Why I Am Not A Hindu ?- Book Review

[palindrome]

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So do you beleive in collective Karma, as explained by Dalai Lama/Gandhiji.. If not, please present your view,in line with Vedhas..Thanks.

vedas usually talk abt individual karma but yogis explain things using examples abt collective karma. so, i think collective karma is not unknown to the hindus. it does exist in them. i remember having read some article where dalai lama explained collective karma. i do not know if gandhiji spoke abt one. will need to read up on all of them. btw, am not in agreement with the salvation kind of karma concept of the christian world.

 

[s007bala]

re

people like to identify themselves with some 'bracket'!india has its own identification systems from time immemorial.society was functioning.today the rules of the game is influenced by 'british east india companies white christians'=democracy.its a system worth venturing into.our leaders for the 62 years are trying to amalgamate such a society,wherein every individual is important by virtue of his/her selfless contribution to growth of society.

our religious shastras are interpreted as per the influence of the ruler who can sway or change directions of living as per some principle or idealogy,which is homespun or imported.more often than not,i see, that our religion has been 'branded' as hinduism when no such branding existed for eons of millenia.so,collectively indians have lost it and allowed the influence of 'mlechas'=foreigners, like islam ,christanity to change the minds of the people who rule india,one way or the other.

kancha using the word 'hindu' has no meaning in shastram or hinduism has no meaning in shastras,as there no such words in vedams,upanishads,....mlechas created this word,and only a low life can even think of continuing this sicko branding,of sanathana dharma.the reason being,mlechas dont know how to prounounce,sanathana dharma,deliberately,so that he/she is impinging on your personal innovation of your way of life=eternal living principle of dwa-darshanas of india.

sb

 

[sapr333]

collective karmas? i dont believe so... all karmas delvolve individually and that is how it effects... :

Points taken..

To make you understand, instead of digging hindu philosophy to educate you, I have a small question...

1) Why natural disasters happen?

2) If its individualistic Karma, on what basis, all those bad karmic people gather at one place, instantly during that disaster..

3) Why God sends such natural disasters?

Dont present your arguement "Role Play'.. cos that defeats the whole objective of 'Purpose in life'' . If its a role play, then I dont need to do good to others, and I can be a serial killer or rapist, enjoy my life, and call it as role play of God..

If you dont like Dalai Lama/Gandhi/Adi Shankara;s points, please attempt to answer this. Im curiously waiting..

 

[sapr333]

vedas usually talk abt individual karma but yogis explain things using examples abt collective karma. so, i think collective karma is not unknown to the hindus. it does exist in them. i remember having read some article where dalai lama explained collective karma. i do not know if gandhiji spoke abt one. will need to read up on all of them. btw, am not in agreement with the salvation kind of karma concept of the christian world.

Its fine, at the moment, we are not talking here about 'Christian salvation karma' here..

Thanks you found some time to dig about collective karma.. Let me also wait, what Seshadri got to say on this..

Now, lets go back to our earlier debate on White-Guilt & Collective Men's karma for discriminating women..

Shouldnt we do good karma/good deed to bail it out of that collective karma?

 

[s007bala]

re

Points taken..
To make you understand, instead of digging hindu philosophy to educate you, I have a small question...
1) Why natural disasters happen?
2) If its individualistic Karma, on what basis, all those bad karmic people gather at one place, instantly during that disaster..
3) Why God sends such natural disasters?

what you term as disaster is only a temperorary period of time of an event,which has a cause.natural means that which happens on its own accord=then why question whats natural?karma happens for bhu-loka,its your mind which is assigning a small part of geography in earth.disaster happen for a cause=understand the cause.

Dont present your arguement "Role Play'.. cos that defeats the whole objective of 'Purpose in life'' . If its a role play, then I dont need to do good to others, and I can be a serial killer or rapist, enjoy my life, and call it as role play of God..

you are more than welcome to do whatever you want.but laws have been enacted for you to function,whats called as normal behaviour.so,god who resides in everything,is the doer not you either singularly or collectively.

If you dont like Dalai Lama/Gandhi/Adi Shankara;s points, please attempt to answer this. Im curiously waiting..

sorry,i intruded your personal interaction between you & ss.There is no question of liking or disliking lama,gandhi,sankara-on the contrary they should like us,as they are role models in society.this is the flaw in thinking,imho.

sb

 

[sapr333]

the reason being,mlechas dont know how to prounounce,sanathana dharma,deliberately,so that he/she is impinging on your personal innovation of your way of life=eternal living principle of dwa-darshanas of india.

sb

Bala, I understand your emotions...

Now, can you explain me, in lay man's language, whats 'Sanatana Dharma is all about... Im curiuos to learn from you, here.. Please share an elaborate posting on this.. Thanks in advance.

 

[s007bala]

re

Its fine, at the moment, we are not talking here about 'Christian salvation karma' here..

Thanks you found some time to dig about collective karma.. Let me also wait, what Seshadri got to say on this..

Now, lets go back to our earlier debate on White-Guilt & Collective Men's karma for discriminating women..

Shouldnt we do good karma/good deed to bail it out of that collective karma?

its a man's world,whether you accept it or not=thats reality worldover.

sb

 

[s007bala]

re

Bala, I understand your emotions...

Now, can you explain me, in lay man's language, whats 'Sanatana Dharma is all about... Im curiuos to learn from you, here.. Please share an elaborate posting on this.. Thanks in advance.

sapr333

sanathana dharama=eternal (that which is forever) living principle (that which is self satisfying your soul).

truth=sathyam
ahimsa=non-violence
love=anbu
peace=shanthi
right conduct=swa-dharma which is acceptable to majority of people.

based on the above elaborate rituals,traditions have been spun for millenias,allowing personalities to lead the masses.

sb

 

[sapr333]

Bala,

referring your post #405...

I would suggest you to get enlightened about hinduism.. If not, atleast follow the track of what we talk here..

no hard feelings, but find no points , to respond back meaningfully...

Think for a while and present your view,than just saying something to win an argument. Thanks indeed

 

[palindrome]

its a man's world,whether you accept it or not=thats reality worldover.

sb

bala,

the lines you quoted above were not mine. Sapr, plz note this reply is for you.

 

[sapr333]

its a man's world,whether you accept it or not=thats reality worldover.

sb

We havent concluded with an argument to prove, that , this is a man's world.. But what I was trying to say is, 'Man discriminiating women is definitely wrong'''.. We have a problem here in this world.. Infanticide of female child, poor women sex ration, poor participation of women in job/education/ low female literacy..

 

[s007bala]

re

Bala,

referring your post #405...

I would suggest you to get enlightened about hinduism.. If not, atleast follow the track of what we talk here..

no hard feelings, but find no points , to respond back meaningfully...

Think for a while and present your view,than just saying something to win an argument. Thanks indeed

i think i am debating,not argueing.if thats what you are thinking,plz change your mind asap.hinduism is the word of mlechas,until you grasp the inner strenght of sanathana dharma,you will go on on in circles,which is unfortunately evident,despite pali,me and others have given you ton of links...i am yet to find an individual,who is know it all of sanathana dharma,becoz its a constantly evolving dharma,based on rudimentary principles.

sb

 

[s007bala]

re

We havent concluded with an argument to prove, that , this is a man's world.. But what I was trying to say is, 'Man discriminiating women is definitely wrong'''.. We have a problem here in this world.. Infanticide of female child, poor women sex ration, poor participation of women in job/education/ low female literacy..

why female infanticide is happening=becoz its mans world.
what is wrong to you need not neccessarily be wrong to another man.
women by nature have a role or function in society,which is different.man acknowledges only a woman can get pregnant and not competing to get pregnant,even though he is the 50% cause of it.:becky:

sb

 

[palindrome]

Its fine, at the moment, we are not talking here about 'Christian salvation karma' here..

Thanks you found some time to dig about collective karma.. Let me also wait, what Seshadri got to say on this..

Now, lets go back to our earlier debate on White-Guilt & Collective Men's karma for discriminating women..

Shouldnt we do good karma/good deed to bail it out of that collective karma?

i think those of us who descended from those who did the wrong things have already paid their price...i mentioned a few things in my previous post like loss of wealth, etc...but currently there is this whole idea of reaching out to the poor by a lot more ppl...

 

[sapr333]

sapr333

sanathana dharama=eternal (that which is forever) living principle (that which is self satisfying your soul).

truth=sathyam
ahimsa=non-violence
love=anbu
peace=shanthi
right conduct=swa-dharma which is acceptable to majority of people.

based on the above elaborate rituals,traditions have been spun for millenias,allowing personalities to lead the masses.

sb

First of all, sanatana Dharma is not about rituals/traditions.. Thats why I have underlined ur post..

But somehow I feel, you havent presented a perfect picture about SD... before I present my idea of SD, I would request all the participants to write here, 'Whats Sanadana dharma'...

 

[s007bala]

re

First of all, sanatana Dharma is not about rituals/traditions.. Thats why I have underlined ur post..

But somehow I feel, you havent presented a perfect picture about SD... before I present my idea of SD, I would request all the participants to write here, 'Whats Sanadana dharma'...

sanathana dharma is not the topic of the thread technically writing,instead its the word of mlechas which kancha a dalit,who is proxying for mlechas doing about in his book written as 'hindu'..

what you feel from my writings is your entitlement.rituals,traditions are part and parcel of shastras,and if you have not understood this yet,better for forum memebers to stop posting with regards to sanathana dharma itself.

perfect picture is a state of mind,from your perspective-you are more than welcome to it.thats the greatness of sanathana dharma,the vedic verses say

a no bhadrah kratavo yantu vishwatah

May auspicious thoughts come to us from all over the world.

sb​

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

Points taken..

1) Why natural disasters happen?

2) If its individualistic Karma, on what basis, all those bad karmic people gather at one place, instantly during that disaster..

3) Why God sends such natural disasters?

If you dont like Dalai Lama/Gandhi/Adi Shankara;s points, please attempt to answer this. Im curiously waiting..

karma is only to indicate the guna of the athma in the succeeding life... it does not judge whether a person would be crushed by a boulder or die in a disaster...

karma indicates the "sufferring' (if i may use the word here)...of the mind... (mind here is the sub-conscious)... the athma is affected only by the vasanas of the sub-conscious mind... so, even if a rapist could be seen as externally enjoying himself, his inner mind would be burning, either in guilt, or in some other measure...

then coming to your original question - why do natural disasters occur?

not all actions of humans are karmic - as we progress through life, there are some actions for which we are the creator, ie., we choose to do so, it not being binding on us.... such actions can either be karmic or not, again depending on how the individual mind reacts to it...

bad people gathering together at the same time of disaster? - this is new(s) to me! how are they judged as bad? please elaborate before i can go on this....

i would use the word "event" instead of "disasters"...

To make you understand, instead of digging hindu philosophy to educate you, I have a small question...

but you could give me the source of the vedas/upanishads which say that karma is collective...? no harm in that, i suppose?

many of the philosophies are explanations to sutras... and in that, it is yet another viewpoint only...

i am surprised that you consider certain points as dogmas of hindus... it is not so... there are no dogmas, rather there are logics, some of which have to be only experienced....

Dont present your arguement "Role Play'.. cos that defeats the whole objective of 'Purpose in life'' . If its a role play, then I dont need to do good to others, and I can be a serial killer or rapist, enjoy my life, and call it as role play of God..

i have already explained why role-play logic is used... btw, i did not say that role-play is the way of life!!! i have also explained in this post itself and elsewhere about the rapist/killer theory...

presume that you do read and understand the contents of my post (no offence here either)?

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

True.. I told this earlier in one of my posts.. The way democracy is going on, will soon end up 'Reverse Discriminaton"... I can sense it..

This is what Ive been telling it all the way around. .. To shed Jaathi, caste, which many disagree with me..I even cited the shunning of Swastika symbol, inspite of it being good, it got shunned, just because that symbol got identified with genocide, for no mistake of its own.. Its all possible,in the democratic set up, that, mayawati/samajwadi party could deny even educational rights to Brahmins (thank God, our constitution is clear, one would not do that mistake again)..

Thats why i cited the difference between Amercian whites and South African whiltes.. I think, India is heading the way of South Africa.

You keep on talking about American Whites without ever reading the history of the blacks in America. You see the world as you want to see it. Not reality. Your knowledge of South Africa is equally sketchy.

Mayavati forged an alliance with the Brahmins in U.P to come to power. You seem to think that you can do anything if you have a majority.

You keep on repeating about the Brahmins denying the right of education to Dalits. You keep on repeating it ad nauseam. That does not make it a fact.

The Brahmins did not allow any other caste to learn the Vedas. That is correct and true. You may have heard of Sir.P.S. Sivaswamy Iyer who was the advocate general of Madras presidency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._S._Sivaswami_Iyer

Was he appointed by the British to that post because he had learned the Vedas? He was poor. He studied under the street lamp because they could not afford to burn a lamp in his house. Did Brahmins become officers in the Indian Civil Service because of their Vedic knowledge. It is because they took to English education.

Way back when the British East India company came with the plans to introduce English education in India, they were asked and gave an undertaking to the British Parliament that Brahmins will not be given a priority in the admissions. Castes other than Brahmins would be encouraged to learn English. This is history.

The schools and colleges were run by the English administration and the Christian missionaries. These people hated Brahmins. They were forced to admit Brahmins because none of the other communities came forward to learn English.

You shout that Brahmins denied the right of education to Dalits. How can Brahmins who did not own any schools/colleges deny the right of education to any one. You believe in your own propaganda.

Go and ask the Jesuit fathers of St. Joseph's College, Thiruchirappalli, why they did not ensure that there were more Dalits than Brahmins in their college? Ask them why their college was considered a bastion of the Brahmins?

Yes. The Brahmins denied the right of learning Vedas to other castes. Then did the carpenter Caste teach carpentry to Dalits? Did the goldsmith caste teach their profession to Dalits. Show me one caste which was interested in passing on the knowledge of their Kula profession to others.

Learning the Vedas made the Brahmins dependent on handouts from the other communities. They were worse off than the carpenters and even the Vettiyans. Because you had to get the carpentry work done and had to burn the bodies, but religious ceremonies were optional.

Do you know that the Doms of Varanasi who hold the hereditary rights of burning the bodies are very rich. The first individual to buy a car in Travancore was an Ezhava. Read about it in K.P.S. Menon's book.

Swastika is still a respected Hindu religious figure. You will find all the Hindus drawing Swastika in their homes during Deepavali in North India. Hindus do not shun it. You have been misinformed.

Your knowledge of world history seem to be limited to reading of your own propaganda material. The same is true of your knowledge of Hinduism. Please read some good unbiased history books.

I do not mean this as a slight. Many members in the internet forums let their enthusiasm carry the day without having a good background of facts.

 

[sapr333]

Sapr,

Abt your previous post to me comparing india with south africa:

though i think the comparison is rather stretched, am soon to be involved in working for reservation-status for a particular community and doing my bit in harnessing their resources together as an organized unit.

am done with all talking abt reservations. it took time and some heart wrenching time to put idealism aside..the clarity and direction, both are clear now. i have nothing more to say on this reservations topic. thanks.

Anyways, my objective in this thread, is not about 'Reservations'... After all, its more of a worldly social issue..I only presented some facts of life,about, how the world/society is going through, and shared some events from history.. Anyways, there is no hidden intentions in that talk.

My message out there was, "Lets understand the importance of finding God, in another person'. ".

 

[sapr333]

Seshadri, aplogize, I couldnt comprehend your previous post of 'Collective Karma".. May be you have something good to express, but its not rightfully presented..

I have only a small question on this... " Why do Natural Disasters happen, and why people in group get punished"... As you disagreed with collective karma, then what could be your better answer..

I have intentionally simplified my question, inorder to stay focussed on this point.. thanks

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Never talk about Collective Karma when we are talking of caste issue. I have heard so often when we talk about the ills of the Indian especially Hindu society, people remarking that "It is their Karma that they were born into that caste."

We have tales from the Puranas about persons like Kannappa Nayanar being born into a particular caste and who attained Mukthi because of their Bhakthi. The standing example is Saint Valmiki.

There is nothing called collective Karma in Hinduism.

 

[sapr333]

Affirmative action in the US began as a tool to address the persisting inequalities for African Americans in the 1960s. This specific term was first used to describe US government policy in 1961. .">>>That is not early. Is it? We had reservations before that.>>

The black discrimination in U.S is just 250 yrs old. Where as we carry the blot from the days of Buddha(350BC)..And we are the oldest civilization to claim great..But we couldnt solve, rather find an answer to this issue.Thats the plight


>>>>You have totally discounted The efforts of Martin Luther King >>>

Rather, I highlighted Abraham lincoln, cos, it answers the 'Guilt'.. We shouldnt be talking of Ambedkar,rather, we should have 1000 Bharathiyars, in taking the lead. Thats affirmative action.


>>>>Have you heard of KKK?

Pretty much.. Klu Klux is just another kinda fundamentalists.. And they share no meaning in a society ... I can call them as just another Mujahideens..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan


>>>Have you been to U.S. I have studied there in the 60s and know.

I have holiday'd out few times, but not for schooling/job. I think, you may tally with my dad's time-line.. He studied there in '65 or '66 in East coast..

I do respect your age and wisdom,now

sa

 

[sapr333]

Never talk about Collective Karma when we are talking of caste issue. I have heard so often when we talk about the ills of the Indian especially Hindu society, people remarking that "It is their Karma that they were born into that caste.">>>>>

So, according to you, its all their duty.. A scavenger by birth , his sons, his grandson, has to do the scavenging job, as ordained, as duty.. If so, then Karma has no role in this! Rather, as said by Bala, its all Gods play..Good or bad is enacted by Gods, and where is the Karma doctrine, why one should do good deeds to escape/atone from bad karma..

>>>>We have tales from the Puranas about persons like Kannappa Nayanar being born into a particular caste and who attained Mukthi because of their Bhakthi.>>>

So do you mean, that out of 300Mn untouchable hindus in this 2008, still we couldnt locate a Brahmin? And I told you earlier, an anecdote about Chidhambaram temple's closed gate " Kannapanarukke Kathavu saathinoom"..



>>>There is nothing called collective Karma in Hinduism>>>

After reading that book on "religions answer to disaster', I thought HInduism has philosophical answers to disasters in line with Karma.. But,You are refuting here, bluntly.. Can you refute the statements of DalaiLama and Gandhiji atleast..... Let me know, where they went wrong, according to hinduism's doctines/dogmas.. Just curious

.

s

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

The life of Valmiki is itself an example of the the individuality of karma...

"When he, as a hunter queried all of his family members, as to whether they would share his burden of sin, all of them replied in the negative... a great realization then dawned upon him that he alone is the cause and effect of karmic actions... his previous logic was that, they too would have a share in his actions, as after all, his actions were to secure their well-being! But the right (discretionary power) in selecting an action rests with the individual and hence his actions did not bind those under him"

Attributing natural disasters is not because of karmic actions of humans... it is karmic in the sense that "we create and we use/abuse", but one cannot equate natural combinations to the concept of karmic rebirth...

Again, I ask you, please quote from the Vedas/Upanishads about the concept of collective karma, rather than relying on the statements of the dalai lama or gandhi... thanks

 

[sapr333]

There is nothing called collective Karma in Hinduism.

If I were to quote something from Buddhism, would you agree with that..Cos its widely believed both are same in the core dogmas...

If not, if I were to quote 'Collective Karma' from some other sects of hinduism, like Narayana Guru,ISKON,Basavappa Lingayathism, Vaikunadar, will you agree with me..

If not, on which religious or its subsect basis, doesnt matter Vaishavam or shivam.... Lets choose a base for it.. lets choose one particular school of hinduism, and debate on this point of Collective Karma...

And curiuos..!!!