Yet another failed marriage

[BostonSankara]

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It is often easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission.

But what is the reason for the boy's sudden change? I totally understand where the girls parents are coming from. There is no closure unless you know why someone who is totally fine with you (i'm completely assuming here) the next moment ceases communication and acts like his wife is a total stranger. Especially if that someone is your spouse!. Plenty of weirdos around thats for sure and Prasad Sir you seem to know quite a number of them D Just kidding! please don't yell at me!)

 

[renuka]

1) Marriage is considered just as a legal partnership with a perfect and balanced give and take between the spouse and nothing else!! But still, a husband as a MAN should bear the brunt of the failed contract by way of compensations. That is how the legal systems are framed to punish only MEN.

2) Divorce is considered to be the quickest and best way out, the moment there is a sort of disagreement and confusions between the couples. Because, no one has the legal obligation to forgo their likes and preferences just to make other happy and comfortable. And parents should immediately file a divorce case in support of their daughters.


3) If marriage is considered to be sacred it means spouse are subjected to religious bigotry, by which they are forcefully and mercilessly expected to suffer hell in the hands of each other. LOL!!! Thus, never to consider marriage as sacred. It is just a contract, supposed to be a perfect contract till the parties involved could keep getting at most positive, favorable and higly satisfied performance evaluations. Failling which, at any point, the contract should be terminated without wasting the precious time of one's personal life.

4) Marriages are conducted for sons and daughters only to fulfill social obligations and nothing else. LOL!!! Only to Show Off and only to throw party. LOL!! There is no hard rule that the couples who got their union solemnized should try their best to make true sense of their solemnized togetherness. It is just a public declaration of marriage between the two (so that people don't question the moralities of the boy and the girl who are going to be into intimate physical relationship) that got nothing to do with the sense of family/relationship values.


5) Western people do have family values and take mariage as a serious affair.

6) In India, Divorce is a stigma. Parents are afraid of their image in the society and nothing else. This trend need to be changed and people should learn from the Western values of human's personal likes and preferences thought life. People in India should understand that human live once and till the death should not be subjected to any sort of adjustments and compromises. If they are expected to sacrfice a bit and give way to their spouse, it would only mean a lack of sense of humanity and would prove the Indian society only as a primitive society.

Dear Ravi,

I am very happy to read that you finally agree with most of us!LOL

 

[Raghy]

It is often easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission.

Sri. Sankara, Greetings.

It is not easier to ask for forgiveness. I have seen somany persons lecture on how one should forgive, one should forget etc. But the most important thing is, one can't forgive unless the forgiveness was sought. Trust me, it takes a lot to seek forgiveness. Actually I gauge persons worth by his/her ability or the lack of it in seeking forgiveness. Offending someone is not a big deal... but it takes a gentleman/lady to seek forgiveness. Seeking forgiveness is a cut above the ordinary.

I don't get the reason for the word 'permission'. This discussion is about married couple... Where does the 'permission' come in? Usually things are just taken over.

Cheers!

 

[Raji Ram]

The need for very intimate relationship varies form person to person. If there is no balance in 'this' relationship

between the couple, it will pave the way to separation! out:

 

[Brahmanyan]

I have been following this thread with interest.

Well, let me also share my opinion on this important subject, purely from my own observations. I believe in success or failure in married life depends on our own individual behaviour towards other partner in life.

Recently I read an article on the subject of Hindu married couple "Dampati", which I wish to share hereunder:

"The word Dampati in Hindu customs meaning a husband and his wife, is known to one and all among the Hindus. But its significance, both religious and spiritual, is known to very few only. The moment the marriage knot is tied after the performance of the enjoined marriage rites, they become partners for life and tie can be broken only by death of one of them. Thus the Hindu marriage is a sacrament and not a contract as it is in other religions."

It is laid down in the Hindu Dharma Sastras, that the traditional Hindu marriage ceremonials observed by a husband without the co-operation of his wife would be null and void. Hence an orthodox Hindu performs all ceremonies in company of his wife. If he goes on a pilgrimage, he takes his wife with him. If he performs the sraddha (Sanskrit term for faith in Hindu Customs) for his pitris (manes), his wife co-operates with him and helps him. If he bestows gifts on others, his wife joins him in giving away the gift by pouring a spoonful of water on the article held by her husband. In giving a daughter away in marriage, his wife must join him in observances of the formalities attached to it; else the gift is valueless. Some people consider it a sin to feed a Brahmin widower on certain occasions. You may ask to why is so much importance attached to the observances by Hindu dampatis? Well, a man by himself is considered to be an imperfect being lacking that, which is found in the other sex. He is just as a watch or any machinery that cannot be in working order if a part of it is missing. Hence the observances of religious rites and ceremonies by a man in the absence of his wife would be like trying to set in motion machinery lacking in part.

To conclude, like most of the customs, this fine custom too has been ignored and, if at all observed anywhere, it is done in an ineffectual manner since the observer and the dampatis are both unfit for the generation and direction of the influence as expected by or from them."

Well that is the religious part of a Hindu marriage. It may not be followed strictly by all.

Married life is called Grihasthasrama an important phase in the life of human male and female to fulfill the fourfold purushartha that the nature has bestowed on us, namely Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha. It helps the orderly continuity of the human race in the Society. Success or failure of the long standing relationship of two individuals, who are different in every way, lies in understanding and acceptance of differences. It involves a lot of give and take attitude by the individuals. We have to continue our life as "dampati" and not as individuals.

After the initial phase of infatuation and physical gratification, married life shows its real face of pleasure and pain. I have observed, some times, even an issue of trivial nature blows out of proportion due to ebbing ego and lack of understanding. Ofcourse many a time it passes off and heals quickly. But in a few cases this split continues to grow due to various reasons internal and external and culminates in point of no return and ends is separation. Economic independence and loosening of family values is one of the main reasons for the same. But the real sufferer are the children. Psychological damage is more severe in those children. I do understand the point that in some cases "divorce" becomes inevitable due to specific circumstances. Our Courts are wise enough to give enough scope and time for rapprochement among the parties before giving a "divorce".

As we progress in education and economic success we should be ready to face this subject more pragmatically,
instead of sentimental values alone.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

For me not only the relationship with my wife but also my relationship with my father, my mother, my sister, my brother , my friend are all sacred. The whole thing is about giving the relationship the importance that it deserves. When you do not do that you tend to lax in your treatment of others. By making it sacred you do your part irrespective of whether it is reciprocated or not. Think of it . Why would you get unhappy in a relationship? Because you have some expectations from the relationship which if unfulfilled leads to unhappiness.

But what if you don't worry about what you get? As with everything you have to balance your self interest well with those of the others. That way your behavior can be a an unconditional one and you can give the relationship the respect that it deserves.

 

[renuka]

I have been following this thread with interest.

Well, let me also share my opinion on this important subject, purely from my own observations. I believe in success or failure in married life depends on our own individual behaviour towards other partner in life.

Recently I read an article on the subject of Hindu married couple "Dampati", which I wish to share hereunder:

"The word Dampati in Hindu customs meaning a husband and his wife, is known to one and all among the Hindus. But its significance, both religious and spiritual, is known to very few only. The moment the marriage knot is tied after the performance of the enjoined marriage rites, they become partners for life and tie can be broken only by death of one of them. Thus the Hindu marriage is a sacrament and not a contract as it is in other religions."

It is laid down in the Hindu Dharma Sastras, that the traditional Hindu marriage ceremonials observed by a husband without the co-operation of his wife would be null and void. Hence an orthodox Hindu performs all ceremonies in company of his wife. If he goes on a pilgrimage, he takes his wife with him. If he performs the sraddha (Sanskrit term for faith in Hindu Customs) for his pitris (manes), his wife co-operates with him and helps him. If he bestows gifts on others, his wife joins him in giving away the gift by pouring a spoonful of water on the article held by her husband. In giving a daughter away in marriage, his wife must join him in observances of the formalities attached to it; else the gift is valueless. Some people consider it a sin to feed a Brahmin widower on certain occasions. You may ask to why is so much importance attached to the observances by Hindu dampatis? Well, a man by himself is considered to be an imperfect being lacking that, which is found in the other sex. He is just as a watch or any machinery that cannot be in working order if a part of it is missing. Hence the observances of religious rites and ceremonies by a man in the absence of his wife would be like trying to set in motion machinery lacking in part.

To conclude, like most of the customs, this fine custom too has been ignored and, if at all observed anywhere, it is done in an ineffectual manner since the observer and the dampatis are both unfit for the generation and direction of the influence as expected by or from them."

Well that is the religious part of a Hindu marriage. It may not be followed strictly by all.

Married life is called Grihasthasrama an important phase in the life of human male and female to fulfill the fourfold purushartha that the nature has bestowed on us, namely Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha. It helps the orderly continuity of the human race in the Society. Success or failure of the long standing relationship of two individuals, who are different in every way, lies in understanding and acceptance of differences. It involves a lot of give and take attitude by the individuals. We have to continue our life as "dampati" and not as individuals.

After the initial phase of infatuation and physical gratification, married life shows its real face of pleasure and pain. I have observed, some times, even an issue of trivial nature blows out of proportion due to ebbing ego and lack of understanding. Ofcourse many a time it passes off and heals quickly. But in a few cases this split continues to grow due to various reasons internal and external and culminates in point of no return and ends is separation. Economic independence and loosening of family values is one of the main reasons for the same. But the real sufferer are the children. Psychological damage is more severe in those children. I do understand the point that in some cases "divorce" becomes inevitable due to specific circumstances. Our Courts are wise enough to give enough scope and time for rapprochement among the parties before giving a "divorce".

As we progress in education and economic success we should be ready to face this subject more pragmatically,
instead of sentimental values alone.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Dear Sir,

You post is the ideal post that we can only hope anyone in this world will actually adhere to it.

Coming to Dampati....we all know that wife abandoning has taken place even in Treta Yuga which is almost like a divorce or even worse cos at least in divorce a wife still gets some alimony.

And above that on technical grounds in order to do a Yagna a metal statue of the wife was made.

So if a wife can be replaced by a inanimate metal object I really wonder how much this Dampati theory holds good.

Since the whole Treta Yuga episode showed that if a spouse becomes a hindrance for one to carry out his duty and on that grounds she can be abandoned..so I do not find anything wrong in people opting for divorce these days if they feel spouses have become hindrance.

All of us keep saying children will suffer..but did anyone do a psychological assessment on Luv and Kush(the son's of Rama)?

Their mother underwent massive stress while being pregnant..imagine the effect on the children.

Then they grew up without a father around them and knowing very well their father abandoned their mother..then re unite with father only to watch their mother enter the earth(die) in front of their eyes.

How did they bond with a father who did not care for his pregnant wife?

If Luv and Kush could grow up fine even though they had one of the most challenging childhood I guess anyone else in the world can grow up fine.

Note: This post of mine is purely for discussion purposes and with no intention to ridicule the Ramayana.

 

[rishikesan]

Dear Mr Prasad, I have read the details. Despite your sincere efforts you seem to be helpless, because the girls Father is not open to provide real reason /
problem bet the Girl & the Boy.If she makes a written complaint to the police in India, the police will ensure putting the boy behind bars since the law created by
Indira Gandhi is that if the girl is harassed within 7 yrs of marriage the law believes the report of the Bride&
initiate action Letmatching was done & still there is serious problem . As a special case give me a chance to study both horoscopes & give out the
likely reason & remedy if any. My wife Mrs Janaki is 70 yrs old & well versed in this area. You can talk to us
over phone (044)24806871 /24842279 & c
talk to us if you desire.
( Rishikesan) A.Srinivasan

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

For me not only the relationship with my wife but also my relationship with my father, my mother, my sister, my brother , my friend are all sacred. The whole thing is about giving the relationship the importance that it deserves. When you do not do that you tend to lax in your treatment of others. By making it sacred you do your part irrespective of whether it is reciprocated or not. Think of it . Why would you get unhappy in a relationship? Because you have some expectations from the relationship which if unfulfilled leads to unhappiness.

But what if you don't worry about what you get? As with everything you have to balance your self interest well with those of the others. That way your behavior can be a an unconditional one and you can give the relationship the respect that it deserves.

Dear Sravna,

I value every relationship too but I prefer not to call any one of it sacred.

You know why?

Cos when something is called SACRED..no one pays attention to it cos they expect it to be self sustaining in other words "Auto Pilot Mode".

Like how most people view God..they hardly pay any required attention to God but expect God to bail them out of any difficult situation.

That is what happens when any relationship is elevated to the level of Sacredness.

People call marriage sacred but many fail to pay attention to their spouse and expect them to remain faithful just becos marriage is sacred.

Even in friendship..some people take their friends for granted and only pay them attention when there is some urgent matter..but they expect their friends to always be by their side.

Relationships in this world is like a plant that needs water and sunshine.
Without the water of love and the sunshine of attention no relationship will stand the test of time.

I feel it is one's Svadharma to maintain any relationship they are in.. be it wife,husband,friend,mama,machan,chinna veedu,chinna veedans(male version),live-in partner etc.

If a person can not do his or her Dharma in a relationship then they should opt out of it to give the other person a chance to be happy.

So I rather view any relationship as just humanly normal with no sacredness added to it or minused from it..cos only when something is normal we need to maintain it well so that it does not become abnormal or supernormal.

 

[kunjuppu]

Marriage is a business deal!

Just look at the conditions from a tambram girl... Quite a long list:

What we are looking for

01. Should be well educated and be in a good job and well earning

02. Should be good looking (Complexion not a matter)

03. Should be a tee totaller (i.e. no bad habits)

04. Should be very understanding and caring.

05. Should be really patient.

06. Should love children.

07. Should love me.

08. Should Love music and dance many kinds and also nature

09. Should strongly oppose domestic violence, corporal punishment or any kind of physical abuse.

10. Should have some belief in God and should observe and follow certain traditional values.

11. Should not be too orthodox or too primitive in thoughts. can be modern .

12. Should not have a bad temperament.

13. Should have good moral values and practices.

14. Should be more supportive at all times.

15. Should be able to manage efficiently when i am out of station.

16. Should also share household chores during holidays or so.

17. Should have ideas or other views in common with me.

18. Should willingly help me when needed.


P.S: She could have put it in a nut shell: I need an obedient servant who is an :angel:

good lady raji!,

i think, if i roll back the years...oh about 50 years ago, and checked out the wish list of a middle class girl's parent, one would find a fair number of the above points.

i think, all communities, including ours, in india, when arranging marriages, have always looked for poruthams of the family - job, status, wealth, looks, education... all points included in your note. we translated these factors, into what we believed, as 'the welfare of our daughters'. and based on our strength/weaknesses, negotiated.

so that, a very fair pretty girl, even though dirt poor, was able to be married off, to a extremely wealthy guy, not necessarily strong on looks or education. or even disparity in age . and vice versa happened as well.

i looked very hard in your list, and could not find, any mention of sexual compatibility.

i am quite sure that it is not the normal prudishness on your part, that caused you to omit, so important a தாம்பத்திய function. are you implying, that our current day, tambram girls, do not necessarily look to their hubbies as a source of conjugal bliss?

is it because they are not interested in carnal activities? or confident, that should this not succeed at home to their satisfaction, it is freely available elsewhere? i would appreciate your keen eyed observation, on the goings and comings on this front, in the modern tambram household

incidentally how was this treated 100 years ago? especially if the problem was with the male? did the female have any recourse to remedy? i am quite aware, that if the wife was a மலடி the husband was rushed into another marriage.

incidentally, one case of a failed marriage really shook me. not many here may have heard of meena kandasamy. she is a remarkable young lady, in her twenties, very erudite and (i think) has a great future as a thinker and intellectual. with her knowledge and modernism, one would have expected her to seek a partner, on par with her, and full of mutual regard and affection.

just imagine, when i read this article a few months back - it is harrowing in its details, but very much a reminder, that even today, a large number of women, irrespective of their social standing, can face abusive spouses. there is no guarantee, as to when and who might have the darkness within them, and how it might be unleashed. personally i know of atleast half a dozen of abusive marriages (versus women) in my own extended family, and many a times, i am just plain relieved, that in today's world there is a way out, and that the government and laws, are on the woman's side.

anatomy of a failed modern marriage

thank you.

 

[Brahmanyan]

Dear Doctor,

I fully agree with the points you have raised in your post (#107). I do understand that we do not live on idealism alone.
For every issue there is always a practical side. I have only analysed the issue in general, and not with
case by case study. I request you kindly to read my last sentence, wherein I have admitted that we should
face the subject pragmatically and not on sentimental values alone.

Warm regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[SANDHYAV]

all divorcees are innocent!, that's a null hypothesis to disprove.

if s/he had been a criminal after marriage then he is not innoscent. If she is very rich, she will pay for the flight ticket and hotel accomodation for the partner and divorce expenses.

I know a girl who threw her husband out of her rented flat just becoz she saw her b*m completely only 3 months after marriage and she hated his physique to the core. The hatred came becoz he was doing a phd and although rich and staying in a near by city, did not visit her at all for 2 years. and after his phd when they both finally settled down in a flat, this guy thought he will be more comfy showing off everything and this girl then thought what the heck. and threw him out.

of course the guy was rich and got a divorce easily paying 5 lacs per sitting with the lawyer.The guy even got married withing few months.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

I value every relationship too but I prefer not to call any one of it sacred.

You know why?

Cos when something is called SACRED..no one pays attention to it cos they expect it to be self sustaining in other words "Auto Pilot Mode".

Like how most people view God..they hardly pay any required attention to God but expect God to bail them out of any difficult situation.

That is what happens when any relationship is elevated to the level of Sacredness.

People call marriage sacred but many fail to pay attention to their spouse and expect them to remain faithful just becos marriage is sacred.

Even in friendship..some people take their friends for granted and only pay them attention when there is some urgent matter..but they expect their friends to always be by their side.

Relationships in this world is like a plant that needs water and sunshine.
Without the water of love and the sunshine of attention no relationship will stand the test of time.

I feel it is one's Svadharma to maintain any relationship they are in.. be it wife,husband,friend,mama,machan,chinna veedu,chinna veedans(male version),live-in partner etc.

If a person can not do his or her Dharma in a relationship then they should opt out of it to give the other person a chance to be happy.

So I rather view any relationship as just humanly normal with no sacredness added to it or minused from it..cos only when something is normal we need to maintain it well so that it does not become abnormal or supernormal.

Dear Renuka,

I am not talking about anything supernormal though the ideal would be one. Yes, not taking depends very much on your strength. But you will be more happy than not if you have this ideal of focusing less on the expectations.

 

[renuka]

Dear Doctor,

I fully agree with the points you have raised in your post (#107). I do understand that we do not live on idealism alone.
For every issue there is always a practical side. I have only analysed the issue in general, and not with
case by case study. I request you kindly to read my last sentence, wherein I have admitted that we should
face the subject pragmatically and not on sentimental values alone.

Warm regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Dear Sir,

I always have a very high regard for your posts.
It is always well thought and practical.

Regards

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

I am not talking about anything supernormal though the ideal would be one. Yes, not taking depends very much on your strength. But you will be more happy than not if you have this ideal of focusing less on the expectations.

Dear Sravna,

It is not that one should expect everything without giving anything..relationships are on give and take basis and in equilibrium without taking each other for granted...that is what true commitment is all about.

Just like some women after they become mothers they do not pay the required attention to their husbands physically and emotionally but yet expect the spouses to remain faithful.
It is not as if motherhood makes a person paralyzed waist down as not to pay attention to husband.

Some men who are normal and healthy too do not pay the required attention to their wives citing being busy in their career and also neglect paying their children the required attention.

So all these types of husbands and wives should be sent to the firing squad for elimination!LOL

One should do one's duty correctly.

That is what I am talking about.

 

[renuka]

I know a girl who threw her husband out of her rented flat just becoz she saw her b*m completely only 3 months after marriage and she hated his physique to the core. The hatred came becoz he was doing a phd and although rich and staying in a near by city, did not visit her at all for 2 years. and after his phd when they both finally settled down in a flat, this guy thought he will be more comfy showing off everything and this girl then thought what the heck. and threw him out.

Dear Sandhya,

She did the right thing..this type of guys are selfish..after all even the President of USA has time to spend with family.

One does not study 24/7 even for a Phd..so why couldn't he pay her some attention?

This is what I call taking a person for granted.

 

[sravna]

Dear Ravi,

Good post. As always well analyzed

 

[renuka]

Dear Ravi,

Good post. As always well analyzed

Dear Sravna,

You know.. Ravi and you think very much alike..I am starting to feel in a previous birth you guys could have been Dampati!

You figure out who was a female and who was a male in your previous birth!LOL

Just Kidding.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

You know.. Ravi and you think very much alike..I am starting to feel in a previous birth you guys could have been Dampati!

You figure out who was a female and who was a male in your previous birth!LOL

Just Kidding.

Dear Renuka,

Doesn't matter. Every soul has to take both male and female birth. It evens out.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

You know.. Ravi and you think very much alike..I am starting to feel in a previous birth you guys could have been Dampati!

You figure out who was a female and who was a male in your previous birth!LOL

Just Kidding.

Also if dampatis had thought alike the previous age would have seen very few divorces

 

[Raji Ram]

OMG!! Dear Kunjuppu Sir!

That is NOT my list. I wrote that it is given by a Tambram girl and I am not a girl!

I read it yesterday (with a mild shock), when I was searching for a match for one of my nephews!

Of course, the girl who gave the list of preferences, looks like a :nerd:

 

[Raji Ram]

.......... i looked very hard in your list, and could not find, any mention of sexual compatibility.
.

Dear Sir,

Now, you know that 'the list' is not prepared by me...

The girl who gave the list has indicated in condition #07 .... Should love me!

P.S: Is this called 'conditional love'???

 

[Raji Ram]

I notice that we have left the specific case in the OP and discussions are on very general lines about marriage, divorce, etc.........

Dear Sir,

When we do not know anything about the girl and her family, mentioned in the OP, we can not discuss much about them.

We can only share a few similar incidents that we come across.

 

[renuka]

Of course, the girl who gave the list of preferences, looks like a :nerd:

LOL! this is always the case..still water runs deep..the most simple looking ones are the ones with the most demands.

Even out here it is the same.

I know a lady here who is worried that her daughter is still not married..this girl is simple looking types but her terms and conditions for marriage are endless.

Secondly the mother herself has some terms and conditions ..she tells the daughter never to have a joint bank account with husband cos he will siphon off everything cos such a case actually happened to a female relative of theirs.

So I told the lady..how can you generalize..to be on the safer side..most people have a joint account and also own individual accounts.

Joint account also has advantages at time and so does individual accounts.

The lady was adamant..she told me no way she is going to allow her daughter to have a joint account with her future husband.

This is the type of mothers who ruin their daughter's marriage by sowing the seeds of mistrust too soon even before marriage.

Parents should also know their limits and stay off their children's marriage unless help is sought.

 

[prasad1]

Well said Mr. Kunjuppu.

just imagine, when i read this article a few months back - it is harrowing in its details, but very much a reminder, that even today, a large number of women, irrespective of their social standing, can face abusive spouses. there is no guarantee, as to when and who might have the darkness within them, and how it might be unleashed. personally i know of atleast half a dozen of abusive marriages (versus women) in my own extended family, and many a times, i am just plain relieved, that in today's world there is a way out, and that the government and laws, are on the woman's side.

But the society is not there yet. At least this is true in TB community. From the posts here that they ascribe "SACRED" to a human relationship. We know from history that every relation has that possibility of souring, and going bad. Even the mighty have killed their father, brothers, and of corse their spouses.
You must have heard of Henry VIII of England.
It is arrogant of us to think that somehow we are superior to all other human being.

Gibbons, swans, black vultures, wolves, etc too mate for life, but I am sure you would not consider that relation as sacred.