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God Exists

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Sir,
How can we forget you ? With over 25000 views and many people battling
to prove God's existence or otherwise , can anyone forget you ? The arguments
are running to 140 pages, yet we have not succeeded .

That is why it is rational to conclude that Agnosticism is the best policy :)
 
Middle path to keep changing the stand, depending on the people in the surrounding and the situations/events/circumstances demanding within onself ??? :)



Dear Ravi,

Agnosticism is not Middle Path. Agnosticism is just denial in another sense but keeping options open in case something beneficial comes up.Its like sitting on a fence.

Middle path is somewhat like what Lord Krishna had explained in Geeta:

sukha dukhe same kritva labhaalabhau jayaajayau
Having an equal mind in happiness-sorrow; gain-loss; victory-defeat;

This doesnt come easy..only realized souls are actually on the Middle Path not us mere mortals.
 
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Dear Ravi,

Middle path is somewhat like what Lord Krishna had explained in Geeta:

sukha dukhe same kritva labhaalabhau jayaajayau
Having an equal mind in happiness-sorrow; gain-loss; victory-defeat;

This doesnt come easy..only realized souls are actually on the Middle Path not us mere mortals.

Dear Renuka,

Correct me if I am wrong...

I think you are talking about composed attitude in one's life to take happiness-sorrow; gain-loss; victory-defeat, with having equal mind towards them.


---------------------------------------------------

I believe, this attitude has nothing to do with one's belief in GOD or not. It is just one's mental framwork, composed mind set and a total personality/individuality. One among many conbinations of human psychology.



But Agonstics are one who can not fully accept/beleive that GOD exists and can influence us some way. They are sceptical about GOD, but still can not refrain onself from doing things related to GOD.


Let me copy and paste the meaning from the online dictionary, to substantiate my above understanding of Agnostics...


ag·nos·tic

1. a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.
adj. 1. Relating to or being an agnostic.
2. Doubtful or noncommittal




Thus I consider Agnostics as those who are taking a middle path between God/Spirituality and Practical/Logical Sceince & Technology, with their rational brains...

As such, in my post #1404, I have stated - "Middle path to keep changing the stand, depending on the people in the surrounding and the situations/events/circumstances demanding within onself ??? :)", relating it to Agnosticism


 
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its the atheist way of denying inference.as i did not see the atheist me being made or agnostic me being made,i deny the existance or process of lovemaking to create me- huh!!
 
Age, knowledge of books, or birth and lineage does not guarantee understanding of true nature. Only introspection can lead to salvation.
Kabir das says:

"Bada Hua To Kya Hua, Jaise Ped Khajoor
Panthi Ko Chaya Nahin, Phal Laage Atidoor​

Translation
If You are Big so what? Just like a date tree
No shade for travelers, fruit is hard to reach​

Meaning​

Being big, aged, important, powerful, wealthy is of no consequence - Kabir likens this to a date tree that does not give shade to the traveller and its fruit is out reach.

Pothi Padh Padh Kar Jag Mua, Pandit Bhayo Na Koye
Dhai Aakhar Prem Ke, Jo Padhe so Pandit Hoye​

Translation​

Reading Books and Scriptures everyone died, No one became Pandit
Two and Half Words of Love, Who ever reads, Pandit he becomes​

Meaning​

Forget about book learning, no mater how many books you read, you won't become wise, you won't became the Pundit.. Words of love will make you Pundit. Try it.
Jaise Til Mein Tel Hai, Jyon Chakmak Mein Aag
Tera Sayeen Tujh Mein Hai, Tu Jaag Sake To Jaag


doha8_1.gif


Translation
Like seed contains the oil, fire in flint stone
The Divine is within you , realize if you can



Those Brahmin haters Pundit here is meaning learned person, please take off your caste glass. LOL

Non-hindi speakers: Prem written in hindi is 2 1/2 alphabets. प्रेम
 
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Bertrand Russell himself said he is an agnostic. The reason is simple. He can neither
prove nor disprove God. He has not denied the existence of God , nor has he
accepted God. They are not fence-sitters, but looking for proof either way.

Whereas the sages of our country have experienced HIM. It is just experiencing,
and not a question of seeing him in flesh and blood or in the form of mathematical
equations or scientific formulas.
 
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Dear Ravi,

Agnosticism is not Middle Path. Agnosticism is just denial in another sense but keeping options open in case something beneficial comes up.Its like sitting on a fence.

Middle path is somewhat like what Lord Krishna had explained in Geeta:

sukha dukhe same kritva labhaalabhau jayaajayau
Having an equal mind in happiness-sorrow; gain-loss; victory-defeat;

This doesnt come easy..only realized souls are actually on the Middle Path not us mere mortals.

This is sama-bavana, quite different from treading a middle-path between
acceptance or rejection of God.
 
Age, knowledge of books, or birth and lineage does not guarantee understanding of true nature. Only introspection can lead to salvation.
Kabir das says:

"Bada Hua To Kya Hua, Jaise Ped Khajoor
Panthi Ko Chaya Nahin, Phal Laage Atidoor​



Translation
If You are Big so what? Just like a date tree
No shade for travelers, fruit is hard to reach​



Meaning​



Being big, aged, important, powerful, wealthy is of no consequence - Kabir likens this to a date tree that does not give shade to the traveller and its fruit is out reach.

Pothi Padh Padh Kar Jag Mua, Pandit Bhayo Na Koye
Dhai Aakhar Prem Ke, Jo Padhe so Pandit Hoye​



Translation​



Reading Books and Scriptures everyone died, No one became Pandit
Two and Half Words of Love, Who ever reads, Pandit he becomes​



Meaning​



Forget about book learning, no mater how many books you read, you won't become wise, you won't became the Pundit.. Words of love will make you Pundit. Try it.
Jaise Til Mein Tel Hai, Jyon Chakmak Mein Aag
Tera Sayeen Tujh Mein Hai, Tu Jaag Sake To Jaag


doha8_1.gif


Translation
Like seed contains the oil, fire in flint stone
The Divine is within you , realize if you can



Those Brahmin haters Pundit here is meaning learned person, please take off your caste glass. LOL

Non-hindi speakers: Prem written in hindi is 2 1/2 alphabets. प्रेम
I will slightly change the order of these Dohe as under:

1.पोथि पढ पढ जग मुआ, पन्डित भयो न कोई ।
ढाइ अक्षर प्रॆम के जो पढॆ सो पन्डित हॊय ॥

pothi paḍha paḍha jaga muā, panḍita bhayo na koī |
ḍhāi akṣara prema ke jo paḍhe so panḍita hoya ||

This has to be seen in the context of Kabir's life and the relationship (or enmity) which the brahmins had towards Kabir during his lifetime. Here Sant Kabir is emphasizing the need for "prem" between humanbeings and not the questionable (according to me) type of prem which is nowadays sought to be marketed in the name of Krishna and his Rasleela. The doha adjacent to this, as I have found, goes like —

ऐसी वाणी बोलिये मन का आपा खोय़ ।
औरन को शीतळ करे आपु शीतळ होय़ ॥

aisī vāṇī boliye mana kā āpā khoẏa |
aurana ko śītaḷa kare āpu śītaḷa hoẏa ||

(Speak such words which drives away the fears from mind; which calms and soothes others as also yourself (oneself)).

2. बडा हुआ तो क्या हुआ, जैसे पेड खजूर ।
पन्थी को छाया नहीं, फल लागे अतिदूर ॥

baḍā huā to kyā huā, jaise peḍa khajūra |
panthī ko chāyā nahīṃ, phala lāge atidūra ||

3. जैसे तिल में तॆल है ज्यॊं चक्मक में आग ।
तेरा साई तुझ में है तू जाग सके तो जाग ॥

jaise tila meṃ tela hai jyoṃ cakmaka meṃ āga |
terā sāī tujha meṃ hai tū jāga sake to jāga ||

The word "pandita" meant "A learned Hindu scholar, especially having knowledge of Sanskrit, philosophy, religion and law." Generally brahmins were the only learned people in Varanasi during Kabir's times. It is also relevant that the short form of Pandaa, the surname Pande, Pandey etc., all emerge from 'Pandita'. Hence and having regard to the intolerance exhibited by brahmins towards Kabir which went to the extent of the brahmins complaining to the Emperor Sikander Lodi that Kabir was 'be dharam', he was having illicit relationship with a woman of ill fame and also Rai Dass, the chamar, of the fallen caste, and thus getting a sentence of death upon Kabir, my humble opinion is that Kabir could not have had anyone else in his mind except those unfeeling, inhuman brahmins when he spoke of Pandits and "prem".

And, Shri Prasad, here is something additional on which you may still decide whether Kabira was a friend of Brahmin Bashers or otherwise (emphasis mine please):

"Kabir saheb had occurred during regime of Delhi Sultanate. Sikandar Lodhi was the Sultan than at Delhi. He was a cruel ruler and everybody feared him because of his cruelty. Since Kabir saheb was raising a voice of protest against the religious ostentation's of both the Hindus and Moslems, Pundit, Mullah, Shaiv, Sanyasi, Bambhan and Baniya etc. all of them had begun to unite against him. Hindu Pundits said that Kabir was anti-religious, while Moslem Maulavis declared him a Kafir because he did not follow the Islam despite being a Moslem. But at local level, i.e. within Benaras, they did not succeed at suppressing Kabir.

But Pundits and Maulavis bother convinced that neither Hunduism nor Islam would survive unless and until Kabir was not suppressed and his tongue not reigned. Kabir regarded Pundit as a low grade creature and Mullah as devoid of knowledge. He said that Rama was present in his house, and temple and mosque are a place of keeping stone and discharging night soil… regarded Vedas and Qur-an as human creation… inspired each and all to seek Rama and Rahim, Keshav and Kareem in their own heart… declared fast, Ekadashi and Roza as falls… and said that pilgrimage to Kashi and Kaba, Dwaraka and Mecca was a wastage of time." Jab Mein Tha Tab Hari Nahin‚ Ab

The third verse above speaks of 'God within you', that is, it is this phenomenon we call as "LIFE" which verily is God. Many of the saints and Acharyas probably tried to express the same but in so far as Hinduism governed by the inerrant vedas were concerned, they could not go beyond what Sankara brought out in his advaita viewpoint.

tat tvam asi, ’காவியுடுத்தும் தாழ்சடை வைத்தும் காசினிமுற்றும் திரியாதே,...பரஞானதீபவிளக்கம் காண எனக்குள் சீதளபத்மம் தருவாயே’, ’வாசித்துக்காணொணாதது, பூசித்துக்கூடொணாதது, வாய்விட்டுப்பேசொணாதது, நாசிக்குட்ப்ராணவாயுவை ரேசித்தெட்டாத யோகிகள் நாடிற்றுக்காணொணதென நின்ற நாதா’, etc., appear to me to be the unsuccessful attempts to bring out that the Supreme God is nothing but what each one of us experiences as life. Religions have twisted this for their own ulterior and nefarious purposes, imho.
 
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"regarded Vedas and Qur-an as human creation… inspired each and all to seek Rama and Rahim, Keshav and Kareem in their own heart… declared fast, Ekadashi and Roza as falls… and said that pilgrimage to Kashi and Kaba, Dwaraka and Mecca was a wastage of time." Jab Mein Tha Tab Hari Nahin‚ Ab" Sangom in post 1412.

Yes... Vedas and Quran are human creation, for sure.

Yes... Pilgrimage to Kashi and Kaba, Dwaraka and Mecca IS a wastage of time and resources, period.

:)
 
all these scienticts are not undersanding science itself is a religion in its independent state.how elements were created?how humans were created?where are we from?where do we go fro here once the body decomposes?science explains very well.religion also explains well.both are one and the same imho.atheist cannot understand a religious person for whom,only god and his manifestation exist all the cosmic realms known to humanity.
 
all these scienticts are not undersanding science itself is a religion in its independent state.how elements were created?how humans were created?where are we from?where do we go fro here once the body decomposes?science explains very well.religion also explains well.both are one and the same imho.atheist cannot understand a religious person for whom,only god and his manifestation exist all the cosmic realms known to humanity.

Science, Engineering and Technology have solved all most all issues of man-kind. It has the potential to solve ALL mysteries.

a) Religion is just a Belief that there is a Super-Natural Agent - GOD - out there controlling everything... according to most Religions this Agent looks like a Super Man (Islam says God created Man in HIS image; Hinduism is also subscribing to this Human-Like Agent standing somewhere in the world controlling everything in this universe).

All this amount to some form of ILLUSION, so say the Scientists - the Atheists! Religion and Science are totally different - two ends of the pole.

b) Theism is a distinct STATE of mind (a feared mentality)..

Atheists are FREE thinkers not tethered to any Tradition and/or Superstition, and are FEARless people..

:)
 
Dear Yamaka,

Your post #1416:

Religion is just a Belief that there is a Super-Natural Agent - GOD - out there controlling everything... according to most Religions this Agent looks like a Super Man (Islam says God created Man in HIS image; Hinduism is also subscribing to this Human-Like Agent standing somewhere in the world controlling everything in this universe).

I am just curious. You have mentioned about Hinduism and Islam. You could have mentioned what Christianity says about this also for the benefit of the members. But you have not. Why? Just curiosity
 
Dear Yamaka,

Your post #1416:



I am just curious. You have mentioned about Hinduism and Islam. You could have mentioned what Christianity says about this also for the benefit of the members. But you have not. Why? Just curiosity



You see here we have even a Paranormal Agent..The Holy Ghost!!!
 
Science, Engineering and Technology have solved all most all issues of man-kind. It has the potential to solve ALL mysteries.

a) Religion is just a Belief that there is a Super-Natural Agent - GOD - out there controlling everything... according to most Religions this Agent looks like a Super Man (Islam says God created Man in HIS image; Hinduism is also subscribing to this Human-Like Agent standing somewhere in the world controlling everything in this universe).

All this amount to some form of ILLUSION, so say the Scientists - the Atheists! Religion and Science are totally different - two ends of the pole.

b) Theism is a distinct STATE of mind (a feared mentality)..

Atheists are FREE thinkers not tethered to any Tradition and/or Superstition, and are FEARless people..

:)


Unless scientifically and technologically inclined Atheists don't be free from the concept of GOD, Supernatural Powers, Atma, Karma theory etc..etc, how can the whole lot of human beings on this Earth can enjoy the benefits that science and technology is offering?

Unless there is a killer instinct in a Atheist - Scientiest, unless he has tremendous EGO (positive ego), to assertively ignore all such God/Religion related concepts and believe only in explorations, ideas, knowledge, all revolving around sceicne and to see what he/she has achieved for the better, how can the whole lots of human beings on this Earth can have luxurious and comfortable survival?

So, Atheist Scientists are those who have a set of rules, parameters, laboratories, formula etc..etc, to explore the hidden treasures of this universe in its physical form. They have a specific faith and are exploring the GOD's creation to unveil the existing intelligence in order to gain the maximum benefits out of it.

Humans are the most dangerous specious on this Earth, IMHO, if they fail to hold the fine qualities.


Humans with faith in religion are many who use the priniciples of religion in a twisting manner and fool others (some are into Jihad).

Humans with faith ONLY in science as well tend to use the prinicples in a tactical manner, develop deadly weapons and destroy land and kill people, in the name of war to gain over the other.


Theism is a distinct state of Mind -

1) A Feared mentality with respect to holding on virtues
2) A Complex mentality to explore and realize the hidden truth in its subtle form
3) A Broader mentality to realize and understand metempirical aspects of human survival
4) A Fine mentality that can influence even a in born Criminal and turn him out to be a most refined, beautiful and reghteous person.
5) A Wholesome mentality to give true sense to Humanism.

Atheism is a distinct state of Mind -

1) A Fixed mentality that can not see beyond the explorable truth.
2) A Fearless mentality that can not realize that "without a sense of fear, a human can end up doing blunders"
3) An Exagrated mentality that can not agree that a most intelligent and powerful force exists and can not be over ruled
4) An Intelligent mentality that can explore and offer many for better AND would explore and destroy many for the worst.
5) A Rational mentality that can lead to many betterment and also lead to many loss to the charm of human survival in common and in personal levels.



 
This is sama-bavana, quite different from treading a middle-path between
acceptance or rejection of God.

I still beg to differ..Threading a path between acceptance or rejection of God is not Middle Path.Thats just walking in the middle line of the road with traffic coming from both directions and still not decided to cross over to which path.
Thats a state of mind that is not yet decisive.Still at Manas function.Buddhi function still havent really come into play.

I have pasted this article before but its worth a read again;

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/divinelife/divinelaws2.asp
 
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Mr. Sangom Sir,
Now you are seeing Kabir through your colored glass.
I suggest you read up on Kabir.
Kabir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shri Prasad,

I don't know what makes you say that I am "seeing Kabir through (my) colored glass." and also advise me to "read up" on Kabir as though I do not have any idea about Kabir, his life and his works. Kindly be a bit more forthcoming so that I can understand your views properly.

I have always had respect for Kabir - but not veneration - because of his ability to gather the downtrodden folks under "kabir Panth" in an age when it would have been an impossibility for a lowly weaver to do anything about the established Hindu religion. In the link given by you also, I find the following remarks:—

He believed in the Vedantic concept of atman, but unlike earlier orthodox Vedantins, he spurned the Hindu societal caste system and murti-poojan (idol worship), showing clear belief in both bhakti and Sufi ideas.

As I said in my previous post it was not possible, even for the tallest of the advaitic acharya to understand that the "LIFE" flickering in each human body is the very Supreme Godhead. So naturally Kabir might have had to follow the general ideas acceptable in thise days. But when he says तेरा साई तुझ में है तू जाग सके तो जाग, it is clearly a pointer to the above truth addressed to the lowly population, in plain and simple terms; I don't think there is any need to make it convoluted by bringing in alien metaphysical concepts and thus make it complicated unnecessarily.
 
Science, Engineering and Technology have solved all most all issues of man-kind. It has the potential to solve ALL mysteries.

a) Religion is just a Belief that there is a Super-Natural Agent - GOD - out there controlling everything... according to most Religions this Agent looks like a Super Man (Islam says God created Man in HIS image; Hinduism is also subscribing to this Human-Like Agent standing somewhere in the world controlling everything in this universe).

you were not born before ,a sperm & egg fertilised.you are able to understand this wing to explanations from various sources.and now believe it becoz you witness it ,experiance it.god is partial.he reveals to one he chooses to be revealed & experianced,in some cases.sometimes he is impartial and reveals to one and all as hridayavaasi.can you see the various processes of the human brain?yet you accept,the mind ,consciousness?rofl.
All this amount to some form of ILLUSION, so say the Scientists - the Atheists! Religion and Science are totally different - two ends of the pole.

b) Theism is a distinct STATE of mind (a feared mentality)..

Atheists are FREE thinkers not tethered to any Tradition and/or Superstition, and are FEARless people..

:)

i do not fear anyone,only my actions which i dread at times.becoz my sense organs are not fully controlled by me ie " I " .

superstition-huh.can you explain the field of paranormal.?can you explain planchette or seance?can you explain the stage of "turiya"?my friend,i am a man of science & engineering and i do bullshit a lot,but you go ahead i am listening to you as well :)
 
"my friend,i am [COLOR=#DA7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important][COLOR=#DA7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important]a [/FONT][COLOR=#DA7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important]man[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR] of science & engineering and i do bullshit a lot,but you go ahead i am listening to you as well :)" post 1423.

Yes, there are many like you - men & women of Science and Engineering - here in this Forum... for their profession and livelihood they follow S E & T... then they quickly turn around to believe in the Super-Natural GOD - A Superman - standing somewhere and controlling THEIR activities all day everyday!

I assume they do this because of either Tradition and/or Fear and/or Superstition... they live a double-life; some called here it as "positive hypocrisy"... I call it simply HYPOCRISY.

No.. I don't believe in the so-called "paranormal"! To understand Illusionists, please watch "Gulzaarish".

:)

 
I still beg to differ..Threading a path between acceptance or rejection of God is not Middle Path.Thats just walking in the middle line of the road with traffic coming from both directions and still not decided to cross over to which path.
Thats a state of mind that is not yet decisive.Still at Manas function.Buddhi function still havent really come into play.

I have pasted this article before but its worth a read again;

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/divinelife/divinelaws2.asp

Renuji.
You have got me wrong. The verse from BG you have quoted means sama-bhavana.
It has nothing to do with treading a middle path. I hope this clarifies.

I have already read the link you have quoted , but that is rudimentary lesson.
 
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