Worshipping while Menstruating: What's wrong in it?

[Raji Ram]

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Dear Renu,

Of course most of the weddings are fixed many months earlier but they DO confirm that it will not be the possible 'dates' for the bride.

Sometimes, finding such dates will be difficult. Then the girls postpone the time of periods by a few days, till they finish a few temple

visits, which follow the wedding. So far, I have not heard of any girl getting married with her 'periods', even if the wedding is in a hall.

P.S: If tambrams wish to enter the temple with periods, let them convert as Sikhs!

 

[renuka]

P.S: If tambrams wish to enter the temple with periods, let them convert as Sikhs!

Then we can all have a Big Fat Punjabi Wedding!LOL

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear prasadji,

We do not need laws to change to abolish barbaric practices. We should be mature enough to accommodate the updated norms.

If it is a really barbaric practice, yes.

You might have reason to practice some traditions (I have read your explanation of Aswamedha Yagna), it does not mean that is the only explanation. I have seen TB's doing yagams where Animal sacrifice was performed in 20th century. I think it was just an excuse to eat goat (Or may be ignorance). You might have convinced yourself that we Hindus were and are the pious people, and our traditions are sanctioned by our scriptures. I am not convinced of that theory. So we might have differing standards.

I am aware that there can be differing interpretations of a certain practice. The purpose of coming here to post the view (only the view) is to add to the knowledge. Either you get your validations here or the reason for rethinking on what you hold on to.

I generally do not argue a point with you as you are highly qualified poster. I may not agree with your views sometimes, and some other times it is beyond my pay grade to understand you.

I am sad. When someone comes and tells me that I am intimidating, in so many nice words, I search for words to express my reaction and I find none.

When Morarji Desai then PM of India visited UK, and was explaining the tradition of drinking one's own urine, I was not bemused.

That was a recognized Ayurvedic practice and "you were not amused". LOL.

If one has nasty tradition of torturing one's wife and children, they should stay away from western world. Or They might arrest that person for domestic violence. Then the "traditions" will not save that person.

The Western World has not covered itself with glory when it comes to real respect for female gender. In today's TOI I saw a photo of a western woman carrying a banner screaming "Keep Your Rosaries off my Ovaries".

I am pretty sure you are not one to follow every superstitions, like some one member here proclaims. I am sure that if your child is bitten by a cobra, you will try to get the best medical help you can get, instead of prayers like this member suggested. That is where "rubber meets the road", a true test of "traditions" and modernist.

Well. I am neither superstitious nor am I burning with revolutionary fervour which would keep me simmering always - either at some real or perceived tradition. Who told you that prayers are useless and anti-venom injection is always very effective? As I said I am neither superstitious nor an armchair revolutionary but a practical individual-I will give first aid by sucking the poison away, will pray all the while for the life of the victim and rush emergency medical aid to the person. Hope you get where I stand.

 

[sarang]

How many wives, daughters, and other female member from the families of the 'right to enter advocates' want to defy and visit temples? Marriage is now a social function, religious ritual restricted to parents. My wife and daughter do not go to temple and keep away from their daily puja routine, on their own.

I can safely believe that majority do follow these customs.

 

[prasad1]

P.S: If tambrams wish to enter the temple with periods, let them convert as Sikhs!

Rajiji please don't give ideas to the men. Should we have a sniff test at the entrance to Temples?

We should practice OUR personal belief, we should not force OUR belief on others.
Tiruvaḷḷuvar says: Why does a man inflict upon other creatures those sufferings, which he has found by experience are sufferings to himself (K. 318) Let not a man consent to do those things to another which, he knows, will cause sorrow.

 

[prasad1]

Well. I am neither superstitious nor am I burning with revolutionary fervour which would keep me simmering always - either at some real or perceived tradition. Who told you that prayers are useless and anti-venom injection is always very effective? As I said I am neither superstitious nor an armchair revolutionary but a practical individual-I will give first aid by sucking the poison away, will pray all the while for the life of the victim and rush emergency medical aid to the person. Hope you get where I stand.

In the past, it was thought that sucking as much of the venom out of the bite before it reaches the bloodstream would be beneficial. This is not true. A study published in the New England Journal of Medicine* in 2002 disproved that theory. The snake venom enters the blood stream too quickly to be sucked out effectively. Secondly, enormous amounts of bacteria live in our mouths, so attempting to suck out the venom may introduce bacteria into the wound.
The best treatment for a snake bite is your cell phone. Call 911 for help right away.


Barry S. Gold, M.D., Richard C. Dart, M.D., Ph.D., and Robert A. Barish, M.D.


N Engl J Med 2002; 347:347-356August 1, 2002
http://www.piedmontwebdev.org/piedmontbraintumorcenter/?p=537

 

[tks]

I have heard from anaecdotes of girls and women living in close toegther that their cycles get synchronized. There are many women that strongly believe that someone in a group is somehow becomes more dominant and everyone aligns their cycles with that woman (as in a dorm/hostel scenario where they tend to live in close quarters).

Based on anecdotes it seems this phenomena if it exists is not well understood. There are times when such a effect is absent also.

There was a study of this done in 1971 and a paper was published in Nature about this synchronization effect. Later others tried to prove it is a myth. Here is but one reference from Scientific American

Do Women Who Live Together Menstruate Together? - Scientific American


I have not cared to follow up on what if any conditions exist for such a synchronization effect to take place. I know many that are convinced about such an effect based on their own personal experience.

If this kind of action at a distance can take place it has not been studied widely.

Temple is a public place where many men and women come to pray. I am not sure if it is mean mindendness and over protectivelness of men that gave rise to this tradition of preventing menturating women from going to temples during their period.

Or if the tradition evolved due to some effects observed of this action at a distance which may have other adverse effects beyond synchronization.

Just like Masters and Johnson did detailed study of human sexual functions it may be useful for the some researcher to take up the study of women's period and the possible effect on others in public setting. Even to categorically disprove the myth is useful. However such areas rarely get funding.

It may not be a 'all or nothing' outcome. There may be specific conditions that can result in synchronization supporting the anecdotes.

 

[prasad1]

The Western World has not covered itself with glory when it comes to real respect for female gender. In today's TOI I saw a photo of a western woman carrying a banner screaming "Keep Your Rosaries off my Ovaries".

I know you are a man but surely you know the difference between abortion and mensuration.
The western women protesting is against the reproduction rights, not "impure" image created by men for women during these periods.
That to too trying to separate women from her god.

 

[Raji Ram]

1. Rajiji please don't give ideas to the men. Should we have a sniff test at the entrance to Temples?

2. We should practice OUR personal belief, we should not force OUR belief on others. ..........

Dear Prasad Sir,

1. Worry not! I won't give such ideas as you have mentioned!

2. I too tell the same, Sir. If you believe that women can pray with periods, you may follow it in your sweet home.

Please don't extend your new ideas to the public places like the temples!

P.S: I take music classes when my students have their periods. But I don't advise them to visit temples at that time!

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear prasadji,

I give up.

You can take your womenfolk in the family to the temple even if they are menstruating if that gives you satisfaction. No one, least of all I, can prevent you from doing that. God bless you.

As for snake venom first aid. I hail from a small village, from an agriculturist family. In my village for snake venom every young boy is instructed that he should suck out the venom from the twin fang marks after first putting in place a tourniquet as soon as possible to prevent the full quantity of venom injected getting into the bloodstream. Some time the cobra which bites has less venom in its venom bags and some times it is full depending what it did just before attacking the human being. There is a time lapse between the venom getting emptied and the venom getting recharged. If you get bitten when there is less venom in store inside the bags, the chances of survival is better. Sucking out blood is a standard practice followed in first aid. Whatever the british journal may say this practice will continue in the distant villages as it is found to be effective and logical. The lethal quantity of venom depends on a few important factors.

A caution is sounded about sucking not because we have a million bacteria in our mouth-because these million bacterias can not do as much damage as the snake venom-but because we may have blisters or open wounds, bleeding gums etc.,in the mouth, which means we have openings into which the poison may ingress, and the saviour may ultimately become the victim in no time. For this reason the boys are usually told not to suck poison and spit it out if they are not sure about the condition of their mouth. Bacterias can be dealt with but not venom after it gets into the bloodstream.

 

[prasad1]

Tksji,

The tradition of men trying to control women is common in mammals, and nothing new.
In the case of TB, the boys raised by these people stuck in the past are the reason they are not able to get married. These boys are not able to break off the shackles imposed by their parents. No modern girl is going to be subjugated by such ancient views.

 

[prasad1]

A caution is sounded about sucking not because we have a million bacteria in our mouth-because these million bacterias can not do as much damage as the snake venom-but because we may have blisters or open wounds, bleeding gums etc.,in the mouth, which means we have openings into which the poison may ingress, and the saviour may ultimately become the victim in no time. For this reason the boys are usually told not to suck poison and spit it out if they are not sure about the condition of their mouth. Bacterias can be dealt with but not venom after it gets into the bloodstream.

Snakebite Treatment: First Aid Information for Snakebite

If the snake was venomous, the person will be given anti-venom treatment.
A tetanus shot may be given, depending on date of last injection.

Snakebite Causes, Symptoms, Treatment - Snakebite Diagnosis - eMedicineHealth

The most common symptoms of all snakebites are overwhelming fear, which may cause symptoms such as nausea and vomiting, diarrhea, vertigo, fainting, tachycardia, and cold, clammy skin. Television, literature, and folklore are in part responsible for the hype surrounding snakebites, and people may have unwarranted thoughts of imminent death.


Dry snakebites, and those inflicted by a non-venomous species, can still cause severe injury. There are several reasons for this: a snakebite may become infected with the snake's saliva and fangs sometimes harboring pathogenic microbial organisms, including Clostridium tetani. Infection is often reported with viper bites whose fangs are capable of deep puncture wounds. Bites may cause anaphylaxis in certain people.

In such cases the bite and suck is going to cause more harm, than it being left alone.

I am worried that "educated" people are recommending such out dated and useless remedies. Please read up the available literatures, in this day and age of information India has the highest mortality due to snake bites (and ignorance).

Sucking out venom, either by mouth or with a pump, does not work and may harm the affected area directly. Suction started after 3 minutes removes a clinically insignificant quantity—less than one thousandth of the venom injected—as shown in a human study. In a study with pigs, suction not only caused no improvement but led to necrosis in the suctioned area. Suctioning by mouth presents a risk of further poisoning through the mouth's mucous tissues. The well-meaning family member or friend may also release bacteria into the persons wound, leading to infection.
Snakebite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Million Death Study puts it in a nutshell: “Snakebite remains an underestimated cause of accidental death in modern India. Community education, appropriate training of medical staff and better distribution of antivenom, especially to the 13 states with the highest prevalence, could reduce snakebite deaths in India.”

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/health/in-search-of-a-cure/article3588735.ece

 

[Vaagmi]

In such cases the bite and suck is going to cause more harm, than it being left alone.

In villages having vast stretches of paddy fields the snake bite occurs very often deep inside these stretches of fields. Even to reach the nearest shade will take a good half an hour of running along the boundaries (varappu) of fields. After a snake bite it is advised not to run as the running will take the poison straight to your brain fast. Time is the essence and a quick tourniquet and a suck and spit is found to be life saving. The victim is not inside a AC room from which advices are given. He is there in the paddy field and qualified medical help is far away-adequately far away not to be helpful in saving the life.

I am worried that "educated" people are recommending such out dated and useless remedies. Please read up the available literatures, in this day and age of information India has the highest mortality due to snake bites (and ignorance)

This is the problem with arm-chair advisors. Please read the previous paragraph to understand the situation when the snake bite occurs most of the time. It does not occur in the city malls. Many of the district or block primary health centres do not have vials anti venom serum readily stocked because of severe powercut. The suck and spit works wonderfully well as I have seen myself. There is no ignorance on the part of the village folk. If there is any ignorance it is there only in the minds of arm-chair experts sitting in their AC rooms in large cities. They are far removed from reality to be of any use and spend time only in reading british journals.

Sucking out venom, either by mouth or with a pump, does not work and may harm the affected area directly. Suction started after 3 minutes removes a clinically insignificant quantity—less than one thousandth of the venom injected—as shown in a human study.

The problem is that the cases can not be just text-book cases when it comes to practical life. I know a boy who got bitten by a cobra in the leg sucking out the blood and spitting it away himself within the golden moments. He made a smart choice and lived to speak about that. So human studies speak only part of the story not the full story.

In a study with pigs, suction not only caused no improvement but led to necrosis in the suctioned area. Suctioning by mouth presents a risk of further poisoning through the mouth's mucous tissues.

no more comments on this.

The well-meaning family member or friend may also release bacteria into the persons wound, leading to infection.

Infection is manageable but not venom acting fast on the very constitution of the human blood. The lesser evil is chosen when cornered.

 

[prasad1]

Just because medical treatment is not available at the site of accidents, should be just be sitting on our hands? Thankfully medical treatments are readily available in most of the urban areas (it might cost). So your treatment for those who can not get treatment it is "ram Bharose". A sure prescription of a defeatist.

There are more pragmatic people who are optimistically trying to improve the conditions of Indian,

Enough said. :focus::focus:

 

[prasad1]

Infection is manageable but not venom acting fast on the very constitution of the human blood. The lesser evil is chosen when cornered.

It was not needed, and useless anyway to begin with. So instead of curing a non existing problem, you have created a life threatening infection, Thanks but no thanks.

 

[tks]

Tksji,

The tradition of men trying to control women is common in mammals, and nothing new.
In the case of TB, the boys raised by these people stuck in the past are the reason they are not able to get married. These boys are not able to break off the shackles imposed by their parents. No modern girl is going to be subjugated by such ancient views.

When *averaged* over time (lasting many generations) I do not think it is possible for any one gender to have sustained advantage and control over opposite gender when in the manifestation/creation the genders are equal in power but different in function. There is interdependence between genders which is the basis for life.

When people try to use their power to deal with this equal power there are consequences whereby nature forces adjustments.

For example 20 some years ago (and even today) many were aborting girl fetus once the gender of a baby is determined. It is now resulting in this imbalance between number of boys and girls. Many otherwise eligible men will not be able to find women for marriage in today's world in many sections of India.

It is not that the boys of today are unable to escape the shackles of their parents which may be true here and there but the issue is due to a larger mega trend of scarcity of girls. In fact in today's world the modern girl is not only asserting her views, she knows her power by and large due to this scarcity. If the girl gender overplays their hand there will be another correction in nature.

The women control is more subtle even in oppressed societies.

In modern civilization men may make more money for same type of work which is discriminatory but most spending decisions are made by women (and the ad industry knows this well).

It is not about perfect equality which is a notion only in a human mind. But it is equal but different power with strong interdependence that binds the genders.

Anyway on the topic of this thread I tend to think it is worth real research into effect of menstruating women on other women and prove or disprove the synchronization experience of few. If there is any truth here then there may be a basis for tradition of not encouraging menstruating women in public gathering areas. Again my point is not to keep or uphold any tradition but we cant criticize without due process of inquiry. Armed with right data it is possible to come up with a right approach in modern days where both genders have to be at public places.

In today's societies, priorities of research are decided by men who do not advocate and require female specific studies. Even in drug testing involving human trials often women subjects are not included in statistically significant numbers. All this have to change for a more stable society

 

[sarang]

First aid must be given whether 118 is available, accessible and responsive are not. First aid must be taught to all as part of the curriculum or through workshops. All poisonous snake bites are not fatal for reasons given by vaagmi. Emergency first aid resuccication, stopping bleeding, do save lives.
Anti venom serum is also not available in many hospitals.
US vasis must learn first aid for gun shot wounds, as everyday there is a report of shooting in schools and malls. July 4th day long shooting spree in Chicago is a pointer of things to come.
Restricting blood flow and sipping out the poison is a valid procedure, and recommended by Indians.

 

[prasad1]

AS usual, to show your superiority you have cut down others standing tall.
Instead of raising your performance, you would want to kill the person who came first. Other than that there is no point of posting about gun shot in USA.
Fourteen Most Common First Aid Myths

Drug store snake bite kits want you to slice into a newly bitten victim and remove the poison by sucking it out. It doesn't work. It's not like the venom just sits in the wound, waiting for you to remove it with a two-cent plastic syringe. Sucking it out with your mouth is even worse - the snake will just get a two-for-one special that way.

If it was up to some simple people, they would suggest band aid for a gushing wound, then again, they are beyond help.

 

[renuka]

I have a question here..there is a medical condition very common in males call ano rectal fistula..remember even Adi Shankara got this becos of black magic done by Navagupta.

Ok in this condition the person has small amounts of blood and fecal discharge from a fistula near the anus.A fistula is like an opening.

As we know it was Padmapadha a Shisya of Adi Shankara who used to wash Shankara's blood and fecal stained clothes on daily basis.

As far as I know Shankara was still going about his routine work daily and that never rendered him impure.

So same way..if any man has ano rectal fistula and enters a temple..is he considered Pure or Impure?

You see whatever said and done..blood is blood and here there is even fecal matter.So what is the diagnosis??? Any idea?? Pure or Impure?

 

[sarang]

Some vetals never learn. Back to top of murungai madam. Can't they write posts without 'tu, tum' pointers. Then run crying to moderator with wounded ego.

 

[tbs]

hi

i think....christian gals/sikh gals are allowed in their respective churches/gurudwaras during those 2 days...

 

[sarang]

1. Subtle differences. In one case blood is voluntarily rejected by the body as a sort of purification, in preparation for next cycle. Blood getting out because of other causes say cuts, disease etc fall under different category.
2. For Hindus, every act or action has physical and spiritual contents, the latter depending on shastric, cultural, traditional, sectorian considerations. Such traditions may apply to all or followed by all. But communities and institutions which follow and demand adherence must be allowed.
3. Since no one has responded that his female family members defy openly, visit temples and participate in puja activities, it is safe to assume that it is not done by some!
4. Nowhere shankarachaya has said that one must act against shastras. His interpretation is accepted by his followers. It is not necessary to drag his name for things he never did. Tradion and culture have several sources.

I have a question here..there is a medical condition very common in males call ano rectal fistula..remember even Adi Shankara got this becos of black magic done by Navagupta.

Ok in this condition the person has small amounts of blood and fecal discharge from a fistula near the anus.A fistula is like an opening.

As we know it was Padmapadha a Shisya of Adi Shankara who used to wash Shankara's blood and fecal stained clothes on daily basis.

As far as I know Shankara was still going about his routine work daily and that never rendered him impure.

So same way..if any man has ano rectal fistula and enters a temple..is he considered Pure or Impure?

You see whatever said and done..blood is blood and here there is even fecal matter.So what is the diagnosis??? Any idea?? Pure or Impure?

 

[krish44]

Rajiji please don't give ideas to the men. Should we have a sniff test at the entrance to Temples?We should practice OUR personal belief, we should not force OUR belief on others.Tiruvaḷḷuvar says: Why does a man inflict upon other creatures those sufferings, which he has found by experience are sufferings to himself (K. 318) Let not a man consent to do those things to another which, he knows, will cause sorrow.

in some railway stations people have to stand in general Q to do credit card bookings though there is a separate counter for it. their logic , credit card holders should not get undue advantage. they also have to suffer standing in long Q .railways can learn from tiruvalluvar

 

[sarang]

Who uses the credit card counter? Is it always free from queue?
Perhaps only that counter had card reader when the service was started. Now all counters may be equipped. Or credit card queue was very small or very large. Sensible decision is to combine all queues.

in some railway stations people have to stand in general Q to do credit card bookings though there is a separate counter for it. their logic , credit card holders should not get undue advantage. they also have to suffer standing in long Q .railways can learn from tiruvalluvar

 

[renuka]

1. Subtle differences. In one case blood is voluntarily rejected by the body as a sort of purification, in preparation for next cycle. Blood getting out because of other causes say cuts, disease etc fall under different category.
2. For Hindus, every act or action has physical and spiritual contents, the latter depending on shastric, cultural, traditional, sectorian considerations. Such traditions may apply to all or followed by all. But communities and institutions which follow and demand adherence must be allowed.
3. Since no one has responded that his female family members defy openly, visit temples and participate in puja activities, it is safe to assume that it is not done by some!
4. Nowhere shankarachaya has said that one must act against shastras. His interpretation is accepted by his followers. It is not necessary to drag his name for things he never did. Tradion and culture have several sources.

BTW I am not dragging Shankaras name here..I was giving an example of an ano rectal fistula and the scenario that He still went about His normal duties.

Now coming back to the topic..blood of menstruation is Physiological and Blood from an Ano Rectal Fistula is Pathological..what are the rules of Pathological forms of blood when it comes to Purity and temple entry? Can you kindly be specific.

Islam is very specific about this..in fact a seeping wound which has blood and pus even on a male renders him impure for prayer cos before prayer the whole body needs to be washed clean and with a wound full cleanliness cant be achieved so he is impure to pray and no entry into prayer hall or mosque.

I used to think Ok may be others religions focus too much on outward reasons and seldom focus much inward and was under the impression that Hinduism is more logic based but I am yet to see evidence for Hinduism being logic based these days.

Over to you.