Why I Am Not A Hindu ?- Book Review

[sapr333]

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Collective/Group Karma:-

Some one here told me, thats he is not impressed by Gandhi/DalaiLama's quote and justifications of existence of Group Karma.. Fine.. At the moment, Im bit tied up, and may not find time to dig in to it..

Having said that, I can say, if Group Karma doesnt exist, then, I can say, 'Hindu philosophy is unable to explain, 'Why People die in mass, during natural calamities.. However, most of the readings I came across,accept hinduism's view on this subject, cos it gives a convincing answer to natural disasters.

May be , people out here may not agree to this, jsut for the argument sake,or for selfish , fundamentalistic reasons....Cos, group Karma make one accountable towards the society and past karma's social deeds.. And many may not accept it.. Reasons known... All are selfish right, and wants religion to sing their tunes!!

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

For example, if a group of individuals engage in adharmic killing or any such acts, then, though they had acted in tandem, the responsibility is individual and not collective... the karmic effect would apply on them individually and not collectively...

It means that the group of people would not suffer the same fate, together, and at the same time, for their adharmic act (which is done as a group)... the fixation is on the individual...

It is only in legal parlance that there is individual and collective responsibility...

I am adding on here, as after posting this, I saw your previous post... The concept of duty/dharma makes one responsible for his self and towards the society and not the concept of karma...

There is another thread on "Dharma" by shri KRS, which you could browse at your leisure...

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

If I were to quote something from Buddhism, would you agree with that..Cos its widely believed both are same in the core dogmas...

If not, if I were to quote 'Collective Karma' from some other sects of hinduism, like Narayana Guru,ISKON,Basavappa Lingayathism, Vaikunadar, will you agree with me..

If not, on which religious or its subsect basis, doesnt matter Vaishavam or shivam.... Lets choose a base for it.. lets choose one particular school of hinduism, and debate on this point of Collective Karma...

And curiuos..!!!

The people you have mentioned are all reformers. Even Sakhya Muni Buddha was a reformer.

There are one too many schools of Hinduism.

Now Tantras do not believe in discrimination based on caste or sex. Now if I quote Tantra text and conclude that this is the case with Hinduism as a whole would you accept it. No one would.

We have had international seminars on the Karma theory. The seminar papers are published as a book. I will give you the name of the book tomorrow. It is very late now. Have to get up at 4.00 A.M.

 

[sapr333]

.

The Brahmins did not allow any other caste to learn the Vedas. That is correct and true. .

Veda's is not Vocation like Carpentary/Goldsmith. Its the spiritual content,and verses of/about God. Why this was made as one's property right. Every hindu should have had the access to it..

How much it differ's from the Catholics, who once upon a time,refused to translate the Bible from Latin?


Lets keep aside past. Now, whats your view on sharing 'Vedas' to all hindus?..Reciting Vedas by all hindus? Translating Veda's in all languages?

 

[s007bala]

In Bhagawad Gita, sloka 20, Chapter 10, Lord Krishna says,

"I am the Self seated in the heart of all creatures. I am the beginning, the middle and the very end of all beings". All beings have, therefore to be treated alike.

Lord Krishna as saying, in response to the question— "How is Varna (social order) determined?"

"Birth is not the cause, my friend; it is virtues which are the cause of auspiciousness. Even a chandala (lower caste) observing the vow is considered a Brahman by the gods."

“The four fold division of castes’ “was created by me according to the apportionment of qualities and duties.” “Not birth, not sacrament, not learning, make one dvija (twice-born), but righteous conduct alone causes it.” “Be he a Sudra or a member of any other class, says the Lord in the same epic, “he that serves as a raft on a raftless current , or helps to ford the unfordable, deserves respect in everyway.”

sb

 

[sapr333]

In Bhagawad Gita, sloka 20, Chapter 10, Lord Krishna says,



"Birth is not the cause, my friend; it is virtues which are the cause of auspiciousness. Even a chandala (lower caste) observing the vow is considered a Brahman by the gods."

sb

So, if gods could consider a chandala as Brahman by virtue, then, why we couldnt follow the same.. Of the 350Mn untouchable Hindus, still we couldnt find one to be elevated as Brahmana. Do you think all the 350Mn untouchables dont have virtue.. why? What could be the root cause of this..

 

[malgova.mango]

read observing the vows

 

[palindrome]

sapr, hv just started reading up on the buddhist perspective of collective karma and enjoying it, but not in a position to discuss it as yet...however, since there is nothing to do with the topic of reservations in this thread anymore, am out of it. thanks.

 

[sapr333]

sapr, hv just started reading up on the buddhist perspective of collective karma and enjoying it, but not in a position to discuss it as yet...however, since there is nothing to do with the topic of reservations in this thread anymore, am out of it. thanks.

If you come across any good links in 'Collective Karma' please share with me.
These points were also touched by Swami Vivekanandha.

Let me know, how buddhism's collective Karma could be reconciled with Hinduism's Karma.

 

[palindrome]

Veda's is not Vocation like Carpentary/Goldsmith. Its the spiritual content,and verses of/about God. Why this was made as one's property right. Every hindu should have had the access to it..

How much it differ's from the Catholics, who once upon a time,refused to translate the Bible from Latin?


Lets keep aside past. Now, whats your view on sharing 'Vedas' to all hindus?..Reciting Vedas by all hindus? Translating Veda's in all languages?

saw this just now...i think you are mistaken here..i think it is hindus themselves who were not interested in mixing up a commoner's life with that of a man who dealt with the gods. And they sought to keep it seperate. There are also certain agamas that required a high state of purificatory rites and were best kept restricted to a group. i think all hindus recognized this and respected it...there was no competition of the rat race kind you see today. each one had their role of importance and there was no room for comparisons. At the same time, natural sanskritization has always been happening. Now there are also vedic schools that admit anyone irrespective of caste. one such school in maharashtra is run by namboodiris. certainly everyone has access to the vedas. there are english translations available. and if am not wrong translated works in german is also available..

 

[sapr333]

sThere are also certain agamas that required a high state of purificatory rites and were best kept restricted to a group. i think all hindus recognized this and respected it...there was no competition of the rat race kind you see today. ..

After, all this long deliberations of around 400 post, I can sense, and its very much clear to me,that, Jaathi, has become so deep routed, it's not that easy to remove it . And no one is interested by heart to remove this menace, or let loose the privileges/identity.Every one knows there is a kind of discrimination(both tangible and intangible), but they all accept it, cos they also have a chance to equally pound on the next lower varna, and hence the equilibrium is maintained, and ego is satisfied.

What ever the govt. does, can only balance the economical status, but cannot find answers to social/emotional feelings.

With his wisdom, Seshadri said a smart single liner '" Jaathi is going to remain for ever, and reservation also". As Natchi said, 'Blood bath in Thamrabarani, is nothing but the power fight between the last varnas. Its percolated deep down. There is another silent blood bath going on, in I.T corridor, (in a different way). In the interview, a Brahmin ensures a brahmin get selected,and a lower varna boos ensures, that no Brahmins are selected (standing instructions). Yes every one sticks to the Jaathi, if not atleast Varna rank. This is just a retaliation or revenge, which has infested the entire place.

This looks like a chain reaction, and I dont foresee any end to it. Discriminations are happening both the ways..ie, top to bottom & bottom to top. A sudra was telling me with pride, that he hired a 'Brahmin Chaffeur". This kind of sick mentality is with every one,and rooted like cancer. If karunanidhi has discriminated Brahmins, soon he gonna face the heat from PMK and next on que would be Dalit Panthers to discriminate others. This is going to be a cyclic process. May be 'KARMA' is working here effectively.

Should we take it this way, or work for shunning this menace? If we as a humans, wants to put an end to this, then we all (every caste men) need to realise this as menace, and do some give&take(tangible&intangible),and work towards it. This should come deep within our own hearts!!

I would request all of you, to throw some light on this!!

 

[sapr333]

Go and ask the Jesuit fathers of St. Joseph's College, Thiruchirappalli, why they did not ensure that there were more Dalits than Brahmins in their college? Ask them why their college was considered a bastion of the Brahmins?
.

My dad including his 3 brothers studied in the same Jesuit's St.Joseph's,Trichy during early 60's. Or even my gandpa got graduated in the same Jesuits St.Xaviers, I think it must be 30's.

When the brothers meet, I heard them sharing lot of nostalgic stories about St.Joseph's trichy(shower in cauvery by bunking hostel,collections in library,arugments with Jesuit priests,hostel food etc) , or I even enjoyed the debates between my grandpa & his son's fighting over which one is the best Jesuit college.

But, But,I have never heard them talking anything about SJC being 'Brahmin Bastion' or any related matter. May be, they never perceived things in the way, you see them now!

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Veda's is not Vocation like Carpentary/Goldsmith. Its the spiritual content,and verses of/about God. Why this was made as one's property right. Every hindu should have had the access to it..

How much it differ's from the Catholics, who once upon a time,refused to translate the Bible from Latin?


Lets keep aside past. Now, whats your view on sharing 'Vedas' to all hindus?..Reciting Vedas by all hindus? Translating Veda's in all languages?

The Vedas came down orally for thousands of years before being written down. This job of oral transmission was left to a class of people known as Brahmins. Now less than one percent of the Brahmins recite the Vedas. What is taught in the Veda Patashala of the Brahmins is basically the recitation of the Vedas.

The knowledge portion of the Vedas called Gnana Kanda has been translated extensively. This is called Vedanta. The Upanishads are the latter portion of the Vedas. They have been translated into almost every language on the earth. You can find a number of translations on the internet.

The Other portions of the Vedas deal with prayers to different Deities and rules for conducting rituals. The prayers have been translated and are available.

The ritual part has not been translated much because there is very little interest in these rituals most of which are no longer followed by any one. It is only of historical interest.

Maximum translations are available in German. The German Indologists were the first to translate the Vedas.

Literal translations of the entire Veda has been done into English. Unfortunately even when it is priced only at Rs. 5/- per Veda there are very few takers. So translations into other languages are not worth the effort. You can get these translations in Giri Trading Co., Mylapore, Chennai.

So Vedas have been available for any one who is interested. About recitation please see the thread Oral tradition of the Vedas.

Bible and the Vedas belong to different genres of religious texts. Thus they are not comparable.

 

[s007bala]

re

So, if gods could consider a chandala as Brahman by virtue, then, why we couldnt follow the same.. Of the 350Mn untouchable Hindus, still we couldnt find one to be elevated as Brahmana. Do you think all the 350Mn untouchables dont have virtue.. why? What could be the root cause of this..

Lord Jesus Christ never preached about catholic or protestant or methodist or .......etc Proph.Mohd never preached about shia or sunni or wahhabhi or....etc ,yet humanity divided itself on what basis?in those two religions?so,discrimination is also part of human nature and by reading scriptures or works of avatars,one becomes closer to god.

we all are divine,that is our very nature.but a part of us has an asuric nature too.to suppress this evil nature within us is the 'fight' to attain moksham and escape from 'karma' from repeated birth & death,as per sanathana dharma sampradayas.

the chandala=was mainly became untouchable by virtue of unhygenic conditions in his living style.the stink that humans emit by being unclean led them to a untouchable.the religious spin given was only to make them clean physical as well as spiritually.it was a show or a sales gimmick to become spiritually clean.but,i agree in india things went overboard with past generations regarding untouchables,just as we have white/black divide in western cultures covertly now.

sb

 

[malgova.mango]

bala!
pesam neenga vedham solleerukkalam!

nalla karpanai vallam


sesh!

vyeshti, samashti is everywhere - in karma too there is individual and collective karma.

a group can also do one karma - which can bring them the effect - what?

Like war.. it is definetly a group karma , nowadays wars only brings bad karma. if fought with rules of dharma it can bring positive karma.

red-cross is a group karma with positive effect.

vedic chanting by a group is good karma with positive effect.

why shouldn't there be a collective karma?

a flock of birds flying is an effect of group karma same goes to a school of fish swimming.

regards

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

i think you have not understood the intent behind karma and athma...

there are various meanings of the sanskrit word "karma"; the karma which we are discussing here is the karma of birth and rebirth... not the karma of "birds flying as a flock" - that is merely a group action...

the karma under discussion is something that affects the sub-consciousness and through it, the athma...

consider this:

i walk 10 kilometres continuously, and my muscles exert an effort "x"

now, i walk 10 kilometres, with 10 other people, still my muscles exert the same effort "x"...

this is just an analogy of karma... even if you do group pujas and prarthanas, karma fixes only on the individual... the action of puja is collective, but the concentration of one's mind is an individual process...

there is no collective karma...

 

[s007bala]

mm,

bala!
pesam neenga vedham solleerukkalam!

nalla karpanai vallam

did not understand?but group karma again gets consolidated to an individual karma.for example when a air-plane crashes,its the captain or pilot karma which overrides the passengers,as he is in charge.similiarly when bad events happen at a particular time,we ought to trace it to the leader of the nation or community or tribe or clan or group .....etc

sb

 

[malgova.mango]

sesh!

war is a group karma -

we also idenify a group as like an individual and comment iraq suffers, india is corrupt, US is arrogant, japanese are workaholic...like that.

we personify the group as vyeshti.

a gang of people can rob and get to go to jail. - of course leader , follower are there in any group. but we can identify that group did some action which either brings them reward or punishment. - this is caled collective karma - or samsahti

there is one deva rahsyam based on this .... vyeshti , samashti..

flock of bird flying is an effect or result not an action that induces any result.

 

[malgova.mango]

bala!

unga post 440 - last para'kku reply.

regards

 

[malgova.mango]

sesh!

ofcourse a group is dependent on individuals so the karmic effect goes to individuals ...

regards

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

sesh!

war is a group karma -

we also idenify a group as like an individual and comment iraq suffers, india is corrupt, US is arrogant, japanese are workaholic...like that.

we personify the group as vyeshti.

a gang of people can rob and get to go to jail. - of course leader , follower are there in any group. but we can identify that group did some action which either brings them reward or punishment. - this is caled collective karma - or samsahti

there is one deva rahsyam based on this .... vyeshti , samashti..

flock of bird flying is an effect or result not an action that induces any result.

war is yuddham... if it is dharmic, it is dharma yuddham and adharma yuddham otherwise... it cannot and will not be group karma... just so the actions are performed as a group does not mean that karma also devolves collectively...

a gang robs a bank - some manage to escape adn some get caught... it may so happen that the one who escapes does not get caught at all! so group karma logic is not correct... even though, an individual escapes, his inner mind is aware of his guilt, not because he performed and adharmic act as a group, but of his adharmic actions alone... and thus it is individual karma...

vyeshti and samashti are used to refer train of thoughts (or rather axis of thought), not karma...

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

sesh!

ofcourse a group is dependent on individuals so the karmic effect goes to individuals ...

regards

dependency does not devolve karma... it is the self alone which is the decider/doer... and hence karma is always to the self...

 

[malgova.mango]

a group can act and reap the result collectively...

 

[malgova.mango]

there is a group self - do you know that

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

An event of large geographical magnitude could possible consume both good athmas as well as bad athmas... interpolating this to mean that the very same group could have had performed same bad karmic deeds together as a group is mere imagination...