Brahmin Girls Marrying (Attracted towards) NB Boys

[kunjuppu]

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Sir.. its arranged marriages in most communities.. the love marriages started happening largely only in the past few years..

Today, every caste people who studied in schools and colleges had left their customs and traditions, and adopting the european noble life style.. (ie, the urban life style).. in that urban life style, there is no culture or tradition followed.. its just living the luxury and comfort.. so the younger generation doesnt care about caste..

But i have few questions..

The vedas has been preserved for 5000 years by brahmins.. but today, most brahmin boys do not learn vedas.. who is going to take that forward?

Suppose a non-brahmin girl marries a brahmin boy, and he wants to perform sandya vandana and follow other customs.. is it possible? It may be possible, but what's the probability?

Suppose, a brahmin girl marries a vellalar boy who wants to do farming.. will she be able to work hard in the fields?

Let's leave all those.. a vellala boy will eat meat and have drinks.. will a brahmin girl cope up with that?

senthil,

i agree with anandb that you are a delight, and a breath of fresh air for some staid points of view, which was bordering malodourness.

what you have done, is to give legitimacy to certain traditional values, which, i a born tamil brahmin, have found loathsome. this knowledge, deep in my heart, came out of exposure to periyar.

initially i used to get upset, for i used to identify those harsh remarks from periyar against myself, even though, i was brought up in a predominantly christian neighourhood, and my best friend a hindu nadar.

a few years ago, in another forum, there was a similar discussion - the initiator of that thread in that forum, another lapsed brahmin, felt that it was time that brahmins retrospected over the denigrative effect of caste system over the ages.

ofcourse, this was a cannon fodder for the traditional brahmin haters, who i wish to say, still exist. hate someone, just because they are brahmins. interestingly, in that forum, there were too, defenders of the caste system, who were not brahmins.

it sparked once again periyar's call for reforms - i examined my life here in canada these past 30+ years and found that my values were much more radical than what even periyar envisaged.

i have been a madras boy all my life. so i did and do not know the harshness of caste in tamil nadu. but my ancestrage is from palghat and my holidays till 16th year used to be spent in a small kerala town.

my grandfather was a lawyer, and certain of his clients used to stand about 15 feet away, and talk to him, with the towel covering the mouth. sometimes i used to hear ulu-uluing in the street - and my grandma told me those were untouchables (i do not wish to spell the colloquial term she used).

so gradually the education began, and the horror of our enshrined inequality came to hit me over the years, and now, i do not think, anything will change in me, to consider our traditional values are crystal pure. i think, we are living in an age of enlightenment, and we should shed away what is not applicable (periyar again!!) and adopt only those that brings us all together as hindus.

true, periyar & MK, have villified hindus, hinduism and paarpaans as often and as forceful as they could. but it has been found, that the tamil hindus, have more adherence to tamil hinduism than what periyar or MK could break.

MK's own family goes to temples and performs archanais. stalin would never make the fiery speeches condemning religion the way MK would. i do not know about alagiri, but kanimozhi at times could swing towards periyar type of language, but still not so crudely.

the world has changed. whether they hate him or not, periyar has influenced every brahmin. nowadays even the மடி observing folks would hesitate to say ஒத்திப்போ, frightened, that the reaction may be a stream of abuse.

i think, the brahmin madams like kanchi, had at various points in the 20th century, to bring all hindus together - at our independence 1947 or start of the dravidian revolution 1967 or even milleniium 2000. they let those golden opportunities fritter away, because i think, their adherence to caste, is again, an exclusive brahmin centred hinduism, which i think, is no longer a selling proposition in the post 20th century world.

intermarriage - the biggest thorn in the fingers of the casteists - benevolent like yourself or otherwise. personally, i think, any marriage will succeed, if there are no interference or influence from relatives, parents, religious churches or mullahs.

i think that tamil brahmin girls are trophy wives for non brahmins. i may be wrong. but tamil brahmin boys are in no position to offer themselves as attractive alternatives for these girls or join the hunt and grad non brahmin girls. these boys are so much indoctrinated by their parents towards a single path of academic success, that they do not possess any other survival skills. much to their disappointment and disaster these days.

i used to have a madisar wearing aunt, who used to skin the chicken, chop it with cleavers, and make excellent kerala style coconut curried chicken. she did not eat meat. her daughter or sons did not. but her husband did and she cheerfully cooked it for him. so, in answer to your question, it all depends on the girl. if she does not want to, there should be no compulsion. as it would be, in the case, of any couple in love.

sorry for the long drawnout reply. i am just setting the stage for our future dialogues.

once again welcome here.

ps.. would you please write the name of the person that you are addressing the note.. so that we know whose post you have in mind, when you replied. hope you don't mind this. thanks.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Senthil,

Welcome. I am reading your posts with interest. I request you to stay after your debate/discussions with Sri.Nara. We may discuss about our society sometime in the future. Our opinions differ in some areas. But, I will wait; I am not in a hurry.

Cheers!

 

[senthil]

@pvraman

But why there is a shade of anger and enmity prevails when they come across the brahmin jati? or is there when they confront with other jatis as well?.

There are enmities among different jaatis .. but i can confidently say that there is no enmity b/w brahmins and other jaatis (including the dalit jaatis).. Its only the ideologues like DK and marxists who created this artificial enmity and thrived on it. During british, most of brahmins took to IAS and occupied various government posts, and this had united every one else..

I am sure You would be surprised to see the following link, where brahmins were kulagurus for many community..

?ொ?்?ு ?ு??ு?ு?்??்

Each gothram in our community have a kula guru, and i was able to trace my kula guru last year. I saw the old records and found that he had visited our village around 1930s. These kula gurus are adhi saiva sect, and we are the shishyas to them.
Totally we have 24 kulagurus for our kongu vellalar community.. each kula guru once had madams.. You can see the pattayams written by our forefathers some 800 years before accepting them as kula gurus. this link continued as late as 1950s. But due to heavy anti-brahminism, the link got broken and the kula guru became poor and unable to maintain their madams.

One of the kulaguru, had a document, where once they were unable to clear their debts, and informed their shishyas to find an alternate guru, and the shishyas came together contributed and saved the guru from the debt. There are still documents for these.

So please come out of the assumption that every one consider brahminsn as enemies.. indeed there were always healthy relationship b/w brahmins and many of the jaatis in india..

 

[senthil]

@kunjubbu sir,

If at all, we have to take example for progressive thoughts, its bharathiyar who is eligible for it. I dont agree with your thoughts on periyar..

The brahmins had practiced untouchability.. but do you feel, they are the only ones, who practice that?

Untouchability is universally practiced.. In my village, one of the dalit community wont drink water from other dalit community.. but both will get water from our house..

It is the vanniyars, devars, nadars and the EVR's own community Nayakkars, who actually enforced oppression of the dalits.. Most of caste clashes are b/w dalits and these 4 castes.. I will include my community also, but the clashes are mostly limited..

So, why did periyar never raised a finger against his own community, which he could very well had? What he did was utter cheap politics and nothing else..

I would like to like to have Bharathiyar to be a role model.. its he said "kaakkai kuruvi engal jaati".. his words are positive and powerful, and his attacks on backwardness are genuine and righteous..

intermarriage - the biggest thorn in the fingers of the casteists - benevolent like yourself or otherwise. personally, i think, any marriage will succeed, if there are no interference or influence from relatives, parents, religious churches or mullahs.

Sir.. i am not talking about success of marriages.. what i am debating is the social disturbances of such inter-caste marriages..

i think, the brahmin madams like kanchi, had at various points in the 20th century, to bring all hindus together - at our independence 1947 or start of the dravidian revolution 1967 or even milleniium 2000. they let those golden opportunities fritter away, because i think, their adherence to caste, is again, an exclusive brahmin centred hinduism, which i think, is no longer a selling proposition in the post 20th century world.

Sir.. hinduism is NOT a religion in itself.. Its a name to collectively denote all non-abrahamic religious sects of india... kanchi madam belongs to shaiva sect, and their primary duty is to follow shaiva agamas.. They were right in what they did..

i used to have a madisar wearing aunt, who used to skin the chicken, chop it with cleavers, and make excellent kerala style coconut curried chicken. she did not eat meat. her daughter or sons did not. but her husband did and she cheerfully cooked it for him. so, in answer to your question, it all depends on the girl. if she does not want to, there should be no compulsion. as it would be, in the case, of any couple in love.

I agree with you sir.. at individual level they can adjust.. at social level, its still a problem..

 

[senthil]

@Raghy

Thanks for your invite.. i would be happy to participate in further discussions. Since i am from a completely different background, mutual exchanges of our cultural experiences with brahmin community will be valuable.

 

[nachi naga]

wish we can have a goundamani from gounder's community too ( its a joke)

senthil sir,welcome.enjoy your contribution a lot.for the first time kanchi matham is being supported,that by itself is a miracle of sorts,hopefully sai baba mathas too will gain respectability and acceptance.

 

[vtv_ram9002]

Please understand that intercaste marriages are taking place due to the change in social systems and it is not confined to brahmin girls alone. Most of the love marriages are not emanating from true love but due to Infatuation. some of the ingredients of "Infatuation" are feelings of panic, uncertainty, overpowering lust, feverish excitement, impatience, and/or jealously.Marriages arising out of Infatuation generally do not last long .

 

[Nara]

Dear Senthil, Greetings!

...Brahmins consider even smelling Non-Veg as sin...

On what do you base this claim? Is it based on some canonical text? If so, I request you to furnish the relevant citation. Or, is it based on tradition of unknown origin? If it is tradition, then would you give a pass to any custom as long as it is a tradition? For example, would you permit Sati based on this logic?

.... Has any one tried asking a normal dalit (NOT ideological dalits) about brahmins drinking water from their house? They themselves will not give, and they will say "Saami.. you should not drink from our house"..

Now, from where do you get the authority to define who is "normal" and who is "ideological". From the juxtaposition of these terms I suppose for you being "ideological" is "abnormal". Why?

The problem is with the educated people, who have lot of pre-conceived notions imbibed through education..

So, are you saying that to achieve harmony we need to stop educating people? Or, perhaps you want to educate them in the "proper" way? If so, who gets to decide what that "proper" way is? You?

In this context I would like to share with you and others, one of N.S. Krishnan's classics, the story of Kindanar. It is a take on the story of Nandanar with a touch of Nachiketa. NSK makes a powerful and humorous presentation arguing that education is the key to abolishing the scrooge of untouchability. (The YouTube upload is taking too long, I will furnish the link after the upload is completed.)

Now coming to Brahmins Marrying Non-Brahmins, i would say, its the result of the faulted educational policy.. also, the brahmins lost the community living, and almost all are individualised.. as a result the brahmin way of life is under stress..

Change is inevitable. Being rank opportunists, most Brahmins did not hesitate a moment to abandon the old ways for the new, and for that, I say, way to go. I hope the NBs will learn this from the TBs.

The community living you speak of was designed for the benefit of the male, whether B or NB. For instance, the old tradition produced an army of what TBs "affectionately" call மொட்டை பாட்டி, some of whom were hardly out of teenage years. Each family had at least one such பாட்டி. They did not unite and organize any opposition -- for all appearances they led very spiritual lives.

Same is the case with the women folk in general. Their role in the most part was to produce children and take care of them and the husband. They did not unite and oppose the male hegemony. They seemed content, heck some even reveled in it visiting untold misery upon the Laksmi, aka daughter-in-law, who came into their household.

Outward tranquility is not the same as inward peace, love, and happiness.

I for one don't regret the demise of this so called male-dominated community living where the community is no more than a particular caste. For me, community is a group of people who share in the welfare of everyone in a geographical area irrespective of religion, gender, ethnicity, (and caste in Indian context). This is not some Utopian idea, I live in one such community -- not perfect but endeavoring to overcome division and suspicion.

Unless brahmins take steps at a community level, these cannot be avoided.. I am not a brahmin , and i myself is against intercaste marriage.. it collapses families..

What collapses families are ego, ignorance, suspicion, etc., not caste. அன்புக்கும் உண்டோ அடைக்கும் தாள்?

Cheers!

 

[senthil]

@nara

On what do you base this claim? Is it based on some canonical text? If so, I request you to furnish the relevant citation. Or, is it based on tradition of unknown origin? If it is tradition, then would you give a pass to any custom as long as it is a tradition? For example, would you permit Sati based on this logic?

I am basing this claim on the traditional brahmana and NOT elite brahmins.. why should we always look to texts or citations.. we still have our elders living , and we could ask them, if what i said is true.. Tradition usually evolves and dont have origin.. if it have origin and based on texts, its NOT tradition, but a religion..

Regarding Sati, i again challenge all existing notions about it.. In my opinion Sati is a noble virtue and unmatched one .. pls dont get shocked.. usually i get all slanderings after this statement, and i will wait for these slanderings to complete and then i will proceed explaining further in a separate thread..

Now, from where do you get the authority to define who is "normal" and who is "ideological". From the juxtaposition of these terms I suppose for you being "ideological" is "abnormal". Why?

Yes.. Being Ideological is always abnormal and takes us far away from pragmatism.. can we have this discussion in separate thread?
even a lay person can define who is ideological and who is NOT.. it doesnt need an authority.. any how, i will explain further if we have separate thread..

So, are you saying that to achieve harmony we need to stop educating people? Or, perhaps you want to educate them in the "proper" way? If so, who gets to decide what that "proper" way is? You?

Egzatly sir.. (deliberate mispelling.. fun intended ).. we need to stop this rotten education system.. on the question of "Proper way", we always have our native educational system to rely on and to decide.. In general, education should improve society.. NOT collapse it..
Again, this can be discussed in separate thread for clarity..

Change is inevitable. Being rank opportunists, most Brahmins did not hesitate a moment to abandon the old ways for the new, and for that, I say, way to go. I hope the NBs will learn this from the TBs.

It may be true in present situation.. but, what about some 100 or 200 years before? Do you say, brahmins on those days were also rank opportunists? Brahmins had temple centric life and their survival depended on temples.. when the temples are taken over by government, their support base is snatched, and left to the streets, what will they do? Do you expect them to die of starvation? To call them rank opportunists is something demeaning, in my humble opinion.. you are ignoring the pathetic situation they were left to in the past.. probably today's brahmins in cities may be well off, and may not know the real suffering their forefathers suffered..

Even today, given the chance, there are many brahmins (including brahmin youths), to take up priestly duty, and serve the temple they dear so much.. but will they be given any such opportunity? Is it not the oppression, where brahmins are NOT allowed to live a life they wish?

yet again.. i pefer to have this discussion on brahmins in separate thread..

Sir .. we can criticise brahmins.. but not demean them.. this is my humble request..

The community living you speak of was designed for the benefit of the male, whether B or NB.
...
..
Same is the case with the women folk in general. Their role in the most part was to produce children and take care of them and the husband. They did not unite and oppose the male hegemony
...
....
I for one don't regret the demise of this so called male-dominated community living where the community is no more than a particular caste. For me, community is a group of people who share in the welfare of everyone in a geographical area irrespective of religion, gender, ethnicity, (and caste in Indian context).

Sir.. these are all what i call as ideologies.. why its farther from pragmatism? bcoz, we ourselves imagine, the males oppressed females.. did we ever ask the females of the older times? how many traditional household mamis will say they were oppressed? If they dont feel oppressed, then who are we to project them as dominated or oppressed etc.. so we dont care what the concerned persons feel..

To quote an analogy, there can be mutual fight b/w me and my wife.. we both take it easily.. but my family will be disturbed, if some third person and comes and alleges that i am torturing my wife using harshwords..

 

[senthil]

@nara

The community living you speak of was designed for the benefit of the male, whether B or NB.

Sir.. yet again, this is some thing ideological.. can we have separate thread to discuss about community living? I may not have much knowledge about brahmin community life.. but i certainly have much info about community living of my own.. so generalisation on your part may not be right.. we can discuss in separate thread sir..

 

[happyhindu]

@nara
I am basing this claim on the traditional brahmana and NOT elite brahmins.. why should we always look to texts or citations.. we still have our elders living , and we could ask them, if what i said is true.. Tradition usually evolves and dont have origin.. if it have origin and based on texts, its NOT tradition, but a religion..

Senthil, You are a passionate young man. I respect that.

However, you use terms like traditional brahmana and elite brahmana. For dimwits like me, these intended meaning of these terms are not forthcoming easily in your post. So, please can you explain the diff b/w traditional and elite brahmins?

Have you read the dharmashastras? Are you aware, that the smartha tradition considers the smrithis to the basis of their tradition?

we need to stop this rotten education system.. on the question of "Proper way", we always have our native educational system to rely on and to decide.. In general, education should improve society.. NOT collapse it..
Again, this can be discussed in separate thread for clarity..

And have you asked the folks whose most-recent-ancestors were scavengers and cleaners, what do they want? Do they want to go back to their old professions?

Even today, given the chance, there are many brahmins (including brahmin youths), to take up priestly duty, and serve the temple they dear so much.. but will they be given any such opportunity? Is it not the oppression, where brahmins are NOT allowed to live a life they wish?

Who is not allowing brahmins to live a life as they wish? They themselves seek green pastures. As per the stipuations of the shastras, the brahmana of yore was not even allowed to accumulate for the next day. The brahmins then were poor, but content. Today's brahmins only claim that they wud starve, but the truth is that they do not want to live life as the old brahmins of yore. Even now, ask a brahmin youth, to leave everything, and live a simple spiritual life -- is he willing to do that?

 

[uvsharma]

@pvraman



There are enmities among different jaatis .. but i can confidently say that there is no enmity b/w brahmins and other jaatis (including the dalit jaatis).. Its only the ideologues like DK and marxists who created this artificial enmity and thrived on it. During british, most of brahmins took to IAS and occupied various government posts, and this had united every one else..

I am sure You would be surprised to see the following link, where brahmins were kulagurus for many community..

?ொ?்?ு ?ு??ு?ு?்??்

Each gothram in our community have a kula guru, and i was able to trace my kula guru last year. I saw the old records and found that he had visited our village around 1930s. These kula gurus are adhi saiva sect, and we are the shishyas to them.
Totally we have 24 kulagurus for our kongu vellalar community.. each kula guru once had madams.. You can see the pattayams written by our forefathers some 800 years before accepting them as kula gurus. this link continued as late as 1950s. But due to heavy anti-brahminism, the link got broken and the kula guru became poor and unable to maintain their madams.

One of the kulaguru, had a document, where once they were unable to clear their debts, and informed their shishyas to find an alternate guru, and the shishyas came together contributed and saved the guru from the debt. There are still documents for these.

So please come out of the assumption that every one consider brahminsn as enemies.. indeed there were always healthy relationship b/w brahmins and many of the jaatis in india..

Mr Senthil,

Since you have quoted extensively from Thirumoolar's Thirumanthiram, I would like to add the following.

Thirumoolar is the second poet after Agasthiar deputed by Lord Shiva in Mount Kailash to contribute for Bakthi literature in Tamil.

Agasthiar came from Mount Kailash and obtained Tamil Language from Lord Muruga at Thiruthani

Lord Muruga is only known as `God of Tamil', `தமிழ் கடவுள்

Lord Muruga has participated himself directly in the proceedings of Tamil Sangams at Madurai.

Lord Muruga has married a tribal girl வள்ளி குறத்தி `Valli Kurathi' and has shown that he is above caste discriminations.

Lord Shiva also argued with Poet Nakkeerar before the Pandian King and proved that he is very much attached to the Tamil Language.

Thirumoolar has written ஒன்றே குலம் ஒருவனே தேவன் There is only one Human Sect and there is only one God. It is the greatest statement made by the second poet in Tamil Language abolishing the castes & divisions and DMK founder Annadurai has accepted it without any hesitation. Bharathiar is a later poet but Thirumoolar is one of the oldest poets in Tamil who united all Tamilians without caste discrimination.

Few more poems of Thirumoolar are really wonderful.

உள்ளம் ஒருபெருங்கோயில் ஊனுடம்பு ஆலயமாம் வள்ளல் பிரானார்க்கு வாய் கோபுர வாசல் தெள்ளதெளிந்தாற்கு ஜீவன் சிவலிங்கம் கன்னபுலன் ஐந்தும் கானாமனிவிளக்கே




Our mind is the biggest temple.Human body is the seat of God. Mouth is the entrance. For those who are enlightened `Lord Shiva is the Jeevan' All the five organs are lamps in the temple.


உள்நாடி ஒளிபெற உள்ளே நோக்கினார் கண்ணாடி போல கலந்து நின்றானே

If you look within yourself, you can see God just like you see yourself in a mirror.

I wish people look into the Saiva Bakthi Literature particualrly Thirumoolar's Thirumanthiram before coming to any conclusion about existence of caste system.

There was difference between Saivaites and Vaishnavites and Aadhi Sankara united all of them in the ninth century AD under one roof. Since Adhi Sankara belongs to present day Kerala, he has not done anything to Tamil Literature.

Ramanujar came in 11th Century AD and tried to divide Hindu religion by forming a separate Vaishava faith followers but could not do much of damage to the unity of Hindu religion. Inspite of being born at Sri Perumbudhur,he has not composed anything in Tamil and did his work only in Sanskrit.

Some our members here look everything from Vaishnavite Tamil Literature angle which is not giving `True Tamil Culture'. Vaishanavite Tamil Literature is minuscule as compared to the total Tamil Literature.

My intention is not to divide Saiva and Vaishava faiths but I am forced to answer since some people are trying to project Vaishavite Tamil Literature as the only authoritative source here.

 

[happyhindu]

Sir.. its interesting.. may i know which dharma shastra allows consumption of meat? and do they allow consumption of beaf also?

Please read this: http://www.hinduwebsite.com/sacredscripts/hinduism/dharma/baudh1.asp#1.12 Baudhyana's Dharmashastra

Goat, Sheep, Hare, Iguana, Hedgehog, Tortise, Rhinocerous, Antelope. Buffalo, Deer, Wild Boar, Blue-Rock Pigeon, Peacock, cerain fishes were permitted for the consumption of the dwijas (the twice-born men, including brahmins).

This is Vashista's Dharmashastra:
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/sacredscripts/hinduism/dharma/vash2.asp#ch14 : Hare, Iguana, Hedgehog, Tortise, you can read more there.

This is Manusmrithi, the sacred code of conduct that is considered infallible by orthodox brahmins :
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/sacredscripts/hinduism/dharma/manusmriti_1.asp : Read the chapter 4 to see the list of foods permitted. Even the Porcupine was allowed for consumption (yes, hold your breath -- who do you think are the people eating such stuff today).

And this is Apasthamba's Sutra, commonly followed in the telugu regions: http://www.hinduwebsite.com/sacredscripts/hinduism/dharma/apasta1.asp#1.5.17 Bull's flesh is fit for offering and milch-cows were allowed for consumption.

I agree to your point.. brahmins would have adopted vegetarianism to counter jainism.. but can we say its on ideological basis and NOT for appealing masses.. It should be for appealing the rulers.. Secondly, i think its NOT brahminism which took on jainism.. rather its the bhakthi movement which took on jainism in tamilnadu.. (Please correct me if i am wrong).. Can we say, its only in the bhakthi movement, the vegetarianism would have adopted?
More over, bhakthi movement had participants from all communities.. How many nayanmars are brahmins?

So in my opinion, its NOT just for image sake.. but a restructure of the life style based on the bhakthi movements..

Whats wrong in that purity? In my community, eating beef will lead to excommunication from the caste.. its one of the gravest sin.. (few decades back.. not now ) .. one will lose the status of kudiyanavan, if he kills a cow or eats beef..

Senthil, i think you are not understanding me correctly. I did not say for image's sake.

What i am trying to say is that the brahmins adopted vegetarianism allright, but in some brahmins it has served to create a ideology of superiority due to diet in the present times.

When the shastras themselves do not seem to necessarily consider diet as a unit of measurement for superiority, why do some brahmins tend to use it as such?

Am i supposed to consider someone superior, or put him on a high pedestal, on the basis of his diet? And am i supposed to putdown a shudra, dalit or tribal guy and brand him inferior for his non-veg diet?

Unfortunately, Senthil, i find the dharmashastras primitive, out-dated and inapplicable in modern times. Why, i have not even heard of the lowest of the low tribals eating porcupine, hedgehod, and what not.

[PS: personally, to me, a vegetarian diet is the healthiest. And i mean to say healthy on health grounds, not based on religious superiority. As such, what my personal opinions are seperate from what i express here].

I think, here purity is associated with racial purity.. its not.. purity refers to cultural purity, and i feel, there's nothing harm in that.. Even if brahmins felt superior, what's wrong in that.. in my opinion, they deserve to be superior.. did brahmins started persecuting others who ate meat? Never.. they only kept themselves away from others.. and that's why, its for all other castes to easily discriminate and offend brahmins, because there would be no physical retaliation..

Sir.. the higher caste and lower caste is a very complex subject, which we can discuss in separate forum.. but in my view, its pretty much logical to connect diet with superiority.. because diet influences character and in traditional indian society, those who have noble qualities are considered superior and high..
Again, the term superiority should not be equated with racial.. here by superiority, it means cultural.. As a velala, i myself accept the superiority of the brahmins in terms of character, and life style.. I cannot follow that life, nor any of my community members..

Yes no probs with that superiority (and please read my posts carefully without jumping to your own conclusions -- because i did not say racial things here and you have given an explanation on it). Sure you can accept some brahmins as superior, so do i. But how about those who cannot?

And let me ask what will you do if you were a dalit? If you are traditionally a scavenger, or a cobbler, are you willing to follow your traditional occupations today? If a brahmanical guru says that as a shudra you must be denied education and entry into temples, are you willing to accept that?

Sir.. i did not intend to offend you.. i am sorry if i appeared like that.. what i meant is that by stating that vegetarianism is used for discriminating lower caste, we are imposing a malign intent on the forefathers.. to quote an analgoy, one may beat me out of spontaneous anger, but if i say, he intendly attacked me, then its imposing malign intent..

Senthil, This is an open frank discussion. I too have opinions on some of my posts and consider them outright bad.

However, I request you to keep your personal opinions of others posts, and of "maligning", 'condeming", anger, etc aside and see for yourself in a dispassionate way if the points being discussed are true or untrue.

Sir.. we can understand if we look at the fundamental purpose of vegetarianism, and how older generations of brahmins viewed it.. Vegetarianism is a religious following.. brahmins follow this only for religious purpose.. am i right? or is there any brahmins from older generation, who followed vegetarianism just for discriminating others?

Lets take the priests.. for what purpose he is following vegetarianism? is it for discriminating others? Can a priest have power to discriminate? Suppose, if there is no one to discriminate, will he discard vegetarianism?

Senthil,

By talking about vegetarianism, i was trying to show how sensibilites can change in just a few centuries or a few years. And how our mind can mistake such things for religious superiority. That, however does not mean that folks must switch to a non-veg diet. Our sensibilites have grown better, and we recognize the health benefits of vegetarianism today without necessarily ascribing a spiritual stance to it. And that is all there is to the discussion on diet.

Regarding priests, i think they are the only true brahmins of today. They live their life and profession in service of God. And they are truly deserving of all the support anyone can give.

No, they do not discriminate. I myself have seen priests at a temple in Kumbakonam allowing very shabby looking people (possibly tribals) into the temple. Infact, i wish they were empowered more to decide on certain things.

I dread to think what will happen if they too quit their professions and move into secular vocations. Already the quitters have created enuf social polarization based on ideolgies..

Regards.

 

[s5surya]

sir

when you go to shop, you select the vegetables and provisions which you like. So when i don't like another, it is my personal liberty to choose or not to choose. it is not touch or untouch. it is purely a personal desire and it is not the parents, who always guide guide their saplings. ? If a brahmin girl weds a nb groom, she should get detached from the brahminism and should not advertise in the matrimonial that they want a brahmin girl/boy for their wards. 'QUOTE " men may come and men may go but I go on forever" - unquote :william wordsworth's words are for brahmins and brahminism in India specially for tamil brahmins - i am proud that I am tamil brahmin and will be so till my death ?

let wiser counsel prevails upon all of us to safeguard our community?

LET ALMIGHTY WILL ALL OF US TO SAVE OUR COMMUNITY!

 

[senthil]

@uvsharma

Thirumoolar has written ஒன்றே குலம் ஒருவனே தேவன் There is only one Human Sect and there is only one God. It is the greatest statement made by the second poet in Tamil Language abolishing the castes & divisions and DMK founder Annadurai has accepted it without any hesitation. Bharathiar is a later poet but Thirumoolar is one of the oldest poets in Tamil who united all Tamilians without caste discrimination.

Sir.. i am reproducing the entire song below..

ஒன்றே குலமும் ஒருவனே தேவனும்
நன்றே நினைமின் நமனில்லை நாணாமே
சென்றே புகும் கதி இல்லை நும் சித்தத்து
நின்றே நிலைபெற நீர் நினைந்து உய்மினே.

But thirumoolar is a shaiva saint.. when he says "ஒருவனே தேவனும" , he mentions about the god shiva.. this is intended for uniting all shaiva bhaktas and saints during bhakthi movement.. Should we take this song, which is written by a shaiva saint for shaiva bhaktas as universal?

For vaishnavites, ஒருவனே தேவனும் indicates the God Vishnu..

But today many people mis-interpret it in various ways.. and particularly, this is used against all sub-religions of hinduism.. particularly, its used to subvert people, to leave their practices and traditions.. in my view, this is one of the most powerful psychological attack on us.. If we leave our family tradition, we will become void.. and it is in this voidness, that other religions step in and fill..

More over, ஒன்றே குலமும் ஒருவனே தேவனும் is not for abolishing jaatis... its for uniting people from different jaatis .. they did not attempt to destroy the jaatis.. Did they?

Generally, when people do archana, the priest will ask for "Gothra".. if people do not know their gothra, then the priest will chant archanas in the name of shiva gothram.. how do we interpret this?

In my understanding, there are two major classification of jaatis.. Arya Jaati and Dasa Jaati.. Arya means noble .. ie, those ruling jaatis, who practice higher order of life code are termed as arya jaatis.. they have kulam and gothram clearly demarcated..
Dasa jaatis are the ones who undertake various other professions.. Many of these dasa jaatis to my knowledge, do not have kulam and gothram.. They only have family temples..

During bhakthi movements, the religion is taken to each and every village.. and to even the common man.. in such case, the shaiva saints had included all those jaatis which does not have gothra structure as shiva gothram..
This is my understanding based on discussion with various people.. Please correct me if i am wrong..

There was difference between Saivaites and Vaishnavites and Aadhi Sankara united all of them in the ninth century AD under one roof.

I heard that when adishankara went all over india, he found around 72 sects.. he grouped all these in to sanmathams.. (smartham, shaivam, vaishnavam, sooktham, skandam, ganapadiyam) .. He did not unite all of them..

The concept of unity is something trivial.. First of all why should we unite? in what way should we unite? Does unity means, we have to leave all our present identities?

 

[nachi naga]

hh,

Have you read the dharmashastras? Are you aware, that the smartha tradition considers the smrithis to the basis of their tradition?

vaishnavas,shaivaites,brahmaaites(abrahamic faith) consider smrithis to the basis of their tradition,its unfair to name or cite smarthas only.

And have you asked the folks whose most-recent-ancestors were scavengers and cleaners, what do they want? Do they want to go back to their old professions?

the folks who do cleaning & scavenging works,if they get paid,say $3000/month,have a comfortable life of driving a car,educating their children in schools,dressing well,society treats them with dignity,they do not smell of garbage,are given proper tools to do their jobs,i believe dignity of labor in its truest sense,then a scavenger & cleaners sons daughters would gladly continue to do their proffession.is the respectability,that is lacking or in want,thats the stigma,which needs to be eradicated,imho.

Who is not allowing brahmins to live a life as they wish? They themselves seek green pastures. As per the stipuations of the shastras, the brahmana of yore was not even allowed to accumulate for the next day. The brahmins then were poor, but content. Today's brahmins only claim that they wud starve, but the truth is that they do not want to live life as the old brahmins of yore. Even now, ask a brahmin youth, to leave everything, and live a simple spiritual life -- is he willing to do that?

this is one of the famous double-speak of non-brahmin community.my family is a brahmin zamindari family.even today,i have lands,and my family employs labor,as farming is our main rice-winning members of the community.my family member is a sitting mla/mlc from the region.temples are existing in our control even today.brahmin priests are accorded all respect in their job.veda patashalas are being funded by our family in kanchipuram.we do beeksha-vandanam to sages of kanchi even today.

When the shastras themselves do not seem to necessarily consider diet as a unit of measurement for superiority, why do some brahmins tend to use it as such?

it all depends upon which sampradayam,thereby which smrithi.originally all brahmanas,kshathriyas,vaishyas,shudras ate all foods,including beef,mutton,fish,etc.owing to onslaught of jainism,brahminins were delegated to eat only vegetarian food.but even then kshathrias could not protect the brahmins or vaishyas or shudras and lost all wars in India,and let Mughals & British Christians to rule for 1200 years untill August 15,1947.

@ uvs

Lord Muruga is only known as `God of Tamil', `தமிழ் கடவுள்

from orissa up North/east/west of India,LOrd Karthik or karthikeya is how lord murugan is addressed.Lord Shiva/Shakthi,is the first of the Saguna BRahman manifestation of the trinity of forces/god.Lord Shiva is the destroyer aspect of avidya or ignorance.Thereby allowing lord brahmaa the creator aspect to flourish.Thereby allowing the sustainer aspect of Lord Vishnu to flourish.All the three flourish only because of the potent goddesses viz parvathy,saraswathy,lakshmi.

My intention is not to divide Saiva and Vaishava faiths but I am forced to answer since some people are trying to project Vaishavite Tamil Literature as the only authoritative source here.

as i wrote earlier,lord shiva is the first manifestation.then only lord brahmaa.then only lord vishnu.so,naturally vaishnavaism or sri vaishnavaism,is a latter day/night origin only.this is no way diminishing the authority of lord shiva or lord brahmaa or lord vishnu,imho.

@ senthil,

you are 120 percent correct,when you cite thirumoolar.he meant only lord shiva as oruvanay deivam...etc.therefore the trinity of forces,lord shiva lord brahmaa lord vishnu are the three sampradayams even today.i add lord brahmaa's sampradayams as abrahamic faiths too into sanathana dharma fold,maybe the only guy in earth to claim such a belief.as the abrahamic faith will never ever accept my version of ekam sath viprah bahu vadanthi in toto.

 

[kunjuppu]

nachi,

namma s.v.shekar familyaa?

re brahmin zamindars - one query if you don't mind. how did they come about being zamindars? appointed by the british and given grants of lands? Please do not treat this as intrusive to your family, but more a curiosity as to how the zamin system started.

especially for brahmins. it is a broad based question.

also i understand if you do not wish to reply to this.


thanks.

 

[nachi naga]

nachi,

namma s.v.shekar familyaa?

last i knew shekar living in mandavelipakkam in one of the trust cross road or streets .

re brahmin zamindars - one query if you don't mind. how did they come about being zamindars? appointed by the british and given grants of lands? Please do not treat this as intrusive to your family, but more a curiosity as to how the zamin system started.

the family sources cite,we became brahmins to avoid being killed,as we are descendants of raja parambarai.but became totally identified with brahminism,and one of the saptha rishi initiated us,in way of life.a convert would be a apt word.so,zamin was part of our heritage.killing people for dharma is our way of life.just as how lord krishna extols lord arjuna to pick up the weapons and kill even if its own kith & kin,for the sake of dharma.

especially for brahmins. it is a broad based question.

also i understand if you do not wish to reply to this.


thanks.

hope my answere were good enuff.

 

[kunjuppu]

thanks nachi.

 

[Nara]

Dear Senthil, Greetings!

If you wish to discuss anything under a separate thread please feel free to create one. Select a forum and look for the "+ Post New Thread" button at the top of the screen.

Senthil, from what you have posted so far I get a feeling you value your tradition, and what that tradition is, must be determined by the testimony of the clan elders, not any text. This is alright for your personal conduct, but in a discussion like this, we cannot restrict ourselves to just what you consider as valid source of knowledge.

To me, direct observation is also an authentic source of knowledge, by this I mean systematic observation and study. Another source of knowledge is logical inference, but this may have some limitations. Direct oral testimony can also form part of authentic knowledge, but it is tainted by the limitations of personal prejudice, fading memory, imperfect recall, etc.

I think we need to examine all sources of knowledge critically before admitting authenticity. In this respect, much of what you state cannot be accepted as valid in general. They may be valid for you and may wish to fashion your conduct on that basis, and that is fine. But, for others to accept them as valid, you have to do better than just state them. Here are some examples of such statements from you. I have highlighted the purely opinion part of the statements.

• Tradition usually evolves and dont have origin.
• Being Ideological is always abnormal and takes us far away from pragmatism (aside: what you consider as ideological is also just your opinion)
• we need to stop this rotten education system.
• on the question of "Proper way", we always have our native educational system to rely on and to decide. (aside: our "native" educational system may be the "proper" way for you, but not necessarily for others, and that was my point, who decides what is "proper"?
• Brahmins [...] their survival depended on temples.
• we ourselves imagine, the males oppressed females.

Anyway, with differing epistemology this discussion is doomed to go in circles.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

the family sources cite,we became brahmins to avoid being killed,as we are descendants of raja parambarai.but became totally identified with brahminism,and one of the saptha rishi initiated us,in way of life.a convert would be a apt word.so,zamin was part of our heritage.killing people for dharma is our way of life.just as how lord krishna extols lord arjuna to pick up the weapons and kill even if its own kith & kin,for the sake of dharma.

NN, if you don't mind -- your family became brahmins from which caste originally? and descendents of which raja?

 

[senthil]

@happyhindu

However, you use terms like traditional brahmana and elite brahmana. For dimwits like me, these intended meaning of these terms are not forthcoming easily in your post. So, please can you explain the diff b/w traditional and elite brahmins?

Elite brahmins are those who had english education, who adopted english life styles, who dont know sanskrit, who do not perform sandhya vandhana, and who call themselves modernists opposing traditional customs, who speak secularism.. In short, elite brahmins are those who are birth brahmin but do not follow any of the brahmin life style..

Traditional brahmins are those, who do daily sandhya vandhana, who follow brahminic life code, and many other things..

There are brahmins who are intermediate b/w these two, at varying levels..

And have you asked the folks whose most-recent-ancestors were scavengers and cleaners, what do they want? Do they want to go back to their old professions?

Sir.. do you know, night soil cleaners, scavengers, sewage cleaners, are all NOT part of our caste system.. They are part of the modern urban system.. So, they are the issues to be handled by the urban people and NOT by jaati system..

If you want proof, then i will ask a simple question.. The jaati system is predominant only rural villages.. Have you ever seen any sewage system, toilets in any of the villages some 20 yrs before? IF there is no such system, then how can scavengers and cleaners could have existed?

I have written a separate post on the topic "Dalits and Menial Jobs - who forced them"..
Dalits and Menial Jobs – who forced them? « Senthilraja’s blog

 

[senthil]

Who is not allowing brahmins to live a life as they wish? They themselves seek green pastures. As per the stipuations of the shastras, the brahmana of yore was not even allowed to accumulate for the next day.

Sir.. when britishers dominated india, they took over all temples managed by brahmins.. the brahmins became slave workers to the temples.. The endowment act of 1892 is still in force, and the government is in full control of all temples..

So to your question, it should be government which is NOT allowing brahmins to live their life style. But, if we look at more carefully, it is the extreme hatred towards jaati system exhibited both at political level and academic level, which is NOT allowing not just brahmins, but almost all jaatis unable to live the life of their own..

There were brahmin agraharams exclusively for brahmins so that they can manage their agraharam as per their tradition and customs.. Today, in the name of individual rights, how many such agraharams were being encroached by other caste people.. chicken stall, industries, and other encroachments which make a brahminic life style impossible..

the saddest part is instead of questioning these, the brahmins have become self-abashing permanently lost in guilt feeling..

In US, there are community settlements, where the particular community can set rules and regulations for the houses in their area.. i remember reading a news, that hindus in a US city is unable to build a temple, because the community administration is NOT giving no-objecting certification..

In india, this is not possible.. When brahmins attempt to create exclusive brahmin settlements, what will be the reaction from government? When christian community can have exclusive christian settlements, when they can have exclusive school for christian students, why NOT a brahmin, or a vellala community have exclusive school or residential area for them? We all understand that brahmin life style is different, vellalar life style is different and its logical to have exclusive schools for them..

Will the government allow? Or will the academics allow? Will the ideologists allow?

 

[senthil]

@happyhindu

What i am trying to say is that the brahmins adopted vegetarianism allright, but in some brahmins it has served to create a ideology of superiority due to diet in the present times.

i agree to this.. do you have any idea, from when this sense of superiority entered? which section of brahmins have this?

in my opinion, it is only after british domination (Yes sir.. one more blame on britishers ) this kind of superiority affected those brahmins who undertook government jobs on those times..
how?

We all know racial superiority existed among britishers.. when they dominated india, they looked for superior races in india for administrative jobs.. as a result, those brahmins who opted for those jobs, started claiming themselves to be superior so that they have higher chance of getting jobs.. Its not just brahmins.. Every community rushed to claim themselves as superior, so that they also get government jobs..

Since later, the britishers depended on brahmin interlocutors to document various aspects of india, this kind of superirority became documented..

As i said earlier, the vegetarianism is NOT for superiority.. rather, when brahmins attempted to project them as superior, vegetarianism came as a handy tool..

When the shastras themselves do not seem to necessarily consider diet as a unit of measurement for superiority, why do some brahmins tend to use it as such?

Am i supposed to consider someone superior, or put him on a high pedestal, on the basis of his diet? And am i supposed to putdown a shudra, dalit or tribal guy and brand him inferior for his non-veg diet?

Thuglag editor Cho has written in one of his article, that smritis are time bound and there are various smritis and shastras written from time to time.. I think, this should be true, as you yourself had quoted around four smritis..

We are not book based religion, so as to follow each and every line of the book to the core.. i am not relying on shastras.. rather, i am relying on traditions that is carried by successive generations..

In one way, these shastras are applicable only to those brahmanas who have to learn vedas.. am i right?

Btw, i dont know why you held eating porcupine as lowest.. in tamil, its called "mullam panri" ..

I havent heard eating porcupine.. but i have eaten meats of Rats (Eli) , perukkans, muyals .. .. these are available in our fields in abundant..

Sure you can accept some brahmins as superior, so do i. But how about those who cannot?

For those who cannot accept brahmins as superior, let them NOT accept.. who is going to force them to accept?

Superiority complex is common every where.. arent there superiority complex exhibited by modern day professionals like doctors, engineers etc..

To quote a simple example, how do we the rural village people? Dont we think them as backward?

Regarding priests, i think they are the only true brahmins of today. They live their life and profession in service of God. And they are truly deserving of all the support anyone can give.

No, they do not discriminate. I myself have seen priests at a temple in Kumbakonam allowing very shabby looking people (possibly tribals) into the temple. Infact, i wish they were empowered more to decide on certain things.

I dread to think what will happen if they too quit their professions and move into secular vocations. Already the quitters have created enuf social polarization based on ideolgies..

I completely agree with you.. when i was in chennai, i used to accompany a uzhavarapani group (run by professionals) to visit dilipated temples.. the group name is REACH, and the details can be found at TEMPLES REVIVAL ..

In one of the temple in uttiramerur, (kailasanathar temple), there was one officiated brahmin, who lived nearby.. he said, he was given a paltry sum of 500rs per month, and that too, it was withheld for past 5 years.. contrarily, the salary of the HRE&CE officer is 17000 per month..
I was pained to hear this and in one way enraged too..
After that, in all temples i go, i would offer atleast 10rs note and some times 100rs note depending on availability.. I no more resent or bargain to spend 1000s for homams..

but, these monetary assistance is secondary.. the problem of those priests are, the social isolation.. when the co-brahmins leave their acharams and pursue materialistic life with high paying jobs, they automatically have that psychological pressure.. Even more acute problem is that the priests dont get bride, as present day brahmin girls dont like to marry them..

Those brahmins who moved abroad, or moved to cities, should come forward and interact with these priests and give them the hope and confidence needed for them to continue doing their profession..

Its not just to brahmins.. in my community, those who do agriculture, will never get a bride no matter, how much they earn in farming.. there are many who are unmarried even at 40 yrs.. many of our community people are lorry drivers and today, they also dont get bride.. these people go to kerala, pay around 30000 to 50000 and get a bride..

The same is the case with many other communities..

The reason for such a situation is the extreme ostracisation of caste, at government policy level, academic level, and at intellectual level..

There is one simple rule.. any one doing their traditional profession will undergo all kinds of suffering..

 

[Iyyarooraan]

There had been tens of thousands of Brahmins who were broadminded doing yeomen service to the society at large. There are thousands of brahmins who look out for help. There are still tens of thousands of non-brahmins who need and look for help from Arumugams. Others speak against brahmins because it is politics; why do you get into the uncovered mire. If you are a brahmin you can still help a brahmin or a non-brahmin. To call yourself a brahmin is not autocracy. Please forget these mud-slingings and go about what you want to you. As for the girls marrying non-tamilbrahmins, it is unfortunate for the community, but then the paradise is theirs and let them go the whole hog. The power above is making the moves. Let us watch His/Her/Their(!) Thiruvilayaadals.