Yet another failed marriage

[tks]

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Dear Shri TKS,

A certain school of thought could be sound in principle but not so the way it is practiced. The intention of creating marriage is based on sound principles , ones which seek to promote concord in the relationship with one's life partner and hence concord in society. Since families are the building blocks of a society, this has implications thus for not only the persons involved in the marriage but for the society at large. So if the family is not strong and breaks frequently, so will the society sooner or later.

I accept there have been unintended and harmful consequences that have spun out of this practice of life time commitment. But imo these are something which can be addressed as the problems are more at the surface than something really deep. I am sure one who genuinely believes in the philosophy of marriage will be open to and correct any malapplications of the concept.

But look at the alternatives you have ? like the live-in and similar concepts. As I said these are not equipped to serve as the building blocks of society. They do not really foster unity or the practice of really accommodating each other. Why do you want to shun from the task of setting things right which can be set right and instead go for new alternatives?

imo the practice of marriage needs support now than ever before because there are so many divisive forces operating now than ever. The same can be said of such practices which are aimed at unity and stability and they are something that needs to be protected given such divisive forces.

Dear Sri Sravana -

First of all I am not making any points about promoting false choices you are alluding to like 'live in arrangement'.

Best way to advocate a principle is to live it. Marriage as an institution is fine but there are unintended and severe consequences if someone uses that status to pass judgement. Often this happens because of ignorance.

When you say in your post above: "Why do you want to shun from the task of setting things right which can be set right and instead go for new alternatives?" I am not sure I understand what actions you want to do.

What do you plan to do with people who are widows, those whose spouse abuses their partner seriously, those whose partner have run away, those that are born gay, those that were raped and became pregnant etc ..Do you advocate marriage for Gay people for example since the harmony and other ideas you talk about has nothing to with gender.

There are so many children around the world that are starving for food and affection. Would you advocate family unity and help promote adoption of these children by gay couples?

Affluence and choices offered by modern lifestyle creates opportunities for divorce. India's divorce rate will continue to skyrocket as affluence and choices increase.

I would say as action focus on principles that created the concept of vedic marriage - one does not even have to be a Hindu to practice those values such as principles of keeping commitments, doing one's duty etc . The theology in most religions including those practiced in India often go against universal principles leading to judgement of others with action.

Anytime a judgement is made about others - often done without understanding their situations - there is only bad consequences for all concerned.

While universal principles apply on us all the time and our best course is to be aligned with them for our growth. But many human created ideas are not so black and white.

Education is the best way for preventing divorces and that requires aspirants to take time to properly understand the universal principles taught in our scriptures. This requires a life time of commitment and then one can gain the knowledge to teach and interpret for others.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sri Sravana -

When you say in your post above: "Why do you want to shun from the task of setting things right which can be set right and instead go for new alternatives?" I am not sure I understand what actions you want to do.

What do you plan to do with people who are widows, those whose spouse abuses their partner seriously, those whose partner have run away, those that are born gay, those that were raped and became pregnant etc ..Do you advocate marriage for Gay people for example since the harmony and other ideas you talk about has nothing to with gender.

There are so many children around the world that are starving for food and affection. Would you advocate family unity and help promote adoption of these children by gay couples?

Affluence and choices offered by modern lifestyle creates opportunities for divorce. India's divorce rate will continue to skyrocket as affluence and choices increase.

Dear Shri TKS,

I agree with much of what you say in your post. I would however like to comment on the above. The people who are widows, those whose spouse abuses their partner seriously, those whose partner have run away, those that are born gay, those that were raped and became pregnant etc did not break the marriage out of their own volition. Shri TKS I am not advocating a rigid and ruthless practice which doesn't take into account situations such as the above. My whole opposition is towards making the idea of marriage on par with practices that don't honor commitment. We should not start a marriage with the notion that there need not be commitment involved on the part of the partners. That is my point.

 

[zebra16]

The term used for "marriage" in the typical Tabra invitation மஞ்சள் பத்திரிகை, as it is called, is
விவாஹ (vivāha). This word means "carrying (off) in a special way" (viśeṣeṇa vāhayati iti) and is a reminder of those very early tribal times when people of one tribe used to attack another tribe and steal away cattle (cattle rustling) and also forcibly carry away girls and marry them to eligible young men in their (attacking tribe's) own hamlet.

Sir,

Would you be kind enough to furnish the source of the etymology of vivaha as "viSesena vAhayaati iti)?

As I understand from another source, vivaha is split as:

वि = विपर्यासेन + वह = प्रापणे = नयने - + घञ् - विवाहः।

विवाहो नाम परस्परविपर्यासेन(विपर्ययेन) संबन्धप्रापणम्। तथा हि - वरस्य पिता स्वपुत्रं कन्यापितुर्जामातृत्वेन संबन्धयति, कन्यापिता च स्वपुत्रीं वरपितुः स्नुषात्वेन संबन्धयति। तदिदं विपर्यासेन सम्बन्धनयनं विवाहः।

This is the etymlogy reported to have been given in Aitheraya brAhmaNam

 

[raviayyar19]

why do you always suspect that the girl is on the wrong side? it is purely gender bias. The girl would not have gone alone to USA if she was on the wrong side.

 

[P.J.]

Sri SANDHYAV Sir

Just to debate the opposite.

Marriage ceremony is a business, has got nothing to with future prospects of the couple ( extreme version ). the sentence can be toned down significantly. If the couple is floating around migrating, this ceremony is baseless.

In Tamil the misuse of the proverb " ayiram poi solli oru thirumanam pannunga " is widely prevalent now a days. Parents do not disclose defects in siblings.

society will have lifestyle and work style. the life style of a couple will depend on the economic status and societal back up. present day society has enough back up for all and sundry.

" ayiram poi solli oru thirumanam pannunga" has come from "Ayiram peridam Poi Solli" meaning telling many people about the availability of a boy or girl for an alliance; it is not telling 1000 lies.
Heard it in some Patti Mandram debate

 

[sangom]

Instead of looking at marriage (any type of marriage, I mean, hindu, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Parsi and so on) as something "sacred" ab initio or even before, if only we make ourselves more factual and reasonable and consider marriage in its temporal settings, marriage is licence for an adult man & woman, to have sexual enjoyment with/through/by each other, if necessary for a life time. Society and the common laws of most countries look upon such a licence as mandatory and without such a licence, it becomes a crime (may be casual or occasional sex is not frowned upon in some countries). When we look at marriage in this light, we are able to see divorces, widows and widowers etc., in a more natural light - just like any man or woman who lost the job or was kicked out by the employer, for such people we don't attach any stigma, you see. Only if the society starts looking at marriage in this way, I think many of the atrocities which now happen relating to marriage, will end in India.

Commercial Sex Workers (CSW) (by which term we still predominantly refer to females, and rarely to males in the same profession), is also a salutary aspect for society as a whole, I think. If only many of our teen-aged girls and boys have experience of what sex is, before they decide to marry, they will be more objective in choosing a life-time partner, imo. Living-in arrangements of today serve as the best alternative here, because the CSW is not free from the dangers of AIDS and other diseases.

As and when the living-in arrangement gives rise to a number of children to be born - unwantedly or intentionally - our legislative bodies will enact suitable laws to take care of such children. I think these are some of the future developments which our society, marriages, etc., will experience in the not so distant future.

 

[sangom]

Sir,

Would you be kind enough to furnish the source of the etymology of vivaha as "viSesena vAhayaati iti)?

As I understand from another source, vivaha is split as:

वि = विपर्यासेन + वह = प्रापणे = नयने - + घञ् - विवाहः।

विवाहो नाम परस्परविपर्यासेन(विपर्ययेन) संबन्धप्रापणम्। तथा हि - वरस्य पिता स्वपुत्रं कन्यापितुर्जामातृत्वेन संबन्धयति, कन्यापिता च स्वपुत्रीं वरपितुः स्नुषात्वेन संबन्धयति। तदिदं विपर्यासेन सम्बन्धनयनं विवाहः।

This is the etymlogy reported to have been given in Aitheraya brAhmaNam

I have depended on the meaning given by Agnihotram Ramanuja Thathachariar in his book "சடங்குகளின் கதை". I give below the relevant excerpt:—

விவாஹம் என்ற சொல்லுக்கு நாம் என்ன அர்த்தம் பார்த்தோம். தூக்கிக்கொண்டு ஓடுதல் என்பது. அதாவது அந்தக் காலத்தில் மனதுக்குப் பிடித்தவளை தூக்கிக்கொண்டு ஓடுதல் தான் விவாஹத்தின் ஆரம்பம். விவாஹம் என்ற சொல்லே தூக்கிகொண்டு ஓடுவது தான். அதற்க்குப் பிறகு வேதங்கள் மந்திரங்களால் மணமேடை அமைத்தன. அதற்க்கும் பின்னால் சூத்திரக்காரர்கள்...அக்னி வளர்த்து அதில் மேலும் பல சடங்குகளைக் கட்டினார்கள்.

Also, the Monier Monier Williams Sanskrit-English Dictionary gives the following :

vi-vah, cl. I. P. -vahati, -vodhum, to
bear away, remove, carry off, lead away ; to conduct
home, take in marriage, marry: Caus.-vahayati,-yi-
tum, to cause to marry, give in marriage ; to marry.

Vi-vaha, as, m. ' carrying away,' epithet of one
of the seven tongues of fire.

When we talk about the time of the aitareya or other Braahmanas, we must understand that those texts relate to a time when the Vedic Brahmins had already become powerful law-givers and were trying to give their own interpretations for words which had become so entrenched in the memory of the people that it was difficult to erase those words from social memory. Let us note that in this version also, the first step is —

वि = विपर्यासेन + वह and thus the idea underlying the two words वि and वह remain; only thereafter there is some twist. Even if वि = विपर्यासेन is accepted, though this is a very rare interpretation, the next वह being interpreted as प्रापणे = नयने seems to be too much of a stretching. Ironically, प्रापणे also means fleeing.

 

[prasad1]

Instead of looking at marriage (any type of marriage, I mean, hindu, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Parsi and so on) as something "sacred" ab initio or even before, if only we make ourselves more factual and reasonable and consider marriage in its temporal settings, marriage is licence for an adult man & woman, to have sexual enjoyment with/through/by each other, if necessary for a life time. Society and the common laws of most countries look upon such a licence as mandatory and without such a licence, it becomes a crime (may be casual or occasional sex is not frowned upon in some countries). When we look at marriage in this light, we are able to see divorces, widows and widowers etc., in a more natural light - just like any man or woman who lost the job or was kicked out by the employer, for such people we don't attach any stigma, you see. Only if the society starts looking at marriage in this way, I think many of the atrocities which now happen relating to marriage, will end in India.

Commercial Sex Workers (CSW) (by which term we still predominantly refer to females, and rarely to males in the same profession), is also a salutary aspect for society as a whole, I think. If only many of our teen-aged girls and boys have experience of what sex is, before they decide to marry, they will be more objective in choosing a life-time partner, imo. Living-in arrangements of today serve as the best alternative here, because the CSW is not free from the dangers of AIDS and other diseases.

As and when the living-in arrangement gives rise to a number of children to be born - unwantedly or intentionally - our legislative bodies will enact suitable laws to take care of such children. I think these are some of the future developments which our society, marriages, etc., will experience in the not so distant future.

Some times we need to see the norms of society, if the culture is overtaking our perceived values, we need to refocus our values to be in sync with the society. If we stay back in the previous century, we will be the one lamenting.
Accept the present to live in harmony.

 

[tbs]

hi

always have loved agnihothram.....

i think even raghy sir too loved AGNIHOTRAM.....ONCE UPON A TIME....LOL

 

[Amirtha]

With respect to the OP of this thread... I am a father. Recently there was a wedding in our family. We, the parents like to see the youngsters enjoy their life and like to see them getting more and more closer. We will be more than happy to bend backwards to accomodate that.

100% acceptance was not present from our parents during our wedding. We the youngsters took our relationship very seriously. As a husband, I have to say the youngsters mentioned in the OP had not taken the relationship that seriously.

Our youngsters have to understand the seriousness in any relationship including matrimonial. We don't think much about spending few long years to develop a career but even hlf the time is not spent in developing a serious relationship. Most of us may not have liked our career in the beginning but we had perseverance in excelling in such a career.... why can't we apply the same perseverance in every relationship we undertake?

Cheers!

[FONT=&quot]With real love marriages (not the cheating type), the couples know that they wont get any support from the parents so they tend nurture each other. Imo when it comes to arranged marriage, there are few heads to hinder with the youngsters nurturing together. Not so smart or informed youngsters fall into the traps. Instead of gaining relationship they tend to lose it all. Who knows the couple in the op message may already regretting what has happened. [/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Kind Regards[/FONT]

 

[tbs]

hi
generally in arranged marriage ...the relationship between husband and wife for granted.....not very serious in relationship...

its kinda of PERISUGAL too much involvement....in real love marriage...its fully commitment/serious to struggle in family/

community....more maturity in love...then only success will come in marriage.....otherwise in love marriage...

divorce immanent...but in arranged marriage....a lot of advice even in divorce too...

 

[tks]

Dear Shri TKS,

I agree with much of what you say in your post. I would however like to comment on the above. The people who are widows, those whose spouse abuses their partner seriously, those whose partner have run away, those that are born gay, those that were raped and became pregnant etc did not break the marriage out of their own volition. Shri TKS I am not advocating a rigid and ruthless practice which doesn't take into account situations such as the above. My whole opposition is towards making the idea of marriage on par with practices that don't honor commitment. We should not start a marriage with the notion that there need not be commitment involved on the part of the partners. That is my point.

I sense that you are not appreciating the point that other than a small minority that are involved in show business most people do take marriage seriously. Things may not work out any number of reasons but I do not know of anyone from any culture that did not take their marriage vows seriously regardless of how it all turned out.

 

[sravna]

I sense that you are not appreciating the point that other than a small minority that are involved in show business most people do take marriage seriously. Things may not work out any number of reasons but I do not know of anyone from any culture that did not take their marriage vows seriously regardless of how it all turned out.

May be you are right. But I would say that you only have to hear the type of frivolous reasons for which a divorce is filed even in India and that makes you wonder whether such people are really serious?

 

[sravna]

More than any real substance beneath the reasons for divorce, I think it is egos at play. That is the reason they have to be tempered by infusing finer values.

 

[SANDHYAV]

2 years ago. The girl also came to USA after 4months on H4 visa. After 6 months Last month against all advice they sent the girl alone to USA. Iover?

atleast the boy and girl know each other now very well. 6 months they have lived together, and some intermittent contacts for 2 years.

 

[sangom]

More than any real substance beneath the reasons for divorce, I think it is egos at play. That is the reason they have to be tempered by infusing finer values.

I cannot say that I am an authority on the subject of divorces of the present times, but from all the information I have (and this is mostly relating to tabra cases), it appears as though the girls now will not brook any dissent to any of their views, likes/dislikes and preferences, even from the husband. The main reason seems to be the support of law that the females now get, in India. So, at the very slightest disagreement, the newly married wife comes back home or starts staying separately in the city of work itself and then the husband and his parenta and relations understand their folly and start trying to patch up the rift. But in most cases I have not found any real re-union (husband and wife living together again under the same roof). The girls neither come down from their original belligerent mood nor are they prepared to give a divorce. I heard from a lawyer who practices mainly in the Chennai family court that the girl's side want to harass the husband and his people to the maximum extent by not giving the divorce and they also get a larger amount in cash by way of maintenance expenses, irrespective of whether the wife is earning more than the husband. One young man who had such a bad experience lost his job, because he had to borrow huge sums to pay for the maintenance and his employer, a bank, did not allow this. Last info. was that he was virtually in the streets and was thinking of joining some Ashram in Haridwar (Kasi Yaathrai after Kalyaanam!). The marriage lasted only for a few months.

So, it looks to me that eligible boys should be prepared to set apart any ego, male chauvinism etc., which they may have and accept the reality of tabra marriage today; else, they may try other communities or else remain unmarried. Boys' parents should also realize these ground truths if they insist on horoscope, gotram, sub-caste, etc., and are bent upon a pure, un-mixed tabra marriage for their sons. I don't mean to say that exceptions are not there but they are becoming rarer and rarer. But girls from other communities seem to be a little more accommodative may be because in their own communities the males still call the shots.

I will like to know about the views/experiences of other members please.

 

[SANDHYAV]

ANOTHER EXTREME AND OPPOSTITE VIEW POINT!!!Time is important, the young ones cant be waiting for long. Approaching a lawyer is not criminal act. In a court the lawyers say OH MY LORD before every sentence. Atleast the seniors get an idea of the problems ( the main problems written down in 5 sheets of paper ).Assuming they start today, it will take minimum 2 years for the final divorce to come.

 

[tbs]

hi
i think the same situation in all castes/religions too....the reasons.....

1 girls are highly educated than boys.....

2 highly income and working is very common.....

3 any country laws protection for girls than boys.....

4 separation/divorces are commonly accepted in many countries/communities too....

5 girls parents are ready to prepare for lawyer/court cases....................

6 many boys parents are helpless......

7 this is rule of yuga dharma.....

8 no patience/values for family life........

9 sacred things are gone,,,like they called.....மண்ணாகட்டி

10 money/material pleasure are the core value of individual/society....
இது தான் பத்து பொருத்தம் .....

 

[Raghy]

I cannot say that I am an authority on the subject of divorces of the present times, but from all the information I have (and this is mostly relating to tabra cases), it appears as though the girls now will not brook any dissent to any of their views, likes/dislikes and preferences, even from the husband. The main reason seems to be the support of law that the females now get, in India. So, at the very slightest disagreement, the newly married wife comes back home or starts staying separately in the city of work itself and then the husband and his parenta and relations understand their folly and start trying to patch up the rift. But in most cases I have not found any real re-union (husband and wife living together again under the same roof). The girls neither come down from their original belligerent mood nor are they prepared to give a divorce. I heard from a lawyer who practices mainly in the Chennai family court that the girl's side want to harass the husband and his people to the maximum extent by not giving the divorce and they also get a larger amount in cash by way of maintenance expenses, irrespective of whether the wife is earning more than the husband. One young man who had such a bad experience lost his job, because he had to borrow huge sums to pay for the maintenance and his employer, a bank, did not allow this. Last info. was that he was virtually in the streets and was thinking of joining some Ashram in Haridwar (Kasi Yaathrai after Kalyaanam!). The marriage lasted only for a few months.

So, it looks to me that eligible boys should be prepared to set apart any ego, male chauvinism etc., which they may have and accept the reality of tabra marriage today; else, they may try other communities or else remain unmarried. Boys' parents should also realize these ground truths if they insist on horoscope, gotram, sub-caste, etc., and are bent upon a pure, un-mixed tabra marriage for their sons. I don't mean to say that exceptions are not there but they are becoming rarer and rarer. But girls from other communities seem to be a little more accommodative may be because in their own communities the males still call the shots.

I will like to know about the views/experiences of other members please.

Sri. Sangom, Greetings.

time and time again I notice members here lament about the yester years marriage union and comparing them to present unions. But the psyche of the girls are not really taken into consideration. In those days girls werevery young. They did not have much of an exposure to the outside world. Media impact was minimum if not nil.

Presently brides are above 25 years old by the time they consider they/their parents consider marriage. The girl and the parents set the expectations bar some where in the clouds! I remember, my son would not consider if he did not satisfy even one of of the conditions. I tried to tell him such conditions are not that serious.. he said " what if those conditions are very serious? I am not interested if I don't qualify!".. He was right. Often times the girls 'relax' some of the conditions in order to marry Mr. X. There goes Mr.X's edge.

Boys/boys parents don't seriously take in to account the expectations of the girls. For example, at the initial introduction, one stil asks if the bride can sing; if the bride can dance etc. Truth is, everyone can sing, everyone can dance. But if the girls wants the boy to be able to take part in some of the adventure sports; martial arts etc are the boys ready to demonstrate? Can the boys keep the girl charmed? Often times, the boys fail to stay physically fit. That's bad.

Let us face it.. girls are hot and sultry in their 20+ years. So, our hero should be ready to hit the game running. Are the boys up to it?

Boys should really win the girls over. If he fail to win her over, she will not miss him. If she doesn't miss him, then the marriage is already over.

Marriage or any relationship should not be taken for granted. Lastly, ego and/or chauvnism won't help i anyway.

Cheers!

 

[zebra16]

Sri. Sangom, Greetings.


Boys/boys parents don't seriously take in to account the expectations of the girls. For example, at the initial introduction, one stil asks if the bride can sing; if the bride can dance etc. Truth is, everyone can sing, everyone can dance. But if the girls wants the boy to be able to take part in some of the adventure sports; martial arts etc are the boys ready to demonstrate? Can the boys keep the girl charmed? Often times, the boys fail to stay physically fit. That's bad.

A good point.

 

[sangom]

Sri. Sangom, Greetings.

time and time again I notice members here lament about the yester years marriage union and comparing them to present unions. But the psyche of the girls are not really taken into consideration. In those days girls werevery young. They did not have much of an exposure to the outside world. Media impact was minimum if not nil.

Dear Raghy,

I did not intend lamenting about present marriages by comparing them to the earlier days' marriages. If my post gives such a tone, then it is my inadequate language skills.

What I wanted to write (and I hope I am getting it clear this time) is that a lot of changes have come about in our tabra society, and perhaps the eligible boys and their parents/guardians have not become fully aware of those changes.

Presently brides are above 25 years old by the time they consider they/their parents consider marriage. The girl and the parents set the expectations bar some where in the clouds! I remember, my son would not consider if he did not satisfy even one of of the conditions. I tried to tell him such conditions are not that serious.. he said " what if those conditions are very serious? I am not interested if I don't qualify!".. He was right. Often times the girls 'relax' some of the conditions in order to marry Mr. X. There goes Mr.X's edge.

I see no problem here. What boys were doing till some years ago, the girls seem to do. There is nothing wrong if they relax any or even all their conditions because a particular boy is to her liking. Others cannot question this, I feel.

Boys/boys parents don't seriously take in to account the expectations of the girls. For example, at the initial introduction, one stil asks if the bride can sing; if the bride can dance etc. Truth is, everyone can sing, everyone can dance. But if the girls wants the boy to be able to take part in some of the adventure sports; martial arts etc are the boys ready to demonstrate? Can the boys keep the girl charmed? Often times, the boys fail to stay physically fit. That's bad.

AFAIK nowadays the girls/girls' parents do ask many questions and even ask for documentary evidence regarding the boy's emoluments & perks, ownership of flat/house/plot, investments and so on. Before the boy's party goes to the girl's house for introduction, the girl's parents make it crystal clear that they will verify all these aspects. I have known at least two such instances.

Let us face it.. girls are hot and sultry in their 20+ years. So, our hero should be ready to hit the game running. Are the boys up to it?

I am no authority here, but is this a universal truth? I doubt.

Boys should really win the girls over. If he fail to win her over, she will not miss him. If she doesn't miss him, then the marriage is already over.

I will say boys are now required not only to win over the girls but continue to win over her each second/minute of his life. While some boys pass the test, some others don't and this latter group is the problem group. Reasons may be any one more of infinite things. And this is the point which I wanted to bring out.

Marriage or any relationship should not be taken for granted. Lastly, ego and/or chauvnism won't help i anyway.

Cheers!

I agree, but my point is that still there are boys, families which go by the yester-years' standards.

 

[sravna]

The girls it seems are taking somewhat unfair advantage of the present scenario. They should realize that anything other than a balanced outlook is only to their disadvantage.

 

[C RAVI]

hi
i think the same situation in all castes/religions too....the reasons.....

1 girls are highly educated than boys.....

2 highly income and working is very common.....

3 any country laws protection for girls than boys.....

4 separation/divorces are commonly accepted in many countries/communities too....

5 girls parents are ready to prepare for lawyer/court cases....................

6 many boys parents are helpless......

7 this is rule of yuga dharma.....

8 no patience/values for family life........

9 sacred things are gone,,,like they called.....மண்ணாகட்டி

10 money/material pleasure are the core value of individual/society....
இது தான் பத்து பொருத்தம் .....

Exatly!!!!

 

[C RAVI]

The girls it seems are taking somewhat unfair advantage of the present scenario. They should realize that anything other than a balanced outlook is only to their disadvantage.

Absolutely true!!

 

[ozone]

An old one from my archive
[h=5]An old man in Dryden calls up his son in Toronto and says, "Listen, your mother
and I are getting divorced. Forty-five years of misery is enough."

"Dad, what are you talking about?" the son screams.
...
“We can't stand the sight of each other...any longer,” he says. "I'm sick of her face, and I'm sick of talking about this, so call your sister in Vancouver and tell her," and he hangs up.

Now, the son is worried. So he calls up his sister. She says, "Like hell they’re getting divorced!" and calls her father immediately. "You’re not getting divorced! Don't do another thing, the two of us are flying home tomorrow to talk about this. Until then, don't call a lawyer, don't file a paper, DO YOU HEAR ME?” and she hangs up.

The old man turns to his wife and says "Okay, they’re coming for Christmas and paying their own airfares."


[/h]