God Exists

[ShivKC]

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I have shown this to be the case in my previous post. I condemned those mass murderers you often cite. Now, it is the turn of theists to do so if they can.

you and i may condemn, but polpot may not condemn stalin, why? or on what authority/ideology nazis would get the right to condemn pol pot?

these kind of eg of luther/inquisitions/mutts or even my counter with pol pot/stalin are just a shooting arrows, but dont lead to a discussion in a broader angle.

here we need to move a step further.

luthers jewish remarks/catholic church's inquisition/madhams supporting varna/jihad etc all can always be reconciled with their scriptures. how many true hindu's practice madham's idea of caste? haven't you seen people here many standing up against untouchablity, and imam's often issuing press statement condemning kaffirs. the beauty of following religion is, these nit pick issues of religion and scriptures, always has an a option to get reconciled, by referring to its central theme, like 'no to killing/ love ' etc, which is a core theme of all religions.


where as, pls have a look at the dangerous precedence what atheism could lead to .. atheism only can say 'love,compassion and altruism is a product of evolution' as already codified in DNA. for argument sake, let me temporarily buy this statement. then why this evolution, which has universally given the skills of walking upright/stero vision has failed to mandate the traits of altruism/love equally in all men? hope you wont throw a rejoinder quoting born handicapped and color blind.

even if i have to buy yours, does atheism or evolutionary trait, can force mandate other to do good deeds, apart from citing good karma? you may be good, but on what basis, other than referring divinity, you get the right to condemn pol pot. luther/pope/imams/mutts/ or any wrong in corners of the world, can be condemned by the scriptures, but an atheist looses the right to condemn, cos he who believes no divine authority, gets no authority over other person, than whats given by the law of the land. in nutshell, an atheist who lives in USA get no right to condemn Nazi's, cos, the law of USA cannot be applied in germany, and he has to be content, where as a theist can say, this world is gods, and nazi's lands is also god's land, and god said killing is wrong, and hence a theist in india gets a right to condemn germans, but an atheist looses such right.

i can condemn any religious heads and say, your killing is wrong, because god said so! no law can catch me, other than god, if i looked down upon my fellow men. this shouldn't be troubling atheists, cos i have still not violated the law of land. this is the dangerous thing, atheism could bring it. that's one reason, inspite of the tremendous growth of science, atheism still remains at fractional percentages globally, indicatively for the last 1000 years.

remember, some time i asked this question in this forum, ie, before blaming religions, lets quantify (with scholarly back up) the killing done in the name of god Vs others. some one responded with a big 'NO'. whats your take on this?.

will touch upon evolution Vs Altruism in the next post.

PS: re your ref to my personal attack, i thought it would be an accepted norm with you, since in few posts, yourself called nacchinarkininiyan as 'thotta chinungi' (i know how he was hurt,when i read his PM) and recently you gave a 'home work' to another member weeks ago. let there be light, but no two-yardsticks or holier than thou attitudes. having said that, hence forth i would be extra careful in not letting the cat out of the bag and use such words. i promise you

 

[ShivKC]

I said nearly 800 million poor Indians who make about $1.50 a day, have been worshiping their God for their whole life - like going to the Barber.... but the Barber God did not do anything to uplift the poor devotees.


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Yam, instead of rabbiting on India/ Hinduism /1.50$ (actually its further low, Rs.37 BPL),

could you please give a supporting global data to prove that, the GDP of the countries with atheist majority fare well than those filled with theists. i would appreciate that.

if you wish to quote south America / africa, then provide some data on their economies, before their god head era. also, dont forget, the country which boasts of numero uno rank in global economy, has not forgotten to engrave its currency template with 'in god we trust'

 

[ShivKC]

Good bye to this issue.

There is a clear and ample distinction between spirituality and religion. It is said that religion tends to be sectarian.
It is based on belief and partially distorted by some of the followers. It all depends on one's own faith on
account of instances, occurrences, etc. make them to reach a destination.

Sir, you shouldnt get succumbed to emotions and call it a quit.. please stay on.. i have few points to support you.

yes religions are sectarian, and atheist may pound on you citing few weakness.


but look at the larger beauty of being the follower of religion and its advantages.

1) all religion delivers punishment for wrong, even if you escape the law of the land, where as atheism, it all ends with death. according to atheism, any one who takes a machine gun, go for a shooting spree and kills 1000s and himself , gets no punishments, where as religion gives answers to such persons.

2) atheism lets you go on your own way, as you are just another part of evolution, where as theism gives guidance to you and to your children, and gives the right to condemn if anything happens wrong around you.

3) without religion, we loose the right to condemn the killing, globally..

list goes on... lets explore.. lets not confine to spirituality alone, and discard religion, just as a easy route to escape from the attacks of atheists..please stay on sir.

 

[C RAVI]

Buddha explanation on existence of God

Once it happened: Buddha entered a village. A man asked him as he was entering the village, "Does God exist?" He said, "No, absolutely no."

In the afternoon another man came and he asked, "Does God exist?" And he said, "Yes, absolutely yes."
In the evening a third man came and he asked, "Does God exist?" Buddha closed his eyes and remained utterly silent. The man also closed his eyes. Something transpired in that silence. After a few minutes the man touched Buddha's feet, bowed down, paid his respects and said, "You are the first man who has answered my question."

Now, Buddha's attendant, Ananda, was very much puzzled: "In the morning he said no, in the afternoon he said yes, in the evening he did not answer at all. What is the matter? What is really the truth?"

So when Buddha was going to sleep, Ananda said, "First you answer me; otherwise I will not be able to sleep. You have to be a little more compassionate towards me too. I have been with you the whole day. Those three people don't know about the other answers, but I have heard all the three answers. What about me? I am troubled."
Buddha said, "I was not talking to you at all! You had not asked, I had not answered YOU. The first man who came was a theist, the second man who came was an atheist, the third man who came was an agnostic. My answer had nothing to do with God, my answer had something to do with the questioner. I was answering the questioner; it was absolutely unconcerned with God.

"The person who believes in God, I will say no to him because I want him to drop his idea of God, I want him to be free of his idea of God -- which is borrowed. He has not experienced. If he had experienced he would not have asked me; there would have been no need.

"The person who believed in God, he was trying to find confirmation for his belief from me. I was not going to say yes to him -- I am not going to confirm anybody's belief. I had to say no, I had to deny, just to destroy his belief, because all beliefs are barriers to knowing the truth.” Theist or atheist, all beliefs, Hindu or Christian or Mohammedan, all beliefs are barriers.

Buddha further said "And the person with whom I remained silent was the right inquirer. He had no belief, hence there was no question of destroying anything. I kept silent. That was my message to him: Be silent and know. Don't ask, there is no need to ask. It is not a question which can be answered. It is not an inquiry but a quest, a thirst. Be silent and know.

I had answered him also; through my silence I gave him the message and he immediately followed it -- he also became silent. I closed my eyes, he closed his eyes; I looked in, he looked in, and then something transpired. That's why he was so much overwhelmed, he felt so much gratitude, for the simple reason that I did not give him any intellectual answer. He had not come for any intellectual answer; intellectual answers are available very cheap. He needed something existential -- he needed a taste. I gave him a taste."

Source: I got to know this story from one of my friends. This story was told by Osho.

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"SELF REALIZATION" is the essence of experiencing the "LIFE" and realizing the "GOD". Nothing in common can be expected as conclusion here, in this thread, IMO.



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[guruvayurappan]

namaskaram!
exactly GOD will help who need it.
but GOD is like our mother and should he not take care even if we not prayed to HIM?
pl.clear my doubt even though you may think me agnani..

 

[guruvayurappan]

very nice article and the quote in anbe shivam is also good

 

[prasad1]

Sir, you shouldnt get succumbed to emotions and call it a quit.. please stay on.. i have few points to support you.

yes religions are sectarian, and atheist may pound on you citing few weakness.


but look at the larger beauty of being the follower of religion and its advantages.

1) all religion delivers punishment for wrong, even if you escape the law of the land, where as atheism, it all ends with death. according to atheism, any one who takes a machine gun, go for a shooting spree and kills 1000s and himself , gets no punishments, where as religion gives answers to such persons.

2) atheism lets you go on your own way, as you are just another part of evolution, where as theism gives guidance to you and to your children, and gives the right to condemn if anything happens wrong around you.

3) without religion, we loose the right to condemn the killing, globally..

list goes on... lets explore.. lets not confine to spirituality alone, and discard religion, just as a easy route to escape from the attacks of atheists..please stay on sir.

Yes Shiv hatred is a bigger motivator than love. But the atheist are such a minority in the world, that they would like to show a united front. But if you dig deeper there are various shades among them. This according to dictionary.
Agnostics,
Pure Atheists,
Radical atheist,
Rationalist,
Weirdoes,
Forteans,
Weak atheists,
Strong atheists,
God Haters,
Ignorants.

Of course they present and clock themselves in the glory of other known atheist. Every party out of favor or office presents a unified presence till they see money or power. Once they are in power they fall apart, and start to bicker among themselves naturally as "they" and they alone know it all

 

[prasad1]

Ravi beautiful post#1504.
But I am afraid any form of pacification is treated as a weakness.
But we have to try to stop this constant battle, which is sapping exchange of information.

 

[sangom]

While belief in God may not be a bad thing by itself, it becomes an unsatisfactory trend when such belief tends to occupy the major portion of one's attention. I have heard a statement in the West which goes —

"All the christians come out on Sundays but on Monday they disappear!
On a weekday, it is nearly impossible to tell a Christian from an atheist."

This state of a healthy distance from religion and the consequent liberation from superstitions of many hues, has possibly enabled the Western society to emancipate much more than most oriental societies and become the "developed countries of the world" which attract even our tabra youth (as also their aged parents) increasingly as time passes. While some weak claim may be made to the effect that the NRI of US or UK or other developed countries "essentially follow" a lifestyle similar or even identical to what they would have done have they been living back home in their native village agrahaarams in TN and all that sort of platitudes, it will be very obvious to anyone who has some familiarity with the way of life of our younger generation abroad that all such claims are not borne out by reality.

Most of the gen-next youngsters abroad have got accustomed to non-veg food and similar other life-style norms of the Western culture and that is what enables these young people to live and work there comfortably and compete with the local talent and emerge successfully. Many of these youngsters may put on a picture that they have changed very little from the way they were brought up by their (conservative) parents.

Please note that I am not advocating atheism nor even agnosticism. In India (and many of the other countries) where people are very much more pre-occupied with religion and implicitly believe that their respective religions instruct them on the correct mode of living, somehow there is also very high levels of corruption and very little contribution to Scientific and Technological inventions, patents, etc. The reverse holds good in the case of the technologically advanced countries, imo; people there are less bothered about their religion (as exemplified by the two quotes given above) in their day-to-day lives and are less corrupt generally. (There may be corruption at the higher levels of Government but the common man has a very high chance of living without "bribing" some official or the other.)

I, therefore, earnestly feel that if we as a people, make conscious and concerted efforts to keep a healthy distance from religion and decide to live as honest human beings, our country may also get a chance to outshine the developed world.

 

[guruvayurappan]

namaskaram !
underline the word honesty..when we live as honest human being the practicing of religion will be additional motivating point.A true hindu ,christian or musilim will not hurt the feeling of others.they know all roads leads to HIS abode

 

[prasad1]

namaskaram !
underline the word honesty..when we live as honest human being the practicing of religion will be additional motivating point.A true hindu ,christian or musilim will not hurt the feeling of others.they know all roads leads to HIS abode

Yes, a little bit of humility helps in real world. Arrogance or narcissism is definite prescription for disappointment.

 

[ShivKC]

While belief in God may not be a bad thing by itself, it becomes an unsatisfactory trend when such belief tends to occupy the major portion of one's attention. I have heard a statement in the West which goes —

"All the christians come out on Sundays but on Monday they disappear!
On a weekday, it is nearly impossible to tell a Christian from an atheist."

shankar sir, if this is what the problem you find with religions, with the famous quote 'sunday christians', then, they have all the freedom and choice to exit and continue their pursuit of god, through Hinduism, islam,buddhism etc..freedom to choose the path towards god is respected globally, right

but you being an atheist or little milder agnostic, and as believer (believer again) of 'the fittest would survive, one lack the basic opportunity, to even encourage the community living, which is rendered through temples/churches/mosques/synagogues. believers live a community living, rendered through their places of worship, where as atheism make them to lead a jungle life and force them to predatory, to win over the other..


((On a weekday, it is nearly impossible to tell a Christian from an atheist.))

very much true. aren't you indicating all these christians are good only on sunday, and rest of the 6 days of week, they are as bad as an atheist!! i'm with you here, atleast religion has made a person to be good, atleast for one day in a week, be it friday/sunday/tuesday!!

 

[Nara]

Sorry dear Y, god and religion have definitively debunked our SET, we stand exposed, now, the only right thing for us to do is accept the "truth" and bow out ......

Enjoy by clicking here.

BTW, if there are some who don't take offense or get hurt with some truth, here is another short video, equally interesting and enjoyable. Click here.

 

[C RAVI]

The economical & technical backwardness of India, Africa and any country has nothing to do with belief of the people in Religon and GOD. It's all the "type" of people ruling the country with their personal motives more than hardly social motives.

Many brainy people are going out to America & Europe to excell their life and substantially contributing to scientific and technological advancements of the world. Without which all their knowledge and skills would go to dust in India with full political curroptions and politicians looting money and continuing to keep India still as "developing country".

If America is the most advanced and super power country in the word, that doesn't mean that people/rulers of America are Atheist and thus could acheive such advancements.

India is not stuck with the religious philosohpies. India is stuck with the mentality of her politicians. People in India are not pessimistic/laid back etc due to religion and faith in GOD. They are suffering due to the policies/strategies/agendas of corrupt politicians.

Whatever life style people of India adopt in India or abroad not gonna change the fate of India under the clutches of corrupt politicians. Citizens are excelling in personal level some how with hard work in India and in abroad.

Dreaming of Golden era in India with all sorts of super duper advancements purly by rejecting Religion and GOD is utter rediculous, IMO.

 

[Nara]

....This state of a healthy distance from religion and the consequent liberation from superstitions of many hues, has possibly enabled the Western society to emancipate much more than most oriental societies and become the "developed countries of the world" .

Sangom sir, religion and faith in god has been on the decline in Europe for a long while now. Not only the Church attendance, but a wholesale rejection of faith itself. Please take a look at this Wiki article that includes the findings of a 2005 poll. Some interesting highlights:

• Out of 33 countries listed in the article, belief in god breaks the 50% mark only in 14 countries.
  
• Out of 33 countries listed in the article, importance of religion in their lives breaks the 50% mark only in 9 countries.
• In France a full third of the population don't believe in any sort of supernatural force
• There are nine countries with 20% or more atheists, including Germany, the land of Luther
• On average, only 52% of across all state that they "believe in God", 27% believe there is some sort of spirit or life force while 18% do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God or life force.

What is impressive about these numbers is that this is for the entire population, from those with no more than high school education or less, to those with advanced degrees in science.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

namaskaram !
underline the word honesty..when we live as honest human being the practicing of religion will be additional motivating point.A true hindu ,christian or musilim will not hurt the feeling of others.they know all roads leads to HIS abode

namaskaram,

"honesty" means primarily, to be true to one's convictions. Some of the dictionary meanings of the word are —
"gave honest answers"; "honest reporting"
Without dissimulation; frank
Worthy of being depended on
Marked by truth

"not hurting the feeling of others" does not figure as one meaning of 'honest'. Anyway what you have written has not hurt my feelings about religion and so you can be happy that you are honest.

 

[Nara]

....when we live as honest human being the practicing of religion will be additional motivating point.A true hindu ,christian or musilim will not hurt the feeling of others.they know all roads leads to HIS abode

A "true" Hindu is hard to define, there are multiplicity of views, each insisting they are right, yes, I know this vipraha bahutha vadanti bit, but that is used carelessly to mean a lot of things not meant.

When it comes to "true" Christians, they certainly do not believe "all roads lead to HIS abode". They believe we get only one chance to choose, and if we don't choose Jesus as Christ, then our road will lead to eternal torment in hell.

Same is the case with "true" Muslims. Submission to their version of god is the ONLY road, all other roads lead to hell.

Cheers!

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

If you look at the history, Gujaratis are resilient and they have come out of
many calamities like earthquake, communal riots , etc.,

In spite of all the drawbacks, our economy is not as bad as other countries'
except that there is a big gap between the rich and the poor. We have
succcessfully come out of war with china and two wars against pakistan and
many cross-border terrorism. Tata rebuilt Hotel Taj in Bombay in record time

We could do all these because of our strong cultural foundation . We do not
hunt and kill the terrorists by intruding into other countries like US. We always
appeal for peace and friendship, whatever may be the provocations.

Yes, Mr.Ravi's point is worth taking note of. If only our politicians are morally
upright, we would have built a strong and prosperous India.

 

[prasad1]

It is waste of time, and irrelevant to anyone else as to how an individual lives his/her life as long as they also respect others way of life.
My philosophy is personal to myself, I have no interest in converting any one else nor I am trying to impose it on others. I expect the same from others.

Statistics are waste of time.

 

[ShivKC]

Sangom sir, religion and faith in god has been on the decline in Europe for a long while now. Not only the Church attendance, but a wholesale rejection of faith itself.

that's a disappointing reference, including the links you referred. i expected that you would post something with a broader view.

some one may abstain from visiting churches, another may not do sandyavadhanam daily, and yet another may not kneel down towards west.

but the question is... are they not believing in super natural power, called 'GOD HEAD'.

if i were to go by that, and if most of the americans dont attend church, and why in such a secular set up holding the worlds most powerful currency, still getting their bill printed as 'IN GOD WE TRUST'.

may i have some more convincing data and scholarly write up's to prove that the world is moving towards 'rejecting god'.. im really curious with an open mind, and as i said earlier, if im convinced, i can switch sides over the wink of an eye.

ps: dont forget, orangs and monkeys were all confirmed atheists, and over evolution, and on 21st century, humans have become more oriented in god... even if you say, 10% of homo sapiens are theists and rest are atheists, still its an attractive figure with tangential graph of growth!

 

[ShivKC]

A "true" Hindu is hard to define, there are multiplicity of views, each insisting they are right, yes, I know this vipraha bahutha vadanti bit, but that is used carelessly to mean a lot of things not meant.

you are right!..

but still, havent you found that they all unilaterally and commonly believe that, the one who does wrong will get punishment through law of karma, even if they escape the laws of the land?

i have earlier referred an incident about the shooting spree and the killer killing himself at the end.. you name a a religion which dont answer to this, dilemma?

and what was atheist answer to the deliverance of justice to such a person , with gun? his life ends there peacefully right!..

 

[prasad1]

you are right!..

but still, havent you found that they all unilaterally and commonly believe that, the one who does wrong will get punishment through law of karma, even if they escape the laws of the land?

i have earlier referred an incident about the shooting spree and the killer killing himself at the end.. you name a a religion which dont answer to this, dilemma?

and what was atheist answer to the deliverance of justice to such a person , with gun? his life ends there peacefully right!..

Shiv my friend what is the point in pounding against a brick wall, you are not going to hurt the wall but your fist may become bloody. LOL

I am not in the business of saving souls.

 

[Yamaka]

Hello ALL:

I want to reiterate what I have been writing so far -

1. Science, Engineering & Technology (SET) since at least the Industrial Revolution has enriched our lives.. this device of Broadband communication across several thousand miles instantaneously is possible because of SET.

When we get a chest pain, we immediately call 911 for medical help..

All is good and well.. whether Theists or Atheists, Believer or Non-Believer, Scientists or Non-Scientists SET is there to serve ALL of humanity.

Many of the Theists love this SET, and they have a professional living in SET.

Well and good, I welcome it.

2. However, some of the Theists who make a living in SET, hate SET and bad mouth about it everyday of their existence... for them I suggested that they may immediately quit living such a wretched double life...that's all. I gave them some suggestion as to how to serve their God better!

3. I answered whether the Barber God exists or not... I concluded giving data in India (about 800 million poor Indians, in spite of praying their Gods all their lives still languish in abject poverty) that their Gods just can't exist... If they do, then so much poverty will not be that pervasive.

Theists are dancing pathetically about that data and the argument. They never tried to prove that their God exists.

4. What's very interesting is, most troubled souls are the Theists - particularly the Neo-Theists who have moved away from the old Orthodoxy and partially merged with modernity with their Spirituality... they have a conflicted conscience: they just can't walk away from modernity, and are hesitant to go all the way to Atheism... they are caught half-way in between.

This discomfort is eating them alive... in spite of their constant "prayers, poojas and bhajans", the Truth is chasing them day and night...

Their God is non-existent to help them out...Alas..

More later...

 

[sarang]

Will stop when the atheist/agnostic/nihilist groups start portraying the virtues of their chosen belief instead of deriding, abusing and renouncing 'wish to destroy the asthika groups mind set'.

Ravi beautiful post#1504.
But I am afraid any form of pacification is treated as a weakness.
But we have to try to stop this constant battle, which is sapping exchange of information.

 

[sarang]

And atheists do not believe in minority rights and minority protection!

India is not a atheistic state; atheists cannot be blind to the vibrant, widespread, involved activities of hindus in temple building, pujas, worship and upanyasams.

ps: dont forget, orangs and monkeys were all confirmed atheists, and over evolution, and on 21st century, humans have become more oriented in god... even if you say, 10% of homo sapiens are theists and rest are atheists, still its an attractive figure with tangential graph of growth!