God Exists

[Nara]

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....i never expected you a learned professor who had even given HOME WORKs to few members here

Haridas Siva, look here, yet another example of needless comment about me.

ShivKC, if you want a discussion you must first try to avoid making unnecessary personal comments like this.

the central issue here is, religions in broad are far better than being an atheist, being nothing of guidance.

No, the central issue at present is not this. The present discussion is about my comment, "Religion, god and faith in the supernatural makes it possible for otherwise good people to behave badly." I standby this.

I have shown this to be the case in my previous post. I condemned those mass murderers you often cite. Now, it is the turn of theists to do so if they can.

Will you condemn Martin Luther for all the vile things he wrote about Jews, if you are a Protestant? If you are Catholic, would you condemn the Church for all the atrocities it committed against a whole host of people, including the atrocities committed against the natives by Spanish conquistadors, inquisitions, support for Nazis, etc.?

It is clear that a practicing Muslim will never reject any part of the Kuran including the sword verses. Brahmins in turn will never condemn their Matams that hold Dharmashasthras as god-given laws, and I am an eye witness to many instances of some very loving people acting in the most vile fashion because of these Dharmashasthra rules.

These are the reasons why I standby the statement I made above.

btw, you being a follower of 'survival of fittest', pol pots predatory action shouldnt be worrying you, indeed.. after all, its his survival, and he dont need to bother about any religious injunctions..

One more unnecessary comment. Your comment reveals a total lack of understanding of what "survival of fittest" means.

First, nobody can be a follower of "survival of fittest" any more than being a follower of Newton's Laws of Motion, or a follower of penicillin, these are scientific discoveries, not some religious or political ideology to be a follower of.

Survival of the fittest means those features that help in survival and procreation will be naturally selected in a population and passed to the next generation. These traits can be ability to love and cooperate just as much as aggression.

In the long history of humans it is abundantly clear that the traits that aid survival are love, compassion, empathy, cooperation, etc. Some individuals are more aggressive than compassionate, but such people will find it hard and less likely to pass on their genes to the next generation.

It is a fact that over eons humans have become less aggressive overall. This trajectory is not always smooth, the downward trend shows jagged ups and downs, but the long term trend is unmistakeably downward. See herehttp://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/26/pinker-on-reason-and-morality/?ref=stevenpinker for a powerful argument that shows why rationality demands eschewing violence

So, survival of the fittest for humans is to love, empathize and cooperate with others, that is what maximizes your own chance to survive and reproduce.

Once more ShivKC, if you make any personal comment about me I will not respond, you have to carry on with a monologue.

Cheers!

 

[prasad1]

Shri Balasubramanian,

As an agnostic I concur with you that there is some power which controls our life- birth and death being not yet completely under man's control. But the problem here in this thread seems to me to be that this power or GOD is what the Hindu scriptures describe in a myriad ways.

The word 'yet' suggests that you think man controls the entire destiny of the known and unknown universe.
The power that is beyond human is what called Brahman. Everything including human creation, known and unknown is Brahman, the so called God.
I do not know your definition of God.

 

[prasad1]

Nara. your hurtful comments made against the majority of people here is deliberate. It might be clocked in politically correct format that does not irk the administrator of the site but is in plain view of others is what most of the comments are pointing out.

 

[Nara]

ShivKC has already replied you and I second him. I still chose to reply separately out of my respect for you. Your statement in the previous post is hurtful and one cannot attribute the acts of a few to the belief of the larger community.

Siva, that is fine, but I do standby my statement.

You take exception to my statement that was not about any person, not an indictment of anyone, it was about the nature of religious belief, any religious belief. But you felt so much hurt that you wanted the moderators to take note and take action. Yet, all the vile statements that people routinely make against me day after day did not make any impression upon you. I am sure you have your own reasons for it. Let it be.

Criticizing one's beliefs is what an argument is all about. If you say the very act of criticizing beliefs that I oppose is itself hurtful, then why have any discussion at all, we all can have a bhajan session instead. I reject such a view.

In the last few posts I have shown clearly why my statement that religion and faith can make an otherwise loving person act badly, is valid. Simply saying this is hurtful is not a proper response IMO. Tell me why I am wrong, I am willing to stand corrected.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Nara. your hurtful comments made against the majority of people here is deliberate. It might be clocked in politically correct format that does not irk the administrator of the site but is in plain view of others is what most of the comments are pointing out.

Instead of making assertive statements show me why I am wrong, and if you do, I will concede.

 

[Yamaka]

Nara opined "Religion, God and Faith in the Supernatural makes it possible for otherwise good people to behave badly".

I agree fully with this statement because it is quite possible for a good person behave badly because of practices of religion, beliefs in God and Supernatural Super Man standing somewhere in the Universe controlling ALL activities of the Universe.

Where is the reason to feel hurt here?

I think the Theists here are a bunch of very excessively emotional people!

ROFL.. then LOL.


ps. About a year ago this is what I read in Times of India: A father in UP poisoned and killed his own daughter who was an IT professional in Delhi. The crime she committed was that she married a man of a different caste, the father totally disapproved of.. You see here, normally this man was not a killer... but when his religious / caste Belief came on to him, he became a murderer.. He is in prison now.... perhaps, this is what religion does to normal people!

 

[Nara]

... See here for a powerful argument that shows why rationality demands eschewing violence

Here is a NY Times review of the book.

Evolution through random mutation and natural selection made us capable of love, compassion, and yes, aggression as well. The same evolutionary process also gave us rationality. It is the rationality of cooperation over aggression that has made humanity increasingly eschew violence.

Nobody will argue we are free of violence, that would be demonstrably absurd. But, it is rationality and the innate DNA bestowed capacity for love, compassion and cooperation that keeps the other DNA based natural instinct, namely aggression, in check.

All of this has nothing to do with religion. If anything, religion has served only to make people more aggressive as many religious wars in human history can attest to.

So, I firmly standby my statement, "Religion, God and Faith in the Supernatural makes it possible for otherwise good people to behave badly". This is not a criticism of any individual, it is an argument against religion and faith in general. Show me why I am wrong, instead of simply asserting this is hurtful to your beliefs.

Cheers!

 

[C RAVI]

So, I firmly standby my statement, "Religion, God and Faith in the Supernatural makes it possible for otherwise good people to behave badly". This is not a criticism of any individual, it is an argument against religion and faith in general. Show me why I am wrong, instead of simply asserting this is hurtful to your beliefs.

Cheers!

Shri Nara,

Theist as a follower of religion, with belief in God, spirituality etc., can be cruel, selfish, egoistic, abusive etc., behaving as a mere surviving species. Such people are a different lot who all think, they have the right to do anything to live their life to the fullest satisfaction and their personal GOD will stand by him/her to protect, grant and ever keep him/her happy.


Atheist as a non-beleiver can be leading his/her life as the same mere surviving species with the same attitude / perception / strategies, considering oneself as the deciding authority in one's favor. With a belief that one can control one's life with rational brain.

In the name of God theists go crazy irrespective of the religion they belong to, in their attempt to establish supremacy of their faith from the time imemorial.

Atheists go crazy with what they could physcially see and what they could perceive from their rational brain, in their attempt to acheive what they want, by any ways and means, as a standard natural procedures to succeed and survive.


A theist can be inhuman and so an Atheist can be.


All these theists and atheists are the same human beings who adopt different beliefs on selfish motive, with their own perception and justification.


Without realizing this many theists and atheists tend to argue in favor of GOD and argue against GOD respectively, in a broader sense, failing to see how humans can be tricky and tactical and can lead the discussion/debate without mutual acceptance.


If a person is theist, doesn't mean that he/she is the most refined person similar to Brahman. If a person is atheist, doesnt mean that he/she is humanist/naturalist and a refined person.


Both theist and atheist are the same human beings, leading life in this phsycial world with what their mind "can" perceive constantly or interchangeably, through out the life span.


So, citing devastating, threatening, spoiling, ruining theist or atheist, the discussion in favor and against the existence of the "GOD" can not be fructified satisfactorily.


On this Earth Humans are braodly divided into 3 categories - Theist, Atheist and Agnostics. Just based on their belief and perception. This clasificatioin does/can not invariably establish the good or bad qualities of humans.

To establish the supremacy of a religion, humans tend to explore and initiate all nasty strategies. To fool people in order to mint money, people from any religion apply all possible tricks, citing religion and GOD.

If we want to discuss on the Existence or Non-Existence of GOD, we need to avoid the qualities of mere humans who all are present in this phsycial world in different forms, colors and ideas, living their life as a surving species, under the controll of the nature.

Let us try to prove the existence and non-existence of GOD in a healthy manner, ignoring religion and malicious humans. That would be more constructing, desciplined and satisfactory, IMHO.

 

[prasad1]

I do not see the fun a few of you have in insulting and instigating the majority. This constant provoking is not doing any thing positive to the community. I have not seen 1 positive contribution from some of you other than badgering the rest of the community. When the community reacts to this constant provocation you call them emotional. This constant bullying has to stop.

 

[Govinda]

Nara,

Regd post#1482

Here is a NY Times review of the book.

Evolution through random mutation and natural selection made us capable of love, compassion, and yes, aggression as well. The same evolutionary process also gave us rationality.

A simple bean in the granary don't sprout without external agencies. A cup of milk needed an agency to become curd. Different states of matter e.g Water, are due to some agency.

How did that sudden/random mutation and natural selection occur among the Homonids to become humans?? Even before that how did that plant species become living species? Even before that how did that Primal Substance of Big Bang evolved into Forms of Cosmic Universe?? What is that FORCE behind all these?

Do you mean to say, Rationality is already in the Evolution/DNA? Who created the Rationality? Then, why are we different and varied?

]It is the rationality of cooperation over aggression that has made humanity increasingly eschew violence.

How did anyone learn rationality suddenly? Without a prior knowledge source or experience??

Even when there is an obvious dis-claimer that 'Tobacco are injurious to health', Smokers enjoy a pack daily. Knowledge was available to him, why didn't he give up? How did rationality not work here? So, does the same kind of flock, that were criminals, exploiters, become Cyber Hackers in the internet age [with math/science wizardry]. Why didnt the hackers, use the math/science wizardry for better upliftment of society?? May be because that evil DNA is pre-dominant in them

If it were wars in old civilizations of hitite, egyptian, symeria, in the middle ages they became nazi, communist, socialist wars, recently it took shape of religious wars. The slings to arrows to swords to bombs were the just the evolution of scientific means. The evolution of rationality does not happen in the wild minds with new Science and Tech!!

Where does Education, evolution play in the rationality? People start the idea of bullying at school age, then mature with ragging, black-mailing, bribery, abuse etc as they grow up, which happens even in higher educational institutes and orgs, and at all levels of society. Importance of Self over others, is the inherent thought/nature/DNA of every being!!!

All of this has nothing to do with religion. If anything, religion has served only to make people more aggressive as many religious wars in human history can attest to.

Science lacks to provide a coherent/cohesive thought/purpose of Reality and its evolutes. Science is also a knowledge source in terms of information, details, functioning of human system, but wouldn't aid in Self-Awareness or Correction.

It is individual's Experiences, Self-Awareness, their contemplation and corrections, help make one a better person. But, Understanding of Reality through a Valid knowledge source will quicken up such Self-Correction.

Unless the Evolution happens in the "meta" Self-Awareness [Realization of one's own faults] which can come only due to Personal experiences, there can be no Rationality in one's thought. Mere Education or knowledge sources, though are pointers, cannot change anyone's nature.

So, that Education or Knowledge Source should be based on enriching the body, mind and the Self. If the Religion or Science that don't match with such Value Based Knowledge, they cause more havoc.

This is exactly why our Rishis are called Seers [who foresee the future and consequences and gave a disciplined/spiritual approach] whereas the blind- seekers called Scientists like Yamaka, invented nuclear-fission for their own curiosity [ate more glucose than sucrose!] hijacked by the Nazi like dictators and the greedy VaishyAs of every country.

Nobody will argue we are free of violence, that would be demonstrably absurd. But, it is rationality and the innate DNA bestowed capacity for love, compassion and cooperation that keeps the other DNA based natural instinct, namely aggression, in check.

Where does that DNA come from? Why are the DNA's different? Do we have both the DNA's??

 

[Yamaka]

"This is exactly why our Rishis are called Seers [who foresee the future and consequences and gave a disciplined/spiritual approach] whereas the blind- seekers called Scientists like Yamaka, invented nuclear-fission for their own curiosity [ate more glucose than sucrose!] hijacked by the Nazi like dictators and the greedy VaishyAs of every country." post 1485


Look around you, Science, Engineering & Technology (SET) has enriched YOUR life so much.. now you so recklessly "shooting yourself on your foot"...How could you enjoy the fruits of SET and turn around and bad-mouth it?

What kind of character is this?

What a tragedy! This is what the so-called the ILLUSION of God and SEERS can do for you!

Enjoy this double-life of ILLUSION...and FANTASY.

 

[Yamaka]

I do not see the fun a few of you have in insulting and instigating the majority. This constant provoking is not doing any thing positive to the community. I have not seen 1 positive contribution from some of you other than badgering the rest of the community. When the community reacts to this constant provocation you call them emotional. This constant bullying has to stop.

Take a deep breath... slowly exhale inside a brown-bag!

 

[nachi naga]

actually i need yamaka,nara,sangom to post for me it increases my faith exponentialy.russia or comies rejected god where are they now but usa the god loving country is growing sterength every moment of the day/night.sarvam brahman mayam.the best way to make your dream come true is to wake up and smell the coffee.the sense organs are so crucial for perception which atheist lack-one god gene missing

 

[Yamaka]

actually i need yamaka,nara,sangom to post for me it increases my faith exponentialy.russia or comies rejected god where are they now but usa the god loving country is growing sterength every moment of the day/night.sarvam brahman mayam.the best way to make your dream come true is to wake up and smell the coffee.the sense organs are so crucial for perception which atheist lack-one god gene missing

China -the former Commies - the Non-Believer nation is also flourishing well according to most people here!

US is a Pragmatic Land where most people just "Trust in God".. not Christ..Allah.. Krishna.. Shiva or whoever.. for most of them Christmas is Santa and his gift-sharing... not going to Church en mass (except a few handful of nuts!).

For most of "religious Americans" it's an expression of some sort of Past Culture... most believe in Nature. That's all.

Can your ILLUSION of GOD smell coffee or understand the ATGC nucleotide sequence of the genes?

 

[prasad1]

I would like these Hindu, brahmin, religion, india, haters to go through your post and find 10% of positive things you have done in your life. You have been just complaining or insulting others. Just because the administrator is lenient does not means that you are loved in this site. You actually choke off an honest conversation between us Tamil Brahmis's. You have hijacked the site.

The terrorist achieved the results in US by forcing us to change our life style. If that is the same results you wanted you have succeeded it. That should put a smile on your face and now go to sleep.

 

[Govinda]

Look around you, Science, Engineering & Technology (SET) has enriched YOUR life so much.. now you so recklessly "shooting yourself on your foot"...How could you enjoy the fruits of SET and turn around and bad-mouth it?

Enjoy this double-life of ILLUSION...and FANTASY.

Silica and elements comes earth, electricity comes from natural resources, Force/pressure/Volume etc, in & between materials creates Energies, we are a product of nature (sperm/egg, food, prana), From all these these Scientific Inventions take shape. So, your ST&E dont create any from stratch.

What do you own yourself????? Everything is the product of creation (we call it Nature and God) and you call it Spaghetti MONSTER !!!!!!!!!!!!! You guys are the Hypocrites to benefit from the MAGNIFICENCE and the GRACE of the CREATOR!!!

 

[Nara]

...A theist can be inhuman and so an Atheist can be.

Ravi, this is not what I am talking about. There are all kinds of people in this world. Being a Theist or an Atheist does not necessarily mean the person is moral or not.

My contention is not this at all. I request you to understand what I am saying, which is, an otherwise loving and compassionate person is made to act badly because of religion, god, and faith in the supernatural. Your argument that there are good and bad people in all groups does not speak to my thesis.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

.....Where does that DNA come from? Why are the DNA's different? Do we have both the DNA's??

Govinda, there is lot of resources online about evolutionary biology and DNA. Anyone truly interested in verifiable, authentic, scientific knowledge can get it. I can also give you further reading list after that. But, instead, if you want to believe the source of DNA and all other natural phenomena is Ishwara, then, I shall bid peace to you, we shall live in two separate ships passing each other at night.

peace ....

 

[Nara]

I would like these Hindu, brahmin, religion, india, haters to go through your post and find 10% of positive things you have done in your life.

prasad1, this is an outrageous and provocative statement.

First off, India does not belong to Hindus and Brahmins and neither is it a religious country. Your use of the word "hater" is a reflection of your continuing and overly irrational ad hominem condemnation.

Secondly, IMO, those who point out the anachronistic nature of Brahminism are the ones who are actually doing anything positive to the community. Those who defend Brahminism are the ones who actually do grave disservice to the ordinary lower middle class Brahmins, many of whom I have encountered and had the honor of helping.

I hate to toot my own horn, but you keep repeating this canard about doing something positive. What I do positive for my fellow human beings is none of anybody's business. In this forum all you can judge is what I say, what I do is for me to know, to say what they are is self-serving tooting.

You have been just complaining or insulting others.

The mendacity of this statement is breathtaking. prasad1, please prove this statement if you can. Cite any statement I made or anybody else from "my side" that can be construed as insulting to any individual. In this context, you need to understand the difference between criticism of ideas and views, vis a vis criticism of individuals.

The reality is, it is you, and few others, who have repeatedly made derogatory and insulting personal remarks, not anyone from "my side". Take this as a challenge, show us these "insulting others" comments. Remember, criticism of ideas and beliefs don't count, only personal insults in which you guys repeatedly indulge in count.

Just because the administrator is lenient does not means that you are loved in this site.

Sorry prasad1, you are wrong, not about Praveen being lenient, he is, but not in the way you mean. He is lenient with all the personal insults you people keep piling on us day after day. I have been around this site for a long time and I know for a fact even people who disagree with me quite intensely, like Saidevo, Siva, Raju(?) don't question my integrity and honesty. This is not about leniency, it is about honesty, civility, and such things.

You actually choke off an honest conversation between us Tamil Brahmis's. You have hijacked the site.

You are dead wrong. We ache for honest conversation, instead, what we get are personally insulting comments. Try presenting arguments without telling us how horrible we are, and you will see a spirited and healthy conversation developing. Nobody can hijack this site, not you, not us.

The terrorist achieved the results in US by forcing us to change our life style. If that is the same results you wanted you have succeeded it. That should put a smile on your face and now go to sleep.

If only this is true, not the part about terrorist -- see, an example of what I am talking about, you have to insult us by comparing us to terrorists, only that can satisfy your ego?

Yes, my mission is to motivate (not force, even if I try I can't force anybody) Brahmins to change their POV. Contrary to what you say, this mission is nowhere near accomplished. I shall not sleep, in the figurative sense of course, until it is, all the insults and personally degrading comments directed at me not withstanding.

Cheers

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Good bye to this issue.

There is a clear and ample distinction between spirituality and religion. It is said that religion tends to be sectarian.
It is based on belief and partially distorted by some of the followers. It all depends on one's own faith on
account of instances, occurrences, etc. make them to reach a destination.

After my retirement, I started spending lot of time reading different religious books, particularly mythological leads,
ancient temple history books, rudram, samakam, etc. Sometimes, I go on temple tours and attend satsangam
lectures and pravachanam of learned people. I can say I am a very simple person and I do not have anything
to boast myself that I know everything. Whatever little knowledge, I come across through reading books;
gather through temple visits, etc., I do not go through nets and download information for submitting in this
forum. I wanted to share with my brahmin community. I do not want to enter into controversy any more.
My wife, whom I show about the information I share with you in this forum, has mentioned that let us get out
of this unwanted misunderstanding dialogues any more. I do not want to hurt anybody's feelings. My conscious
says that the "existence of God is self evident" which no one can deny. Thank you for giving me an opportunity
to share my views on this issue so far.

Balasubramanian

 

[renuka]

Good bye to this issue.

There is a clear and ample distinction between spirituality and religion. It is said that religion tends to be sectarian.
It is based on belief and partially distorted by some of the followers. It all depends on one's own faith on
account of instances, occurrences, etc. make them to reach a destination.

After my retirement, I started spending lot of time reading different religious books, particularly mythological leads,
ancient temple history books, rudram, samakam, etc. Sometimes, I go on temple tours and attend satsangam
lectures and pravachanam of learned people. I can say I am a very simple person and I do not have anything
to boast myself that I know everything. Whatever little knowledge, I come across through reading books;
gather through temple visits, etc., I do not go through nets and download information for submitting in this
forum. I wanted to share with my brahmin community. I do not want to enter into controversy any more.
My wife, whom I show about the information I share with you in this forum, has mentioned that let us get out
of this unwanted misunderstanding dialogues any more. I do not want to hurt anybody's feelings. My conscious
says that the "existence of God is self evident" which no one can deny. Thank you for giving me an opportunity
to share my views on this issue so far.

Balasubramanian

Well said sir..After a while all this controversial meaningless debate is actually no use and a waste of time.
There are lots of other useful threads in forum you can contribute sir..hope to see more of you in other threads.

renu

 

[Yamaka]

"You guys are the Hypocrites to benefit from the MAGNIFICENCE and the GRACE of the CREATOR!!!"-poster 1491

Man CREATED all Ghosts, Gods and Religions to control, to regulate, to manipulate and probably to cheat masses...period.

Some of those men were called Rishis.. or the Seers... or the Seekers of Superstitious followers! They have plenty of them.

The Opening Poster here called his God as like a Barber... He claimed if you pay money to his Barber God, then HE will take care of you by cutting your hair!

So, the conclusion is the Barber God needs money for the service! OP may say, "NO... devotees should just see the Barber God for help"

I said nearly 800 million poor Indians who make about $1.50 a day, have been worshiping their God for their whole life - like going to the Barber.... but the Barber God did not do anything to uplift the poor devotees.

Therefore, that Barber God does not exist.

Where does YOUR God Exist? In your ILLUSION... in your FANTASY.

SET converts silica into usable asset.. converts natural resources in to usable electricity... manufactures engines from simpler components.

SET is the knowledge acquired by constant thinking, hypothesis, and experimentation.

If I were you - the Believer of the Puronic Gods - I will quit my profession in SET immediately... <edited>

I don't call my God a Barber!

Stop living a double life!


​

 

[Govinda]

Good bye to this issue.

Balasubramanian

Exactly, each finds their own way. Science followers or Theists or working in both, can definitely work on improving the society in their better ways (goal). We should be talking about the means within our own principles.

 

[renuka]

Dear Yamaka,

You wrote:

If I were you - the Believer of the Puronic Gods - I will quit my profession in SET immediately..I also removed some words since Praveen edited original post.

I object to this statement.
I have edited my post since Praveen has edited the original post of Yamaka.
So case close.

 

[sarang]

Your humility speaks volumes of your character, devotion and tolerance. You must continue to post what you learn or experience as that will help in clarifying your thoughts and moving up in the spiritual path.

We believe in 'live, let live', I will follow mine, you follow yours' doctrine and practice it to a great extent. But the other group is keen to destroy our values, traditions and way of life and do not hesitate to hide such nefarious intentions. I will have no quarrel with them if they leave us alone and mind spread their ideology among other believers too (abrahamic religions).

Good bye to this issue.

There is a clear and ample distinction between spirituality and religion. It is said that religion tends to be sectarian.
It is based on belief and partially distorted by some of the followers. It all depends on one's own faith on
account of instances, occurrences, etc. make them to reach a destination.

After my retirement, I started spending lot of time reading different religious books, particularly mythological leads,
ancient temple history books, rudram, samakam, etc. Sometimes, I go on temple tours and attend satsangam
lectures and pravachanam of learned people. I can say I am a very simple person and I do not have anything
to boast myself that I know everything. Whatever little knowledge, I come across through reading books;
gather through temple visits, etc., I do not go through nets and download information for submitting in this
forum. I wanted to share with my brahmin community. I do not want to enter into controversy any more.
My wife, whom I show about the information I share with you in this forum, has mentioned that let us get out
of this unwanted misunderstanding dialogues any more. I do not want to hurt anybody's feelings. My conscious
says that the "existence of God is self evident" which no one can deny. Thank you for giving me an opportunity
to share my views on this issue so far.

Balasubramanian