Ancient hinduism VS modern hinduism

[happyhindu]

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This is my take on the efficacy of mantras.

Intonations of mantras require a person to pay close attention to the sounds, the pitch, the metrical scale, etc. As a person keeps learning and repeating the mantras, his attentiveness causes him to become very receptive to the smallest of changes in any type of sound.

One could say the mind’s receptive ability is trained and enhanced due to repeated chanting. Certain sounds can have the effect of calming the mind. This may affect his temperament and mood in general.

So we can say chanting mantras can calm the mind, make a person receptive to his own thoughts/mind (to help sort them out), enhance a person’s mood positively, and this can positively influence his temperament and general well-being.

However, claiming that mantras can cure medical conditions like various types of cancer, BP, kidney disease, diabetes..…is stretching it very far. I would say combine mantras with yoga for better health, but do not expect cures from it for diseases like cancer.

Yogas and mantras may help conditions like sinusitis and diabetes. My mother vows that bhramari pranayamas, kapalbhati keep her sinuses clear. Just as physiotherapy exercises help conditions with the bones, spine, muscle problems, similarly perhaps specific yoga exercises help the body.

Also, since mantras and exercise can affect the mood / mind, perhaps it can help a person stop binge-eating and thus help control diabetes and food-related disorders like bulimia.

I’ll say mantras and yoga are like maintenance tools. When a person is healthy, they can help in maintaining general well-being. But to expect cures for advanced states of disease like high BP, or cures for multi-factorial diseases like cancer is too much to expect.

Regards.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sravna and others:

There are lots of people in India claiming many things in the name of "Miracle of Poojas/Prayers/Slokas etc).

In general, I just don't believe it.

That too on BP it is very tricky.

1. A persistent 140/90 will put the patient mildly hypertensive. This patient was not given right dose of medication to bring it below or near 120/80. This may be due to the age of the patient also.

2. I will do the Expt the following way:

a. Get about 25 really hypertensive patients without any medication with a reading of 145-150/95-100 (systolic/diastolic pressure).

b. Do the sloka reading or poojas or prayers or whatever for the maximum effect.

c. Then measure the BP several times. Record it immediately.

d. Repeat this for over a month and record the BP readings.

e. Then look at the data without any bias/prejudice.

I will bet there will not be any consistent meaningful effect.

Wait & watch.

Dear Sri.Yamaka, Greetings.

I have not measured the BP at regular intervals. But, The BP would drop. You have given the systolic/diastolic readings; but you have failed to indicate whether that person was symptamatic or assymptamatic. That makes a huge difference. If that person was assymptamatic, if the chanting was even ( in Sanskrit, the chanting may not be even.. some of the letters would be sttretched while some other letters may sound from the base of the throat. For example, Rudram chanting is not even while Sundara Kanda chanting is very even), such chantings would leave calming effects provided the person is not forced to sit through the chanting. Even my children said about the serene effect many times to me. Of course, they did not understand the chanting though.

Cheers!

 

[Suku]

Namaste.. This is certainly a very interesting thread. And it goes beyond just Hinduism. Like the other religons Hinduism has also evolved and changed over the centuries. What may be interesting to note is that some of the institutions of Hinduisim (the mutts / the matadhipadhis) interpret Hinduism to suit their own ends rather than relate to the original vedic Hinduism. Nothing wrong with change but any interpretation should take into mind what the original tenets were.

 

[Nara]

Nothing wrong with change but any interpretation should take into mind what the original tenets were.

Suku, Greetings! I see this is your first post, a grand welcome to you. Hope to see lot more from you.

I appreciate your view that change should be welcomed. But, you also caution the change must be consistent with the original tenets. I submit to you, this where the problem is.

First, who is to tell what the original tenets were but the religious leaders like the matatipathees? Secondly, to advocate that the changes must be faithful to original tenets assumes the original tenets remain relevant today. Is this a reasonable assumption?

Cheers to you Suku, hope to hear from you!

 

[sravna]

I think our mind acquires power, by its ability to be in control. After a certain stage we can acquire enough power to call it supernatural. When mind is controlling emotions or say feelings of lust, it is controlling certain energy, very very powerful ones , i would say the strongest of physical energies. Among these energies I would say sexual energy is the most difficulty to control as it is more difficult to think about controlling pleasure than about pain. That is the last bastion or the strongest physical energy one has to conquer.

That is also the reason why brahmacharyam is so highly regarded as a control of mind. One who doesn't let even a drop of semen in 12 years is called as akhanda brahmachari and he aquires immense spiritual powers if he can accomplish that. Obviously being an extremely difficult feat there are very few such people even in the whole history of mankind. Sankara is said to be one of them.

Once you have conquered energy who have conquered half of the physical world as everything that affects you in the physical world are energy and matter. Your mind should be able to fend off any physical energy just by thoughts alone. As matter is also a form of energy the next step of controlling matter too is possible.

But doing the above such as controlling emotions and lust will be a stupendous feat, in fact the purpose of birth and one becomes a realized soul after one does that.

 

[Suku]

Like any other religion the practice of Hinduism was different in different parts of the country. A Kashmiri Pandit, a Desastha Madhwa, a Tamil Iyer, a Bandhopadyaya will follow their differing types of Hinduism. This is how it was, this is how it is.. and this is how it will be. And if you introduce a Time dimension into the discussion we know how it is going to be.

 

[sangom]

I think our mind acquires power, by its ability to be in control. After a certain stage we can acquire enough power to call it supernatural. When mind is controlling emotions or say feelings of lust, it is controlling certain energy, very very powerful ones , i would say the strongest of physical energies. Among these energies I would say sexual energy is the most difficulty to control as it is more difficult to think about controlling pleasure than about pain. That is the last bastion or the strongest physical energy one has to conquer.

That is also the reason why brahmacharyam is so highly regarded as a control of mind. One who doesn't let even a drop of semen in 12 years is called as akhanda brahmachari and he aquires immense spiritual powers if he can accomplish that. Obviously being an extremely difficult feat there are very few such people even in the whole history of mankind.

Dear Shri Sravna,

What I have assimilated from numerous sources is that the word "brahmacārī' means one who treads the path of brahma. In the upanayana mantras the following one comes:

ko nāmāsi? asau nāmāsmi, kasya brahmacāryasi? asau prāṇasya brahmacāryasmi |
What name have you? My name is so and so.
Whose pupil studying the vedas are you? I am the pupil of prāṇa that is ātmā.

Here you find the word brahmacāri being equated to one studying the vedas merely. There is absolutely no connotation of celibacy etc.

But as time passed and under the gurukula system of yore, the students, mostly in their teens or early twenties had to stay in the guru's house for years, chances of illicit sexual relationship between student and the teacher's wife happened to be a distinct possibility. Severe punishments are prescribed for a student committing such a crime (death by cutting off the genital organs with one's own hands and, carrying them in his open palms, walking southwards till he drops dead). That was the time when the Tantrik restrictions on conserving semen, and increasing one's spiritual strength, etc., pushed their way increasingly into the mainstream hinduism and took a firm hold.

In today's world there are clinical cases where some males cannot ejaculate. Such men are not seen to have any "immense spiritual powers". So, imo, all this talk of brahmacaryaṃ as celibacy is not very correct.

 

[C RAVI]

In today's world there are clinical cases where some males cannot ejaculate. Such men are not seen to have any "immense spiritual powers". So, imo, all this talk of brahmacaryaṃ as celibacy is not very correct.

Men unable to ejaculate due health reasons are very much different than very much physically fit men not ejaculating for consecutive 12 years, controlling all their feelings, while practicing spirituality. Those men are supposed to have composed mind set and a sort of physcial brilliancy with higher psychic and intuitional capabilities..

 

[Yamaka]

I think our mind acquires power, by its ability to be in control. After a certain stage we can acquire enough power to call it supernatural. When mind is controlling emotions or say feelings of lust, it is controlling certain energy, very very powerful ones , i would say the strongest of physical energies. Among these energies I would say sexual energy is the most difficulty to control as it is more difficult to think about controlling pleasure than about pain. That is the last bastion or the strongest physical energy one has to conquer.

That is also the reason why brahmacharyam is so highly regarded as a control of mind. One who doesn't let even a drop of semen in 12 years is called as akhanda brahmachari and he aquires immense spiritual powers if he can accomplish that. Obviously being an extremely difficult feat there are very few such people even in the whole history of mankind. Sankara is said to be one of them.

Once you have conquered energy who have conquered half of the physical world as everything that affects you in the physical world are energy and matter. Your mind should be able to fend off any physical energy just by thoughts alone. As matter is also a form of energy the next step of controlling matter too is possible.

But doing the above such as controlling emotions and lust will be a stupendous feat, in fact the purpose of birth and one becomes a realized soul after one does that.

Dear Sravna:

Why do you want to control or abolish a very healthy basic need of sex and sexual desire or thoughts , anyway?

Do you want to be abnormal, subnormal or supra normal?

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

I referred wikipedia, which says brahmacharya has two usages, the one its connotation of sexual continence, the other as one of the stages in life. It is in the latter usage that it is considered the time of study of the vedas. Even in its latter usage it is mentioned, " This stage of life was characterised by the practice of strict celibacy". Practice of celibacy is not likely to have been given importance due to tantric influences because kama has been regarded in mainstream hinduism as one of the six enemies that one is supposed to fight which I think is an ancient concept.

 

[sangom]

Men unable to ejaculate due health reasons are very much different than very much physically fit men not ejaculating for consecutive 12 years, controlling all their feelings, while practicing spirituality. Those men are supposed to have composed mind set and a sort of physcial brilliancy with higher psychic and intuitional capabilities..

That is what it truly is, a mere supposition!

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna:

Why do you want to control or abolish a very healthy basic need of sex and sexual desire or thoughts , anyway?

Do you want to be abnormal, subnormal or supra normal?

Dear Shri Yamaka,

The need for sex is related to your ability to control the desire. Not everyone is made out for transcending that desire. Nature has devised the scheme of things in such a way normal people have a frequent and strong need for it as it is a means of procreation. But the ultimate purpose of sexual energy is to serve as a strong barrier for one who aspires to raise above that level and to conquer the physical world.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Shri Yamaka,

The need for sex is related to your ability to control the desire. Not everyone is made out for transcending that desire. Nature has devised the scheme of things in such a way normal people have a frequent and strong need for it as it is a means of procreation. But the ultimate purpose of sexual energy is to serve as a strong barrier for one who aspires to raise above that level and to conquer the physical world.

Dear Sravna:

Your view

"But the ultimate purpose of sexual energy is to serve as a strong barrier for one who aspires to raise above that level and to conquer the physical world"

is very egoistic... why do you want to conquer the physical world, anyway?

Your EGO is to go against the Nature, I feel. Why?

I want sex to be for my pleasure and procreation, as the Nature designed it... I don't dare to go against Nature's Will, period.

Cheers.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sravna:

Your view

"But the ultimate purpose of sexual energy is to serve as a strong barrier for one who aspires to raise above that level and to conquer the physical world"

is very egoistic... why do you want to conquer the physical world, anyway?

Your EGO is to go against the Nature, I feel. Why?

I want sex to be for my pleasure and procreation, as the Nature designed it... I don't dare to go against Nature's Will, period.

Cheers.

Shri Y,

This perverted view about sex, sexual energy (rEta:, for semen in sanskrit) has its origin in some of our scriptures. In ancient India the mendicants and ascetics formed a good part of the society. My hunch is that very strict codes of celibacy were prescribed for this category of people so that they don't pose a threat to ordinary people (womenfolk). This was carried over to the various tantrik cults because the same ascetic-mendicants were enamoured of tantrik route because sex formed an inalienable part of it.

Today, people like Sravna gets attracted to this theory. I have known a few unfortunate cases who believed in all such frill but did not achieve anything but some sad results.

 

[sravna]

Shri Y,

This perverted view about sex, sexual energy (rEta:, for semen in sanskrit) has its origin in some of our scriptures. In ancient India the mendicants and ascetics formed a good part of the society. My hunch is that very strict codes of celibacy were prescribed for this category of people so that they don't pose a threat to ordinary people (womenfolk). This was carried over to the various tantrik cults because the same ascetic-mendicants were enamoured of tantrik route because sex formed an inalienable part of it.

Today, people like Sravna gets attracted to this theory. I have known a few unfortunate cases who believed in all such frill but did not achieve anything but some sad results.

Dear Shri Yamaka, Shri Sangom,

When I said that I want to conquer the physical world, I meant I want to not be affected by anything in the physical world and not in the sense you understood.Contrary to what you understood, I want nothing for myself and not everything for myself. There is a great joy in not being affeceted by anything which can be understood if only experienced.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Shri Yamaka, Shri Sangom,

When I said that I want to conquer the physical world, I meant I want to not be affected by anything in the physical world and not in the sense you understood.Contrary to what you understood, I want nothing for myself and not everything for myself. There is a great joy in not being affeceted by anything which can be understood if only experienced.

" I want nothing for myself and not everything for myself. There is a great joy in not being affeceted by anything which can be understood if only experienced."

Dear Sravna:

Very interesting...then

1. Why do you wake up every morning? Why don't you stay in the bed all day? How will you get "great joy" by not being affected by anything, I mean anything?

2. Are you not driving yourself to isolation and be inconsequential to yourself and your family?

I want to wake up everyday, and meet my challenges.

Now at the age of 60, I don't work for money or any other rewards of compensation or benefits... I work towards testing my hypothesis, and I want them to be correct.

This drives me everyday, all day towards something to look forward. When I win, I brag about it and feel thrilled. When I lose, I introspect and kick myself... then move on to modify my hypothesis.

The cycle continues till Yamaka is called "upstairs one day" as my wife says!

That's my joy, my pain and my life!

Cheers.

 

[biswa]

I want to wake up everyday, and meet my challenges.

Now at the age of 60, I don't work for money or any other rewards of compensation or benefits... I work towards testing my hypothesis, and I want them to be correct.

This drives me everyday, all day towards something to look forward. When I win, I brag about it and feel thrilled. When I lose, I introspect and kick myself... then move on to modify my hypothesis.

Certainly, that is one way of doing it. And it is your prerogative to lead life on your own terms. But there are other ways as well. Consider the following verses from the Bhagavad Gita:

[h=1]“Treating pleasure and pain, gain and loss, victory and defeat alike, engage yourself in your duty.”[/h]
“One who has control over the mind is tranquil in heat and cold, in pleasure and pain, and in honor and dishonor; and is ever steadfast with the Supreme Self.”

Surely you will not begrudge someone who wants to lead his life using those principles.

 

[Yamaka]

Certainly, that is one way of doing it. And it is your prerogative to lead life on your own terms. But there are other ways as well. Consider the following verses from the Bhagavad Gita:

“Treating pleasure and pain, gain and loss, victory and defeat alike, engage yourself in your duty.”


“One who has control over the mind is tranquil in heat and cold, in pleasure and pain, and in honor and dishonor; and is ever steadfast with the Supreme Self.”

Surely you will not begrudge someone who wants to lead his life using those principles.

No.. I want Dear Sravna and others lead their own life.. I am a big believer in the Civil Rights and Personal Freedom of ALL peoples.

My only reservation is all that you cited is IMPRACTICAL, theological sayings..

......Pragmatically speaking, they have no value!

For example, the Great Vyasa was asking Lord Krishna - his Central Protagonist in the Epic MB - thru the words of Arjuna this

"Oh, Lord, you know everything in this world, you are in everything and in every living beings and ALL powerful... then WHY you ask me to kill my own blood relatives standing on the other side.... WHY can't you yourself with your Magic Wand do this very cruel JOB. Why do you drag me, the ordinary soul, into this SIN?"

Then, the mercurial Vyasa gets into his own explanation of "Duty or Karma etc" thru his creation of Lord Krishna!

What does this all tell you, in practical terms?

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Yamaka,

You have given the answer yourself! There is nothing left to be achieved if you are not affected by anything in the physical world and you become realized. Your sojourn in the physical world is over.

Having said that I am not saying I am unaffected by anything. Impressed by hindu philosophy I try to follow it and have seen its benefits first hand. When I say the joy in not being unaffected is more than any other joy I mean it. Because that joy is a joy of total fulfillment.

 

[geetu habibah]

Dear Mr Yamaka,

Forgive me if I am wrong because I am still new to forum but when I read your postings I get reminded of someone my brother knew when he was in Houston.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Mr Yamaka,

Forgive me if I am wrong because I am still new to forum but when I read your postings I get reminded of someone my brother knew when he was in Houston.

Hello gh:

Maybe, maybe not!

I am living in Houston since 1985!

Nice meeting you in this Forum. Please write about anything you like... I would very much like to know about you.

Folks: Please call me Y or just Yamaka, no Mr. no Sir no Ji, no Dr, no Prof or the like please... for I am just a regular Joe!

Cheers.

 

[geetu habibah]

Dear Yamaka,

Thank you for prompt reply.I have given a brief intro of myself in Forum yesterday under introduce yourself.I had mentioned that I am a member of ISKCON.
My unusual name is a combination of my mother's name Geeta and my father's name Habib.

I will try to post later.I am starting to like it here.

Regards.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Yamaka,

Thank you for prompt reply.I have given a brief intro of myself in Forum yesterday under introduce yourself.I had mentioned that I am a member of ISKCON.
My unusual name is a combination of my mother's name Geeta and my father's name Habib.


I will try to post later.I am starting to like it here.

Regards.

Hello gh:

Briefly, I am like your dad, perhaps... I am an Atheist married to an Agno-Theist (a Sweet and Smart Brahmin girl from Trichy, Tamil Nadu, India).

Ours is a happy Secular Home... I have a daughter (27) and a son (22). She went to Cornell and he to Stanford. She is an MD now, and he is going to Oxford next year after securing a Rhodes Scholarship a few days ago!

I would very much like to know why you are attracted to Krishna Consciousness, etc... Your point of view (POV) will be very useful to me... so far, my kids seem to be Secular... they don't talk much about God & Religion.

They go to Meenakshi Temple here in Houston when their mom goes, which is very infrequent once in about a month or longer... in the last 4-5 months they have not gone to the Temple for some unknown reasons!

Now they are all adults ... I don't have any objection whatsoever if they WANT to be God-fearing and religious, although I did not provide a religious environment to them... they never asked for, either.

Looking forward to know you more.

Cheers.

Y

 

[geetu habibah]

Dear Yamaka,

You indeed sound like my dad.He never really had a stand in life when it came to religion.
I cannot really say if he was an Atheist even though I had never seen him pray because he who was born a muslim,I always had a doubt that can a Muslim ever be an Atheist?
I guess I always viewed him with suspicion.

My mother I cannot say much.I felt that all these years may be she was a closet Hindu hiding from herself but had to project to the world a different image, the price one pays for marrying out of the religion.Anyway that is her problem not mine.

With regards to ISKCON, it was an inner calling.Hard to explain.No one told me anything much about religion at home but there was always the feeling of emptiness at home that some missing link feeling.
There was nothing we lacked but still some thing was missing.

I am happy that despite being born in a almost religionless home of secular parents my Lord Krishna came to me.Must have been my merit in my previous birth.

I like the Bhakti path of ISCKON which I feel right now is the best for me.
Bhakti can sometimes be even sweeter than liberation.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Yamaka,

You indeed sound like my dad.He never really had a stand in life when it came to religion.
I cannot really say if he was an Atheist even though I had never seen him pray because he who was born a muslim,I always had a doubt that can a Muslim ever be an Atheist?
I guess I always viewed him with suspicion.

My mother I cannot say much.I felt that all these years may be she was a closet Hindu hiding from herself but had to project to the world a different image, the price one pays for marrying out of the religion.Anyway that is her problem not mine.

With regards to ISKCON, it was an inner calling.Hard to explain.No one told me anything much about religion at home but there was always the feeling of emptiness at home that some missing link feeling.
There was nothing we lacked but still some thing was missing.

I am happy that despite being born in a almost religionless home of secular parents my Lord Krishna came to me.Must have been my merit in my previous birth.

I like the Bhakti path of ISCKON which I feel right now is the best for me.
Bhakti can sometimes be even sweeter than liberation.

Dear gh:

Very nice.

I said my wife is an Agno-Theist, meaning that she does not know clearly the meaning for the following most fundamental questions like:

1. Do you believe in the Super-Natural Agent called the God (Ishwara/Allah/Jesus or whatever name) somewhere in the Universe controlling ALL living beings including humans and other inanimate things in the Universe.

She will say "I don't know"... While I say with no hesitation "No, certainly NOT"

2. Do you believe in Janma Poorva Karma (the actions or behavior done in previous births)?

She will say "I don't know"... while I say with no hesitation "No, certainly NOT"

3. Do you believe that prayers, poojas and bhajans are heard by someone out there in the Universe, and a favor is reciprocated for them?

She will say "I don't know"... while I say with no hesitation "No certainly NOT". What PPB do is giving some sort of mental peace to the person who is doing it all TRANSIENTLY... nothing more nothing less.

Thus, I am an Atheist while she is Agnostic about all the above, but still out of tradition and some fear of the unknown, she goes to Temple whenever she feels like with kids or w/o them.

Certainly, she is not Superstitious, for she is a PhD in Biochemistry, a well accomplished Biochemist/Molecular Biologist.

Regarding a born Muslim can be an Atheist?

My POV is anyone can become an Atheist anytime, by answering the above questions sincerely without fear or prejudice.

Professionally, I am a Neuro-Scientist.. I am a Naturalist... I am a strong believer in Human Evolution: Certainly the world was not created AS IS with all the animals and plants and humans about 5000 years ago as most of the Religious books say.

I felt that I got my Liberation or Moksha when I became an Atheist at the age of around 20; in the last 40 years, I have not worshiped any God for anything... I did not feel like worshiping at all..

But there are plenty of questions Science Engineering & Technology - my profession - need to answer.

More later....

ps. I met my wife in the Graduate School in Madurai, Tamil Nadu. The chemistry between us brought us together! Lol.