Drums of war

[pvraman]

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Dear Shri Nara,

Thanks for the link.

Hello PVR, here is an article from NY Time that tries to answer this very same question.

I hope we make an effort to understand the complexity and not just have a visceral reaction.

IMHO, The underlying enmity between the religions and their interests are the main reason for this kind of wars. If US did not do this, then, they will be happy to groom, Jihadis. In my understanding, the soudi's Oil & muslims quest for fertile land will make this world a fire ball.

My views are only through the India's perspective. India can not do anything, if we are attacked by the waves of terrorists as we have many Pakistan inside India. They know, how to make the politicians dance with their unified vote power. DMK is also extending the reservations for Muslims from OBC allotment. Well, we are grateful that US is doing.

When all the media were having divine love with Liberhan, there was a tiny article in Dinamalar which probably went unnoticed during this election time.

கோயில் சிலை உடைப்பு: கல்லூரி மாணவர்கள் கைது
டிசம்பர் 13,2009,00:00 IST

திருநெல்வேலி:செங்கோட்டை கோவிலில் அவமதிப்பு செய்தது தொடர்பாக கல்லூரி மாணவர்கள் உட்பட நான்கு பேர் கைது செய்யப்பட்டனர்.செங்கோட்டை பெரியசாமி தெருவில் வடக்கத்தியம்மன் கோவில் உள்ளது. கடந்த 28ம் தேதி அந்த கோவிலுக்குள் மர்ம நபர்கள் சிலர் குப்பைகள், செருப்புகளை வீசியிருந்ததோடு, பைரவர் சிலையை உடைத்து கால்வாயில் வீசியிருந்தனர். இதுதொடர்பாக நடவடிக்கை எடுக்க வலியுறுத்தி, அப்பகுதி மக்கள் மறியலில் ஈடுபட்டனர்.போலீஸ் விசாரணையில் அதே பகுதியை சேர்ந்த செய்யதுஅலி(21) முகமது கமால்(19) மற்றும் கல்லூரி மாணவர்கள் நாகூர்மீரான்(18) முகமது சாலிக்(19) ஆகியோர் இச்சம்பவத்தில் ஈடுபட்டது தெரியவந்ததால் அவர்கள் கைது செய்யப்பட்டனர்.

These people are college students. They have attempted against a Koil which is an Amman Koil and a town like Tirunelveli. As you may know, some time back, In Thenkasi, same Muslims try to build a Mosque opposite to the temple. Due to that there was a communal riot, and many false news paper reports. Finally everyday

-------------
I have stayed in Hyderabad/ Andhra for few years.
I am enclosing the article how a college student is lured by Al-Qaeda - The making of a terrorist.

The Hindu : Front Page : Eyewitness told of making of Al-Qaeda-Lashkar alliance

Some good analysis on the terrorism too.

SAUDI ARABIA: Ideological and Financial Epicentre of Jihad?
http://southasiaanalysis.org//papers36/paper3512.html

Thanks

 

[kunjuppu]

There is an endless list of horror stories when it comes to Islamic radicalism. It was 1988 I think when the Ayatollah passed death sentence on Salman Rushdie. It was actually a two pronged attack one coming from Iran, which in fact was not all that menacing compared the other prong, emanating from the U.S.'s stalwart ally, Saudi Arabia. The Wahhabism is a Faustian bargain that the Saudis/U.S. made, and now the entire world is paying the price.

Sometime back I saw a documentary on a Tamil Hindu boy in Malaysia falling in love with a Muslim girl. The girl converted to Hinduism and married the boy and happily lived, alas not ever after. As you know, once a Muslim, always a Muslim. Apostasy is a capital crime. Apparently, a marriage between a Muslim and a non-Musilm is illegal. The girl was forcibly removed from the boy and sent to reeducation camp. I don't know what finally happened, perhaps Renu can fill us in.

I am not oblivious to the facts of life when it comes to Islam. But I also feel, there are moderate Muslims, even in Pakistan, who are as much appalled and scared with what is going on today as any of us. In fact they have more stakes in this than any of us.

Anyway, I think we are probably talking about two different things. You are citing radicalism in Europe and Asia. The NY Times article was referring to radicalism in the U.S.

From all the reports I have read radicalism among the U.S. Muslims is on the rise only recently. Perhaps we are on different tracks, the NY Times article is about U.S. Muslims.

All religions one way or another offer more pain than enlightenment. Islam is but an extreme example.

All this aside, there is enough reasons to be concerned about U.S. escalation policy and hope Obama is perusing a parallel secret diplomatic track.

Cheers!

nara,

i think, in malaysia, anyone who marries a malay muslim, is forced to convert to islam. this is what i meant, that top down from government onwards, the direction towards radicalize what was once a easygoing islamic society.

it started, to the best of my knowledge, immediately when tun abdul razak took over from tungku abdul rehman in the 1960s as prime minister.

i have heard that approximately 10% of muslims are radical. i do not know where this figure came about, as it has been a while. this is an enormous number in real people. by contrast most other religions the estimate of radicals is less than 1%.

there are indeed a lot of moderate muslims, whatever that means in western jargon, which is what i think you refer. but while you and me, openly disavow hindu radicalism, and christian radicalism is equally mocked in the u.s., there is not much of disapproval shown to radical islam by the rest of islamic society, i think.

the only opponents of radical islam are the ruling elite in islamic countries, often financed by the u.s. saudi arabia, on one hand ruling cliquewise supports u.s., but the funding of wahhabistic theology and its related radical activities in schools like the one in deoband (u.p.) comes from disaffected saudi billionaires of the ruling clique.

i hope, i am stating this more, as a matter of fact, rather than rabble rousing against muslims in general. i hope, i am pointing out the incongruencies in the way islam deals with its own folks, and with the other societies.

personally, i think, there is a deep sense of dissatisfaction in islamic society at their own governments, their backwardness, poverty and above all a deep sense of inferiority compared to the rest of the world. many like in pakistan, take comfort in post muslim rule of india. in the arab world, it is their rule of spain. somehow the turkish empire, the largest of islamic empires, does not appear to incite any pride in muslims.

this disaffection is fuelled by clergy for their own purposes. altogether this is a good fuel for folks to channel their energy towards hatred and destruction. it is sheer envy translated into evil practices.

communist china was once like that. till deng realized that the best way to get his people's standard of living up, is not by promoting peasant revolutons in asia. but focussing inwards to hard work, vision and economic growth.

islamic societies, hopefully, soon understand that progress and prosperity comes with vision, hard work, honesty and education; not in releasing bombs and hatred through surrogates in the rest of the world. also, it might not be a bad idea, to remember that 'when in rome do as the romans'. only the ismailis under agha khan have a public and dictum to follow that mode. i do not think the rest of muslims care about integrating to the new societies where they have moved and still desire to move.

unfortunately, there is no such leadership in the widespread and disbursed and dissatisfied islamic societies.

this is what i think. i do not have journals to back up my above post. thanks.

 

[Raghy]

Sri Kunjuppu said:-

"unfortunately, there is no such leadership in the widespread and disbursed and dissatisfied islamic societies.

this is what i think. i do not have journals to back up my above post. thanks."

Your post is accurate. There are tons of evidences to prove that.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Hello Kunjuppu,

There are two sets of issues here,

1. reasons for the current rise in radicalization among Muslim youth in the U.S.
2. reasons for increasing global jihadist threat

Both are important issues. The NY Times article I cited was abut #1 above. In this regard, Holy Land Foundation article Shri KRS cited is a politically motivated piece. For every such article I can cite just as many or more from the other side. The EU Times article confirms NY Times reporting.

You know my views on religion in general, and let me assure you, among all religions the monotheistic ones are the worst and among them Islam is at the bottom. So what I am saying is not out of ignorance or gullibility.

If you go back further than the 1980's there was virtually no Islamic radicalism. The PLO was a secular entity fighting to secure their rights. Even Kashmir was peaceful. Terrorism in India at that time was coming from radical Sikhs and may be Sunjay Ghandi. Several things happened around this time that are at the root of what is happening now. Among them are,

• Zia ul Huq's rise to power and the subsequent unconditional support the received from he U.S.
• the unconditional financing of Afghan mujaheddin through ISI, resulting in unchallengeable power of ISI in Pak politics
• blind support for Saudi government (the origin of this goes back to FDR time) even though it was well known that they were feeding the beast of extremism
• unconditional and blind support, (moral, political, economical, and most of all tremendous amount of military support) for Israel no matter what they did
• support for Saddam during I-Ran/Eye-rack war
• stationing of US armed forces in Saudi land

The NY Times article reports what experts without any political ax to grind think. This is pitted against opinions we express here. The experts cited by NY Times may be wrong and the opinions expressed here may be right, but I think you will understand why I give more credence to the experts view -- and they say the ongoing and seemingly endless wars, increased drone attacks in Pakistan that result in horrendous "collateral" damage, the present escalation, not to mention (this was not in the cited NY Times article) the irrational support of Israel to the extent of siding with Israel on the report on the Gaza massacre by the imminent international jurist who himself is a Jew, are the reasons for the increasing radicalization of U.S. youth.

While we engage in targeted military operations, we must understand the root causes and addressing them. That is the only way to counter this menace. Relying only on military means, as indicated by rhetoric such as we must defeat them, or there is no good Taliban, etc. is a sure way to grow this menace even further and making sure not just our children, but our grandchildren also live under the long and ugly shadow of terrorism.

regards!

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Nara Ji,

FYI, this is what Wikipedia quotes about Robert Leiken the 'neutral expert' on terrorism:

"The idea that a well respected liberal analyst would launch such a strong attack on the Sandinistas caused considerable stir in Washington. Leiken's apparent conversion was seen by the entrenched left as a betrayal and by Reaganites as a vindication of their long held views. Most important, many Democrats who had relied on Leiken's analyses began to reconsider their Sandinista sympathies"

So, let us not pretend that you are quoting from some 'neutral' expert. What I am questioning is the implied assertions by these so called experts that the islamic terrorism within the USA will be gone, if the USA just withdraws from Afghanistan and Iraq. Such an implied conclusion has no basis. Because driving Americans out of Iraq and Afghanistan are not the final objectives of these islamists. Please read the objectives of these organizations, starting with the Islamic Brotherhood of Egypt, which gave birth to the expressed ideologies of these extremists. It is naive to believe that they will stop their terrorism, if only America yields. On the contrary, they will be emboldened and will become more active as the history shows.

Now on my article about the Holy Land Foundation - yes, it is a politically slanted article, and I posted it knowing so. But can you refute the facts contained in it? While you may not agree with the 'politics' of dealing with the phenomenon, you can not say that the facts cited therein are false. If you have any articles refuting directly the facts in the article, please do post it. I for one would be educated.

Please read the following on one extremist muslim cleric's influence on young. By the way he also preached at the mosque in Northern Virginia:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/19/us/19awlaki.html

I read a posting not long ago which painted the behaviour of muslims according to their percentage of population in various countries. The implication is, in general muslims do not know how to live in a secular state. I used to dismiss this notion as rubbish - Turkey for example, is highly secular. But more and more I am starting to believe that since Islam is not just a spiritual religion - it is also political and social - muslims in general do not know how to embrace the foreign culture where they live and do not assimilate very easily. Honor killings happen even in the US (one happened a couple of years ago where I live). We can not close our eyes and say there are moderate muslims. So what? They at present are supporting the extremists' ideology.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

.... What I am questioning is the implied assertions by these so called experts that the islamic terrorism within the USA will be gone, if the USA just withdraws from Afghanistan and Iraq. Such an implied conclusion has no basis.

Dear Shri KRS, I did not imply this conclusion. You may have seen some of the experts cited in the NY Times article making such "implied" conclusion. But that is independent of the point I am trying to emphasize, which is, the seemingly never ending ongoing wars and drone attacks are behind the increasing radicalization of young Muslims in the U.S. If you disagree with this assessment, I understand.

Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Dear Professor Nara Ji,

Okay. I have already said that these clerics are cleverly using Afghanistan and the drone attacks as TOOLS to radicalize the youth. In that sense I agree with you.

What I was arguing about is that the converse can not be true - viz. - get out of Afghanistan and stop the drone attacks and the radicalization will stop. Thanks.

Regards,
KRA

 

[hariharan1972]

[*]Zia ul Huq's rise to power and the subsequent unconditional support the received from he U.S.
[*]the unconditional financing of Afghan mujaheddin through ISI, resulting in unchallengeable power of ISI in Pak politics
[*]blind support for Saudi government (the origin of this goes back to FDR time) even though it was well known that they were feeding the beast of extremism
[*]unconditional and blind support, (moral, political, economical, and most of all tremendous amount of military support) for Israel no matter what they did
[*]support for Saddam during I-Ran/Eye-rack war
[*]stationing of US armed forces in Saudi land

prof sir,

i think your list is perfect. i would also add the razing of the babri mosque as the most significant flashpoint in fanning fundamentalism atleast from a south asian context.

while i agree with the list of 'reasons' what i am worried about is the increasing tendency to "rationalize" jihad.

i am not for a moment suggesting you are doing it, but i am seeing a general approach of trying to find causes.

if i can give a very simplistic example: if someone who has been hungry for a week breaks into a mcdonalds, i am of the opinion that we should unhesitatingly view it as illegal. the causative factor of hunger, imho, should not be used to "rationalize" the action.

and for his action, he should face punitive punishment. there's no escaping that.

ofcourse i agree that measures should be taken to eliminate hunger. however that should not "interfere" in the process of bringing the offender to justice.

the example is over simplistic but i hope you get my perspectives.

the action today is punitive and in my view well deserved.

i have also noted your posted regarding the hardship of the u.s soldiers operating in afganistan. though i have not read the contents that the link holds, i get your point.

i want to humbly bring to your kind attention the hardships that indian soldiers face in siachen. i salute those brave soldiers who risk their fertility to provide the strategic advantage to india.

i am not sure how we can afford to be so optimistic about bringing these beasts to reason.

as to mr kunjuppu's hopes on the islamic world, here's the dampner.

DAWN.COM | Pakistan | A tale of two classes

this article concerns the middle class in pakistan and the author notes that ' It has been all along anti-Indian, anti-Soviet Union in the first four decades and anti-American in the last two decades. It is also anti-communist and anti-secular.'.

so i dont bet any hopes on 'reformation' in pakistan and afghanistan.

increasingly this joke is gaining credibility the world over.

'what do you call one pakistani on the moon ?'

'problem !'

'what do you call all pakistanis on the moon ?'

'problem solved !'

replace pakistan with pakistan + afghanistan or the entire muslim world.

 

[Nara]

....the action today is punitive and in my view well deserved.

Dear Hari, I agree the perpetrators must be brought to justice. India did it, with that fellow Quasam, whatever his name is. But the present escalation is not billed as a punitive action.

i want to humbly bring to your kind attention the hardships that indian soldiers face in siachen.

They indeed deserve our respect. But they are defending their own borders. The U.S. action is in a foreign land where their presence may very well inflame, and may not achieve any of the stated goals. Past, they say, is prologue. If that is true, then there is much we should learn from the past like Vietnam. I Know Vietnam is not the same as Afpak, but there are lots of lessons that are very prescient.

i am not sure how we can afford to be so optimistic about bringing these beasts to reason.

IMHO, this is the only hope for a reasonable outcome.

'what do you call one pakistani on the moon ?'

A good one, I read this out to all my family we all had a good laugh. My son finished the last part even before I did.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Hello everyone,

here is an interesting article in this context that cites a Varadarajan of Hoover Institute.

Chris Kelly: My Daughter's on the No Fly List

 

[kunjuppu]

what can i say?

British P.M. ‘Appalled’ by Protest Plan - NYTimes.com

tolerance, i believe, has only so much limits. let us see how this progresses.

 

[Raghy]

what can i say?

British P.M. ‘Appalled’ by Protest Plan - NYTimes.com

tolerance, i believe, has only so much limits. let us see how this progresses.

Sri.kunjuppu,

Tolerance can be extended only towards persons are group that recognises and appreciate tolerance. If tolerance is seen as weakness, nothing can prosper. the plan will not progress any further. the damage is already done. Any further action would turn the public bitter. So, it will not go further. these are political games. Unfortunately most people have not realised them.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

raghy,

but they WILL, won;t they?

after all, these are the folks who defeated hitler.

i believe they will prevail

 

[Raghy]

raghy,

but they WILL, won;t they?

after all, these are the folks who defeated hitler.

i believe they will prevail

sri.kunjuppu,

I doubt it. As it stands now, they will not prevail. The British Government knows that British citizens are facing an inevitable, voilent showdown. The Government is only trying to postphone it with a hope of wishing it away. By the way, those folks did not defeat Hitler. When Japs attacked Pearl Harbour, Chrchill celebrated! Until then America did not want to take part in the Eroupian war (once again!). I sincerely hope, I am wrong.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

....Tolerance can be extended only towards persons are group that recognises and appreciate tolerance.

Do you think the innocent women and children of Afghanistan have any time to think about the finer points of tolerance? The NYT article says "One anonymous contributor made his point bluntly. “I want my England back,” he said. Why do the Afgans deserve anything less, don't they deserve to have their Afghanistan back as well?

Cheers!!

 

[Raghy]

Do you think the innocent women and children of Afghanistan have any time to think about the finer points of tolerance? The NYT article says "One anonymous contributor made his point bluntly. “I want my England back,” he said. Why do the Afgans deserve anything less, don't they deserve to have their Afghanistan back as well?

Cheers!!

Dear Sri.Nara,

My point was not made with respect to Afghanistan. These people (USA, Nato and UK) are wasting their time in Afghanistan. Afghani people do not know where to start their lives now. An Afghani person deserves as much as any American or British person. There are organisations run by Afghani women who are determined to take care of that. Unfortunately, Afghanistan became the expendable pawn initially between the power struggle between U.S.S.R and U.S.A followed by the talibans and U.S.A. In all circumstances, it was Afghani people who ended up holding the very short end of the stick.

I did not refer to any of that in my previous post. UK showed more tolerance than necessary to bend over backwards to accommadate the unreasonable demands of the immigrant groups, even to the extend of trampling over the rights of British people. I have informations to back this up. Now the monster is scratching its hooves for a fight.

Cheers!

 

[amala]

I did not refer to any of that in my previous post. UK showed more tolerance than necessary to bend over backwards to accommadate the unreasonable demands of the immigrant groups, even to the extend of trampling over the rights of British people. I have informations to back this up. Now the monster is scratching its hooves for a fight.

Cheers!

Dear Sri RaghyJi,

With the greatest respect I hope you're not getting your information about the UK "bending over backwards" etc from British people who escape to Oz mostly because they want to get away from ethnic minorities of the tanned/dark variety.

About the protest march-- the self-proclaimed Islamic leader Anjem Choudhary hasn't even applied to the police for permission to march. He is just winding everyone up and, sadly everyone is playing right into his trap by reactin and being indignant. As a radio compere here said, its regrettable that even the PM had to respond to such lunacy.

 

[suraju06]

Do you think the innocent women and children of Afghanistan have any time to think about the finer points of tolerance? The NYT article says "One anonymous contributor made his point bluntly. “I want my England back,” he said. Why do the Afgans deserve anything less, don't they deserve to have their Afghanistan back as well?

Cheers!!

Dear Mr Na. Raghavan,
Were the Germans of Hitler's Germany not innocent? Being innocent or not is the question. When you throw up a leader like Hitler or Baitullah or Muttavakil you are presumed to be not innocent. When your leaders go and engage in monkeying business the response cannot be with kid gloves. What Americans do will be done by every one if they had the resources - that is bombing them to the stone age until they stop monkeying anywhere in the world.
Afghans deserve their Afghanistan back with them if and when they give the assurance that they will not engage in any terror activities anywhere in the world and, this is important, they keep their promise.

 

[Nara]

Afghans deserve their Afghanistan back with them if and when they give the assurance that they will not engage in any terror activities anywhere in the world and, this is important, they keep their promise.

Dear Raju, we have gone over this already. We have a different perspective on this.

The armchair warriors and chicken-hawks like Dick Cheney and George Bush take the whole world into a holy war (crusade) against the Islamic extremists -- anyone with a name like say, Kamal Hassan, and the truly innocents are the ones who pay the ultimate price -- the Afghani women, children and unconcerned civilians, and the American poor.

While the Taliban are vile beasts, not a single Afghan has committed any terrorist act in India or in America or anywhere in the world. Still we demand that they must renounce terrorism! Strange are the ways of the rich and powerful.

There is not a single Afghan occupying Britain, and there are close to 10,000 British troops in Afghanistan, and yet some Brits say they want their Britain back. Who is going to give the Afghanistan back to the Afghans?

And Raju, I don't fault you for this, , I think you are looking for my full name "Narayanan". BTW, Raghavan is a great name too.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sow.Sri.Amala,

"With the greatest respect I hope you're not getting your information about the UK "bending over backwards" etc from British people who escape to Oz mostly because they want to get away from ethnic minorities of the tanned/dark variety."

Sow.Amala, No, the British immigrants are only a minor source; my major source is from British people living in England, local newspapers in England. UK is bending backwards to appease certain segments of the assylum seekers, illegals and immigrants. About the protest march, I have already mentioned in post #64. I do not like to mention any names.

cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Raju Sir,

"Afghans deserve their Afghanistan back with them if and when they give the assurance that they will not engage in any terror activities anywhere in the world and, this is important, they keep their promise."

Afghanis are victims of the internal war lords, jirga, taliban, al-Queda; Nato, USA, UK bombs and artilleries; drone missiles;extreme temperatures...The Government recently passed a law by which, it is okay for the husband to rape his wife or wives. In 1975 they were proud people living in a lush, beautiful country. In 35 years, they are pused back by 500 years...or something similar to that effect.

 

[suraju06]

Sri.Raju Sir,

"Afghans deserve their Afghanistan back with them if and when they give the assurance that they will not engage in any terror activities anywhere in the world and, this is important, they keep their promise."

Afghanis are victims of the internal war lords, jirga, taliban, al-Queda; Nato, USA, UK bombs and artilleries; drone missiles;extreme temperatures...The Government recently passed a law by which, it is okay for the husband to rape his wife or wives. In 1975 they were proud people living in a lush, beautiful country. In 35 years, they are pused back by 500 years...or something similar to that effect.

Dear Mr. Raghy,
War lords are creatures of the society from which they draw their recruits, sustenance and strength. Whether it is a Mohammed Dostum or a Baitullah they are warlords because they have an army. I have already answered your point in the portion of my post which you have left out from the quote. It is still a lush country what with the fertile crop of ganja.By all means let us have peace in all countries by consent. There should be a clear punishment for one who breaks the rule. Cheers.

 

[hariharan1972]

The Government recently passed a law by which, it is okay for the husband to rape his wife or wives.

(

dont need to make a big fist of this....they just legalised what their holy book was saying all the while.

 

[hariharan1972]

the truth about the 'drone attacks'.

attn : prof nara ji

DAWN.COM | Columnists | Howling at the moon

i trust irfan hussain more than some johnny writing in nyt or lat

 

[Nara]

attn : prof nara ji
i trust irfan hussain more than some johnny writing in nyt or lat

Thanks Hari, I read the article. If the US is able to target terrorists with precision with few civilian casualties that is certainly welcome news to me. But when I look at the ineptness of the CIA that allowed the recent suicide bombing of their outpost charged with tracking and eliminating high-value Al Qaeda operatives, I am less than sanguine about the targets they select. In the absence of precise information, I do concede Farhat Taj and Irfan Husain have a point.

Anyway, this does not talk to my main concern, which is, the escalation of US troop presence in Afghanistan.

Cheers!