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Yet another failed marriage

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I really do not buy this whole marriage stuff as sacred etc..

Look at the meaning of the word Varadakshina..Vara(groom) and Dakshina(fee).

What is so sacred about a marriage when one has to pay the groom a fee to marry a bride.

It's like fixing a price for the male and putting him on sale just like some females pay for some scantily clad male dancer at some joint!LOL

Then it is also argued that Vara Dakshina is actually the girls share of the father's property..so has to be given to the girl.
If that is the case then why call it Vara Dakshina?

It should have been called Vadhu Dakshina(Bride Fee) given by a father to his daughter when she gets married.

Calling it Vara Dakshina only means that the men can start demanding higher amounts eventually.

So for me I feel marriages were never sacred to start with....It is just a socio economic contract for continuation of species.

The term used for "marriage" in the typical Tabra invitation மஞ்சள் பத்திரிகை, as it is called, is
விவாஹ (vivāha). This word means "carrying (off) in a special way" (viśeṣeṇa vāhayati iti) and is a reminder of those very early tribal times when people of one tribe used to attack another tribe and steal away cattle (cattle rustling) and also forcibly carry away girls and marry them to eligible young men in their (attacking tribe's) own hamlet. That being the underlying fact, marriage is not at all a sacred function; it is just a means to satisfy the desire for sex in the male, and, of course, indirectly for progeny which will be recognized as heirs by one's society.
 
Dear Sravna,

I value every relationship too but I prefer not to call any one of it sacred.

You know why?

Cos when something is called SACRED..no one pays attention to it cos they expect it to be self sustaining in other words "Auto Pilot Mode".

Like how most people view God..they hardly pay any required attention to God but expect God to bail them out of any difficult situation.

That is what happens when any relationship is elevated to the level of Sacredness.

People call marriage sacred but many fail to pay attention to their spouse and expect them to remain faithful just becos marriage is sacred.

Even in friendship..some people take their friends for granted and only pay them attention when there is some urgent matter..but they expect their friends to always be by their side.

Relationships in this world is like a plant that needs water and sunshine.
Without the water of love and the sunshine of attention no relationship will stand the test of time.

I feel it is one's Svadharma to maintain any relationship they are in.. be it wife,husband,friend,mama,machan,chinna veedu,chinna veedans(male version),live-in partner etc.

If a person can not do his or her Dharma in a relationship then they should opt out of it to give the other person a chance to be happy.

So I rather view any relationship as just humanly normal with no sacredness added to it or minused from it..cos only when something is normal we need to maintain it well so that it does not become abnormal or supernormal.

How to make any relationship "sacred", by doing pooja, aarti, etc?
 
Well said Mr. Kunjuppu.

But the society is not there yet. At least this is true in TB community. From the posts here that they ascribe "SACRED" to a human relationship. We know from history that every relation has that possibility of souring, and going bad. Even the mighty have killed their father, brothers, and of corse their spouses.
You must have heard of Henry VIII of England.
It is arrogant of us to think that somehow we are superior to all other human being.

Gibbons, swans, black vultures, wolves, etc too mate for life, but I am sure you would not consider that relation as sacred.

Shri Prasad,

I do not think that the TB community is not yet ready for accepting divorce as a natural phenomenon — as much natural as death is to birth. You are probably getting a false picture that members here are against "divorce" because they write "sacred" as an adjective which follows or is prefixed to, the noun 'marriage'; I feel it is just a custom to say so. May be, in due course divorce will also become equally "sacred"!

As I wrote in this post, our very word for marriage has not yet undergone any change from the tribal custom of "virgin rustling". Only, the religiously minded folks have been made to believe that there is something sacred in the marriage alliance/relationship, but if you keenly observe the day to day lives of tabras, it will be amply clear that marriage is looked upon only in its physiological aspects and nothing more.
 
How to make any relationship "sacred", by doing pooja, aarti, etc?
Sacred has these meaning too, Sir!

a. Made or declared holy.

b. Dedicated or devoted exclusively to a single person.

c. Worthy of respect; venerable.

You seem to have missed one of the earlier posts!
 
Sri Sangom Sir's post #126 for reference:

The term used for "marriage" in the typical Tabra invitation மஞ்சள் பத்திரிகை, as it is called, is விவாஹ (vivāha). This word means "carrying (off) in a special way" (viśeṣeṇa vāhayati iti) and is a reminder of those very early tribal times when people of one tribe used to attack another tribe and [COLOR=#DA7911 !important]steal away[/COLOR] cattle (cattle rustling) and also forcibly carry away girls and marry them to eligible young men in their (attacking tribe's) own hamlet. That being the underlying fact, marriage is not at all a sacred function; it is just a means to satisfy the desire for sex in the male, and, of course, indirectly for progeny which will be recognized as heirs by one's society.

In the மஞ்சள் பத்திரிகை (invitation printed in yellow paper) the word விவாஹ is followed by சுப முஹூர்ததம் . I do not think that the visesena vaahayati iti has any diabolical connotatiopns as is made out in the post. It is like the westerners interpreting Shivling as Shiva's phallus. Yes carrying away is certainly the essence of the marriage. But not stealing away like cattle rustling. In any case you dont carry away a girl and consider it as an auspicious occasion (சுப முஹூர்த்தம்). Every word and expression used by Hindus can be given a spin by plain transliteration and thus every underlying idea can be ridiculed. Marriage is certainly a means to satisfy the desire for sex not only in the male but also in the female and for progeny. But it is not just that alone. Both these ends can be achieved by going to a professional commercial sex worker. There is no need to live together for a life time much longer than the sexually active period in a couple's life. It is two young people coming together and taking several vows. Sometimes irreconcilable differences set in and the vows are forgotten and the marriage breaks unfortunately. But these are exceptions and are not the rule. Living in a family together is a beautiful experience. It ends only when one of the two members die.

Cheers.
 
I have given the ideal position where not only marriage but any relationship that matters should be given its due respect. There are ways other than marriage for sex and procreation. That's what some members pointed out. If we want to live by instincts why do we call ourselves a thinking species?

Logical ability does separate us from the animals but if in reality we let our thinking being conditioned by those instincts what is the use of being a thinking species? So it is not only thinking per se that can separate us from animals but thinking that is unconditioned

I believe that we can be really a thinking species and should not let ourselves think that our actions are only an extrapolation of the actions of animals.
 
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suraju06 Sir

" Living in a family together is a beautiful experience. It ends only when one of the two members die"


Is a realistic view of those couple live when their son/ daughter families are in a foreign land; our son with his family is in US and our daughter with her family is in UK; so we decided to live with our son's family and visit occasionally our daughter who is in UK.
Both of us are old, i am nearing 74 , my wife 67; so we decided to apply for Green card and got it; we can now visit India/UK any time after completing a stay of 180 days in US; but we must re enter US before the expiry of another 180 days. This gives us a sort of freedom to go round as we have 5 year UK visa too.
As you have rightly said 'Living in a family together is a beautiful experience. It ends only when one of the two members die' is going to come any day to us.
To some extend , the love from grand children, son, daughter in law can compensate but not altogether.
I am of the opinion a woman can manage to stay alone without her husband with son's family, but for a man without wife might prove a difficult task.
Don't know how other members react to this.
 
I have given the ideal position where not only marriage but any relationship that matters should be given its due respect. There are ways other than marriage for sex and procreation. That's what some members pointed out. If we want to live by instincts why do we call ourselves a thinking species?

Logical ability does separate us from the animals but if in reality we let our thinking being conditioned by those instincts what is the use of being a thinking species? So it is not only thinking per se that can separate us from animals but thinking that is unconditioned

I believe that we can be really a thinking species and should not let ourselves think that our actions are only an extrapolation of the actions of animals.

Dear Sri. Sravna, Greetings.

I quite agree with you when you say we should not act on our instincts ( but that's what I do most of the times!). Yes, we should be thinking, we should be analysing, looking at the pros and cons. But what happens if the thinking goes too far? In my opinion, we do. All these checking horoscopes, checking this and that... often times almost splitting the hair type of analysing.. can just be too much.

Any relationship should be respected. Then again, every individual should be respected as an individual too. First thing is an individual.. then comes relationship. Most often than not, such concepts don't happen. That's when the relationship starts disintegrating.

In the case of a man and wife, the relationship gets more complicated. Personally I haven't quite mastered it so, I should refrain from commenting.

Cheers!
 
suraju06 Sir

" Living in a family together is a beautiful experience. It ends only when one of the two members die"
…….

……...
As you have rightly said 'Living in a family together is a beautiful experience. It ends only when one of the two members die' is going to come any day to us.
To some extend , the love from grand children, son, daughter in law can compensate but not altogether.

I am of the opinion a woman can manage to stay alone without her husband with son's family, but for a man without wife might prove a difficult task.
Don't know how other members react to this.

Years ago, a tambram gentleman immigrated to Canada. He was nearing mid aged, and left a flourishing career in india, to seek out fortune in Canada. He landed in Toronto, and became a paying guest in one of our friend’s homes.

This was then a young family, the husband wife both yet to have children, with a heavy mortgage and two jobs. Both left early and came late. To add to the discomfort, they lived in the suburbs of Toronto, meaning that there is no convenient and frequent public transport. The gentleman from india was thus isolated and faced big odds trying to find his first job.

As usual, he expected 4 meals a day, starting with coffee, then breakfast/brunch, lunch, tiffin and finally dinner. Imagine his shock, when he woke up the first day and found himself alone, with a note from the host wife, to fix himself toast or cereals, and instructions to make coffee. No word of lunch (!).

The poor guy was in tears as he did not know even how to boil water.

Time and again, I have found that my male relatives, on visiting us, are amazed at how handy I am not only in cooking, but am responsible for putting food on the table many a times, while the wife is away working or out of town or has other activities keeping her away from kitchen. The concept that men can and need to cook, is thoroughly alien to these.

I am not at all surprised. As I was the same till I was 23. Actively prevented from entering the kitchen other than to seek some food, already prepared, I did not have a clue to making sambhar or rasam or any such stuff. It was only coming to Canada, living alone, and slowly but very quickly learning to prepare rudimentary kozhambu/vegetable as otherwise only starvation faced me.

I think the western counterpart hubby learns from an earlier stage to prepare food. But then their ordinary day to day food, is far less complicated, compared to us, re mixture of ingredients and variety of sauces. A steak or chicken or fish, grilled or barbecued is the main meal. Salt and pepper, added to provide the spice. Vegetables boiled or raw salad with not tasty concotions. And other ready made frozen stuff available in the markets.

I find that we too have ‘improved’. Now a days, I can go to any indian store, and get ready made food, in vacuum sealed packages, same as in india. I look at the labels and note the chemical contents – so many sulfates, malleates, magesiums…that I wonder, how much of it is really the ‘real food’.

Personally I think, for an old man, to live with his son is definitely not half as easy, as to live with his daughter. Daughters, generally, have a soft corner for their father, and would go the extra mile to take care of him. Daughter in law, may be ok, but can never replace a daughter, in affection. A daughter, though not quite, can be as understanding as a wife, and more amenable to old age needs, than a daughter in law, but there are exceptions everyone.

Generally speaking, it is good to leave the earth, while in good health, and save everyone the trouble. But God often has other plans I guess.
 
My dad has no idea how to cook to save his life. He was brought up in a pretty conservative family where the boys just don't enter the kitchen except to wash hand/plate and like you said KunjuppuJi to look for food. The boys duty was just to study and perhaps play sport, if at all. He has changed now though after many many years of marriage, albeit slightly. He can now make his own oats, tea, coffee and warm stuff in the microwave :). Before either my mum or I had to make tea as he hadn't even a clue as to where the sugar was kept or the tea!

But not all Tambrahm families those days are like that. My Pattar periappas not only studied well but they could cook even before marriage. In fact they used to help my periammas with the cooking and changing nappies, bathing the children and they are way older than my dad. In fact my mum used to stay with her sister while working before marriage, and the first morning she was shocked that it was her BIL that was preparing breakfast for her and her nephews, while her sister was getting dressed for work! :D

I personally feel Telugu people are just that much more conservative than Tambrahms who are much quicker to adapt and are more flexible especially Pattars. All this of course my limited observation so apologies in advance if its hurting anyone.
 
Ms. Amala,
I am hurt
A
ll this of course my limited observation so apologies in advance if its hurting anyone.
I always make tea, and breakfast for my wife. I also used to prepare lunch for my daughter.
I can and often cook dinner. I make my own chutney and pickles. So i beg your pardon. Cooking is an art, and you got to have interest, secondly you must be very particular about food taste.
It also helps that I have a very supportive wife who can make better food that I.

I fully second Mr. Kunjuppu's point
Generally speaking, it is good to leave the earth, while in good health, and save everyone the trouble. But God often has other plans I guess.

It is not in our hand.
 
Sri. Kunjuppu, Greetings.

...Time and again, I have found that my male relatives, on visiting us, are amazed at how handy I am not only in cooking, but am responsible for putting food on the table many a times,...

I am not surprised. I have noticed even in this forum members have made fun of a male who can cook very well!

Western counter parts leave home early. Cook for themselves. Even at home here, our children cook various recipes. Mexican, pizza, pastas, noodles... choices are plenty. When our son went to meet his bride to be, few times he cooked in their home for himself and for that girl too. When our DIL migrated to Brisbane, she learned cooking from me! Now the young couple are on their own and she cooks well. Usually, males of our tribe are not that smart in kitchen while in Tamil Nadu.

Cheers!
 
My dad cooks real well.He also makes excellent Murukku.

Both my brother's too cook very well.

My husband also cooks well..in fact he learnt lot of dishes on his own and also took recipes from his mother and me.
 
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Very nice discussion.
Inmo we humans are social animals. We cannot live alone. For that matter any sexually reproducing animals cannot live alone. As a human we have needs and desires. So does our relationship. Every relationship which includes man, woman, mother/father to children, with siblings, friends, colleagues, etc... has mutual obligations to each other to keep the relationship to continue in a favourable manner.

As Shri Raju said
It is two young people coming together and taking several vows. Living in a family together is a beautiful experience. It ends only when one of the two members die

For the relationship to continue and prosper, the couple should feel safe with each other, take care of each other, have mutual trust and mutual honesty, and protect each other physically and emotionally. The relationship should be abuse free. It should be a companionship.

Kind Regards
 
Frankly speaking I still feel marriage is just like how we tie an elephant to a post!

An elephant which has got used to being tied to a post since young even when it reaches adulthood will stand there and not try to break away.

Technically the elephant has the strength to just break away the chain but since it's mind has been conditioned to think that chained means stay put and not break away..it does not even realize it's own strength.

So we humans basically have a wild animal is all of us caged up and tied..we are actually not really all that monogamous in reality.

It is just that marriage tames some amount of desire..( I think the member HRHK also had spoken on similar lines saying marriage is just to control us).

Marriage also gives a constant supply of physical pleasure so that one does not need to go galavanting for any new "connections".

But the fact remains that the animals still lies within....and nothing can really stop it from breaking free.

That is the reason why humans are called social animals.

Think about it!LOL

Note: This post is purely about the biological make up of humans in our primal mode.
 
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I am of the opinion a woman can manage to stay alone without her husband with son's family, but for a man without wife might prove a difficult task.
Don't know how other members react to this.

Dear Sir,

I 100% agree..seen so many young widows with children and somehow they manage everything eventually but a man will acutely helpless.

It is a biological known fact that a female can multitask and men are not good at multitasking.

I think it is an evolutionary factor too cos in previous times..women stayed at home and men were always at war..so women got used to multitasking.

But these days..no one is at home and everyone is at war!LOL

So very soon males too will adapt and be able to multitask.
 
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Dear Renu,

In uncivilized humans would have lived like animals. The strongest will win the female! Only our civilization brought the ideas

like 'oruvanukku oruththi', to form a healthy society. But, we have more percentage of aids cases in our country and that is a

different story! There were and are many humans who are not satisfied with one intimate relationship. They go wild - after all

humans are social animals - and get the pleasure they want, without getting noticed. Some do without fear of 'nAlu pEr' in the

society! If no stigma is attached to divorces, the plight of the children in future will be really bad and sad! :pout:

The couple would say, 'Your children and my children are playing with our children!', IFF they take care of all of them!!! :grouphug:
 
Dear RR ji,

It is kind of a misunderstood fact that being non monogamous is purely for physical pleasure.

Most of the while that is not the case..I have noted that some people need a mental partner that is a partner whose IQ matches.
It could very well be platonic too sometimes.

Remember Sage Yajnavalkya had 2 wives..The 1st wife was just a regular types of woman who used to cook and clean with no desire for any intellectual discussion.

The 2nd wife Maitreyi was his intellectual equal or I would also say even better than him at times...if we observe all their discussions.

That is what I am saying..each partner has a different role to play.
 

"It is a biological known fact that a female can multitask and men are not good at multitasking" :thumb: Renu!


I have written about this lady already somewhere in another thread (may be in 2011)

She was (now no more) my friend's mother-in-law. She was married at a very tender age, to a much older man, who had a sever

attack of polio! When her four sons were married and in good position, that mAmi told me that she wanted to live for at least ten

years after her husband left this world and God granted the 'boon'!! She was very efficient and used to call me 'sakalakalAvalli'

and I adore that title! She taught me to how to make softy 'thayir vadais' with ease! :)

P.S: An 'average Indian husband' provides nothing more than financial help to his better half! :dizzy:
 
Nice. :)

But no vegetarian requirement? Also help with household chores only during holidays? Free pass on weekdays?
Also how about: will not look at other women, even when I am not around.


Marriage is a business deal!

Just look at the conditions from a tambram girl... Quite a long list:

What we are looking for

01. Should be well educated and be in a good job and well earning

02. Should be good looking (Complexion not a matter)


03. Should be a tee totaller (i.e. no bad habits)


04. Should be very understanding and caring.


05. Should be really patient.


06. Should love children.


07. Should love me.


08. Should Love music and dance many kinds and also nature


09. Should strongly oppose domestic violence, corporal punishment or any kind of physical abuse.


10. Should have some belief in God and should observe and follow certain traditional values.


11. Should not be too orthodox or too primitive in thoughts. can be modern .


12. Should not have a bad temperament.


13. Should have good moral values and practices.


14. Should be more supportive at all times.


15. Should be able to manage efficiently when i am out of station.


16. Should also share household chores during holidays or so.


17. Should have ideas or other views in common with me.


18. Should willingly help me when needed.


P.S: She could have put it in a nut shell: I need an obedient servant who is an :angel:
 

Now I got it Renu! Sage Yajnavalkya was the role model for the hero of the film 'Sindhubairavi'. :lol:

Dear RR ji,

I had a strong feeling you were going to say this..cos I also thought of the same thing.

But we need to make a female version of that SindhuBhairavi movie and I am going to call it
KalaBhairavan!LOL

It should be about a woman married to a man called Kala who is a regular types husband and she finally meets her intellectual equal named Bhairavan and all hell breaks loose.
 
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