why shd i carry any guilt for what they did...i did not wrong so far and am not inclined to carry any form of guilt. thanks.

Little introspection about 'Collective Karma' will answer your point.

And 'All Male race' will get accountable for this evil meted out on women. And only option to escape that bad karma is,accept the mistakes,repend, do good to women and bring them up, to ward of the bad karma. The term White-Guilt also means the same.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

I think we both are driving the same point..I think you are only creating an imaginary enemy...

My earlier response in-line to this point was to Sheshadri, who refered a situation that every one sticking to their kula job.. My point was, jsut that Brahmins moved to every sphere, so is the case with untouchable, where is the question of JAADHI here.. Lets shun it!! Thats the point I was driving here.

In the old days India lived in villages. The Villages were ruled by something called a Gnati. Gnati is the asociation of persons who belonged to the same caste or a combination of one or two castes who made the rules. They were not bothered about Dharmasathra or Manu. They made their own rules.

The Brahmins and the Dalits who were at the two extrremes of the caste divide were both in a minority. Both were assaigned certain roles in the village society. The Brahmins were the first to break away from this system. They took to new professions and ceased to be submissive. The poor submissive Brahmins broke the mold. The intermediate land owning classes/Castes did not like this. They accused the Brahmins of not knowing their place. The same accusation is being made against Dalits now.

Now the Dalits have broken free. They are also facing the problems from the very same people.

Why do you want only the Brahmins to give up Jathi. Why not ask the Vanniars, Mukkulathors, Arunthathiar and others to give up their Jathi. They form a bigger portion of the population.

Why do you not post in the forum of the castes which make it a regular habit to kill Dalits. Brahmins have never killed any Dalit. At least not in the last fifty years.

 

[malgova.mango]

common ...sapr333 i'm waiting ...

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

The Dalits are facing the biggest problem of their lives. Round two of the reservation game. Dalits are up against their traditional oppressors, the intermediate castes. But unlike the Brahmins, these people have muscle power and the voting power.

The Brahmins are only mute spectators in this power game.

 

[sapr333]

then shunn it, take away all the bc , obc, sc and st reservation from the law book.

please campaign to do that. would you?

I think the time has come to shunn both Jaathi & Reservation. Over 60 years of reservation, failry a good amount of communities have come up very well..

Little of Tribals living in hillock and very few sects of lower caste may not caught up with the mainstream yet. It time to identify them, and extend focussed reservations to them, not to every one, as we see now a days..

Its the right time, we need to shun jaathi, eradicate caste identity, bring confdience in the minds of oppressed , and soon put a full stop to reservations.I'm all for it. For this, we need to do some ground work, in line with Affirmative Action not reservation.

Left like this, this will end up in Reverse-Discrimination!! Thats indeed a danger sign again.

 

[malgova.mango]

dalits will call the shots in a few years....mayawati is a shining example of dalit power.

the other jaathi hindus will be busy in pulling each other legs .....

 

[sapr333]

Why do you want only the Brahmins to give up Jathi. Why not ask the Vanniars, Mukkulathors, Arunthathiar and others to give up their Jathi. They form a bigger portion of the population.

Again you are creating your own enemy.. Show me the post #, where I asked Brahmins only to give up Jaathi.. Every one should shun the caste, not alone Brahmins.

As a society, who is still in a better social strata, its easy for Brahmins to implent/initiate it.. Please rememer Abraham Lincoln is a white!! He didnt say, Oh Black, I have done no harm to you, You bail our yourself!!..

 

[malgova.mango]

easy to write in forum isn't it?

what you did to eradicate the quota raj? i'd like to hear..

 

[sapr333]

The Dalits are facing the biggest problem of their lives. Round two of the reservation game. Dalits are up against their traditional oppressors, the intermediate castes. But unlike the Brahmins, these people have muscle power and the voting power.

The Brahmins are only mute spectators in this power game.

I fully agree with you.It all percolated from Top, and the fight was always between the intermediate varnas.. Then Kshatriyas were struggling, ie Nairs fighting against Brahmins.. Soon after it was Baniya stuggleing in the hands of Kshatriya.. And later, the Sudras struggled with their immediate higher varna. And now its Dalits.. And once dalits break free, they will target on 'Tribals''... At the moment it has percolated the last varna.

The root cause: Varna ideology

 

[malgova.mango]

What a discovery!

you should be awarded NOBEL for this...

 

[sapr333]

easy to write in forum isn't it?

what you did to eradicate the quota raj? i'd like to hear..

In democracy, Quota Raj was the only option to bring people to level playing platfrom.... A govt cannot control one's emotional aspects/debaunchery.
At that time, most the caste-men were not even ready to accept the notion of 'Equality''. Remember, in early 1900's, people were not asking for education/Job reservation. Rather, they asked for right to visit temple, right to drink water, right to education (not reservation).. When society was reluctant to yield that, people forced entry in to temples. A man made Law has to be framed to give permission for a person to seek God..

Had there been a guilt/A.A kind of feeling, im sure it wouldnt have gone to this extend.. And subsequent law added to that heat was reservation..

Matter of fact, Im all for initial reservation, in the light of , bringing up people who were oppressed in the past, and bring them to level playing platform. Im clear about it in my conscience.. Putting full stop to reservation, I'm all for it, and have mentioned it in my previous post too.

 

[malgova.mango]

have you done anything more than this ? did you consult with your people about it?

thani maram thoopaagathu...

replying to your last para...

 

[sapr333]

But unlike the Brahmins, these people have muscle power and the voting power.

The Brahmins are only mute spectators in this power game.

This happens in any society.. These kind of social turbulance erupts, when someone is pounded too much.

Americans realised it at the initial stages itself, and implemented Affirmative Action (Not reservation).. Its done with the ideology of White-Guilt, and it was voluntary.

Contrarily, the same whites had to face music in South Africa. They never agreed upon the whilte guilt or AA.. Look what happens now..80% of their lands & jobs were stripped out (by law), and given back to black.. Thats a natural phenomina in any society.

We Indians also behaved like White South africans.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Again you are creating your own enemy.. Show me the post #, where I asked Brahmins only to give up Jaathi.. Every one should shun the caste, not alone Brahmins.

As a society, who is still in a better social strata, its easy for Brahmins to implent/initiate it.. Please rememer Abraham Lincoln is a white!! He didnt say, Oh Black, I have done no harm to you, You bail our yourself!!..

Then go and post elsewhere.

BTW the war with the southern states were not exactly over the slavery issue. In fact it was only a minor issue. Please go through the black history to find out how the Blacks fared in the northern states.

The Brahmins have no intention of giving up their unique identity. We have a distinct culture and we will retain it. If you call it Jathi then it is your problem.

You were talking about Sakya Muni Buddha. That was the first organized anti-Brahmin movement. In the last 3000 years there have been a number of movements against the Brahmins. When the foreign invaders came to India the Brahmins were the first targets. They were the visible symbols of Hinduism. Thousands of Brahmins have been burnt alive, tortured and made to do acts which is against their beliefs. The British also tried these tricks at the time of the struggle for independence.