God Exists

[Yamaka]

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Yamaka, I read with interest what you have to say. You say that the 'force' that I was referring to is 'Nature', which is bound by its own laws, some of which have been studied and documented in our various branches of learning, but others still remaining unknown. You say that that 'force' cannot 'see' our folded hands or hear our 'pathetic' cries arising from our 'fears of the unknown', in the form of prayers, pujas, and bhajans (PPB). Why? Is it because 'Nature' is not endowed with our means of 'sensory perceptions' or our kind of 'intellect' to respond to our PPB? Are they the only means? If it is an 'insentient' force, as you think it is, what made you spend almost your lifetime (four decades -- ever since you became an independent thinker) studying it as a 'Naturalist' when you could very well have been satisfied as a 'neuro-scientist' with studying just how the 'neurons' in our body are carrying and transmitting all our 'fears' to produce suitable secretion of hormones and reactions to allay and counter the same?

According to our ancient sages, as recorded in the Upanishads', the concluding part of the 'Vedas', this 'Nature' ('Prakriti') itself, and the energy pervading it ('Purusha'), are the manifestation of 'Brahman', the 'Ultimate Reality', but then you have no respect for the 'Vedas', 'Upanishads', or the like, being a modern-day scientist, who does not think much of the ancients, or their wisdom, in the light of their 'limited knowledge' during those days!

And you say that the thesis, 'God' and the anti-thesis, 'Devil' are just our own 'mental fabrications', a 'fiction' that comes out of our own 'brain', the seat of our 'mind', but that you have nothing to do with such 'fabrications' as you are a 'neuro-scientist', a 'naturalist' following 'science, engineering and technology' (SET), that require 'rational', 'logical' 'thinking' and 'processing'. I have no problem with your being either a 'neuro-scientist' or a 'naturalist', but how is it that I detect a 'sneering contempt' in you for those 'lesser mortals' like us, who 'patronize' 'man-made' 'Gods and Devils' unlike you, who does not care at all for all that 'CRAP' 'floating in the realm of 'belief' and 'faith', especially when your own 'SET' has a number of 'hypotheses' and 'theories' that are 'man-made' and cannot be verified or proved in our lifetime, like the 'big bang' hypothesis or the 'steady state' one, in respect of the origin of the Universe, or the one relating to 'evolution', for the origin of life on this earth and its growth, for instance ?

Lastly, why do you think that a 'successful' or 'happy' life, surrounded by family and friends, is possible only for the 'SET' people like you and that it will 'elude' the grasp of the 'believers' in God, fostered by the 'Vedas', the 'Torah', the 'Bible', the 'Koran' or the like? As a 'rationalist' do you think that 'believers' in God' are all necessarily 'believers' in 'superstitions'? The vehemence that you show to justify your way of life, I should say, I have not found among the 'faithful' among us!

Let me conclude: "There is no need to believe that God exists" or, for that matter, "Fold you hands or kneel down and pray to God", if you do not feel like it, or think it right, because no one is 'compelling' you in this 'liberal' kind of society, but you need not 'laugh out loud (LOL)' at those who do for you are also a mere 'mortal' only, who cannot change his 'destiny', in the sense of your own limitations, during your brief life on this earth like any other! would recommend that you read the "Vairagya Satakam" by 'Bhartrahari'I

Dear MVS:

First I wish you and your Believers in the "Man-Made" Gods a very happy peaceful New Year. You all need it, for the chaos created by Religions and Gods is ravaging the world everyday! LOL.

1. Yes, we are all mortal people, whether we believe in the Super Natural God or not, because of the Nature of our DNA (the genetic material called the deoxyribo nucleic acid).

2. Yes, no one is compelling anybody "to fold our hands and kneel down and pray to (the non-existent) God... but you should know what the Man-made Gods have done to our Society, in particular Indian Society:

Please jog your good memory to 5000 BC - Before the Vedic and Puranic Gods were created by the Vedic People who came from the steppe lands of the Central Asia (now Turkanistan, Kazhakstan 45 N, 60 E). India was flourishing gloriously: this is the first place outside Africa that humans settled permanently to start a new civilization. The great perennial rivers of Indus, Ganges, Bhramaputra, Cauvery etc produced the lush fields of paddy, wheat, maize etc and the vast oceans gave all the fishes needed for our comsumption.. our forefathers lived in style and we created the Greatest Mehargargh Civilization, the oldest of all, much older than the Harrappan, Mayan and the Babylonian.

I posit our way of life was superior to anyone under the Sun. Alas...around 1500 BC, the Indus Valley Civilization fell...either due to the invading or migrating Vedic People of the steppe lands of Central Asia (see above) or due to some unknown natural disaster.

Instead, the Vedas came into our lives...and our way of life decidedly turned negative.. our forefathers started believing in Super-Natural Gods.. then the Puranas came during the Epic Period to bolster the worship of hundreds of Puranic Gods, all were made by men like the Great Vyasa & Co, Great Valmiki & Co...

Our economic life and civilization took the beating and we were taking a route of FALL from the Grace.. this inexorable decline continued thru 1700 AD... during all this period of decline, India was still sporting the MOST prosperous country comparing to the rest of the world: India's per capita GDP, Income, Wealth were much HIGHER than that of Europe or others, so much so all Tom, Dick and Harry invaded India to plunder her wealth.

How did this happen? Because of the Man-Made Religions and Gods, Indians were systematically divided by "the Divine Power of Gods that Man Created by the Rigid Caste Hierarchy"... this Super Structure made India VERY WEAK, I contend.

This division and weakness still pervades... because the Man-Made Gods still rule India with a Death grip...

Because of this Mind Set, Industrial Revolution DID not occur in India... and we set the course of reaching the Poor Nation status in the contemporary world:

Only about 7.5% of India of 1200 million people pass high school education leaving a good 1110 million w/o a high school pass education. Of this about 310 million people don't know how to read, write the mother tongue or do simple math of addition and subtraction!!

Are you aware of all this FACTS? If not, why not? Most rural India is very poor and 50% of urban living is in slums!!

These 1110 million people are living and suffering in abject poverty... most of these people are God Believers and Worshipers.. they Believe that their Gods will one day pull them out of the Abject Poverty....

Alas.. the Man-Made Gods are silent because they are non-existent... but these 1110 million Indians don't know this FACT.

That's the legacy of these Man-Made Religions, their Gods: All rooted in Superstition, Belief and Faith against which I rile against in the past 40 years!

What the Believers tell me is "Janma Poorva Karma" is the reason for India's Pathetic Life!!

I reject this argument.

We have to infuse and inculcate the Mind Set of Logical Rational Thinking.. and embrace Science Engineering & Technology to progress in this New World.

More later....

Peace be with you and all Believers...



ps. Dear MVS: Do you know Sanskrit well? Did you read the Original Texts yourself? If not, why not?

Why did nearly 95% of Brahmins quit learning, speaking and writing in Sanskrit daily about 50 years ago? Because, I believe, it is a very complex language not suitable for daily use!

 

[Yamaka]

Dear ALL:

When I jokingly write "I reached my Moksha from the Superstitions of Religion & Gods" what I say is Freedom from all those I mentioned.

I know this word Moksha kindles all sorts of emotions among the Believers... because it is a Sanskrit word, I think, as such it may mean hundred and eleven things to different people. Lol. That's why Sanskrit is not followed by very vast majority of Brahmins, and Hindus in the world, I suppose..

As human beings, ALL are a little bit egoistic..that's in our genes!

This could again mean the Enlightened Self Interest (my definition of EGO!!), not necessarily the malignant type like BJP wants to obstruct anything and everything that the ruling UPA does because of their EGO to capture the Throne in the next Election, by hook or crook!

Man need not surrender to any Super Natural Entity of any Design.

He needs to just be Logical and Rational.

That's all.

More later..

 

[Yamaka]

Mr MVS has done a real justification in explaining his stand to Mr Yamaka's quotes.
Application of thought process and perception differs always.

To my knowledge, I have heard the word fabrication in Engineering Industries generally
used quite often. It mainly refers to building metal structures by cutting, bending and
assembling etc. But we call it and debate here as bodily fabrication, verbal fabrication and mental
fabrication.

Imagination is one thing, a reality, it becomes True. When we call it, for some people,
it may be mental fabrication. We cannot achieve anything without putting effort by the
explained and dedicated methods. Sometimes, we have to conquer the ignorance in us, mainly,
we may not know certain things as such, or we would not have come across an event educating
us to know or illuminate us.

No doubt, the modern world is dynamic and at the same it is destructive too. There are many
scientific and technological developments, like telemedicine, etc which may cure diseases either
at the very first instance or it may take little time diagonise its root and cause. We say cancer
is curable and not in all cases.

In olden days, elder people used to say what to eat and what not to eat. But one should not
be troubled or worried with the discrimination of that which is to be taken or eaten and those
which are not be taken or eaten while analyzing it is good for health or not. In the process
it culminates into purity, impurity etc. at times which does not describe reality and it tantamounts
to essentially a mental fabrication unless one has cognizance of the fact in it. Why, sometimes,
in our house, we call a servant to cut down the trees with axis, which are unwanted. Similarly
God has given consciousness to differentiate the subject and object. Good reasoning is but
a pure wisdom. Pure wisdom is the insight that informs us and gives us the directives.

Words, at times, can at best a good vehicle to the meaning that lies beyond; as an index finger
points to an object beyond itself or as a Thoni (small boat), is used to cross a river when there is
a heavy flood, that carries a mean across the river is just discarded once the person reaches the
other shore. That is why, in olden days, elders used to say, some used to chant Narayana
Narayana before crossing the flooded river for safety and once they cross they just say Koorayana.

We are installing an Idol in a Temple with some trust and confidence that the Idol, in the Swaroopam
of Lord Siva, Lord Krishna, Lord Durga, in any form it may be, assuming that will protect us always
give us a prosperous trouble free life, or save us in times of crisis. Here some people term it
as a Mental Fabrication. A person says I get so depressed about life, work is my salvation i.e.
helps me to forget my worries. Like this, it can be concluded that a believing heart is a surrenderd
heart to the supreme power irrespective of the form. Why people run to temple during Sani Peyarchi
period etc (even those who do not believe in God), similarly people having fear of loss in business;
people having unexpected ailment - saving of a person's soul from sin and its consequences,
in other words they want to avoid loss or disaster. Do you call all of them mental fabricators?
It is not a matter of doing anything more than thinking so as to attain salvation. Is it possible to
conclude that every one who has developed faith and trust in God is a mental fabricator and
do not have a conscious or they just make discriminating judgments in their way of life.

So long us one do not fall sick, he or she may not worry about the supreme power and can proudly
say that scientific and technological developments will protect them, but then, even the Doctors,
at times, say it is beyond their reach to save the soul. Narayana.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

Hello Bala:

Your last para caught my attention.

Here is what you just don't understand: Nature and its awesome power.

Perhaps, unknowingly you refer to Nature as the Supreme Power. Nature = God is fine with me.

Yes, Scientists understand a very small part of this Nature. "Kattrathu Kai Mannalavu... Kallathathu Olhalavu".

But we have a PROCESS in place to very methodically understand ALL of Nature one day, may be billion years from now!

What I rile against is this FEAR of the Unknown.. and automatically submitting to the Superstition of all the man-made Religions and Gods!

And, I rile against spending enormous time, energy and resources in Prayers, Poojas and Bhajans, as though all this is "heard and seen" by the Power or the Force of Nature!

I guess the MIND SET is the God is a SUPER HUMAN BEING (according to Puranas and the Abrahamic Faiths) who can "see and hear" what the hapless human beings are doing as PPB!

That's utterly bitterly a FALSE ASSUMPTION, I contend.

More later...

 

[ashwin_ash]

Dear MVS:

First I wish you and your Believers in the "Man-Made" Gods a very happy peaceful New Year. You all need it, for the chaos created by Religions and Gods is ravaging the world everyday! LOL.

1. Yes, we are all mortal people, whether we believe in the Super Natural God or not, because of the Nature of our DNA (the genetic material called the deoxyribo nucleic acid).

2. Yes, no one is compelling anybody "to fold our hands and kneel down and pray to (the non-existent) God... but you should know what the Man-made Gods have done to our Society, in particular Indian Society:

Please jog your good memory to 5000 BC - Before the Vedic and Puranic Gods were created by the Vedic People who came from the steppe lands of the Central Asia (now Turkanistan, Kazhakstan 45 N, 60 E). India was flourishing gloriously: this is the first place outside Africa that humans settled permanently to start a new civilization. The great perennial rivers of Indus, Ganges, Bhramaputra, Cauvery etc produced the lush fields of paddy, wheat, maize etc and the vast oceans gave all the fishes needed for our comsumption.. our forefathers lived in style and we created the Greatest Mehargargh Civilization, the oldest of all, much older than the Harrappan, Mayan and the Babylonian.

I posit our way of life was superior to anyone under the Sun. Alas...around 1500 BC, the Indus Valley Civilization fell...either due to the invading or migrating Vedic People of the steppe lands of Central Asia (see above) or due to some unknown natural disaster.

Instead, the Vedas came into our lives...and our way of life decidedly turned negative.. our forefathers started believing in Super-Natural Gods.. then the Puranas came during the Epic Period to bolster the worship of hundreds of Puranic Gods, all were made by men like the Great Vyasa & Co, Great Valmiki & Co...

Our economic life and civilization took the beating and we were taking a route of FALL from the Grace.. this inexorable decline continued thru 1700 AD... during all this period of decline, India was still sporting the MOST prosperous country comparing to the rest of the world: India's per capita GDP, Income, Wealth were much HIGHER than that of Europe or others, so much so all Tom, Dick and Harry invaded India to plunder her wealth.

How did this happen? Because of the Man-Made Religions and Gods, Indians were systematically divided by "the Divine Power of Gods that Man Created by the Rigid Caste Hierarchy"... this Super Structure made India VERY WEAK, I contend.

This division and weakness still pervades... because the Man-Made Gods still rule India with a Death grip...

Because of this Mind Set, Industrial Revolution DID not occur in India... and we set the course of reaching the Poor Nation status in the contemporary world:

Only about 7.5% of India of 1200 million people pass high school education leaving a good 1110 million w/o a high school pass education. Of this about 310 million people don't know how to read, write the mother tongue or do simple math of addition and subtraction!!

Are you aware of all this FACTS? If not, why not? Most rural India is very poor and 50% of urban living is in slums!!

These 1110 million people are living and suffering in abject poverty... most of these people are God Believers and Worshipers.. they Believe that their Gods will one day pull them out of the Abject Poverty....

Alas.. the Man-Made Gods are silent because they are non-existent... but these 1110 million Indians don't know this FACT.

That's the legacy of these Man-Made Religions, their Gods: All rooted in Superstition, Belief and Faith against which I rile against in the past 40 years!

What the Believers tell me is "Janma Poorva Karma" is the reason for India's Pathetic Life!!

I reject this argument.

We have to infuse and inculcate the Mind Set of Logical Rational Thinking.. and embrace Science Engineering & Technology to progress in this New World.

More later....

Peace be with you and all Believers...



ps. Dear MVS: Do you know Sanskrit well? Did you read the Original Texts yourself? If not, why not?

Why did nearly 95% of Brahmins quit learning, speaking and writing in Sanskrit daily about 50 years ago? Because, I believe, it is a very complex language not suitable for daily use!

Like I always maintain, the western countries have only lukewarm "faith in God". Church attendance in the Nordic countries and UK stands at less than 10%. Even in Italy, church attendance is pathetic. Three generations of Russians grew up and flourished, not knowing the concept of religion under communism. The Chinese have been atheists since millenia, a tiny percentage of them indulge in ancestor worship, but they have no formal "God". All these countries are flourishing, people are leading long and hunger-free happy lives. Oh, and in the USA too, the past two generations have shown a steep decline in religious pursuits.

I am not saying this to denigrate any religion, but India as whole is a collective failure because of God, religion, and caste. When 95% live on less than $1.50 a day, I'm not too sure about future prospects. There is no chance of even military rule in India due to these very same caste and religious shackles. Even our democrazy (demons gone crazy) is based on narrow vote bank politics, rather than any interest in modernizing the country.

<edited and removed> Once again, there is no need to call out an individual or individuals to prove a point. Be it as a funny remark or not, kindly refrain from such actions henceforth.. I just wanted to prove the point that Brahmins are egotistic to the highest extent possible (Iyengars hide their faces from Shaivite temples with umbrellas), and are least interested in helping their own ilk.

 

[Yamaka]

Hello Ashwin: Ref: Post 1779.

As I wrote elsewhere,

Number of Non-Worshipers in the world (includes Athiests, Agnostics and most People of Second World) = About 2.5 billions
Number of Christians of all shades and forms = About 2 billions (Of this, those living in the First World are "lukewarm" type).
Number of Muslims of all shades and forms = About 1.5 billions
Number of Hindus of all shades and forms = About 1.0 billions (Of this about 100 millions are urban elites with their own "liberal Hinduism", they go to Temple once a month or a few times a year... Wannabe Hindus of convenience! Lol).

Other people of Judaism, Buddhism and Jainism etc are relatively a few in numbers - is about 50-100 millions total.

Most of the Worshipers can't be grouped as "Peaceful Brothers and Sisters" because their ideology is totally opposite and are really religious ENEMIES... ask the fundamentalist Islamist and the RSS/VHP people!

As such, the largest group of people are the Non-Worshipers and Non-Believers in the world now... and the number is steadily increasing everyday!

Watch out, Believers! LOL.

 

[ashwin_ash]

Hello Ashwin: Ref: Post 1779.

As I wrote elsewhere,

Number of Non-Worshipers in the world (includes Athiests, Agnostics and most People of Second World) = About 2.5 billions
Number of Christians of all shades and forms = About 2 billions (Of this, those living in the First World are "lukewarm" type).
Number of Muslims of all shades and forms = About 1.5 billions
Number of Hindus of all shades and forms = About 1.0 billions (Of this about 100 millions are urban elites with their own "liberal Hinduism", they go to Temple once a month or a few times a year... Wannabe Hindus of convenience! Lol).

Other people of Judaism, Buddhism and Jainism etc are relatively a few in numbers - is about 50-100 millions total.

Most of the Worshipers can't be grouped as "Peaceful Brothers and Sisters" because their ideology is totally opposite and are really religious ENEMIES... ask the fundamentalist Islamist and the RSS/VHP people!

As such, the largest group of people are the Non-Worshipers and Non-Believers in the world now... and the number is steadily increasing everyday!

Watch out, Believers! LOL.

Yamaka, even non-believers have their own deity. There's an entity called Church of Satan which encourages you to live in the "here and now". It is far from evil LOL. And don't dare classify the ex-communists as "second-world", most of them are almost reaching first world living standards now!!

As for believers, highest alcohol consumers live in saudi and iran, they home-brew their own potent stuff lol. Brahmins are pretentious b@$!!@$^ , other Hindus are mired in their own caste issues, and only care about reservation like beggars..

 

[sangom]

Like I always maintain, the western countries have only lukewarm "faith in God". Church attendance in the Nordic countries and UK stands at less than 10%. Even in Italy, church attendance is pathetic. Three generations of Russians grew up and flourished, not knowing the concept of religion under communism. The Chinese have been atheists since millenia, a tiny percentage of them indulge in ancestor worship, but they have no formal "God". All these countries are flourishing, people are leading long and hunger-free happy lives. Oh, and in the USA too, the past two generations have shown a steep decline in religious pursuits.

I am not saying this to denigrate any religion, but India as whole is a collective failure because of God, religion, and caste. When 95% live on less than $1.50 a day, I'm not too sure about future prospects. There is no chance of even military rule in India due to these very same caste and religious shackles. Even our democrazy (demons gone crazy) is based on narrow vote bank politics, rather than any interest in modernizing the country.

As an aside, when I classified Iyengars as Vadakalai, Thenkalai, and "Yechakalai" the other day, a whole group rose in rebellion against me LOL. I just wanted to prove the point that Brahmins are egotistic to the highest extent possible (Iyengars hide their faces from Shaivite temples with umbrellas), and are least interested in helping their own ilk.

Shri ashwin,

God is an imaginary construct made by man right from his days of primitive existence. It came in handy for him in those days - before fire could be produced and the wheel was invented probably - to "dump" all the unknown and inexplicable phenomena he observed around him as also phenomena beyond his capacity - such as typhoons, thundershowers, tsunami, floods, famine, avalanches and so on - just as the attic is used by people now (or, better still, the recycle bin of the windows OS).

Because of its very nature, this 'god' became something at which Man started looking with awe and fear. One class of people who were probably more shrewd than the average, exploited this 'fear of god' in Man and launched 'religions' which, invariably, placed the priesthood as agents, intermediaries, interpreters, etc., between Man and his own mental creation, 'god'. Eventually, the priests wielded their powers so well, so effectively and in such organized manner, that in the name of god, Man was enslaved by he priests and their overlords, the kings and rulers.

In all this drama, god, has been completely innocent and most probably ignorant too. I always find this very similar to small children who start telling 'ghost stories' among themselves, particularly at night, and finally, all of them get so very scared that it becomes well-nigh impossible to calm them down and make them sleep! Man has similarly been overpowered by his own imagined god and is now unable to live peacefully. The more acute the pre-occupation of any society with religion and god, the worse will be its progress in this world, economically and temporally. This is because religion is an opiate.

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Iyers and Iyengars are two classified Brahmins in Tamil Origin. While the first one follow
the tenets laid down by Adhi Shankara (Advaitha philosophy), the latter follow the tenets
as governed by Sri Ramanajum, who laid down the philosophy of Visishtadvaita. This is the
only main difference.

As Iyengars have two groups in it viz. Vadakalai and Thenkali, Iyers have also sub groups.
If we trace the history, it is found that Vadakalai and Iyers are Indo Aryan descendants,
while Thenkalai is led by Manavala Mamuni. They practice Divyaprabhandam. Further, it
is also learnt that these traditions have started only 1000 years or so ago and Nathamuni
appears to have introduced this tradition. While Iyengars lived mainly in Chola Kingdom area
in Tamil Nadu, Iyers are spread over in Tamil Nadu (Majority in Chola region). Both of them
are known by Gotra, Vedas, etc that they follow. While Iyers celebrate all festivals like Vaikunda
Ekadasi, etc of Brahmins, Iyengars do not celebrate like Mahasivarathri. While the first one
follow mainly the concepts of Lord Shiva, Iyengars give supremacy only to Lord Vishnu.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

A question was raised as to why India is suffering. If we are believing in God, why is the present status?

Opiate -- myth. How would one expect the Hinduism, the world's oldest and most complex religion
in the eyes of a few could be opined as Opiate.

There is a Global Crisis. There is hardly any Nation which is free form economic collapse. In Eurozone
Nations are facing acute threat of financial crisis, which can be seen over the media of late. UK is
already suffering a no-growth period and the national debt on the other hand is mounting in an
astonishing way. As everyone know US is already burdened with the immense natural debt . Therefore
from the overall economical angle, if one peruses, India is position is not that bad. It is mainly because
of current policies and governance of certain procedures have lead to the present position. It is mainly
because people who are suffering for the basic needs mainly due to non-employment. Therefore,
we can not conclude that if we have belief and faith in God we are sufferers unlike other countries.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[ashwin_ash]

<edited and removed> Please refrain from personal attacks - whether it is "pun intended" or not.
Nobody has seen God yet, and nobody will. We can have faith, but in rational doses.

 

[happyhindu]

AshwinAsh,

Your post # 1785 is a mean personal attack on Mrs.VR. I have reported it as offensive. Hope you have the good sense to delete it yourself and apologise to Mrs.VR.

 

[ashwin_ash]

AshwinAsh,

Your post # 1785 is a mean personal attack on Mrs.VR. I have reported it as offensive. Hope you have the good sense to delete it yourself and apologise to Mrs.VR.

Sri AshwinAsh, please do not make statements like these - they are not in good taste. I have removed this. - KRS

 

[Yamaka]

A question was raised as to why India is suffering. If we are believing in God, why is the present status?

Opiate -- myth. How would one expect the Hinduism, the world's oldest and most complex religion
in the eyes of a few could be opined as Opiate.

There is a Global Crisis. There is hardly any Nation which is free form economic collapse. In Eurozone
Nations are facing acute threat of financial crisis, which can be seen over the media of late. UK is
already suffering a no-growth period and the national debt on the other hand is mounting in an
astonishing way. As everyone know US is already burdened with the immense natural debt . Therefore
from the overall economical angle, if one peruses, India is position is not that bad. It is mainly because
of current policies and governance of certain procedures have lead to the present position. It is mainly
because people who are suffering for the basic needs mainly due to non-employment. Therefore,
we can not conclude that if we have belief and faith in God we are sufferers unlike other countries.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

"Why Is India Very Poor, today, comparing to the Pre-Vedic Period of Harrappan Civilization circa 1500 BC?

This is the burning and the most relevant question, not the transient setback in world economic turmoil since 2008.

Let's look at the numbers:

India's nominal GDP is about $2 trillions a year, produced by a total population of 1.2 billion people.

This amounts to a mere $1666 per person per year which is a GDP of $4.56 per person per day. About 80% this can be taken as income = $3.65 per person per day.

This is the average in nominal terms. On PPP, this figure could go up to $5 person per day. Is this a good income? Noooo.

The real reason for such very poor income is, vast majority of India's people are not educated, are marooned in God Thinking and Believing in Janma Poorva Karma, thus not improving their own SKILLS.

Only about 90 million Indians (7.5%) have high school education which leaves 1110 million people with not even a high school pass! Of this nearly 310 millions have no education, can't read and write in their mother tongue.

All this happened soon after Religions and Gods came to India from the Vedic People, as per the known history.

Believing in God and waiting for HIS divinity to intervene in improving ones SKILLS is the root cause of misery in India.

That needs to be addressed seriously. Otherwise, the Abject Poverty will be the NORM, and prosperity will be an EXCEPTION in India.

This the Urban Elites refuse to understand!

Very sad.

ps. As a comparison, look at the Godless Communists across the NE border: Their GDP is 3 times higher on per capita basis, and they are growing faster than India because they can make decisions much faster to alleviate poverty.

Only about 300 million Chinese are making less than $2 a day, while 1100 Indians are making less than that amount!. Can't you see how the Belief in God has destroyed India?

 

[Yamaka]

Hmm.. Deleted - KRS..

Hi Ashwin:

Just drop the matter and move on... why do you want to provoke people?

Your comment on HH is totally uncalled for.

Take care.

 

[Nara]

Your comment on HH is totally uncalled for.

ashwin_ash seems to be a rebel without a cause. Hope moderators are keeping a close watch. Being opinionated is one thing, but to be in-your-face opinionated is not good for the forum.

Cheers!

 

[ashwin_ash]

Hi Ashwin:

Just drop the matter and move on... why do you want to provoke people?

Your comment on HH is totally uncalled for.

Take care.

I agree, but I can't stand the self-aggrandizing know it alls who think they are spiritual gurus. We need a healthy dose of rational spirituality. Or we need a member who has seen god to come forward and testify.

 

[sangom]

ashwin_ash seems to be a rebel without a cause. Hope moderators are keeping a close watch. Being opinionated is one thing, but to be in-your-face opinionated is not good for the forum.

Cheers!

Dear Nara,

I feel Shri ashwin is a young person who has found, may be to his dismay, that the god concept is eminently discardable. In his youthful enthusiasm he feels provoked, possibly, by indirectly hitting remarks as in this post.

So, discouraging ashwin is tantamount to encouraging the god-belief-syndrome, I feel.

 

[sangom]

I agree, but I can't stand the self-aggrandizing know it alls who think they are spiritual gurus. We need a healthy dose of rational spirituality. Or we need a member who has seen god to come forward and testify.

Shri ashwin,

I agree with your sentiment. But you will agree that the majority of people, including tabras of course, are really staunch believers in god or at least find immense satisfaction pretending to be. Both, the staunch believers and pretenders, cannot either prove the existence of god or disprove its non-existence by logical or rational evidence/arguments, or scientifically verifiable experiments. They have only their 'faith' in god to go on and are not bold enough to dethrone that god from their mind. If things go adversely for them, they do not want to analyze where and how they went wrong and, if possible, to own up their lapse and correct their course and move on; instead, they will put the blame on god, karma etc. This affords them a very nice way to escape self-scrutiny and assessment which at times may force their conscience to conclude that, contrary to the show of humble god-believers which they put on for others, in reality they are very opposite - egotistic, greedy, cruel, cunning etc.

I suggest that you as a young person (probably) understand these things and continue to participate in the discussions here. That will be educative and useful, I feel.

For example, I am aware that your doubt as to why Parasurama spared the life of king Janaka of Mithila has not been answered satisfactorily in this forum. I myself don't have any convincing answer except that Parashuram appears to be an essentially south-based character and whosoever fabricated the story/legends of Parasurama, omitted the kingdoms up north. There is also a version saying Parashuram was against the Haihayas only and not against all kshatriyas.

AFAI am concerned, these legends are all figments of imagination and logic may not always be expected in these accounts.

So, I would request you to increase your tolerance towards self-aggrandizing people (may be I also come out as one) and to continue to give your pov here which will benefit all of us.

 

[ozone]

Dear Nara,

I feel Shri ashwin is a young person who has found, may be to his dismay, that the god concept is eminently discardable. In his youthful enthusiasm he feels provoked, possibly, by indirectly hitting remarks as in this post.

So, discouraging ashwin is tantamount to encouraging the god-belief-syndrome, I feel.

Possible. But why should his personal experience make him so red faced at others?

 

[ashwin_ash]

Shri ashwin,

I agree with your sentiment. But you will agree that the majority of people, including tabras of course, are really staunch believers in god or at least find immense satisfaction pretending to be. Both, the staunch believers and pretenders, cannot either prove the existence of god or disprove its non-existence by logical or rational evidence/arguments, or scientifically verifiable experiments. They have only their 'faith' in god to go on and are not bold enough to dethrone that god from their mind. If things go adversely for them, they do not want to analyze where and how they went wrong and, if possible, to own up their lapse and correct their course and move on; instead, they will put the blame on god, karma etc. This affords them a very nice way to escape self-scrutiny and assessment which at times may force their conscience to conclude that, contrary to the show of humble god-believers which they put on for others, in reality they are very opposite - egotistic, greedy, cruel, cunning etc.

I suggest that you as a young person (probably) understand these things and continue to participate in the discussions here. That will be educative and useful, I feel.

For example, I am aware that your doubt as to why Parasurama spared the life of king Janaka of Mithila has not been answered satisfactorily in this forum. I myself don't have any convincing answer except that Parashuram appears to be an essentially south-based character and whosoever fabricated the story/legends of Parasurama, omitted the kingdoms up north. There is also a version saying Parashuram was against the Haihayas only and not against all kshatriyas.

AFAI am concerned, these legends are all figments of imagination and logic may not always be expected in these accounts.

So, I would request you to increase your tolerance towards self-aggrandizing people (may be I also come out as one) and to continue to give your pov here which will benefit all of us.

I'm not really young, I'm 32, and don't celebrate birthdays (each birthday takes you a step closer to the grave, as my father used to say). My father's passing changed my entire world view. One minute, he was some kind of entity. After 5 mins, they handed me a box full of ashes. If life (or death) can be encapsulated in just 5 mins, why do we need God really? Why do people spend hours in their "pooja room" (ridiculous concept) everyday? Has anyone seen God inside their "Pooja Rooms"?

Crying in front of statues of gods, going into trances, saying prayers regularly etc, what has it helped us achieve? The majority of Indian Hindus sacrifice animals for their favorite "gods". If god is really kind and merciful and grants boons, would he demand the murder of an innocent animal to appease him (or her)? Why does god have to grant someone money? Why can't a person earn money by dint of hard work?

Does god really heal the sick? Or is it the job of doctors? Why did atheist Russia, and now staunchly atheist China, and the mostly atheist west have very high quality of lives and life expectancies? Why does "Godly" India lag behind in all spheres? People might say I can make a difference, but in a country like India where blind belief and petty caste and religious quarrels rule the roost, neither me, nor you, can do anything.

 

[happyhindu]

So, discouraging ashwin is tantamount to encouraging the god-belief-syndrome, I feel.

Good one Sir. A is not equal to B so A is tantamount to C.

Also, reg your post 1793, i join you in requesting Aswin to increase his tolerance towards self-aggrandizing people. However, i request him to increase his tolerance towards self-aggrandizing people of all kinds, in all camps, not just in the direction of atheists alone.

 

[sangom]

Good one Sir. A is not equal to B so A is tantamount to C.

Also, reg your post 1793, i join you in requesting Aswin to increase his tolerance towards self-aggrandizing people. However, i request him to increase his tolerance towards self-aggrandizing people of all kinds, in all camps, not just in the direction of atheists alone.

Happy,

Is there an implication that I or nara come out as self-aggrandizing? If so I request you to point out whenever our posts do reveal such a tendency.

Thank you,

 

[sangom]

I'm not really young, I'm 32, and don't celebrate birthdays (each birthday takes you a step closer to the grave, as my father used to say). My father's passing changed my entire world view. One minute, he was some kind of entity. After 5 mins, they handed me a box full of ashes. If life (or death) can be encapsulated in just 5 mins, why do we need God really? Why do people spend hours in their "pooja room" (ridiculous concept) everyday? Has anyone seen God inside their "Pooja Rooms"?

Dear Shri ashwin,

Losing one's father is always a traumatic experience, especially if one's father had been affectionate to his children. But none of us can usually avoid this; the alternative will be one which is contrary to normal and much more of an emotional trauma shattering the lives of the parents. So, I think you should compose yourself since your father lived to see you grow up into an adult and satisfactorily established in life and only then left the scene. (fyi, my father, who was not the type to show affection openly, and was like the proverbial drop of water on lotus leaf, expired at the age of 92, a very sudden and peaceful death; I was 58 then. One moment he was eating his food at night, the next moment he was no more, that was it.

Getting the ashes from the electric crematorium and immersing it in some proper river, etc., is only a duty we, as sons, do so that our parents' physical body is not trashed and misused. It is thus a service we do for their physical body, just as (if) we washed them, powdered their body, applied bed pan, cleaned them after answering calls of nature, etc., ourselves, if they were bedridden. Nowadays such duties are rarely, if ever, done by the children and at the very first moment a nurse is called. That is a different social issue, not relevant here, imo.

God, as I have been saying is in the imagination of human mind. This imagined god cannot be more powerful in reality than the man who imagines Him. May be it is like Superman, Chhota Bheem or whatever. So, please disabuse your mind about God coming to bring anyone back to life from death and all.

Since god is incapable of such miracles you feel that people who pray to god in their puja rooms and so on, are doing some ridiculous things. Now you know many bachelors keep some nude/seminude photos (preferably blown up life size) affixed to the walls of their rooms and emote over it; do we take that those models/actresses will make the yearnings/dreams of these youngsters to come true? god's pictures/images/idols in puja rooms/walls are nothing more than these. One is a passing fancy, the other is addictive, that is all the difference.

Crying in front of statues of gods, going into trances, saying prayers regularly etc, what has it helped us achieve? The majority of Indian Hindus sacrifice animals for their favorite "gods". If god is really kind and merciful and grants boons, would he demand the murder of an innocent animal to appease him (or her)? Why does god have to grant someone money? Why can't a person earn money by dint of hard work?

Does god really heal the sick? Or is it the job of doctors? Why did atheist Russia, and now staunchly atheist China, and the mostly atheist west have very high quality of lives and life expectancies? Why does "Godly" India lag behind in all spheres? People might say I can make a difference, but in a country like India where blind belief and petty caste and religious quarrels rule the roost, neither me, nor you, can do anything.

Because of my age (71) and longer experience of how our people's mind works, I will say that what is needed in India is a "weaning"; gradually deprive god inputs into the minds of people and substitute with an honest work culture and sensitivity to civic responsibilities and obedience to law. Unfortunately, however, what I find is people are becoming more and more engrossed with god, bhakti, temples and those kinds of things. There is no way for isolated individuals like you and me to counter this trend of the vast majority. So, let us humbly accept our position and try what best we can do within our limited ability; I feel I can only state again and again, that god is, in all likelihood, a figment of human imagination only, since we have no proof of his existence, and stop with that.

 

[suraju06]

Sangom's post #1798:

I will say that what is needed in India is a "weaning"; gradually deprive god inputs into the minds of people and substitute with an honest work culture and sensitivity to civic responsibilities and obedience to law. Unfortunately, however, what I find is people are becoming more and more engrossed with god, bhakti, temples and those kinds of things. There is no way for isolated individuals like you and me to counter this trend of the vast majority. So, let us humbly accept our position and try what best we can do within our limited ability; I feel I can only state again and again, that god is, in all likelihood, a figment of human imagination only, since we have no proof of his existence, and stop with that.

Is there not a presumption that the God inputs and honest work culture/sensitivity to civic responsibilities can not coexist in one place. On what basis is this assumption made? People when they get more and more engrossed with God, bhakthi and temples can also have a honest work culture and be sensitive to their civic responsibilities. Many of them are also good law abiding citizens. For some of us God may be just a figment of imagination and for others He may be the omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent creator. But to say that the believers are lacking a sense of civic responsibility or honest work culture is a hyperbole.

 

[ashwin_ash]

Dear Shri ashwin,

Losing one's father is always a traumatic experience, especially if one's father had been affectionate to his children. But none of us can usually avoid this; the alternative will be one which is contrary to normal and much more of an emotional trauma shattering the lives of the parents. So, I think you should compose yourself since your father lived to see you grow up into an adult and satisfactorily established in life and only then left the scene. (fyi, my father, who was not the type to show affection openly, and was like the proverbial drop of water on lotus leaf, expired at the age of 92, a very sudden and peaceful death; I was 58 then. One moment he was eating his food at night, the next moment he was no more, that was it.

Getting the ashes from the electric crematorium and immersing it in some proper river, etc., is only a duty we, as sons, do so that our parents' physical body is not trashed and misused. It is thus a service we do for their physical body, just as (if) we washed them, powdered their body, applied bed pan, cleaned them after answering calls of nature, etc., ourselves, if they were bedridden. Nowadays such duties are rarely, if ever, done by the children and at the very first moment a nurse is called. That is a different social issue, not relevant here, imo.

God, as I have been saying is in the imagination of human mind. This imagined god cannot be more powerful in reality than the man who imagines Him. May be it is like Superman, Chhota Bheem or whatever. So, please disabuse your mind about God coming to bring anyone back to life from death and all.

Since god is incapable of such miracles you feel that people who pray to god in their puja rooms and so on, are doing some ridiculous things. Now you know many bachelors keep some nude/seminude photos (preferably blown up life size) affixed to the walls of their rooms and emote over it; do we take that those models/actresses will make the yearnings/dreams of these youngsters to come true? god's pictures/images/idols in puja rooms/walls are nothing more than these. One is a passing fancy, the other is addictive, that is all the difference.



Because of my age (71) and longer experience of how our people's mind works, I will say that what is needed in India is a "weaning"; gradually deprive god inputs into the minds of people and substitute with an honest work culture and sensitivity to civic responsibilities and obedience to law. Unfortunately, however, what I find is people are becoming more and more engrossed with god, bhakti, temples and those kinds of things. There is no way for isolated individuals like you and me to counter this trend of the vast majority. So, let us humbly accept our position and try what best we can do within our limited ability; I feel I can only state again and again, that god is, in all likelihood, a figment of human imagination only, since we have no proof of his existence, and stop with that.

Sir, I had no idea you are well into your 70s. Please accept my apologies if at all I said anything irreverent to you in any earlier post.

Religion is the opium of the masses- Karl Marx. God, or whatever entity that people believe in, cannot bring anyone back to life. Even those who claim to have been 'healed' of diseases miraculously, their healing has nothing to do with any divine power. The mind is an all powerful entity, instances of telekinesis and stopping of the Big Ben have been achieved through intense concentration, and not some divine intervention (maybe telekinesis is also mass hypnosis?).

I find it revolting when I see people with hands full of rings of all shapes and sizes. Religious texts are interesting, in that most texts contain fictitious fairy tale accounts of miracles, which never happen in the present age (people have an explanation for that too- miracles don't happen in 'Kali Yuga').

My cousin's relative is a well respected doctor in Chennai and an ardent puttaparthi fan. She's written books where she gives accounts of "Sai Baba" flying through the air like some superman and pulling planes out of air pockets and so on. And that man couldn't fly away when he was attacked some years ago. It is also shocking to see so many religious channels mushrooming by the day, I hope a day comes when rational thinking prevails, and man realizes religion is mere opium.