God Exists

[Govinda]

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"I am sure if we have faith in God, HE or SHE WILL NOT LET US DOWN IN OUR LIFE." - post 1445.

India has about 900 million POOR people (defined as people making Rs 160 or less per day per person). Of this, about 800 millions are devotees of some God..

They pray everyday to their Benevolent God,,, still that God has totally forgotten them. HE has let them down in their life.

So, what happened to their Blind Faith?

Is it then, the so-called Janma Poorva Karma? Which even God can't rectify it?!!

All big HOAX....A design to cheat the masses!

Wait & watch.

Ancient India did not have this much poverty, it is all because of the squandering and invasions from 'Evil/Valueless' People from outside India. Plus, this stupid science and Tech. ravaged the agricultural structures of merA BhArat mahAn!

This has got to do with the ill-will otherwise called the 'Free-will' of the ignorant educated masses and the government.

 

[Govinda]

Persistent introspection or nididhyāsana as Acarya Sankara advocates, finding out the deficiencies in one's own character and behaviour and removing those defects and developing an attitude of universal goodwill and love - that alone will show one the path to overcome the karmic obstacles in one's life.

According to Sri Sankara, "The Jiva/Self/One's own is non-different from Brahman", why should Brahman meditate/contemplate on itself or its own creation and fix its own defects?

Also Sankara's world is an illusion and the Avidya is beginningless, when and how can the Jiva, Oops! Brahman, understand the ignorance and fix the errors?

In the Atheistic point of view, there is 'no Self' to accrue karma/wisdom. So, why should one develop an attitude of universal goodwill and love? The body anyway goes to dust one day, the object of life is pro-creation. If "survival" is also to be included in the game, then Violence is also part of the survival. But Anti-violence is also part of Surivival! And where is the need for correction of violence? "One's OWN" is irrelevant for Atheism! For Atheists, the 'Civility Watch', is a joke like 'God Exists' .

 

[Nara]

...Also Sankara's world is an illusion and the Avidya is beginningless, when and how can the Jiva, Oops! Brahman, understand the ignorance and fix the errors?

Govinda, of course, there are many holes in Advaitam, but the other Vedanta traditions like VA, D, and others have their share of holes too. These have been discussed at length earlier.

In the Atheistic point of view, there is no Self to accrue karma/wisdom. So, why should one develop an attitude of universal goodwill and love?

Love, compassion, altruism, these are natural instincts for humans. They have natural explanations, nothing to do with poorva-janma-karma.

Cheers!

 

[Govinda]

Love, compassion, altruism, these are natural instincts for humans.

Cheers!

When did they become natural instincts? Natural instinct of any 'living being' is to first satisfy, survive oneself. In a tsumani and hurricane or calamities, people would plunder/kill/ravage and steal food/money from the disabled/victims. In the case of deadly famines/hunger, people become barbarians. [Religion/Tribal sometimes become excuse!] If you go to Africa, people mugged/shot down for even few bucks. In such distressed conditions like in war, there are gang rapes.

So, the traits like Love, Compassion are just trained behaviours in a civilized society based on laws, ethics plus assuming the basic needs are met.

But, contrary to both examples, Japan stuck in tsunami maintained their peace, calm while those in other developed nations have resorted to crimes. Why? In both cases, they were trained and living comfortably, but the choice were individual. How come love, pity, honesty, compassion are not natural instincts for most humans in times of Self-Compromising Situations???

Doesn't that mean, those who have those emotions/qualities part of their Self are well-behaved than those who have them as part of their brain/mind(senses).

"Test a servant while in the discharge of his duty, a relative in difficulty, a friend in adversity, and a wife in misfortune." - Chanakya

 

[Govinda]

Govinda, of course, there are many holes in Advaitam, but the other Vedanta traditions like VA, D, and others have their share of holes too. These have been discussed at length earlier.

Nara,

My reply to Sangom, was Sankara's Jiva/Self is not individual. Thus, for Sankara and Atheists [who don't have Self], what is the need for 'Contemplation' [NiddhidAsana/Upasana]? There is nothing to achieve or correct. Violence or Peace are just different ways of Survival and Pro-creation, whichever comes easy for one's skill.

To cite an example: How was Alauddin Khilji wrong in chopping of all the Rajput Warriors heads and luxuriously SURVIVED as an Emperor in his palace of 1000 sons, sending 1/5th of the booty to Arabs for their survival? How are Muslims and Jews wrong in populating the world? Each one progresses in Darwin's terms (Survival of the Fittest)!

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

These days quite a few people only generally think of God when they have problems. Otherwise, majority including the present generation is slowly switching over to Aanmikam which you could explicitly see. Thank you for your message and let us drop with it. When we pray to God, we generally conclude that everyone including the animals in the world should live happily with prosperity.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur Chennai

 

[ShivKC]

Love, compassion, altruism, these are natural instincts for humans. They have natural explanations, nothing to do with poorva-janma-karma.
Cheers!

if traits of ' being selfish-predatory-survival' is the product of evolution, then altruism cannot clubbed there.
being 'selfish' as well, being an altruist contradict each other.


children are altruistic by nature, they share toys and sweets. here they claim, humans are also naturally selfish: why such dilemma?


did this dichotomy between being selfish and altruistic come from human ancestors, who were forced to find food together?

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Thank you for your explanation of difference. Altruism is nothing but a principle of considering the welfare and happiness of others before one's own i.e. it tantamounts to unselfishness Whereas dichotomy is separation into or between two stages/groups or things that are opposed - entirely different; in fact to cite an example the dichotomy between peace and war. Therefore one cannot do both. Children are plain hearted and innocent and are not exposed to the outside world. You may hence conclude that all these factors are not due to ancestors. Perhaps it may be due to the environment in which one grows i.e. negative and positive attitude enveloping the universe. That is why, we say at home, children should be taught good habits/practices and elders avoid doing anything wrong in front of them.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur Chennai

 

[kailash]

namaste,

mR^ityuproktaaM nachiketo.atha labdhvaa
vidyaametaaM yogavidhiM cha kR^itsnam.h .
brahmapraapto virajo.abhuudvimR^ ityu\-
ranyo.apyevaM yo vidadhyaatmameva .. 18..
saha naavavatu . saha nau bhunaktu . saha viiryaM karavaavahai .
tejasvinaavadhiitam astu maa vidvishhaavahai .. 19..

AUM shaantiH shaantiH shaantiH ..
iti kaaThakopanishhadi dvitiiyaadhyaaye tR^itiiyaa vallii ..
AUM saha naavavatu . saha nau bhunaktu . sahaviiryaM karavaavahai .
tejasvi naavadhiitamastu . maa vidvishhaavahai ..
AUM shaantiH shaantiH shaantiH ..
AUM tat.h sat.h ..

The above recognizes that there will be differences on matters of the veda and dharma between guru & shiShya and between two persons AND also between the myriads of me. Science, evolution and biochemistry also put in their two bits. If I were to go only by sheer science - my "good feeling" "altruism"etc. are due to a chemical - dopamine produced in the brain. Here is where kRuShNa and bhagavad gIta comes as always to the rescue... Action is the only permanent thing. You will judge yourself by your actions - not your thoughts. Others will judge you too by your actions. In order to save a drowning person, I must know swimming. I justify myself by Vivekananda's words - If you are a leader, lead, if a follower follow, otherwise please get out of the way! It is ok to walk out of the way too.

 

[Nara]

....Altruism is nothing but a principle of considering the welfare and happiness of others before one's own i.e. it tantamounts to unselfishness ......... That is why, we say at home, children should be taught good habits/practices and elders avoid doing anything wrong in front of them.

Balasubramanian, I am not sure what you mean. But it is a fact that altruism is hard coded into our DNA, it is as natural as many other emotions we experience naturally. If it is a learned behavior then one would not find it among animals, but its presence among animals is a well-documented fact. For more see this wiki page.

Religion, god and faith in the supernatural makes it possible for otherwise good people to behave badly.

Cheers!

 

[prasad1]

Altruism is an expression of concern for the welfare of others without any obvious benefit or motivation on the part of the individual expressing the concern. When people talk about altruism, however, they don't usually mean altruism in the biological or psychological sense. They refer to an act of kindness or expression of concern which does not carry a material benefit. For example, someone who donates money to a charity might be considered altruistic, because he or she does not benefit directly from the act. Conversely, someone who builds homes for the homeless for school credit is certainly performing a charitable act, but not an altruistic one.Many cultures view altruism as a positive personality trait, and altruistic acts are in fact highly valued. Many religions including Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Jainism, Hinduism, Sikhism,and Islam promote altruism among their followers, stressing the idea that people are not righteous if they cannot express unselfish concern for others. The ability to help others, even at personal cost, is considered an important part of the expression of religious faith for many people.

Generally it is culture based and not CODED IN DNA.

So culture less people generally will not have this feeling.

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

I totally agree with Mr Prasad. The definition to altruist is unselfish person. They carry out the activities altruistically.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[prasad1]

I totally agree with Mr Prasad. The definition to altruist is unselfish person. They carry out the activities altruistically.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

Mr. Balasubramanian,
Thanks for the compliment.
But watch out there is price and a target on my back. The arrows will come your way too. LOL

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Mr. Balasubramanian,
Thanks for the compliment.
But watch out there is price and a target on my back. The arrows will come your way too. LOL

The truth never fails. Perhaps we may have to face with courage and determination
as we have not mentioned anything which is not to be spelt out or exchanged.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur Chennai

 

[Haridasa Siva]

Religion, god and faith in the supernatural makes it possible for otherwise good people to behave badly.

Though this message (in post no.1460 of this thread) is carefully worded, it presents a bad picture of “believers”. I strongly object to this sentence. One cannot make such an insensitive statement irrespective of the diplomacy involved in its wording.

I request the moderator to have a look at this message and do what he deems necessary.

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

I would like to humbly submit and make it very simple instead of going on elucidating the issue and stretching it beyond certain limits.
for e.g. We all believe and accept that The Presence of the Supreme God, in the Sun and in the Solar System is Solar God. We call him Lord Surya. Similarly there are many planets and we have Avatars of them. We read through our mythological books that the Almighty or the Supreme God is 'omnipotent' i.e. having unlimited or very great power, similarly in some places it is referred to as 'omnipresent', i.e. present everywhere; and in some places as 'omniscient' knowing everything. We may not be able to go against nature in spite of our best efforts through scientific advancements; we can only get some useful data to the nearest extent possible; even if we know how a rose blossoms beautiful through plants i.e. God's (Almighty's power) creation, researchers or Scientists may not be able to produce a rose with the physical ingredients (water, minerals, air & sunlight) without sowing a seed or a bud. Therefore there is some Supreme Power above all which is evident.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur Chennai

 

[Nara]

Though this message (in post no.1460 of this thread) is carefully worded, it presents a bad picture of “believers”. I strongly object to this sentence. One cannot make such an insensitive statement irrespective of the diplomacy involved in its wording.

I request the moderator to have a look at this message and do what he deems necessary.

Siva, this must be a joke, right? If not, all I can do is sigh.

If you think about it you will see that what I have said is absolutely true. It is religion and belief in god that makes those god-loving Christian pastors in Uganda wanting gays to be put to death. I don't have to say anything about the god-loving Muslims, they are the group most loved to be hated here. As for Sanatana Darma, for all its glory, the god-loving Dharmashasthras are a testament to human cruelty.

So Siva, say it was a joke, if not, the weight of truth I am afraid is squarely on my side, and that truth as they say, can be bitter, but never fails.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

I would like to humbly submit and make it very simple instead of going on elucidating the issue and stretching it beyond certain limits.
for e.g. We all believe and accept that The Presence of the Supreme God, in the Sun and in the Solar System is Solar God. We call him Lord Surya. Similarly there are many planets and we have Avatars of them. We read through our mythological books that the Almighty or the Supreme God is 'omnipotent' i.e. having unlimited or very great power, similarly in some places it is referred to as 'omnipresent', i.e. present everywhere; and in some places as 'omniscient' knowing everything. We may not be able to go against nature in spite of our best efforts through scientific advancements; we can only get some useful data to the nearest extent possible; even if we know how a rose blossoms beautiful through plants i.e. God's (Almighty's power) creation, researchers or Scientists may not be able to produce a rose with the physical ingredients (water, minerals, air & sunlight) without sowing a seed or a bud. Therefore there is some Supreme Power above all which is evident.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur Chennai

Shri Balasubramanian,

As an agnostic I concur with you that there is some power which controls our life- birth and death being not yet completely under man's control. But the problem here in this thread seems to me to be that this power or GOD is what the Hindu scriptures describe in a myriad ways.

 

[ShivKC]

Siva, this must be a joke, right? If not, all I can do is sigh.

If you think about it you will see that what I have said is absolutely true. It is religion and belief in god that makes those god-loving Christian pastors in Uganda wanting gays to be put to death. I don't have to say anything about the god-loving Muslims, they are the group most loved to be hated here. As for Sanatana Darma, for all its glory, the god-loving Dharmashasthras are a testament to human cruelty.

So Siva, say it was a joke, if not, the weight of truth I am afraid is squarely on my side, and that truth as they say, can be bitter, but never fails.

Cheers!

if this mistake of few could be used as a tool to prove an ism/idelogy wrong, then we have mao,stalin,pol,SS pot etc etc are more than enough to prove atheism is much worse an ideology to follow.

very few would have been killed for being gay, suicide bombers or caste killing, where are these cruel men did much worse than any one could imagine of

 

[ShivKC]

Balasubramanian, I am not sure what you mean. But it is a fact that altruism is hard coded into our DNA, it is as natural as many other emotions we experience naturally. If it is a learned behavior then one would not find it among animals, but its presence among animals is a well-documented fact. For more see this wiki page.

Religion, god and faith in the supernatural makes it possible for otherwise good people to behave badly.

Cheers!

but.. but.. but seriously..

Researchers on altruistic behaviours among animals have been ideologically opposed to the sociological social Darwinistconcept of the "survival of the fittest", under the name of "survival of the nicest"—not to be confused with the biological concept of Darwin's theory of evolution. Insistence on such cooperative behaviors between animals was first exposed by the Russian zoologist and anarchist Peter Kropotkin in his 1902 book, Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism

The term altruism may also refer to an [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism_(ethics)"]ethical doctrine that claims that individuals are morally obliged to benefit others. Used in this sense, it is the opposite of egoism.[/URL]here, many a atheists who claim often 'i worked hard and succeeded to have 4 cars', is a type of egoism,which can be related to atheist views in turn goes against altruism.

 

[Nara]

if this mistake of few could be used as a tool to prove an ism/idelogy wrong, then we have mao,stalin,pol,SS pot etc etc are more than enough to prove atheism is much worse an ideology to follow.

There is a distinct difference if one is prepared to look at it rationally. I condemn Mao, Stalin, etc. for what they did. I condemn any ideology that seeks to achieve any goal through violence. But, I am yet to see any theist condemning the parts of their own ideology, one that is theirs merely by accident of birth, that is hateful to others.

Take for instance Martin Luther's "Jews and their lies", a book that whipped up already existing hatred for Jews to a stupor for centuries to come. The sordid history of Catholic Church with its inquisitions and support for Hitler is there for all to see. The Islamic law is full of violence towards kafirs that present company loves to highlight at every instance. Coming to Sanatana Darma, the Dharmashasthras have codes that are cruel for no reason, just so.

Now, how many Christian theists are ready to condemn Martin Luther for what he wrote that may very well have paved the way for the killing of 6 million Jews and many more millions? How many Catholics are ready to condemn their religiously sanctioned behavior of the past, and their support for Nazis? How many Muslims will reject the sword verses of Kuran? How many Brahmins are ready to condemn the Mathams that till to this day insist these Dharmashasthras are god's law?

The Stalins and Maos were violent men, they used their isms to hide behind and perpetrate their violence. However, in the case of religion, their own religion itself insists the faithful act in such abominable ways. These are coded into their isms, this violence is part and parcel of their ism, for them perpetrating this violence is god's work. There lies the important difference.

I condemn Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, for what they did. That does not change the fact that faith in religion and god makes otherwise good people act in bad ways. This is the question. If what I say is wrong tell me why. If it is correct, then there is no reason to take offense.

Cheers!

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

I do not want to debate anything more on this issue as I am a new person
to this forum and I am yet to assess my strength and weakness because
I am yet to establish myself potential. Let me put an end to this issue with
this.

Balasubramanian

 

[ShivKC]

There is a distinct difference if one is prepared to look at it rationally.

I condemn Mao, Stalin, etc. for what they did. //Take for instance Martin Luther's "Jews and their lies",// The Islamic law is full of violence towards kafirs that present company loves to highlight at every instance. Coming to Sanatana Darma, the Dharmashasthras have codes that are cruel for no reason, just so.

Now, how many Christian theists are ready to condemn Martin Luther for what he wrote that may very well have paved the way for the killing of 6 million Jews and many more millions? How many Catholics are ready to condemn their religiously sanctioned behavior of the past, and their support for Nazis? How many Muslims will reject the sword verses of Kuran? How many Brahmins are ready to condemn the Mathams that till to this day insist these Dharmashasthras are god's law?

The Stalins and Maos were violent men, they used their isms to hide behind and perpetrate their violence. However, in the case of religion, their own religion itself insists the faithful act in such abominable ways. These are coded into their isms, this violence is part and parcel of their ism, for them perpetrating this violence is god's work. There lies the important difference.

I condemn Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, for what they did. That does not change the fact that faith in religion and god makes otherwise good people act in bad ways. This is the question. If what I say is wrong tell me why. If it is correct, then there is no reason to take offense.

Cheers!

you said so, so, let me try to look at things rationally, i would love that too!!

i never expected you a learned professor who had even given HOME WORKs to few members here would go on to relate Nazi's with luther who was born four centuries before! nit picking here!~

lets be rational, as you wanted to be so!. do you know , few clowns and some dalit sites, who often claim that mein kampf hitler was influenced by his high priestess Savitri devi, for his racist supremacy ideology. if so, why hitler would gas the supposedly unproductive (underlined) handicapped/gays/senile? tell me, which religions promoted such things?

mulsims and swords! out of all the muslims you have come across in your personal life, how many were with swords and rdx under belly?

now coming back to your favourite claim of madams, how many hindus do practice untouchablity? lets for the argument sake say, madams do practice, how much its relevant to you, as the indian hindus in majority dont practise it now a days.

the central issue here is, religions in broad are far better than being an atheist, being nothing of guidance. murphy's law, some thing in better than nothing.

btw, you being a follower of 'survival of fittest', pol pots predatory action shouldnt be worrying you, indeed.. unless altruism is selectively not rooted in his dna.

after all, its his survival, and he dont need to bother about any religious injunctions..

and we have one pending subject from last post, to be discussed seriously..altruism

 

[Haridasa Siva]

Siva, this must be a joke, right? If not, all I can do is sigh.

If you think about it you will see that what I have said is absolutely true. It is religion and belief in god that makes those god-loving Christian pastors in Uganda wanting gays to be put to death. I don't have to say anything about the god-loving Muslims, they are the group most loved to be hated here. As for Sanatana Darma, for all its glory, the god-loving Dharmashasthras are a testament to human cruelty.

So Siva, say it was a joke, if not, the weight of truth I am afraid is squarely on my side, and that truth as they say, can be bitter, but never fails.

Cheers!

ShivKC has already replied you and I second him. I still chose to reply separately out of my respect for you. Your statement in the previous post is hurtful and one cannot attribute the acts of a few to the belief of the larger community.

 

[ShivKC]

Your statement in the previous post is hurtful and one cannot attribute the acts of a few to the belief of the larger community.

according to the ideology of 'survival of fittest' , the one's left without any divine guidelines, i think, the larger community should survive. after all, according to atheism, we are all predatory in nature!!

its applicable here in this forum too