Yet another failed marriage

[Brahin]

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Dear Sir,

The efficient and learned astrologer's help is sought to find the perfect match for a groom or bride. The astrologer predicts many

aspects about the would be partner, after reading the horoscope thoroughly. I shall tell you just two examples. An efficient astrologer

predicted that one of the grooms in my close family circle will get a very fair partner. But he got a not-so-fair girl as partner. When

we asked the astrologer about this, he said that if the wedding was fixed before the transit of Rahu she would have been a fair girl!

It is said that the partner we get is by our karmA in previous birth and so it should be the one and only person! How can the predicted

'fair girl' become dark by the transit of Rahu? We were totally confused!!

The same astrologer said after reading a girl's horoscope not to proceed with the alliance, because within one year of marriage,

she will get separated from the person she marries. So we did not proceed. Later on we learnt that she got married to someone

from Delhi but came back to her parents within six months! So, should we believe astrology or not??? [/QUOTE Dear Mam I totally agree with u. 90% of astrologers are fooling around with people. They dont know anything & keep on blaming every possible planet expect themself.

 

[amala]

The key word is 'repeatedly' - yes that is subjective ..I do not care to comments about anyone here in the forum..But those who repeatedly talk about such things are more likely than not hypocrites.

Those 'gay bashers' - politicians and preachers turned out to be themselves gay in many instances ..

"The lady doth protest too much, methink" quote summarizes the point

I wonder if one can apply the exact same principle to some repeatedly cattiest of catty posts that one is seeing you know women bashing and one cannot help wondering if these people were probably the same at least once upon a time as the people/gender they are dissing about!

 

[amala]

Ms. Amala,
I am hurt
A
I always make tea, and breakfast for my wife. I also used to prepare lunch for my daughter.
I can and often cook dinner. I make my own chutney and pickles. So i beg your pardon. Cooking is an art, and you got to have interest, secondly you must be very particular about food taste.
It also helps that I have a very supportive wife who can make better food that I.

I fully second Mr. Kunjuppu's point


It is not in our hand.

I didn't include you Sir. I was merely reflecting on my own father because KunjuppuJi's post struck a chord. I think its great and handy that you make chutneys et al.

 

[prasad1]

Dear Sir,

The efficient and learned astrologer's help is sought to find the perfect match for a groom or bride. The astrologer predicts many

aspects about the would be partner, after reading the horoscope thoroughly. I shall tell you just two examples. An efficient astrologer

predicted that one of the grooms in my close family circle will get a very fair partner. But he got a not-so-fair girl as partner. When

we asked the astrologer about this, he said that if the wedding was fixed before the transit of Rahu she would have been a fair girl!

It is said that the partner we get is by our karmA in previous birth and so it should be the one and only person! How can the predicted

'fair girl' become dark by the transit of Rahu? We were totally confused!!

The same astrologer said after reading a girl's horoscope not to proceed with the alliance, because within one year of marriage,

she will get separated from the person she marries. So we did not proceed. Later on we learnt that she got married to someone

from Delhi but came back to her parents within six months! So, should we believe astrology or not??? [/QUOTE Dear Mam I totally agree with u. 90% of astrologers are fooling around with people. They dont know anything & keep on blaming every possible planet expect themself.

Good to see you Mr. Brahin,
You are generous in accepting that 10% are not fooling around. I think in that 10% some are known crooks, and some fools. So all in all there might be very very very small percentage of astrologers who can can predict one in million occurrences correctly.
The whole concept is full of holes.
Without disrespect to any other members here I can say that you believe in any hocus pocus but be aware of it, just as you believe in Santa clause or tooth fairy.

 

[prasad1]

I didn't include you Sir. I was merely reflecting on my own father because KunjuppuJi's post struck a chord. I think its great and handy that you make chutneys et al.

Hey Amala, my "hurt" was in jest.
Just jump across the pond (Atlantic Ocean) and come visit USA, I will make you Dinner any time. LOL

 

[prasad1]

I find that all the above can be ascribed only in association with religious reverence, to the word sacred and not in a mundane way.
The nearest that my understanding of marriage comes to is "a solemn promise to make each other their spouse", and, because the laws applicable to Tabras does not permit polygamy or polyandry as of today, this solemn human promise works to restrict a man/woman from having sexual contact with any other.

But, within this human (and not sacred) contract, I feel that the relationship just does not end as soon as one person dies. It continues till both the persons die and may be it lasts even beyond that, but we are unable to know anything beyond death.

Our so-called "sacred-relationship" lobby's bluff seems to be exposed by their own repeated assertion that all this sacred wish-wash goes off, the very moment one of the spouses throws the head (maṇṭaiyaip poṭuvatu)! That is all the sacredness they find in it, strange!

As regards your post, living with son/daughter and grandchildren in a foreign country is a very sweet dream as long as it is a dream, but it is not that likeable when the dream is translated into actuality. Of course, some people may be lucky to have a "foreign death" just as our forefathers wished for their death in Kasi! Beyond that, all families living abroad, be it son or daughter will feel the old parents/in-laws as a burden only but, depending on their refinement, they may or may not express it to our discomfort. Old parents will be tolerated as long as these old people can at least look after themselves and the grandchildren and be of some "use" but once you are sick or bed-ridden, you are no longer old age but become "garb-age". So, I for one, will not support going and settling on a long-term basis with our children.

I agree with the post, particularly about sacredness of "marriage". The word is getting redefined as we speak.

I know of good number of cases were parents are being taken care of very well by their children even in foreign lands. I personally know of these cases.

Sometimes parents are being abused in India.
I know of a foundation that takes care of abused and neglected parents. I have been to their meetings as my brother is the organizer of his chapter.

 

[suraju06]

Sangom Sir in his post #173 says:

I do not look upon marriage as a "sacred" relationship. Smt. RR has written, in her post # 129 above that the word 'sacred' also means the following :—
a. Made or [COLOR=#DA7911 !important]declared[/COLOR] holy.
b. Dedicated or devoted exclusively to a single person.
c. Worthy of respect; venerable.
But, I find that all the above can be ascribed only in association with religious reverence, to the word sacred and not in a mundane way.

And I say:
a)Marriage is considered sacred because it has been declared holy on the day of marriage. It is not a secret night encounter between a young man and a young woman or a one night cap as an American would call it.

b)Marriage is considered sacred because the husband and wife vow to remain dedicated/devoted just to each other. It is not that you marry some one and live with some one else dedicated/devoted to him.

c)Marriage is considered sacred because it is indeed worthy of respect or venerable. It is the culmination of the yearning of two individuals to come together, live together, beget children and bring up a family-all noble activities.

There is no need to confuse marriage with anything religious(just because it is considered sacred) if it is uncomfortable. Nor is the word 'sacred' reserved exclusively for religion alone.

Our so-called "sacred-relationship" lobby's bluff seems to be exposed by their own repeated assertion that all this sacred wish-wash goes off, the very moment one of the spouses throws the head (maṇṭaiyaip poṭuvatu)! That is all the sacredness they find in it, strange!

The sacredness of the marriage does not die the moment one of the two dies. The 'living together' experience comes to an end. The sacredness of the association remains as long as the marriage does not fail and the couple do not part.

Cheers.

 

[prasad1]

To add to Ms. Raji's definition of the word Sacred

Sacred | Define Sacred at Dictionary.com

sacred  
sa·cred
adjective
1. devoted or dedicated to a deity or to some religious purpose; consecrated.
2. entitled to veneration or religious respect by association with divinity or divine things; holy.
3. pertaining to or connected with religion ( opposed to secular or profane ): sacred music; sacred books.
4.reverently dedicated to some person, purpose, or object: a morning hour sacred to study.
5.regarded with reverence: the sacred memory of a dead hero.
Origin:
1275–1325; Middle English, orig. past participle of sacren to consecrate < Latin sacrāre to devote, derivative of sacer holy;

Synonyms
venerable, divine, holy, consecrated, revered, sacrosanct, inviolate, inviolable.
Antonyms
2. blasphemous.

From this definition it is clear that the term "sacred" is ascribed only in association with religious reverence.

There is no social meaning of this word outside of the religious connotation.
What is sacred in Christianity need not be sacred in Islam.
A civil marriage can be happier, and everlasting too. A religious "marriage" can end in Divorce.

 

[Brahin]

I assume this argument holds for females desiring multiple partners too (perhaps one macho and the other sensitive)?

But then it becomes a communal marriage.

. Dear Biswa why 1 macho & other sensitive. why it cant be 2 in 1....

 

[rishikesan]

Dear All I am cotinually reading what is being written/ discussed on this famous topic. We are all grown up may be more than middle
age with grown up sons/ daughters & even grand children, some of us All of us know the attitude of the boys/ girls / parents looking for alliances & scan Matrimonial sites & the girl decides the boy & rarely boy is able to decide the girl. Parents toe the line.If things happen not as expected we people are discussing Post Marriage causes more confusion in our society for the entire families , let alone to those attended the marriage . A sort of post mortem, it is?
I am 80 years of age A few days back when my 2 young boys ( I am Periappa for them) Separately I
gave a practical way of dealing in search of a girl 1) First time chat nicely & exchange greetings. re-confirm her
qualifications/ place of Job & allied points Then broach about her parents & get to know minimum details. 2) then give a break
, after giving similar details about you voluntarily. 3) inform your parents immediately with your acceptance of photo of the girl.
4) your parents must ensure fixing an appointment with the girls family & meet them without delay. Meanwhile boy has to keep patience,. If the girl talks to him let him also talk , but tell her that , you both can wait till, both parents / families come closer
& ready mentally . for the next step. With their Blessings you both may talk for a couple of days more & give your firm resolve to marry each other. No sooner this confirmation reaches the families would be ready to receive both of you to their place , without giving a gap & formal get together is arranged & marriage is settled with a few of Friends/ relatives This procedure will
avoid the present manner in which both boys & girls go on talking & talking & create a situation of :{ Familiarity breeds contempt level "

Sincerely
A.Srinivasan ( rishikesan)
situation



you both can wait till both families come closer
m also converse & tell about parent level meeting.
et thm without delay.


Post motem it is



.

 

[tks]

I wonder if one can apply the exact same principle to some repeatedly cattiest of catty posts that one is seeing you know women bashing and one cannot help wondering if these people were probably the same at least once upon a time as the people/gender they are dissing about!

Since I have not been following most of the posts I may not be able to think who all tend to display such attitudes in their post. Therefore I can share my feelings about the topic ..

Human beings, because we are endowed with the ability to be self conscious and very dependent when we are born are subjected to feelings of insecurity. While all our sufferings may be attributed to this self security if we are lucky we experience only a 'healthy range of insecurity'.

However there are people who has to put down others in order to feel that they are OK temporarily. That manifests sometimes as hate due to race, gender, caste etc.

Only a truly unfulfilled person will have hateful feelings towards someone because of who they are and how they are born. Then there is another kind of person.

Society today in India especially cannot tolerate the idea of someone who is gay or a 'woman born in a man's body'. There is no avenue for such people - they hide their feelings or bash the very thing they fear in themselves. Their insecurity as a 'girly man' or a 'closeted gay' try to assert their maleness by expressing their hatred towards women..
In a society where they could be more easily accepted they may have avenue and social groups to work with.

All we can do is to recognize that their behavior is a result of their internal suffering and be kind to them !

It is hard to tell who is like that from the posts in a forum since some people assume personas in a medium which provides some level of immediate anonymity.

I am sharing these thoughts in the hope that I am not offending anyone ...

 

[amala]

Thank you TKS Sir for a very measured and thorough explanation. I think you might be on to something about online personas. Some people just simply thrive on being deliberately provocative about every topic...in fact the more reverent the topic the more pleasure in being all the more provocative

 

[suraju06]

Reference Prasad's post #183:

sacred adj. ME(Middle English)

1.dedicated or set apart for the service or worship of deity(a tree **** to the gods)
2. devoted exclusively to one service or use(as of a person or purpose)(a fund **** to charity)
3.worthy of religious veneration
4.entitled to reverence and respect
5.of or relating to religion-not secular or profane (**** music)
6.unassailable, inviolable
7.highly valued and important(a **** responsibility)

 

[Raji Ram]

To add to Ms. Raji's definition of the word Sacred

Sacred | Define Sacred at Dictionary.com ......

Dear Prasad Sir,

In my earlier post to Renu, I gave all the five meanings of the word 'sacred' from another source

sacred - definition of sacred by the Free Online Dictionary ...

sa·cred(s

kr

d)adj.

1. Dedicated to or set apart for the worship of a deity.

2. Worthy of religious veneration: the sacred teachings of the Buddha.

3. Made or declared holy: sacred bread and wine.

4. Dedicated or devoted exclusively to a single use, purpose, or person: sacred to the memory of her sister; a private office sacred to the President.

5. Worthy of respect; venerable.

6. Of or relating to religious objects, rites, or practices.

and check the highlighted portions in 3, 4 and 5. Please read Raju Sir's post for the correct explanation.

P.S: I suppose the above source could be considered as a good dictionary too!! :thumb:

 

[suraju06]

I suppose the above source could be considered as a good dictionary too!


Poor Raju. Does not know where to go and hide.​ Does not know how many hits he will get per day.

 

[sravna]

The word "sacred" used by me is in the sense of something that cannot be violated. Can you disown your relationship with your father or your mother. In the same way is the relationship with your spouse. Why would such an important relationship be any different in principle? The fact that someone is not able to give it the respect that it deserves is something different. It indeed requires maturity to accommodate and get along with your spouse peacefully for a lifetime. That you are not able to do it speaks of your level of maturity. Why only blame your spouse and say that the relationship itself can be done away with?

 

[sravna]

The key word is 'repeatedly' - yes that is subjective ..I do not care to comments about anyone here in the forum..But those who repeatedly talk about such things are more likely than not hypocrites.

Those 'gay bashers' - politicians and preachers turned out to be themselves gay in many instances ..

"The lady doth protest too much, methink" quote summarizes the point

The quote summarizes your point but one can repeatedly argue against something and may not be hypocritical. I don't see the type of connection that you are trying to make.

 

[C RAVI]

The word "sacred" used by me is in the sense of something that cannot be violated. Can you disown your relationship with your father or your mother. In the same way is the relationship with your spouse. Why would such an important relationship be any different in principle? The fact that someone is not able to give it the respect that it deserves is something different. It indeed requires maturity to accommodate and get along with your spouse peacefully for a lifetime. That you are not able to do it speaks of your level of maturity. Why only blame your spouse and say that the relationship itself can be done away with?

Shri Sravna,


The above post of yours is the very foundation of any relationship that need to be considered sacred - Made or declared holy/Dedicated or devoted exclusively to a single use, purpose, or person/worthy of respect, venerable (as highlighted by Smt.Raji Ram)



We all grown up and matured adults know that individuals differ with their individuality and every individual have some flaws. Having this basic understanding and acceptances we continue to hold on to our relationships.


Relationship with parents, siblings, relatives, friends and spouse are all much valuable and sensitive in their own ways.

Unless dedication & devotion and the sense of respect is attached towards the above relationships, we humans can not achieve the sense of fulfillment. Some way we are dependent on each other in these relationships and we sense the pleasure of supporting each other, in the way possible.

Since, spouse appears in our life much later, we tend to do extra work to make the relationship happening, with the sense of friendliness and that obviously requires our best possible understanding, adjustments and care to keep each other comfortable. The relationship need to be nurtured and strengthened with the sense of respect and significance attached to the relationship.

As such, like any other relationship, in fact more than the other relationships, husband-wife relationship is sacred / honorable / devotional / dedicational and valuable as this relationship is ment for establishing a family with children; to work towards materialistic and spiritual growth; to establish the sense of respect, love, care and responsibilities among the family members and to ensure prosperity of the whole family, through out the journey together and passing on the values to the future generation.


Unless this sense of reverance is attached to the "husband - wife relationship", people are many who would just consider the relationship as a business contact with perfect and balanced give and take deed, carying the sense of importance to "personal benefits". As such, the sense of EGO, Upmanship, "not to give a way", "not to let go of things", "not to compromise" etc..etc attitude would be prioritized, eventually leading to termination of contract, sooner or later.


The spiritual sacredness is considered to be the most significant and sensible approach for humans who all are intended to grow spiritually, while living a materialistic human life, with commitments and responsibilities and try their best to be honest and righteous to give true meaning to their spiritual practices. This sense of "sacredness" in a bit different dimension can well be associated with husband-wife relationship, in which both are inteneded and agreed upon to fulfill each others emotional, physical, committal, responsible and dedicational expectations and obligations.

 

[Raji Ram]

The word "sacred" used by me is in the sense of something that cannot be violated. Can you disown your relationship with your father or your mother. In the same way is the relationship with your spouse. .......

Dear Sir,

Actually, today I wanted to write about a conversation I had with my friend. Thanks for writing about this point.

Yesterday, I was discussing this topic with my friend and she said the same thing. When the younger generation is able to

continue their affection with their father, mother, brothers and sisters after fighting with them, why are they NOT able to do

similarly with the spouse? I told Ram that it was a very nice point. You won't imagine what comment I got from him....
'There is NO law to disown the father, mother and siblings!'. :faint:

 

[prasad1]

I suppose the above source could be considered as a good dictionary too!


Poor Raju. Does not know where to go and hide.​ Does not know how many hits he will get per day.

Mr. Rich Raju you are a good source of something, I am sure I will find out.

You wrote
1.dedicated or set apart for the service or worship of deity(a tree **** to the gods)
This must be from a Hinglish dictionary. Only In India you worship a tree. But still it is religious.
2. devoted exclusively to one service or use(as of a person or purpose)(a fund **** to charity)
Again in older times all charities were in relation with religious activity.
3.worthy of religious veneration
4.entitled to reverence and respect
5.of or relating to religion-not secular or profane (**** music)
6.unassailable, inviolable
7.highly valued and important(a **** responsibility)

My point is that word sacred comes from religious significance only, and is not commonly used in secular usage.
I suppose for an atheist there is nothing sacred (i am only guessing).

 

[prasad1]

Dear Sir,

Actually, today I wanted to write about a conversation I had with my friend. Thanks for writing about this point.

Yesterday, I was discussing this topic with my friend and she said the same thing. When the younger generation is able to

continue their affection with their father, mother, brothers and sisters after fighting with them, why are they NOT able to do

similarly with the spouse? I told Ram that it was a very nice point. You won't imagine what comment I got from him....
'There is NO law to disown the father, mother and siblings!'. :faint:

That is a true statement.
You are born into a relations, but you choose your friends.
Janma ka bandhan chute na.
Pyar ka bandhan.......

There may be no law to break the birth relations, but there is abandonment even in that relations. You just have to visit one of those "destitute widows homes" to realize that there is break in birth relations too. May be we do not want to accept it, just as we did(do) not accept that there is a break in spousal relation.

Kabir Das says:

Dukh Mein Simran Sab Kare, Sukh Mein Kare Na KoyeJo Sukh Mein Simran Kare, Tau Dukh Kahe Ko Hoye

Such is the nature of mankind. When we are in distress, in a state of helplessness, we invariably communicate with Him in our own silent prayer. However, when things are going good, we forget Him. Kabir in this doha highlights this and gives a promise when he says that we shall not suffer if we pray to Him during our good times.

 

[sravna]

That is a true statement.
You are born into a relations, but you choose your friends.
Janma ka bandhan chute na.
Pyar ka bandhan.......

There may be no law to break the birth relations, but there is abandonment even in that relations. You just have to visit one of those "destitute widows homes" to realize that there is break in birth relations too. May be we do not want to accept it, just as we did(do) not accept that there is a break in spousal relation.

Kabir Das says:

Dukh Mein Simran Sab Kare, Sukh Mein Kare Na KoyeJo Sukh Mein Simran Kare, Tau Dukh Kahe Ko Hoye

Such is the nature of mankind. When we are in distress, in a state of helplessness, we invariably communicate with Him in our own silent prayer. However, when things are going good, we forget Him. Kabir in this doha highlights this and gives a promise when he says that we shall not suffer if we pray to Him during our good times.

Dear Shri Prasad,

The point is the relationship doesn't end. Your son or your daughter doesn't cease to be one irrespective of the lows in the relationship. The relationship itself is not violable.

 

[prasad1]

Dear Shri Prasad,

The point is the relationship doesn't end. Your son or your daughter doesn't cease to be one irrespective of the lows in the relationship. The relationship itself is not violable.

I did not make it, so I can not beak it.

That does not prove anything.
Marriages are man made relations, they are not biological. So the nature of the two is going to be different. Wool is wool, nylon can mimic wool but it is going to be different.

 

[sravna]

I did not make it, so I can not beak it.

That does not prove anything.
Marriages are man made relations, they are not biological. So the nature of the two is going to be different. Wool is wool, nylon can mimic wool but it is going to be different.

The point is not whether it is man made or not. The analogy is to show why the relationship of marriage should be on equal footing with that of biological relations. Because the importance of the relationship is no less. No doubt, people have to raise the bar but the abdication of that, due to the fact that it is only man made is not justifiable and may be even irresponsible

 

[sangom]

Hindu marriage today is subject to, and governed by the Hindu Marriages Act, 1955 and its amendments by Parliament. This statute talks only of solemnizing a marriage; it does not make any reference to the "sacredness" of the ritual. It talks about completion of the marriage where the saptapadī is included in the customary rites. (For those hindus who do not have saptapadī as a part of their customary marriage ceremony, this does not apply.)

Now, in the case of tabras, the saptapadī is a part of their customary rites of marriage, but it consists of the groom taking the right toe of the bride with his fingers and making her take seven steps by the right side of the sacrificial fire, himself chanting the seven mantras starting with ekamiṣe viṣṇustānvetu etc. However, the law states that "Where such rites and ceremonies include the saptapadi (that is, the taking of seven steps by the bridegroom and the bride jointly before the sacred fire), the marriage becomes complete and binding when the seventh step is taken." (sec. 7(2) of the Act). Therefore, I feel our tabra marriages may, strictly according to the Law, be all null and void ! Hence, any talk about such invalid marriages being a sacred relationships loses its validity AFA tabra marriages are concerned, imo.

Another aspect of the hindu marriage is that according to our Dharmasastras (which governed the hindu marriages before the Hindu Code Bill was passed into Law by the Parliament, and which the Kanchi seer Chandrasekharendra Sarasvati himself wanted to be continued), there are eight types of marriages : brāhma, prājāpatya, ārṣa, daiva, gāndharva, āsura, rākṣasa and paiśāca. In the first four types, it was expexted that a girl should be a nāgnikā (one who looks pretty even without clothes, one who is nearing puberty, etc.,) at the time of marriage.

We have come a long way from all those beliefs and today, the tabra marriage is neither according to the Dharmasastras nor according to the Hindu Marriages Act, strictly speaking. Why then should we consider that marriage has still some "sacredness" attached to it? Is it because the males want to restrict the freedom of the woman for divorcing, by ascribing some kind of sacredness to a purely contractual but solemn agreement between a man and woman?

Yet another dimension about hindu marriages is what Atharva veda 5-17-8 & 9, says:

8. And if [there were] ten former husbands of a woman, not Brahmans,
provided a Brahman has seized her hand, he is alone her husband.

9. A Brahman [is] indeed her husband, not a noble (rājanya), not a
Vaiśya : this the sun goes proclaiming to the five races of men (mānava).