Why I Am Not A Hindu ?- Book Review

[malgova.mango]

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did you present your idea of eradicating quota system in any of dalit forums?

 

[malgova.mango]

looks like you are interested in only painting a picture that we are the aggressors and you are the oppressed.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Affirmative action in the US began as a tool to address the persisting inequalities for African Americans in the 1960s. This specific term was first used to describe US government policy in 1961. Directed to all government contracting agencies, President Kennedy's Executive Order 10925 mandated "affirmative action to ensure that applicants are employed, and that employees are treated during employment, without regard to their race, creed, color, or national origin."

That is not early. Is it? We had reservations before that.

You have totally discounted The efforts of Martin Luther King and the Black's struggle for equal treatment. Please read history books before heaping praise on the White Americans.

If they were that good why Black panthers and the Nation of Islam?

Have you heard of KKK?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan

Have you been to U.S. I have studied there in the 60s and know.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

The question of abolishing jathi is unviable... let us not talk about that...

Similarly reservation is also here to stay... let us not boil our heads over that...

The problem are people like sapr333 who perceive jathi as the root problem... in spite of so much explanation and examples, there is this stubborness of mind which refuses to accept anything which is pro-jathi...

I, for one, is proud to retain my jathi identity... and have seen many nb friends proud of it... do not cook up stories that jathi is discriminatory... my family is an example for me... and I have seen many others the same...

Hinduism, or Sanathana Dharma, with all its vagaries is the most beautiful way to all spheres of one's life... whether it be material or spiritual...

Diversities do exist but so is nature...

Social practices which are inhuman or do not respect basic human dignity are to be avoided, but certainly not jathi...

If somebody, like kancha, feels ashamed, it simply means that he has not taken the trouble to understand his religion or culture and has chosen the easy way out...

There are many rice-bag christian converts, who have done so out of sheer poverty - there the question is not of religion or equality, but of food, clothing and shelter... religion is immaterial in such cases...

even if osama bin laden or hitler had provided them the bare necessities, they would have sided with such individuals...

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

did you present your idea of eradicating quota system in any of dalit forums?

ha ha ha... he would have been called names and would have been thrown out...

there is more anti-brahminism to such dalit-upliftment ideologies than social improvement...

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

Little introspection about 'Collective Karma' will answer your point.

And 'All Male race' will get accountable for this evil meted out on women. And only option to escape that bad karma is,accept the mistakes,repend, do good to women and bring them up, to ward of the bad karma. The term White-Guilt also means the same.

your understanding of karma is laughable... let us not get mixed with topics... your are trying to link between various concepts without comprehending them fully...

there is no collective karma, it is only individual... and it depends both on the doer and the recipient... and their perception of their situation too...

too many variables to justify in a statement like what you have done above...

 

[sapr333]

looks like you are interested in only painting a picture that we are the aggressors and you are the oppressed.

Mango, please stop judging people.. Where did I use the term You & I or Us/Them.. Oh! Please..

We are discussing an issue, and I'm approching it, with a broad mind. There could be so many contradictory views. Then, its a, good exchange of thoughts indeed.

Please dont expect me or that matter any one, to tread your way. Then there is no meaning in that kind of debate.

 

[sapr333]

>>>>your understanding of karma is laughable...

Seshadri,Oh Please!!These adjectives doesnt add any value to the discussion here.


Seshadri says>>>there is no collective karma, it is only individual... and it depends both on the doer and the recipient... and their perception of their situation too...>>>

Seshadri, Im sure you will stick to your claim of "No Collective Karma". Please book mark this too, as we are heading for an interesting topic..

As far as I know, 'Collective /group Karma' is one of the important doctrine in Hinduism & Buddhism too. Its the main tool used to explain natural disastars..

Infact, few months ago I bought an interesting book ': Can God Intervene?: How Religion Explains Natural Disasters, By Gary Stern, it really tells 'Collective Karma/Group Karma as an answer to this".. See if you could pick up this book, its worth reading, which analyses all religions of the world.

Anyway, to make you convincing, I quote here some of the Indian references.

The Dalai Lama attributed Tibet's loss of sovereignty in the 1950s group karmic effect of his country's feudal past.

Gandhi claimed that a 1934 earthquake was punishment for India's harsh treatment of its perpetually lower-class "untouchables," Indian author Arvind Sharma.

Seshadri, could you please present your counterview on this.. Waiting....

...

PS:Seshadri, could you please present your counterview on this.. Waiting....

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

Seshadri,Oh Please!!These adjectives doesnt add any value to the discussion here.

the question of karma evolving upon beings is not so easy to comprehend as we seem to think so; but you seemed to arrive at some conclusion just so often, based on the logic of karma... and hence my expression...

PS:Seshadri, could you please present your counterview on this.. Waiting....

let us consider that there are five winners who share an equal amount of money... the money goes into each of their individual account rather than a separate joint account for them all... does this make it any clearer?

 

[sapr333]

>>>Diversities do exist but so is nature...>>>

Off late I got a chance to quote a line from Kancha's book.. Its pretty interesting..

Diversity in caste names Yes.. In culture Yes.. In language Yes..In dress Yes. In food habits yes.. But diversity in Job participation/Schools(incl women), definitely a BIG BIG No...(thats a bit contrary to A.A)...


>>>>There are many rice-bag christian converts, who have done so out of sheer poverty - there the question is not of religion or equality, but of food, clothing and shelter... religion is immaterial in such cases..even if osama bin laden or hitler had provided them the bare necessities, they would have sided with such individuals..>>>


Sheshadri, by an time in your life, have you attempted to talk to those rice-bag christians, and tried to share your idea of goodness in Hinduism, and tried to make them a come back .. Another option, if they have converted for rice bags, do you think they will come back to hindu fold, if you give them a truck load of rice bags.. Atleast, have you ever been successful with your spirituality, in winning them back? Next time, you see a convert, please try this.

Also, now that in India rice is just 1Rs/Kg, so acccording to you, the conversions would have stopped right..

Keep aside Christians.. with all your good knowledge of Vedas, could you ever be able to tell it to a Buddhist, that, he is also a part of HInduism... Just try next time, and see what his response is..

Sometime back, Palindrome shared a wonderful novel point..Some hindus in U.S join the Church, just because they wanted to be identified with 'A big Group'.. Seems to be right too, and Bobby Jindal could be one among.. But, why In India,we dont find any such think, ie, people wanting to be identified with the top big group of HInduism?


Any conversion needs a conviction towards God.. Otherwise,its meaning less and he is not a hindu/moslem/Christian/Buddhist.

.

n

 

[malgova.mango]

no i've to, inspite of counters offered not to compare with white and negro..you 've repeatedly done so.

this is a mindset of person who wants to conclude in his way.

all the talk of broad mindedness and openness is a mere show.

BTW , i'm STILL awaiting for an answer on your contribution ON ERADICATION of quota system in dalit forums - would you please answer that

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

Sheshadri, by an time in your life, have you attempted to talk to those rice-bag christians, and tried to share your idea of goodness in Hinduism, and tried to make them a come back .. Another option, if they have converted for rice bags, do you think they will come back to hindu fold, if you give them a truck load of rice bags.. Atleast, have you ever been successful with your spirituality, in winning them back? Next time, you see a convert, please try this.

i have, believe me... and they are no good... there is a place called idayarpalayam pirivu in coimbatore-palghat highway... and i, along with others had gone there on some other purpose and we met this group of rice-bags :decision:... converts. their minds were closed - the correct term is brainwashed; no amount of logical explanation could convince... you see, as i said earlier, they would have been staunch followers of even obl or hitler, had they had helped in upliftment...

spirituality is only for the one who thinks, reflects and acts... not for people who have a closed mindset or have herd mentality... such people can be flocked together by giving them alleviation from mental pain or distress (like christianity or islam), but to do a soul search, one needs a higher plane of mind...

spiritual talk is not the key here...

Also, now that in India rice is just 1Rs/Kg, so acccording to you, the conversions would have stopped right..

so, what is the latest term, you tell me!!!

Keep aside Christians.. with all your good knowledge of Vedas, could you ever be able to tell it to a Buddhist, that, he is also a part of HInduism... Just try next time, and see what his response is..

why should i do that? challenging another to refute his claim is not my intent... that is what the christians and moslems do... i believe in the inherent goodness of my religion and try to live up to its ideals...

you seem kinda lost here.. with such statements...

Any conversion needs a conviction towards God.. Otherwise,its meaning less and he is not a hindu/moslem/Christian/Buddhist.

all conversions are fakes; they are only to establish a social identity rather than a spiritual one...

 

[palindrome]

Little introspection about 'Collective Karma' will answer your point.

And 'All Male race' will get accountable for this evil meted out on women. And only option to escape that bad karma is,accept the mistakes,repend, do good to women and bring them up, to ward of the bad karma. The term White-Guilt also means the same.

Sapr33,

How does one decide what are they accountable for? If one small handful of elders were notorious for their ways, there were / are many other elders who practically did sacrifice their lives for their ideals. My father completed medicine with a silver medal and chose a job that paid peanuts, but that which allowed him to work in villages all his life. So, shd i not benefit from his ideals too? Why shd i be made to feel only the guilt-part for what some males amongst the elders did. Why not the good parts. Does not collective karma apply to me here?

Sorry sir, so far i have felt guilty only for my own actions, not for others' actions. True, karma plays its role, but in other ways. Loss of wealth, land holdings, childlessness, etc..there are very many ways karma is paid back without our knowledge...thanks.

 

[palindrome]

your understanding of karma is laughable..
too many variables to justify in a statement like what you have done above...

please let us not write sentences like laughing at anyone's understanding...what we know may be the kind that others can laugh at too...please let us explain using examples instead..thanks.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

please let us not write sentences like laughing at anyone's understanding...what we know may be the kind that others can laugh at too...please let us explain using examples instead..thanks.

please let me express myself as i am... please allow me to express that i too know decorum in a discussion... please let us not comment on others' statement (as above) and try to be goody-two-shoes... thanks...

 

[sapr333]

Seshadri, I thought you must be atleast well versed with basic hindu tenets..

You even laughed at me, when I responded to Palindrome, about Group Karmic effect on men for all the discrimination men meted out on women.. Before palindrome could response, you took the liberty of calling me a "Laughing stock'', without knowing that, 'Group/collective karma is one of the basic dogmas of hinduism..

When I refered Gandhi,Dalali Lama, and futher about the hinduisms convincing answers to 'Natural Calamities', you took the last resort to say "Karma is too difficult to understand'''..Probalby, you dont want to loose an argument.....btw, Gandhi/Dalailama never said its complex...Or the author of the book I cited,justified Group karma in a pretty convincing way.Alas!!for you, it seems to be complex one, possibly your objective was just to win an argument here..Not to share the thoughts..

Im not sure if you are a college going student..(wild guess,dont take it personally please).. for me, for last 4 yrs, since the age of 30, I've been exploring hindu philosophies pretty aggreesively with lot of interest(also all global religions)..Thats the one reason, I logged in here, cos I thought this site could be worthy, cos its the place for scholars. The kind of money I spend of buying various religious/philosphical/theological books is 100 times more than the money I used spend on buys rock music casettes/CD's 10 years ago.... Anyways, these are irrelevant to the discussion here.. Apologize, I shared too much of personal thoughts..

If you are serious to explore the truth, please join me , and start engaging in a healthy debate.. Thanks in advance.

 

[palindrome]

Why do you want only the Brahmins to give up Jathi. Why not ask the Vanniars, Mukkulathors, Arunthathiar and others to give up their Jathi. They form a bigger portion of the population.

i perfectly agree with this.

i notice that nobody is willing to give up jaathi.

every non-brahmin community takes pride in its own culture and ways..they are just not willing to be compared with any tribes; and they paint the person making the comparisons as some kind of an asuric villan. i find it totally funny the way they too use the way asura....

i am esp keen to know how on earth can mukkalathors call themselves kshatriyas and then fight this so-called war for a casteless society.

for the poor younger ones (of any caste) they can neither make sense of politicans who take advantage of caste-reservations nor make sense of mutts defining other people's jaathis. They cannot be bothered abt either of them, but both play a role of a rather rude intrusion into their lives by forcibly defining them. They are stuck like in a sandwich for no fault of theirs. All that is left to do is to join the bandwagon of caste based reservations and get to make a life.

 

[malgova.mango]

sap !

your last sentence ...

you meant that if one is committed to know or explore truth , then they should join you is it? ... common don't go overboard. 4 years is nothing...

what you need is a sincere desire to know the facts - not someone to nod at your projections. Your mind is already influenced by Buddhism - how can you approach with open mind.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

Seshadri, I thought you must be atleast well versed with basic hindu tenets..

You even laughed at me, when I responded to Palindrome, about Group Karmic effect on men for all the discrimination men meted out on women.. Before palindrome could response, you took the liberty of calling me a "Laughing stock'', without knowing that, 'Group/collective karma is one of the basic dogmas of hinduism..

When I refered Gandhi,Dalali Lama, and futher about the hinduisms convincing answers to 'Natural Calamities', you took the last resort to say "Karma is too difficult to understand'''..Probalby, you dont want to loose an argument.....btw, Gandhi/Dalailama never said its complex...Or the author of the book I cited,justified Group karma in a pretty convincing way.Alas!!for you, it seems to be complex one, possibly your objective was just to win an argument here..Not to share the thoughts..

Im not sure if you are a college going student..(wild guess,dont take it personally please).. for me, for last 4 yrs, since the age of 30, I've been exploring hindu philosophies pretty aggreesively with lot of interest(also all global religions)..Thats the one reason, I logged in here, cos I thought this site could be worthy, cos its the place for scholars. The kind of money I spend of buying various religious/philosphical/theological books is 100 times more than the money I used spend on buys rock music casettes/CD's 10 years ago.... Anyways, these are irrelevant to the discussion here.. Apologize, I shared too much of personal thoughts..

If you are serious to explore the truth, please join me , and start engaging in a healthy debate.. Thanks in advance.

collective karmas? i dont believe so... all karmas delvolve individually and that is how it effects... btw, am curious to know how group karma is one of the basic dogma of hinduism! can you please quote the source? (Just googled a bit, collective karma seems to be more buddhist than anything else)...

i cannot comment on the definition of karmic effects according to dalai lama or gandhi's...

and if you think that i dont know hinduism, you are at liberty to do so...

karma is just not simple enough to be understood... we only have the broad principles not the intricacies... at least, i dont have...

and that is why your effect on karmic effect is premature and hence my statement - i think i clarified the same... if you consider that as a premise for evaluating a discussion, i would not stop you...

i have nothing to say about your individual interests... if you think that am a college going student, i will not say anything to alter that perception/impression, for it does not bother me...

an open debate/discussion is when people accept/acknowledge various possibilites and do not confine themselves to pre-conceived notions... though you had certain valid points, your interpretations are biased and you refused to acknowledge the validity in the other... if you think that those are the lines of debate, then sir, am not for it...

wish you well in your journey... :wave:

 

[palindrome]

dalits will call the shots in a few years....mayawati is a shining example of dalit power.

the other jaathi hindus will be busy in pulling each other legs .....

i agree with this too...mayawati is offering quota sops to everyone this elections, including quotas for upper castes...

the dalits are very well poised to take over a good many things in the next world...and others will be left just talking...found that dalits will be priests in tirupati: http://agrasen.blogspot.com/2009/02/tirupati-to-train-dalits-to-be-priests.html and this one is from kerala: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/..._priests_in_Kerala/rssarticleshow/3649407.cms

so the only way for each community to take care of itself is to ask for reservations...

Sapr33,

please note the sentences in bold. dalits are already getting what they want. only some non-brahmin communities that are unfortunately categorized by the tamilnadu governement as forward castes are not getting anything...

 

[sapr333]

Sapr33,

111>>>Why shd i be made to pay the guilt-part for what some males amongst the elders did. Why not the good parts. Does not collective karma apply to me here?

222>>>Sorry sir, so far i have felt guilty only for my own actions, not for others' actions. True, karma plays its role, but in other ways. Loss of wealth, land holdings, childlessness, etc..there are very many ways karma is paid back without our knowledge...thanks.

11)Palindrome,thanks for the prompt response.. Most of the Islamic views falls in line with with you...Why Should I pay for some one's sin.. It calls for absolute justice..Why should you pay the price for someones mistake.. While analysing different religions, Islam talks perfectly in line with your thought.. Why should I pay for my ancestors mistake..Christianity touches a bit, which is indeed the most debated subject in the world "Oriiginal Sin'... Why should I pay the price for what the first man Adam did? Hinduism comes bit closer in the same way, as 'collective karma'... I have shared this with Seshadri about Gandhi/Dalailama's view on answering 'Natural calamities'... Pls go through them and respond back..

22) Pls, dont address me as Sir... May be if we meet in person, I may be addressing you as Sir... Possible. Hope, it was not a sarcasm from ur end...

Answer to your post is, Karma violates the Absolute Justice in tandom with Absolute Love of God..And I cannot buy Karma's view of, my unknown mistake of past getting attributed to my present.. There is a metaphysical dilemma here..

 

[palindrome]

Sesh,

You said:

did you get the point?

and i said

please do not ask ppl if they got the point or not b4 a discussion is complete, other too can ask you if you got the point or not in the middle of a discussion.

Now you say

if you want to ask me about "points", it is your wish... why would i speculate about your ability to do so...:bored:

i did not ask for any "points" or whatever...it is your logic or perception or whatever that you got the context wrong :bored: and did i ask you to speculate?

plus you say:

but then, on the other hand, you should be prudent enough not to conclude that brahmins "should live in poverty"... without sufficient proof to the same!

we cannot arrive at an arithematic mean and neither is it wise to take extremes... all am saying is that brahmins are not meant to live in poverty... for that matter nobody is...!

did i ever conclude that anyone shd live in poverty. i only asked was the role of a brahmin designed for earnings other than dakshinas. that does not mean poverty. neither does it mean that i want anyone to live in poverty. am in favor for better salaries for priests and for a better life for all. for heaven's sake, how can anyone assume that ppl wud want anyone to live in poverty.

thanks for your advice on arithmatic and what is wise. but am not seeking your advice on the same.

no offence meant. thanks.

 

[palindrome]

Answer to your post is, Karma violates the Absolute Justice in tandom with Absolute Love of God..And I cannot buy Karma's view of my unknown mistake of past getting attributed to my present.. There is a metaphysical dilemma here..

not sure i got it properly. what is the metaphysical dilemma here?

 

[sapr333]

Sapr33,

please note the sentences in bold. dalits are already getting what they want. only some non-brahmin communities that are unfortunately categorized by the tamilnadu governement as forward castes are not getting anything...

True.. I told this earlier in one of my posts.. The way democracy is going on, will soon end up 'Reverse Discriminaton"... I can sense it..

This is what Ive been telling it all the way around. .. To shed Jaathi, caste, which many disagree with me..I even cited the shunning of Swastika symbol, inspite of it being good, it got shunned, just because that symbol got identified with genocide, for no mistake of its own.. Its all possible,in the democratic set up, that, mayawati/samajwadi party could deny even educational rights to Brahmins (thank God, our constitution is clear, one would not do that mistake again)..

Thats why i cited the difference between Amercian whites and South African whiltes.. I think, India is heading the way of South Africa.

 

[sapr333]

not sure i got it properly. what is the metaphysical dilemma here?[/QUOTE]

Talking in line with Metaphysics, I think, we may have to spend long posts here..May be we take long time in uderstanding metaphyics ..

So, at the moment, I take back that line of Metaphysics, in order to stay focussed on our objective(bear with me)..

So do you beleive in collective Karma, as explained by Dalai Lama/Gandhiji.. If not, please present your view,in line with Vedhas..Thanks.