God Exists

[C RAVI]

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Sri.Rajaji Sir, Greetings.

I like to start with 'Karma' theory, please. I was bullied by sadistic elderly person from my age of 6 to 7 years. He was rich, he packed grudge against the family I grew up, he took it on me for many many years. The biggest trouble was, there was no one to stand up for me. The bullyiing was taken one by one by others too. ஊருக்கு இளைத்தவன் பிள்ளையார் கோயில் ஆண்டி.. I lived it when I was young..... later on I found out, அடியேன் ஊருக்கு மட்டும் இல்லை, வீட்டிற்கும் இளைத்தவன்! I was depressed, so many times felt at the rock bottom. I was not smart either. Anyway, there was a time when I could not muster 10 paise for buying one non-filtered cigarette; my property value was much less than that........ Let's pause here, please.

So, what is the justification? It must be the bad karma from my previous births which should have caused such hardship. If I took some unwise decisions, that too happened because, I was controlled by illusion due to my bad karma from my previous births.

Actually, I am going to stop my reply here. I wish to hear from the forum, the possible reasons for my past hardships, please. Thank you. Once I get few replies, I would continue to discuss further.

Cheers!

Shri Raghy,

It's really painful to me to note such crude and cruel expressions of this world, which many unfortunates had to experience and many are continuing to experience for many years, as grown up adults.

Please be noted that in this physical world of human survival, with dominating "Selfish Genes", almost every one tend to be selfish in some or other way. Many tend to be crude and cruel and enjoy other's suffering, taunt them, be sadist, swindle others wealth, captivate other's wife/husband, commit crime and put blame on others etc..etc... in this so called wonderful world, from the time immemorial.

We see people circling around wealthy men/women as their dearest friends to enjoy out of their money and once the wealthy person becomes pauper, almost all vanish from his/her vicinity with open declaration or with wicked and tactical reasoning.

We see wealthy people enjoying all the comforts of life and at a point lose everything and come to roads, begging around.

We see many poor people suffering to live a descent life and at one point of time could make success and live a comfortable life.

We see many taking the wrong way and many taking the right way towards their progress. Some could sustain prosperity and some could not in their present life.

We find totally dumb children of many intelligent couples, who could never ever make average progress in studies and have good life for himself/herself.

We find many intellectuals and gnyaanis from very poor / non-intellectual parents.

Kannadhasan has rightly said - "Vettri Petra Manidhar Ellam Budhdhisaali Illai, Budhdhisaali Manithar Ellam Vettri Petradhu Illai".

Many tend to say about this same Earth of Human Survival as - "Swargamum Inga - Nargammum Inga".

As per Karma theory, the soul learns, adopts, understands what is Dharma, Karma, Kama, Krodha, Lobha etc..and leads a life, have to refine towards selflessness and get rid of this static "Swargam-Nargam" Physical world of Happiness/Comforts and Sorrow/Sufferings, in order to get dissolved with the supreme power, that we call "Liberation".

Nature / God / Rule of the Nature / Rule of the God / The Supreme Power, the all omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent cannot be recognized and accepted easily by the Souls in Human forms.

Souls in Human forms with Exemplary Human brains are blessed to work towards liberation by recognizing and accepting God, being into Spirituality and instilling oneself with refine qualities of Love, Care, Selflessness etc.

Karma theory refines souls stage by stage (by way of repeated janma(s)), until the soul could overrule the "Selfish Gene" of its physical body, in this physical wold, attains selflessness, attains the sense of Dharma/Karma/Prema and over rules one's own - "I", "Mine", "My Self" motives..

A person born to poor family and remaining poor throughout his/her life also can attain liberation, if one is into Selflessness and continues to hold Dharma/Karma/Prema, unmindful of luxurious world and people living around him/her.

A person born to rich family and remaining as rich ever though out his/her life can also attain liberation in the same order.

The reverse of the both would make them get into repeated re-birth until the soul refines in the purest sense.

Realization of God, Acceptance of God, Spirituality etc...helps a person to be composed and achieve fine qualities, living in this same physical (Swargam-Nargam) world.

Many present days Atheists once have recognized GOD some way (through their “Previous Janma”, Throug parents, Parent's Karma, by others etc..etc) and now have just ignored to carry on the same belief system. But, as long as they could be a Good Human, their rejection or acceptance about the existence of GOD in the present janma, got nothing to do with hindering their liberation.

 

[zebra16]

Dear narayan sir, even your nit pick is not well founded. Gautama Buddha rejected the Vedas and therefore he was indeed a nAstika.

Cheers!

Sri Nara Sir,

By the way, are you going to continue participating in this thread? I had one or two responses pending for your msgs, which I put on permanent hold because of your msg # 1147.

Regards,

narayan

 

[Nara]

....My point was not whether Gautama Buddha was a nastika or not (He was indeed a nastika). My point was nastika is not equivalent to atheist. One could be a theist and still a nastika

Yes of course you are correct, one can be a theist and a nastika, in fact most theists in the world are nastikas.

Now it is my turn to pick a nit , subbudu sir did not make this connection, i.e nastika = atheist, did he?

...By the way, are you going to continue participating in this thread? I had one or two responses pending for your msgs, which I put on permanent hold because of your msg # 1147.

I don't like to say never. I find it tiresome to engage in pointless back and forth with people who think it is alright to put down and mock. I have never seen you adopt this tactic. So, I will participate in a discussion with you if you are so inclined.

Cheers!

 

[ShivKC]

One of the reasons I see that the theists show intolerance, is there somewhere deep within their mind, they feel that a building will crumble, and they therefore grumble when someone openly expresses doubts and questions things which are not invented from nowhere. .

subbudu sir, tolerance as such is a religious thing, which all the religions teach. many of them take this in a wrong notion, that its a non-physical term..

tolerance is a physical term. if some one abuses/boss around/slave treat you, be tolerant. some one hits you and still you bear with him and move out, its tolerance.

but if some one says, that the 'world is flat' and still expects you to believe that, as an ambassador of tolerance, you dont need to accept that, and you have every right to question him (verbally).. cos, tolerance is a physical term.

so, if some one claims some one is intolerant towards others, in this internet forum, where only words are exchanged, then one needs to get clarified with what the word 'Tolerant' mean.

so, next time when you use the words intolerance in a debate, pls think twice.

now taking you to the physical term tolerance.. this word is mostly of a kind religious sanctioned one.

if for an atheist,who believes that, every thing in the world is survival of fittest, all are the acts of selfish genes,and the powerful will rule,etc etc, where is the room for 'tolerance' in the atheist concept?

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Nara,

I admire you for the way you resolutely stick to your convictions and try to defend them.

Ok, let me ask you this way. What is it you find unacceptable in the theist definition of God? If at all you are allowed to define God or alternately a perfect being what qualities you would want to attribute to him?

 

[ShivKC]

interesting statistics.

this thread has reached the top, by having the highest number of posts, in this forum.

being atheist or theist, every one behaved responsibly, without any major flares. and thanks to sh.praveen also, for opening this thread again, after a blockade.

this strange popular attraction, also proves, our core values and beliefs . god exists. some thought any thread, which hits against B's will attract more attention, like ICM etc.... its proved wrong.

this is our forte, and majority members found this place interesting to discuss and debate.

 

[Nara]

....What is it you find unacceptable in the theist definition of God? If at all you are allowed to define God or alternately a perfect being what qualities you would want to attribute to him?

Dear sravna, if I accept the assumption that there is a god, then only we can talk about how to define god, no? But, I can't accept that assumption. I have not seen any reason why this assumption must be accepted. sravna, we have gone over this before. I am aware of your time/space arguments, but these are only arguments, not definitive proof.

The problem with theist argument is, they have an a priori conviction, and then they are after finding an argument that will fit this a priori conviction. To me, this is putting the cart before the horse.

Given there is no irrefutable proof either way, one is forced to postpone making any definitive statement about the existence or non-existence of god -- this is what is popularly known as the agnostic view. Technically speaking, this is the only rational position one is allowed, if he/she wants to be rational that is.

My atheism is more practical than technical. Whether there is a creator god or not, there is enough biological evidence and rational and plausible cosmological theory to conclude there is no "personal" anthropomorphic god who cares about human existence or the existence of any other life form. Therefore, I think the rational thing for me to do is to shape my daily life and conduct without bringing god into the equation.

This is my considered position.

Cheers!

 

[ShivKC]

Sri.Rajaji Sir, Greetings.


So, what is the justification? It must be the bad karma from my previous births which should have caused such hardship. If I took some unwise decisions, that too happened because, I was controlled by illusion due to my bad karma from my previous births.

Cheers!

The atheist may not like suffering, but he has no reason to object it too.

sh.ragy, pls ponder over it. give it a thought this way. something is better than nothing, indeed.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Nara,

Let us leave aside the personal, anthropomorphic and supernatural aspects.

Now,

1. Do you think the following are desirable attributes in a person?:

loving, caring, selfless ,balanced etc.

2. Do you think the opposites of the above are not desirable attitudes in a person and is consequently detrimental to the society?

I am sure the answer would be yes from you for both. Do you see we actually have fundamentally similar views but separated on superficially constructed labels?

Even with out bothering ourselves as to whether there is after life or not or whether there is moksha or not, we can lead an exemplary life by acquiring the above qualities.Even BG spends substantial effort only in stressing the importance of acquiring the above qualities.

So the really important question is not whether God exists but whether people can rise to that level and prove that such People Exist.

 

[Nara]

....So the really important question is not whether God exists but whether people can rise to that level and prove that such People Exist.

Let us shake on it sravna, we have reached a deal

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Let us shake on it sravna, we have reached a deal

Cheers!

OK done

 

[zebra16]

Let us shake on it sravna, we have reached a deal

Cheers!

OK done

Eureka moment reached? Shall we begin the closing ceremony?

Regards,

narayan

 

[ShivKC]

Even with out bothering ourselves as to whether there is after life or not or whether there is moksha or not, we can lead an exemplary life by acquiring the above qualities.Even BG spends substantial effort only in stressing the importance of acquiring the above qualities.

So the really important question is not whether God exists but whether people can rise to that level and prove that such People Exist.

the human pondering of life after death, and subseqent arrival of with the concept of karma/hell/heaven has some better theoretical, i stress theoretical answer to the quests, than what atheism could answer with a 'null set'

guess what, one can cite few atheists as bn dollar donors, or cite just another atheist who may live a holy life,but fact is, here we are designing a constitution/system which answers to the human quest.

is there any judicial system defined by atheism, even if its imaginary, that could caution our children from acts debauchery, better than karma.

dont we scare out children with the PooChandi, just to scare her, so that she will grab her food!

 

[tks]

Religion and respect to Religious texts. In this forum I have never never never ever said one thing wrong about even one scriptural text except for questioning the general nature of belief system in society. However there is nothing wrong in questioning the worthiness of these books also. None of us as hindus anyway follow even one book completely(neither want to follow) from first page to last page. So actually we are all non believers it is only the question of recognition.

Now if we look at the puranic book. So many versions. If we accept one version to be true we are rejecting all other versions- Is it not? Further in one purana, the genealogy list of gods and humans is different from another. Kalki Purana talks about war between Kalki and Buddhists. But really Buddhists are not that much of a force anywhere today. Looks like the work was composed in Buddhist times. Why not question it? If we look at BG. It would come as a surprise to many here, in Alberuni's work on India, it is mentioned certain things about BG which dont exist in currently circulated about BG. How much of conversation of Krishna and Arjuna is BG? One of the person to question that concept itself was non other than HH JSS . In one of the videos released a few decades back, eknath videos, I think, he said that in reality Krishna must have conversed with Arjuna for about 18 minutes or so. That has been immortalized through the BG Poems. But if nobody objected to that , one can easily question the poetry in BG and even question concepts and similes used in that Book. And there were books and people currently considered as saints, who were responsible for war and violence. Why should we not objectively look at that question. Dayanand Saraswati, also an advaitin , not the arya samaj guy, has questioned if Ramana Maharishi was all that great, But here in this forum we have people who take objection to criticism of both.

This is why I feel holy books may be considered holy but there is no reason to not question them with a fully open mind. That is freedom , freedom of mind , freedom of Voice, freedom of all things. If people had been allowed to openly critique certain holybooks in certain countries then countries like India would never have been partitioned. We would not also have seen twin towers , we would have seen chidambaram as a wonderful siva-vishu shrine. Tirupati an accomodative and modest temple allowing buddhists, vaishnavas and saivas.

Unlike other religions based on 'blind faith' (read as suspension of reasons and logic) Upanishads and BG do encourage questioning. That is why teachings are presented as conversations. At the end of Upanishads such as Taittiriya a student is suggested to deal with issues related to interpretation by relying on other learned people or if one is not available to use one's own judgement. The teachings always leave the person in charge in their ability to reason.

Questioning has to have a purpose. If it is to help clarify a confusion then it is absolutely necessary to question before accepting. Issues regarding respect is a different matter.

If someone has already decided that all this is meaningless then so be it. Scholarly debate is one thing, but repeatedly asserting that all this teachings are meaningless and have no relevance is disrespectful and childish in my view.

Every subject requires a certain background, pre-requisites, mental faculties to process information and a right attitude towards the subject. This is true whether the subject is Biology, Abstract Algebra or Upanishads or Islam or any topic.

Raising questions to understand and clarify a doubt is needed. But if a judgement is already made that a subject has no use in a person's life (e.g., say Abstract Algebra or learning Mandarin) then stay away from saying that the 'subject is useless' like a broken record.

Purana stories have started out with a message but stories have been embellished over many hundred years. In my view this makes the stories more interesting to read and relate to the underlying message (like Sesame Street characters teaching young children about complex concepts via funny episodes). Literal analysis is not the correct approach in my view (e.g., Talking big-bird is not possible in real life etc).

Bottom line: If the objective of the study and questioning is genuine, a problem statement about what one is trying to solve is made clear in the discussion and there is a good idea as to what a subject matter addresses then questioning at any level of detail is very necessary and will be deemed respectful questioning. If a conclusion about a topic is already made then respectful thing to do is to keep quiet which in my view is a sign of maturity.

 

[nachi naga]

prayers do miracle.nice to see sravna and nara cementing value based life living which by itself is divine force,latently waiting to evolve.personalities act as motivational catalyst to enhance this,imho.

 

[nachi naga]

the athma has a body which has a birth and death.the athma is neither born nor dies.if this significant truth is known,self realisation is instantaneous,a living enlightenment.

 

[tks]

the athma has a body which has a birth and death.the athma is neither born nor dies.if this significant truth is known,self realisation is instantaneous,a living enlightenment.

Not sure if there is a devil but let me be devils's advocate

Wish self-realization is that simple though when one get the knowledge I suppose it is 'instantaneous' !

In learning such terms we are often left with more questions of why, what , how etc.

- Are there infinite number of Athmas? Why does 'it' need a body again and again? Is that gross body only or subtle body is included too? who created this body and Jagat? If it is about exhausting Karma by getting a body (which is yet another concept), one can never do so since it is postulated that there is limitless amount of 'good and bad' Sanchita Karma
- Why is this all true - what is the basis since it is all just assertion using terms that do not have very good description.

The hardest part is to reconcile all these ideas without making up excuses and even that would not be called realization!

No need to answer the questions, I just wanted to point out that this topic area could seem complex for many people.
If you have clarity in your mind that is all that matters

See - I am playing not a Theist, or Atheist but a Devil's advocate today

 

[renuka]

Dear TKS,

you wrote:See -

I am playing not a Theist, or Atheist but a Devil's advocate today

I remember reading some poem by Khalil Gibran before where he had written about the Devil and a Christian Priest where the Devil lay injured on the road and begged for the Priest to help him and the Priest refused saying that he is the Devil and deserves no mercy etc.

Then the Devil narrates how important the role of the Devil is to instill fear in humans for them to pray to God.
The Devil does also say that if there was no Devil many would not even need God and the Priest gets convinced and finally helps the Devil.

I wonder if the Devil took advise from his Advocate that time!!!!

 

[tks]

Uniting Europe through Vedic Chanting!

Not sure if God made this happen

Sri Rudram rendered by Serbs,Croatians and others in Germany!

Their rendering seem authentic.

See it here

If this thread is ending you can finish reading by hearing the rendering of Mantra Pushpam by these Eurpeans !!

 

[renuka]

Not sure if God made this happen

Sri Rudram rendered by Serbs,Croatians and others in Germany!

Their rendering seem authentic.

See it here

If this thread is ending you can finish reading by hearing the rendering of Mantra Pushpam by these Eurpeans !!

I have seen similar types of recitation at Puttaparthi even by Japanese and it was just really motivating to see it cos the 1st thing I did was run back to my room to polish up my Rudra Chamakam,Mantra Pushpam etc cos I felt slightly ashamed that I didnt commit it to memory like what others did so well.

 

[sravna]

Basically atheists are not comfortable with omniscient omnipotent being existing. I am ok with this as the blatant exercise of this knowledge and power never happens.It is through means that seems to be normal and natural to humans that the power of God manifests.So for all practical purposes the power of God is not visible. So it boils down to a question of faith. This is the area of difference.

The more important thing is one has to keep striving to improve self. This is something that both theists and atheists would agree on. Theists should be happy with this because, this is the very essence of BG, not to worry about the end whether it be moksha or anything else. Atheists also would get a very important concession from the theists, that theists are not talking about some superman people whose power controls the world in some mysterious ways.

But I would say that having agreed to talk the same language at the fundamental level let us also allow both the freedom to embellish that in the way they want. That shouldn't worry either camp.

Let us start celebrating divinity and humanity together!

 

[nsmkrish]

A nice story I can use somewhere, thanks Brahin.

 

[tbs]

Not sure if God made this happen

Sri Rudram rendered by Serbs,Croatians and others in Germany!

Their rendering seem authentic.

See it here

If this thread is ending you can finish reading by hearing the rendering of Mantra Pushpam by these Eurpeans !!

hi tks sir,

awesome....thank u so much ...very nice....GOD EXISTS...NO DOUBT...

regards
tbs

 

[DrBarani]

A nice story I can use somewhere, thanks Brahin.

Sorry, copyright violation, can't use it anywhere!

 

[zebra16]

Will open a thread in the next 3-4 days. Right now trying to get one automated robot done that trades in derivative market. Hope to get it done in the next couple of days. Will get more time to analyze the markets and economics (I have my own pet theories there). Thanks.

As the saying goes "Money is religion and Dollar is God"... sooner or later Dollar will gain strength and get rid off atheists!

Sir, Was it your automated robot that was driving the markets crazy on Thursday and Friday? hehe

regards,

narayan