God Exists

[Raghy]

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The atheist may not like suffering, but he has no reason to object it too.

sh.ragy, pls ponder over it. give it a thought this way. something is better than nothing, indeed.

Sri.Shiv sir, Greetings.

I did not say I was suffering in my life in post #1173. It was just my life. I was not complaing about that. By the way, I don't settle for 'something is better than nothing' philosophy. I work hard; if I don't get the result I sought, I even work harder to achieve the result I seek.

Cheers!

 

[suraju06]

Raghy in 1173-God Exists

Sri.Rajaji Sir, Greetings.

I like to start with 'Karma' theory, please. I was bullied by sadistic elderly person from my age of 6 to 7 years. He was rich, he packed grudge against the family I grew up, he took it on me for many many years. The biggest trouble was, there was no one to stand up for me. The bullyiing was taken one by one by others too. ஊருக்கு இளைத்தவன் பிள்ளையார் கோயில் ஆண்டி.. I lived it when I was young..... later on I found out, அடியேன் ஊருக்கு மட்டும் இல்லை, வீட்டிற்கும் இளைத்தவன்! I was depressed, so many times felt at the rock bottom. I was not smart either. Anyway, there was a time when I could not muster 10 paise for buying one non-filtered cigarette; my property value was much less than that........ Let's pause here, please.So, what is the justification? It must be the bad karma from my previous births which should have caused such hardship. If I took some unwise decisions, that too happened because, I was controlled by illusion due to my bad karma from my previous births.Actually, I am going to stop my reply here. I wish to hear from the forum, the possible reasons for my past hardships, please. Thank you. Once I get few replies, I would continue to discuss further.

Dear Mr. Raghy,

The position of Hinduism on the karma and its fruits is this:

1. Your bad karma will result in sin and good karma will result in punyam.So both are burdens for one who wants to get out of the cycle of birth and death.
2. Your sins will dog you through your various births just as you enjoy the fruits of your good karma in these births.
3. It is not as if you suffer the effect of all your bad karma first and then after bringing the balance to zero you start enjoying the benefits of your good karma. They are suffered/enjoyed simultaneously.
4. When you sincerely believe in God(this is called ‘mahaviswasam’ in SV sampradhayam) and his boundless mercy, fulfilling the requirement that you completely wipe out your ego, --the entire process is called Saranagati in SV sampradhayam—God nullifies the entire sin as well as punyam earned by you and frees you from the birth-death cycle.
5. Even as he nullifies your sins and punyam (the karma palan) he gives you moksham(freedom) at the end of the current birth when you have surrendered to him. It is not that the moment you are accepted you die and go straight to God.

Though this is a very elaborate subject I have given here only a gist of what is very elaborate.

Now coming to your life story, I do not want to analyze it and find what went wrong. I understand your bitterness. But think for a moment about a newborn child with physical defects. While you had the freedom to feel bitter and complain, to steel your determination to get on top through all those repetitive tempering experiences you had, what did the child have? It did not even know its bleak future. And it was smiling always kicking in the air happily while throwing every one around into total misery. What can be the reason for this kind of disparity? Scientists can only say that the reason was because something went wrong at the genes level. But why should it happen in the case of this child and not in the case of its siblings? That ‘chance’ of its happening to any child is the balance of sin in your balance sheet coming into action. Mr. Raghy, you are lucky and the child is not that lucky-again the luck is because of your good deeds and the bad luck here is because of the sins accumulated.

“If I took some unwise decisions, that too happened because, I was controlled by illusion due to my bad karma from my previous births.” --you have said. The position in religion is slightly different. God allows your free will to act every time in the first moment and from that point onwards he permits you to proceed further in whatever you have chosen whether it is an action which will accumulate sin or whether it is a good karma resulting in accumulation of punyam. In Sanskrit it is said this way—In your ‘prathama prayathnam’ – ‘in the first moment’ God is ‘uthaaseenan’ (He is unconcerned/neutral) and from the second moment onwards ‘anumantha’ (He lets you do). So using the Chaitanyam with you because you are sentient you have full freedom to choose what you do. There will be no illusion clouding your vision due to your poorva karma palan when you choose to indulge in some bad deeds. You have to accept full responsibility for that as you have the free will to choose it.

Dear Mr. Raghy, this is a subject which has been argued in detail in our religious literature with quotes from scriptures. As my knowledge of Sanskrit is not adequate I usually refer to secondary sources such as what is available in Tamil and to what I learn from Acharyas listening to their lectures. You can take it that there are adequate proof in scriptures for this interpretation and that this is not a contrived logical formulation. If you are interested in going deeper into this question you can approach a learned acharya for that. I have not answered all your questions. But I think I have given you a reference label with which you can delve deep.

Cheers.

 

[ShivKC]

The atheist may not like suffering, but he has no reason to object it too.

Sri.Shiv sir, Greetings.
I did not say I was suffering in my life in post #1173. It was just my life. I was not complaing about that. By the way, I don't settle for 'something is better than nothing' philosophy. I work hard; if I don't get the result I sought, I even work harder to achieve the result I seek.
Cheers!

sh.ragy, i went to cloud no 9 for while, when I read you calling me "SIR" wish i had lot of grey hair like MF.hussain! even if one or two pops us, my wife ensure that's plucked when am asleep. would you please call me by name?

in my post, i was infering your personal thing. i know you are doing wonderful. my question to you was on an atheist view. though religion has given very many explanations about sufferings, my thirst is to know 'what is the atheism's answer to Sufferings/pain?"


where ever you go, what atheists do is, to eliminate the existence of god by quoting pain and suffering and eliminate god. interestingly, that stand by default infers that there is no 'purpose in our life on earth', and that there is no positive purpose in the struggles/conquests we face. that's indeed a dangerous situation, for any society.

what i wanted to ask you in that post is, do rejecting the existence of god remove the pain and suffering we experience?? i'm sure that stand is not to make our life any easier.

if there is no god and we have no purpose in life on earth, then the only easy solution/answer to chronic pain, huge debts, birth deforms, cancer, and all of the other things that afflict us is suicide / euthanasia. ending life for pain, would be the easiest and acceptable solution with atheism, unless we keep god or karma as an answer to those pains, with a look ahead towards future or life after death.

im not claiming here god is the ultimate convincing answer, but atheism fails to give me even a microscopical convincing answer about this dilemma.

rejecting god, setting no purpose for life on earth, and believing that the fittest will only survive, may sound good as long as you are fit& fine. but when old age, disease, and injuries set in, “survival of the fittest” is a destructive and pessimistic stand.

do you think, you can answer those things, with the absence of god and karma?

 

[niyengaar]

hi

God doesn't have a BlackBerry or an iPhone, but He is my favourite contact. He doesn't have Facebook, but He's my friend. He doesn't have Twitter, but I follow Him. He doesn't have Internet, but I am connected to Him. Copy and paste this as your status if you think ? GOD is GREAT


regards
tbs

so u r sure that is a "he" ? now lakshmi , saraswathi and parvathi are not going to be happy at you, are they ? and without those 3, neither will the "he" gods ...

 

[tbs]

so u r sure that is a "he" ? now lakshmi , saraswathi and parvathi are not going to be happy at you, are they ? and without those 3, neither will the "he" gods ...

hi niyengar,

அடியேனுக்கு தெரிந்தது இது மட்டும் தான் ....தவறு இருந்தால் மன்னிக்க வேண்டும்...

அடியேன்
tbs

 

[Brahin]

hi

God doesn't have a BlackBerry or an iPhone, but He is my favourite contact. He doesn't have Facebook, but He's my friend. He doesn't have Twitter, but I follow Him. He doesn't have Internet, but I am connected to Him. Copy and paste this as your status if you think ? GOD is GREAT


regards
tbs

God tussi great ho.

 

[Yamaka]

God tussi great ho.

Some people said that God is the Barber... my wife cuts my hair... She is my God! LOL:loco:

 

[ShivKC]

Some people said that God is the Barber... my wife cuts my hair... She is my God! LOL:loco:

an interesting clip copied from another forum:-


A man went to a barber shop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed. As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation. They talked about so many things and various subjects.

When they eventually touched on the subject of a God, the barber said:
"I don't believe that God exists."

Why do you say that?" asked the customer.

"Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn't exist. Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't imagine a loving God who allow all of there things"

The custome thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he did not want to start an argument. The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop. Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard. He looked dirty and unkempt.

The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber: "You know what? Barbers do not exist."

"How can you say that?" asked the barber. "I am here, and I am a barber, and I just worked on you"

"No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist because if they did, there would be no people dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside."

"Ah, but barbers DO exist! What happens is, people do not come to me."

"Exactly!" - affirmed the customer "That's the point! God, too, DOES exist!
what happens, is people don't go to Him and do not look for Him, That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."

 

[ShivKC]

brahin, nice if you could remove the post #1384. a sarcasm not in good taste, i think. thank u

 

[C RAVI]

Some people said that God is the Barber... my wife cuts my hair... She is my God! LOL:loco:

God is in every one who is in physical form as long as he/she is alive..

If your wife cuts your hairs, you call her GOD..That's good.

If your wife cuts your 1 time meal unreasonably, will you call her Devil? :eyebrows:

In fact, I believe, whatever a wife does, whether its cutting hairs or cutting one time meal unreasonably, still she is a GOD to give us what we deserve as per our Karma theory..

eep:

 

[Nara]

....If your wife cuts your hairs, you call her GOD..That's good.

Wife cuts husband's hair, yawn, it is not news. Google "wife cuts" to see wife cutting what is big news ....

 

[kkbros]

Guys
I 'm new to this forum. I have been reading the posts and have been mesmerized by the depths of argument. In my humble opinion, there is a non-believer in every believer (I 'm a staunch believer, but at times of extreme adversity, I would be lying if I said that I have never questioned the existence of God, even if it is only for a short-while) and vice-versa. I read an article a while back titled "God and Empirical logic", which I think is relevant to this thread. The article can be read at God and Empirical Logic. In brief, the article says that no scientist can prove non-existence of anything in a lab. It goes on to add that the supra-sensory perception that is God can never be proved by experiments (the realm of the empirical scientists). Might be a good read.

 

[amala]

Btw hope everyone has a great Janmashtami!

 

[sangom]

Guys
I 'm new to this forum. I have been reading the posts and have been mesmerized by the depths of argument. In my humble opinion, there is a non-believer in every believer (I 'm a staunch believer, but at times of extreme adversity, I would be lying if I said that I have never questioned the existence of God, even if it is only for a short-while) and vice-versa. I read an article a while back titled "God and Empirical logic", which I think is relevant to this thread. The article can be read at God and Empirical Logic. In brief, the article says that no scientist can prove non-existence of anything in a lab. It goes on to add that the supra-sensory perception that is God can never be proved by experiments (the realm of the empirical scientists). Might be a good read.

Shri KKbros,

First, a hearty welcome to this forum. Look forward to interesting discussions and knowledge from you.

I agree with your statement that "non-existence" of anything cannot be proved by science or logic. Our esteemed veteran Shri Nara uses the example of a pink unicorn, or a tea cup revolving around the Sun, as examples for this, because no one can disprove these.

My doubt is, is it necessary for us humans to believe in a human-shaped God, in order to spend our lifetime in this world? And, is it necessary to "pray" or meditate etc., to such a god/gods for "mukti" and is it really correct to believe that there is something called "mukti" or final liberation?

Hope to hear your views.

PS: Are you an individual or partnership "KK Brothers"? Will be grateful for clarification.

 

[kkbros]

Good question, KKBROS stands for Kumar and Krishna brothers. My name is Kumar and I share this "nomenclature" with my brother Krishna (in future, God willing, we will be able to register this as a partnership ). I have read somewhere, don't exactly remember where, about the need for a physical manifestation of God. In the first stage of God realization, we need something to focus on and what better way than to have an image looking exactly like ourselves? This is represented by the representations of Vishnu, Parvathi, Ganesha etc. The next stage of God realization, now we don't need an image reflecting ourselves to be able to focus, is being able to focus on an object (and what better shape for the object than the horizon? The Lingam). The final stage in God realization is being able to focus on no particular image, here we start focusing internally, if you get a chance to visit Aavudayar Kovil in TamilNadu, you will see that there is absolutely no image either in the Siva sannidhi or in the Amman Sannidhi (for non Tamils, Sannidhi stands for Sanctum Sanctorium). This is the highest form of God realization (the Chidambara Ragisiyam in Chidambaram is another example of idol-less worship).

The beauty of the Hindu religion lies in the fact that for people in various stages of God realization, there are methods of worship. As far as your question about Mukti is concerned, all world religions do talk about some form of "salvation". While I 'm not realized enough to comment on the concept of Mukti, I do believe (and there is some scientific evidence to the same) that the soul is present and that it even has a minute mass (In March 1907, accounts of MacDougall's experiments were published in the Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research and the medical journal American Medicine, while the news was spread to the general public by New York Times. He claimed to have proved that the soul has a mass of 21 grams, however this has never been reproduced). This mass has to get dissipated somewhere and hence there must be a concept mirroring "salvation" or Mukti.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Raju Sir, Greetings.

I refer to your post #1377. Thanks for your explanation for 'saranagathy'; it is very nice. I was not taking part in the forum for sometime. Kindly pardon me for not replying to your post. I will get back to adress your message, please. Kindly bear with me, please.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri.Shiv, Greetings.

I refer to your post #1378. I was not taking part in the forum much. Kindly pardon me for my delay. I will get back to address that message later, please.

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

KKBros:

"He claimed to have proved that the soul has a mass of 21 grams, however this has never been reproduced). This mass has to get dissipated somewhere and hence there must be a concept mirroring "salvation" or Mukti."

You have already acknowledged that this "21 gram soul" has never been reproduced...

Then, why do you use it to go after your conquering of "salvation" or "Mukti"?

IMO, "salvation" or "Mukti" are "concepts or ideas" BELIEVED by followers of some man-made religions...they are NON-EXISTENT in reality... they can only be relegated to the world of FANTASY...

That's all, if you ask me!

Cheers.

 

[kkbros]

Yamaka
Duly acknowledged. There needs to be a scientific explanation for the concept of life and this is what has been plaguing mankind from time immemorial. For believers like myself, it is easy to attribute it to God, Soul, salvation etc. For the countless rationalists out there, an explanation is needed. Several researches have been undertaken to explain the concept and I do not think there is any explanation for where the life force ("energy") comes from and where it goes. We can use the law of conservation of energy to explain the concept of rebirth ("energy can neither be created nor be destroyed, it can only be transformed"), but it still does not prove or disprove anything.

That in my humble opinion is the disconnect.

 

[sangom]

KKBros:

"He claimed to have proved that the soul has a mass of 21 grams, however this has never been reproduced). This mass has to get dissipated somewhere and hence there must be a concept mirroring "salvation" or Mukti."

You have already acknowledged that this "21 gram soul" has never been reproduced...

Then, why do you use it to go after your conquering of "salvation" or "Mukti"?

IMO, "salvation" or "Mukti" are "concepts or ideas" BELIEVED by followers of some man-made religions...they are NON-EXISTENT in reality... they can only be relegated to the world of FANTASY...

That's all, if you ask me!

Cheers.

Y,

I think this "supposed" 21 grams of soul matter getting dissipated (but the person who found it out probably did not subscribe to mukti) fits in perfectly well with the "supposed" salvation a.k.a mukti. Don't you think so?

 

[Yamaka]

Yamaka
Duly acknowledged. There needs to be a scientific explanation for the concept of life and this is what has been plaguing mankind from time immemorial. For believers like myself, it is easy to attribute it to God, Soul, salvation etc. For the countless rationalists out there, an explanation is needed. Several researches have been undertaken to explain the concept and I do not think there is any explanation for where the life force ("energy") comes from and where it goes. We can use the law of conservation of energy to explain the concept of rebirth ("energy can neither be created nor be destroyed, it can only be transformed"), but it still does not prove or disprove anything.

That in my humble opinion is the disconnect.

You may follow my views on another Thread "Seekers' Questions", if you want.

Cheers.

 

[ShivKC]

where is Brahin, who originated this thread?

 

[C RAVI]

where is Brahin, who originated this thread?

Probably Brahin was a "Maseeha" - A messenger of GOD, who orginated this debate to see how much humans have evolved and what they think of GOD. May be no need of him to come back here due no concrete conclusion can be expected for sure, that can be accepted by every member...

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

where is Brahin, who originated this thread?

Sir, I think he might have gone to bring God and show HIM to those who
deny HIS existence. ( don't take it seriously )

 

[Brahin]

Sir, I think he might have gone to bring God and show HIM to those who
deny HIS existence. ( don't take it seriously )

So some people finally miss me.

Bhagavad Gita - Practicing Presence of God