Brahmin Girls Marrying (Attracted towards) NB Boys

[senthil]

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@sangom..

What i infer from your wikipedia entry is that ambedkar was NOT prevented to get education.. all your accusation was that he was NOT allowed to sit inside, NOT shared water, not shared dias etc which i agree any way.. but still you could not prove, that he was actually prevented to study..

and that's what i wanted to highlight here, my lords .. rest of my points in my reply to happy hindu..

 

[Nara]

...What i infer from your wikipedia entry is that ambedkar was NOT prevented to get education.. all your accusation was that he was NOT allowed to sit inside, NOT shared water, not shared dias etc which i agree any way.. but still you could not prove, that he was actually prevented to study..

and that's what i wanted to highlight here, .

Dear Senthil, from Wikipedia, and other biographies I have read of Bhabasaheb Ambedkar, what I infer is, if a Dalit is given a chance and has the sympathy and support of people in power, he/she will achieve anything, and, even if you ascend to the top of your game, you will still encounter ugly and degrading treatment if you are a Dalit.

Today, nobody can openly stop a Dalit from education. It is the constitution of India that dismantled the social laws that kept most Dalits from even the most basic literacy and education. If this protection is not available, and if jati rules guide the way we live, Dalits would be prevented from any sort of education, and further, they would be made to believe that they are intrinsically incapable of education.

And FYI, the Indian constitution is modeled after the western notion of individual liberty and freedom. When I say this, there are people in this forum who jump to the conclusion I am disparaging the achievements of our forefathers in ancient Bharath. This is just utter nonsense. Saying that there are good things we can learn and emulate from the west is not the same as saying our ancients in Bharath were all fools and did not achieve anything. This must be obvious, but much to my chagrin, I notice that many here are logic challenged.

Going further, unfortunately, the protection offered by the Constitution still remains distant and weak in many to most small towns and villages. Innocent children experience horrendous (I don't know how else to characterize young children who are made to clean toilets and made to sit separately in school) treatment.

Senthil, from what you have written so far I get a feeling your views are narrowly focused on an imagined glorious past for the varna/jati system. Ans, instead of addressing the core issues you are nibbling at the edges. You are nice fellow, but my interest in what you are saying is waning fast. Unless you address the core issues head-on I am unlikely respond. We can still be friends and talk about SV and Shaiva etc., in other threads.

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

Innocent children experience horrendous (I don't know how else to characterize young children who are made to clean toilets and made to sit separately in school) treatment.

nara,

congratulations,for fabricating this with your fertile mind.not in modern India at least,of course some weirdo links will be there to justify your writings,that i am sure.

 

[happyhindu]

HH,

My impression is that Sankara gave shape to the Dasnami order of sanyasis and there is a subtle (untold) gradation among the ten titles going from Tirtha to Indrasarasvati (lowest to the highest). The title is given by the guru to the sishya at the time of the latter becoming the junior head of the Matham / when any other person is declared as a sanyasi, depending on the level of spiritual eminence/realization of the person concerned as judged by the guru. While Dayananda of the Aryasamaj fame was mere "saraswathi", the other guru you mention is "indra saraswathi", the highest among the Dasnami order. Hence one may have to seek the opinion of other "indra saraswathi" sanyasins. Am I correct? You may know better.

Dear Sri Sangom Sir,

AFAIK (which is very limited and based only on interaction of mine and a few others with some dashanamis of various orders), there is no gradation whatsoever; although folks (ardent shishyas) do claim so.

These "orders" (like swami, saraswati, tirtha, etc) are just sampradayas by themselves with variations in their set of beleifs. Since Bharati is another name in the Vedas for Saraswati (river), both Bharati and Saraswati are not considered diff from each other. AFAIK, there is no gradation within Saraswati order itself.

Sri Adi Shankara (tried to) put Saraswati, Puri and Bharati orders together with Shringeri Mutt since these 3 sampradayas share the same (or fairly similar) set of beliefs wrt to stuff like death rites, approch to sanyasa (ex: they remove the sacred thread upon accepting sanyasa), and so on. Plus they all wear orange robes. However, the affiliation of the Ekadandis with Shankara's mutts exist only in name. The various sanyasa orders (like Saraswati, Bharati, etc), thrive very well outside the control of Shankara mutts.

It is said Sri Adi Shankara (SAS) gave them their outward identity. Like the Giri order wears yellow, Swami order wears white, but this seems to be just a claim. The outward identity, like color of clothes, most likely existed before the time of SAS.

Within dasanamis, differences exist wrt their teachings / life approach method. Thirtha order and Swami order is allowed to marry. For that matter, i have not come across any ekadandi or tridandi sampradaya that specifically prohibits procreation (so technically Nityananda was not really wrong to have had sex). In the past sages like Parashara have procreated. Interestingly, some describe the yayavara as a deviant involved in improper acts (since he is allowed to procreate during his wanderings). However, celibacy is the expected norm. Esp so for ekadandi sampradayas like the Naga Sadhus who are strictly celibate.

The Naga sadhus wear no clothes, smear themselves with ashes (plz compare them with Bali Aga tantric ritualism), are acknowledged as sanyasis well versed in the vedas by monks of other orders, and yet come across as totally wild (IMO they are just like vedic Rudra, lost in the oneness of self, sometimes unable to bear the energy within they go wailing, howling, shouting, and are totally uncontrollable).

The Aghoras liken themselves to Naga Sadhus (Naan Kadavul movie type). I have always been fascinated with the Naga sadhus who somehow come across to me as the most ancient of the Ekadandis. Interestingly, their sanyasam initiation ritual includes putting on the sacred thread (on the shishya by the guru). The thread ritual appears to be of tribal origin (it served as an identifier for a shaman who put twisted munja grass like a rope across his torso).

To me, the beliefs seem to vary very widely amongst sanyasis of the various ekadandi orders. Usually (as i see) Thirtha sanyasis are more vaishnavite than saivite, or shakta. Same case with Swami order. Which is why am able to understand why ISKCON is supposedly following thirtha and swami orders. Somewhere along the way, the ekadandi and tridandi beliefs seem to merge, and practices of some of the orders tend to reflect that.

[[Oral tradition only, no references available:
One sanyasi said that tridandi actually comes from the trishul, and the trishul when kept at the lord's feet becomes an aayudham of God himslef. And therefore the trishul, like the naamam, signifies the Lord's feet. The trishul, is just a modified spear with 2 appendages added to the spear (vel); and since the spear was common in the Harappa / Mohenjadaro period, it can be taken to be an ancient weapon. Perhaps it helped to protect a sanyasi during his wanderings (and also to defend himself from wild animals with the wooden or metal vel / trishul "with the Lord's blessings"). And since various sanyasis had their own set of beleifs, over time, a set might have formed a seperate identity as a tridandi grouping.]]

As such, the hindu sanyasa traditions appear to be very ancient indeed, with Ekadandi and Tridandi monks being mentioned in the Mahabharat.

IMO, it must have been rather difficult for Sri Adi Shankara (SAS) to organise these ekadandi folks into specific mutts. The majority of the Ekadandis remain outside the control of Shankara mutts (we will discuss this more later b/w ourselves).

IMO, the claim of gradation is perhaps coming bcoz the guru recognizes how much his shishya has progressed and gives him titles. However, these titles (like Avadhuta, Paramahansa, etc) are different from the ekadandi order names (like Saraswati, Swami, Bharati, etc).

Paramahansa is the generally considered the highest title given where the sanyasi (of any order) is able to stop his breath and pulse for prolonged hours (meaning, he is capable of samadhi stage). Famous examples of these are Ramakrishna Paramahansa (of Swami order) and Yogananda Paramahansa (of Giri order)..

Avadhuta (literally meaning, "cast off") title is comparatively a little more common (do note there is also a popular saiva sanyasa sampradaya known as Avadhuta and they too are not under the control SAS's mutts).

Most of these title names (like avadhuta, paramahansa, etc) and order names (like saraswati, bharati, etc) actually occur across various texts. But i do not know why the orders are named that way.

There is a wiki article Dashanami Sampradaya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which touches upon these things a bit.

I hope others also offer insights wrt to the sanyasa traditions they know of.

Regards.

 

[senthil]

And FYI, the Indian constitution is modeled after the western notion of individual liberty and freedom.

1. When did the western notion of liberty and freedom came in to existence? I mean, did they had it for thousands of years, or did they get it only recently, and when?

2. You say, western constitutions are based on individual liberty and freedom.. liberty and freedom for whom?

3. It is under the british constitution (which are supposed to have liberty and freedom), the britishers displayed the board "Indians and Dogs are NOT allowed" in their elite clubs? This happened just 100 years ago..

4. It is the same western constitution, which colonised the whole world, and exploited every other non-european nation to utter poverty.. Yet, they are full of liberty and freedom..

5. It is under the british constitution, the whole of bengal was exploited so much, that it faced more than 20 famines in the 200 years of british rule.. one third of population perished in that artificially created famine.. Yet, the british constitution are full of liberty and freedom..

6. It is under the british constitution, the whole of textile industry and manufacturing industry was systematically destroyed.. the result, which forced everyone in to utter poverty..
The glorious results of the liberty and freedom that our country received..

7. It is the same british constitution, which oppressed any indian from owning ships.. Eg: kappaloatia thamilan chidambaram pillai.. yet, they are full of liberty and freedom..

Let me leave our own country.. Even in britain, the majority of population were working as guinea pigs, for more than 14 hrs a day with meagre wage.. yet, let's boast of their glorious liberty and freedom..

Sir.. if the western constitution were so glorious, what is the need for the communism? What is the need for the revolution there?

Sir.. the western society never had a proper education system till mid of 18th century.. i have pointed this earlier too, and now pointing it here.. during 18th century, when madras presidency alone had more than 1 lakh regular primary schools in most villages.. but at the corresponding period, britain which has more or less same population, had only 15,000 schools, and most of them were sunday schools, teaching bible for 2-3 hrs..

Sir.. there is not even a basis for your claim.. but still i dont understand the rationale behind your repeated allegation and accusation..

 

[senthil]

Innocent children experience horrendous (I don't know how else to characterize young children who are made to clean toilets and made to sit separately in school) treatment.

Sir.. during independance, almost 92 percent of india were rural.. Even during 1980s, there were no toilets in almost all rural areas.. people defeacated in bushes and open fields at the outskirts of the village.. there were (infact, even today there are) no sewages in villages..

How can a young dalit children be made to clean toilets, when there is no toilet itself?

Secondly, who used toilets? The britishers and indian elites, who worked under them.. and only the users of the toilet system could have employed dalit children to clean them..

And hence, i accuse the britishers and the elite indians as the poeple who unleashed this horrendous crime (as per your own words).. so, what can we do with them sir? the britishers had left.. but the elites who worked under them, took on the mantle..

So even now, it is the urban elites who are responsible for this horrendous crime of employing dalit children to clean toilets..

The jaati system or the brahmins had no role in this horrendous crime, My LORD

 

[senthil]

@nara

Senthil, from what you have written so far I get a feeling your views are narrowly focused on an imagined glorious past for the varna/jati [COLOR=#DA7911 ! important][COLOR=#DA7911 ! important]system[/COLOR][/COLOR]. Ans, instead of addressing the core issues you are nibbling at the edges. You are nice fellow, but my interest in what you are saying is waning fast. Unless you address the core issues head-on I am unlikely respond.

Sir.. i never said glorious past of varna/jati, nor i said varna/jaati are evil.. it is you who are slandering the varna/jaati, which i am opposing here..

The core issue in this thread is that @happyhindu accused that dalits and shudras are prevented from getting education, and i suitable negated this with my points.. but what i am getting back is repetition of the same allegations..

PS: varna is different from jaati.. i will create a new forum thread for this..

 

[happyhindu]

Sir.. during independance, almost 92 percent of india were rural.. Even during 1980s, there were no toilets in almost all rural areas.. people defeacated in bushes and open fields at the outskirts of the village.. there were (infact, even today there are) no sewages in villages..

How can a young dalit children be made to clean toilets, when there is no toilet itself?

Secondly, who used toilets? The britishers and indian elites, who worked under them.. and only the users of the toilet system could have employed dalit children to clean them..

And hence, i accuse the britishers and the elite indians as the poeple who unleashed this horrendous crime (as per your own words).. so, what can we do with them sir? the britishers had left.. but the elites who worked under them, took on the mantle..

So even now, it is the urban elites who are responsible for this horrendous crime of employing dalit children to clean toilets..

The jaati system or the brahmins had no role in this horrendous crime, My LORD

Senthil,

I think you are replying without going thru the posts properly. And the prob is that your knowledge is limited; and you seem unwilling to hold a bull's horns and have a clear good look at its eyes. You seem to be fooling yourself using ignorance as an excuse.

Have you read the dharmashastra (link i provided)? Please read the dharmashastras, then speak. The cleaners were there at the time dharmashastras were written. They (the Untouchables) existed long before the british set its foot on indian soil.

Even in villages, houses had toilets in the past. Am not speaking of the ones who lived in huts. You think Indian Kingdoms functioned without cleaners? Have you heard of Night Soil collectors (dalits) ?

It does not matter if the number of such cleaners were few or many. They existed and still exist. And we are talking of urbanized dwellings that have been around since Harappa / Mohenjadaro.

Senthil, Am still waiting for an answer from you. Are you as a Shudra willing to live a life as prescribed by the dharmashastras?

Please answer the previous questions first before moving on to other things.

 

[happyhindu]

@nara



Sir.. i never said glorious past of varna/jati, nor i said varna/jaati are evil.. it is you who are slandering the varna/jaati, which i am opposing here..

The core issue in this thread is that @happyhindu accused that dalits and shudras are prevented from getting education, and i suitable negated this with my points.. but what i am getting back is repetition of the same allegations..

PS: varna is different from jaati.. i will create a new forum thread for this..

Sorry Senthil. You have not replied to my questions yet. Am still waiting for an answer. No need to proceed to making claims.

And it is you who is being repetitive with your replies.

Just answer this:
Are you, a shudra, willing to live life as prescribed in the dharmashastras or not? If yes, you cannot be typing here. You should go back to your village to serve the other castes, eat their left-overs, wear their hand-down clothes, clean after them, and live exactly as the dharmashastras expect you to. That is what the concept of jaati-dharma in brahmanism is about.

You can create as many threads as you want. It wud be good if you cud look up old threads. Anyways, go on. Its your learning experience here.

 

[senthil]

@happyhindus

Have you read the dharmashastra (link i provided)? Please read the dharmashastras, then speak. The cleaners were there at the time dharmashastras were written. They (the Untouchables) existed long before the british set its foot on indian soil.

you have given some villainous image of dharma shastras.. but after reading manu smriti(yesterday night), i really dont know, what exists there for you to hate it that much.. after reading the shastras, i am more confident that i can answer you

Can you cite relevant shastras, which mentions about cleaners? Please dont include scavengers and chandalas.. they dont come under the category of toilet cleaners.. here the accusation @nara made is that dalits are forced to clean toilets.. is there any mention of toilets in manu shastra? What does manu says about defaecating?

What i could see from manusmriti on defaecating are the following verses..

48. Let him never void faeces or urine, facing the wind, or a fire, or looking towards a Brahmana, the sun, water, or cows.

50. Let him void faeces and urine, in the daytime turning to the north, at night turning towards the south, during the two twilights in the same (position) as by day.

56. Let him not throw urine or faeces into the water, nor saliva, nor (clothes) defiled by impure substances, nor any other (impurity), nor blood, nor poisonous things.

152. Early in the morning only let him void faeces, decorate (his body), bathe, clean his teeth, apply collyrium to his eyes, and worship the gods.

134. In order to cleanse (the organs) by which urine and faeces are ejected, earth and water must be used, as they may be required, likewise in removing the (remaining ones among) twelve impurities of the body.

135. Oily exudations, semen, blood, (the fatty substance of the) brain, urine, faeces, the mucus of the nose, ear-wax, phlegm, tears, the rheum of the eyes, and sweat are the twelve impurities of human (bodies).


I could not find any other statements regarding to defaecating.. Could you please let me know if manu says, that only dalits should come and clean the toilets?

Even in villages, houses had toilets in the past. Am not speaking of the ones who lived in huts. You think Indian Kingdoms functioned without cleaners? Have you heard of Night Soil collectors (dalits) ?

It shows that you have very little knowledge about village life.. Even people living in big houses would defaecate in open earth surrounded by bushes..

the word "Urban" is a generic word, more suitable for western cities.. in india it is nagar.. nagara is used for temporary purposes.. people would go to nagara and return back to their villages..

Next, in the present model of urban centres are packed with full of houses.. Indian nagaras are NOT like that.. there would be small settlements, surrounded by open spaces, often with bushes.. the population are sparse, the houses are constructed with spaces..

have you seen the older form of thotti veedu, often used by brahmanas and nagarathars?

In my own own village, each community will have their own colony.. kuditheru, para theru, sakkili theru, aasaari theru, otta theru, etc.. (there is no agraharam).. the houses will be in a straight line built on either side of the roads.. behind these houses are empty fields, with bushes.. its same for all jaati houses.. people would defaecate in the open grounds adjacent to their respective colonies.. and you know.. the dogs will do all the scavenging keeping the area clean [smiley intended..] .. and you know.. its one of the source of the rare mineral phosporous for them (its scientifically proven ) [smiley intended they too like it very much [two smiley intended] (i am imagining you saying aiyoo .. LOL .. any vomiting ?? [smiley] ) ..

[i could not use more than 4 smileys.. why?]

You know.. when my father built the toilet, my grandfather was against it.. when the concept of toilet came, indian rural people considered it as unhygiene to have it inside houses..

Now let me explain how dalits happened to became toilet cleaners.. in villages, the vellalas did agri, whereas the dalits worked in their fields.. the wages will be either money or part of the produce.. Even today, the dalit workers often demand paddy instead of money for harvesting rice.. both will share the produce..

WHen britishers took over india, they introduced the concepts of land ownership, property ownership, rental systems, and more importantly, the concept of sale of lands.. before that, these are unheard of in india.. the family members will plough the lands, for successive generations.. there will be only partition b/w family members..

the britishers started creating townships on the western model.. where entire plot is divided in individual plots, connected by roads, with drainages emptying in nearby river.. Since they invented toilets they connected them to drainage.. so they need not require any open grounds for defaecating..

The towns are created in existing villages.. as a result, the farmers have to leave their lands for the township.. Due to land onwership, the farmers sold their land, and with that money they settled in the towns and cities.. but what will the dalits do? they did not have any land to sell and they became slum dwellers in their own area, where once the fertile fields surrounding them are now converted in to houses and bungalows.. Earlier they had their food from the paddy grown in the area which they get as wage.. but now after the area is converted to housing units, this means is cut.. since there is no industry nearby, they have to depend on doing household activities in the newly created houses.. and bcoz they are more in number, their labour became cheap.. it is this urbanites, who misused the cheap labour of the dalits even for those activities, which can be done by their family members..

Let's take all the slums of chennai and relook in to the past? These were marshall lands, and shallow lands which are used as grazing lands, by these slum people.. who occupied those lands?

Let's take the sea shore.. the entire seashore was colonised by urban settlers that pushed the fishers to slum areas..

Lets take the buckingham canal along the lines of ECR (i stayed there for around 3 yrs).. some of the slum people still have buffaloes as their means of livelihood.. but today no more grazing lands..

Lets take the T-Nagar, where i stayed there for 6 months.. the slum people still have cows, but no more grazing lands.. their means of livelihood is taken over..

In villages, the dalits apart from working in farms, reared goats, hens and cattles in the fields, and public village lands.. in my vilalge, they will come to work for weeding, and take back the weeds collected for their goats..

when the environment in which their livelihood depended were colonised, they became rootless and their means of survival is destroyed..

Who destroyed it? answer is obvious..

Now please tell me, who is forcing dalits and dalit children to clean toilets? Who is responsible for this horrendous crime (as described by @nara sir) ?

Do you still say, my understanding capacity is still limited?

 

[senthil]

@happyhindu

Just answer this:
Are you, a shudra, willing to live life as prescribed in the dharmashastras or not? If yes, you cannot be typing here. You should go back to your village to serve the other castes, eat their left-overs, wear their hand-down clothes, clean after them, and live exactly as the dharmashastras expect you to. That is what the concept of jaati-dharma in brahmanism is about.

I read manu dharma.. as a shudra, it did not prevent me from learning farming.. it did not prevent me from learning english.. it did not prevent me from joining matriculation school.. it did not prevent me from joining engineering college.. it did not prevent me from working in a software company..

It did not prevent me in learning tamil and other languages.. it did not prevent me in learning arts.. it did not prevent me from learning music and musical instruments.. it did not prevent me from playing football (but it prevents a typical brahmin )

What it prevents me is from learning vedas.. and i dont need that for my living, and i am very well aware that i could not learn that..

So i am living as per the dharma shastra.. I also found, that as a shudra, i had very little restriction on my life code, but manu is totally unjust in imposing so many restrictions on Brahmins alone.. i really pity brahmin for that.. manu has been oppressing brahmins through his manu smriti.. LOL..

Jokes apart.. manusmriti is more concerned with vedas alone.. The word "Education" is a generic term which we are often confusing.. Learning vedas are one of the education.. there are many other educational schools present in our traditional indian society.. the ayurvedic schools.. the vocational education.. the arts school etc.. each education was taken care of by their respective jaati itself..

For eg, today we have agri university.. but on those days, our own fields are the agri universtiy.. the father will teach his child all the techniques of farming.. an aasaari will teach his child the techniques of carpenting.. a blacksmith will teach his child the technique of iron making..

So as every jaati teaches itself to its successive generations..

Today's concept of education is highly rotten in india, and the biggest blunder we are doing now is to see our history from our present mindset..

 

[senthil]

@happyhindu and @nara..

The kanchi mutt is one of the few places where shastras are followed.. can any one highlight, whether the head of the mutt relinquish his morning duties? Whether in open ground or in toilet?

The kanchi mutt is wealthiest with donations pouring from all circles.. so they could have built very comfortable toilets.. why did they NOT build one?

 

[happyhindu]

@happyhindu and @nara..

The kanchi mutt is one of the few places where shastras are followed.. can any one highlight, whether the head of the mutt relinquish his morning duties? Whether in open ground or in toilet?

The kanchi mutt is wealthiest with donations pouring from all circles.. so they could have built very comfortable toilets.. why did they NOT build one?

Senthil,

You seem to be under a false assumption that there are no toilets in the mutt. Please find out yourself.

I keep trying to promise myself not to talk about the mutt. So let that topic be kept aside. We are talking about the jati system.

Another request: Can we move this conversation to your blog or to my blog (which i shall create soon)? Am afraid folks will want to shut us out here. I say this bcoz your journey of discovery seems to have begun.

And btw, from your post above it is apparent that you have not read Manusmrithi fully. Do go thru the other dharmashastras (apasthamba, gautama, vashishta), then we shall speak in detail. And no, you are not living your life as a shudra should live. And please read the Manusmrithi again, it is not concerned about vedas, as you presume.

Thanks.

 

[anandb]

IMO, there is no need to move this discussion elsewhere. The discussion is quite interesting. As with any debate, there are no winners or losers. It is not even about who made the strongest points. It is all about what new perspectives and POV have come out of it. On this aspect this discussion seems to be quite engaging. As regarding folks interested in shutting this discussion down, is there specific information regarding this? Hope I am not one of them?

 

[happyhindu]

IMO, there is no need to move this discussion elsewhere. The discussion is quite interesting. As with any debate, there are no winners or losers. It is not even about who made the strongest points. It is all about what new perspectives and POV have come out of it. On this aspect this discussion seems to be quite engaging. As regarding folks interested in shutting this discussion down, is there specific information regarding this? Hope I am not one of them?

Anand,

Expressing oneself freely may not be possible on forums such as this one. Even ordinary words in english are considered provocative. I cannot keep thinking of alternative words.

As i said in the previous post, as the discussion goes along, i am afraid folks will want to shut us out here.

Senthil and i will hopefully decide on this. And even if we move to a blog, you are certainly free to participate there. Just that this is not going to be the right place since the orthodoxy might get offended.

Thanks.

 

[senthil]

@happyhindu

You seem to be under a false assumption that there are no toilets in the mutt. Please find out yourself.

I am more interested in knowing whether the head of the mutt uses toilet now.. how about the previous sankarachariar? do you have respect for him? did he use toilets?

The reason for knowing this is that kanchi mutt should follow sastras, and there is a continuity of practice from those times..

I heard in a newspaper, that when jeyandrar is lodged in jail, he did not use toilet..

Am afraid folks will want to shut us out here. I say this bcoz your journey of discovery seems to have begun.

I do understand, what you meant by journey of discovery.. the controversies reach people more faster than good.. so i have heard many things about kanchi mutt..

as you suggested, we can keep away kanchi mutts from discussion..

And btw, from your post above it is apparent that you have not read Manusmrithi fully. Do go thru the other dharmashastras (apasthamba, gautama, vashishta), then we shall speak in detail. And no, you are not living your life as a shudra should live. And please read the Manusmrithi again, it is not concerned about vedas, as you presume.

I read the manu smriti from the link you gave.. and i find that most of the restrictions are for brahmins who read vedas.. the restrictions on other varnas are lower and shudras have lowest restriction.

Fine.. in one sense, almost every one of the brahmanas are sudras as per the manusmriti..

102. Brahmanas who tend cattle, who trade, who are mechanics, actors (or singers), menial servants or usurers, the (judge) shall treat like Sudras.

So, manu dharma is a balanced one, even though not an ideal.. by the above smriti rule, almost all brahmins are today sudras.. we can discuss manushastra in a separate thread..

 

[anandb]

I think this forum has been quite okay when it comes to freedom of expression. Only when language has bordered on uncivil, foul, abusive and vulgar has it invited action. And it is not very difficult to figure out whether language falls within the above mentioned categories. To me, if I am provoked I just respond and ask for a similar response.

Let me come to brass tacks here. To me, neither celebrity or famous are the words to describe a very orthodox and traditional mutt head here. As I understand your position very well regarding the Kanchi mutt head I do have the right to consider that it comes with a touch of sarcasm. Your intentions may have been absolutely bona fide here but somehow it did not come across in the usage of that particular word. That is my objection here.

But I do understand your predicament. If you feel that your intentions are absolutely above board but the choice of words is going to restrict your freedom to put across your argument effectively, it affects the debate. So up to you guys.

 

[kunjuppu]

happy, anand,

i myself am no fan of the kanchi mutt. what i have found, is that as long as one's views are clinically clean and with obtuse adjectives, one can get the point across.

to give you an example: i have expressed often, that the mutt missed out glorious opportunities to bring the hindu fold together, at key junctions of the indian history. either at the time of indpendence, or the dawn of the dravidian revolution, or still, at the eve of the millenium.

these were not only lost opportunities for the sake of the faith, but also opportunities for the mutt to be broad based, and appeal across all castes. instead they have dabbled in fields of social politics, an area whose depth they have not been able to fathom, and thus have been drawn into the quicksand of muckraking and yellow journalism.

now this above two paras, could be made sensational, or even mockingly hurtful. whereas i believe, by being factual, i have made a point of my disapproval and disappointment in the mutt. there is nothing there which is not true or cannot be verified. the points made are dents in the mutt armour, that everyone who is interested in the mutt, favourably or otherwise, is only too aware.

to me, the mutt, has been one of the biggest logs in the way of impeding the enlightenment of hinduism through equally enlightened egalitarian oriented tamil brahmins. one of the saddest words in the english language is supposed to be 'it might have been' ......................

 

[happyhindu]

I think this forum has been quite okay when it comes to freedom of expression. Only when language has bordered on uncivil, foul, abusive and vulgar has it invited action. And it is not very difficult to figure out whether language falls within the above mentioned categories. To me, if I am provoked I just respond and ask for a similar response.

Let me come to brass tacks here. To me, neither celebrity or famous are the words to describe a very orthodox and traditional mutt head here. As I understand your position very well regarding the Kanchi mutt head I do have the right to consider that it comes with a touch of sarcasm. Your intentions may have been absolutely bona fide here but somehow it did not come across in the usage of that particular word. That is my objection here.

But I do understand your predicament. If you feel that your intentions are absolutely above board but the choice of words is going to restrict your freedom to put across your argument effectively, it affects the debate. So up to you guys.

Each one is free to presume what they wish to. I expect many more such objections and impediments here. So this is certianly not the place to continue.

My vocabulary databank is not big. Nor do i know to use the kind of language Kunjuppu ji does, and yet get the point across.

@Senthil,

My focus is only the shastras. We will continue on that later.

Regards.

 

[anandb]

Shrimati HH,

You don't need to regret about your inability and Shri. Kunjippu's ability in langauge skills because I find his comments to be broad, sweeping statements as much as I found yours to be a little insensitive to my tastes. But I will not venture into a discussion as it is a beaten to death topic in this forum where I don't think fresh insights are possible plus poles can never meet.

Nothing personal as I have very high regard to both of you.

Thanks

 

[anandsai71]

money education good looks (eg tall dusky looks) Parental views good habits and status are key factors driving any young girl to marry any boy irrespective of caste. Why lament?

 

[R. Ramanujan]

Totally agree with u on that. In fact I think If u have money then thats enough. now a days Every groom everywhere wants only Vellai bride, Even if she is full of vices.

 

[happyhindu]

Shrimati HH,

You don't need to regret about your inability and Shri. Kunjippu's ability in langauge skills because I find his comments to be broad, sweeping statements as much as I found yours to be a little insensitive to my tastes. But I will not venture into a discussion as it is a beaten to death topic in this forum where I don't think fresh insights are possible plus poles can never meet.

Nothing personal as I have very high regard to both of you.

Thanks

Its ok Anand. I understand where you come from. When it comes to shastras and roles of the brahmins (and kshatriyas) in that, it is always the case of one man's food being the other man's poison. What is dharma to one is gross injustice to another. IMO, the shastras create(d) desensitized individuals, who possibly reserve sensitivity for themselves but do not extend the same dignity to others. And if one were to mention stuff from the shastras as such, without mincing words, their POVs and statements wud ofcourse come across as insensitive...

 

[senthil]

@happyhindu, @nara.. and others

I missed the second part of the manudharma in the hinduwebsite.. and much of what you said are present there.. i agree with your points, that there is hierarchial order, from higher to lower castes..

Still, i would like to further discuss about manudharma (let me confine to this alone for clarity), in a separate theread here itself.. and i wish the discussion be free from allegations & labellig.. ie, even if the shastras were assumed to be hardcore discriminitating one, is it possible for us, just discuss it without applying sentiments or emotions?

But still you see.. i am living the life of the shudra, as per the shastras, partly.. i am the IT sudra (or a software sudra), serving some masters.. (NOT to say, many of senior & top managements in most IT companies are brahmins .. LOL )

And i also found communism and socialism enshrined in the manudharma quoted below..

15. (Or) he may take (it by force or fraud) from one who always takes and never gives, and who refuses to give it; thus the fame (of the taker) will spread and his merit increase

Could Robin hood had read manudharma?

 

[happyhindu]

@happyhindu, @nara.. and others

I missed the second part of the manudharma in the hinduwebsite.. and much of what you said are present there.. i agree with your points, that there is hierarchial order, from higher to lower castes..

Still, i would like to further discuss about manudharma (let me confine to this alone for clarity), in a separate theread here itself.. and i wish the discussion be free from allegations & labellig.. ie, even if the shastras were assumed to be hardcore discriminitating one, is it possible for us, just discuss it without applying sentiments or emotions?

Yes, please create a new thread. And i do not think there can be a ban on english words like "horrendous", "famous", "celebrity", etc. No one "allege" anything if the facts are stated as it is. The best thing is to just focus on the facts of the shastras.

But still you see.. i am living the life of the shudra, as per the shastras, partly.. i am the IT sudra (or a software sudra), serving some masters.. (NOT to say, many of senior & top managements in most IT companies are brahmins .. LOL )

No you are not. The Shudra has no right to study. That is exactly what Batuprasad Shastri mentions in the India Untouched movie. If you have to live like a shudra, you cannot study (anything), cannot seek secular work (anywhere), and so on.
Some more restrictions, from Manusmrithi:

1) You cannot eat your own food:

Sudras who live according to the law, shall each month shave (theirheads); their mode of purification (shall be) the same as that of Vaisyas, andtheir food the fragments of an Aryan's meal.

2) You must change your name:

Let (the first part of) a Brahmana's name (denote something) auspicious,a Kshatriya's be connected with power, and a Vaisya's with wealth, but a Sudra's(express something) contemptible.

More later...

And i also found communism and socialism enshrined in the manudharma quoted below..

15. (Or) he may take (it by force or fraud) from one who always takes and never gives, and who refuses to give it; thus the fame (of the taker) will spread and his merit increase

Could Robin hood had read manudharma?

I think you are not following the verses properly. Please also read the preceding verses: The Laws of Manu XI

This particular verse is for a brahmin. It means a brahmin is allowed to take material he needs to perform a sacrifice (yagna) by force, fraud, from one who does not give or is unwilling to give. If a brahmin does so, then the fame of the taker (the brahmin) will spread and his merit wil increase.

Unfortunately, no robinhood, communism or socialism here. A shudra is not allowed to take anything by force.