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God Exists
- Thread starter Brahin
- Start date
- Status
Let us not compare the fallen human conditions like beggars. Devotees who have
faith can feel the visions of God or blessings of God which protects us. As we
prepare for a Yoga, we have to prepare our mental frame with complete faith on HIM.
Our eyes are not just like that created to see all the spiritual things at one stroke.
We talk of Satan/Devil i.e. a wicked or mischievous person. As everyone reads
Hindu Scriptures, people would have read Devil stories too. Are they equally acceptable
or unacceptable. When some unpleasant situation arises, people immediately rush to
God or astrologer to get cured, why then we run to them. Why not we keep silent without
taking any action. If some people do some harsh things, people immediately utter
he behaves like a devil or does like a devil. If someone drives a Car alone in the midnight
and if the car gets crashed against the tree or meets with an accident, when the local
start commenting, it may be a devil's play, immediately people start believing it. Why?
Can any one deny if there is a truth and stand against it. If we are happy and enjoy
our life and get promotions in the office without any hurdles, immediately we say it is all
because God's blessings. Why we utter that statement? If our children studies well and
scores good mark and comes First Rank in the School, we just not stop stating that he
has studied well, but we add he has God's and Teacher's Blessings. God may be invisible
in his Nature, but don't we not feel or believe his supreme power in each and every
activity that we pursue. Without faith and devotion, one cannot please God just like
that. But God knows our desires and hears our problems and extends help or relieves our
miseries through someone in the form of God's representative. With our human limitations,
unless one has complete involvement in the spiritual activities, unconditional bakthi or
devotion, it takes time to get to know the feelings about the presence of God. If one
meditates for a few hours daily, without any interference from the environment, having
no wavering in the mind towards any desire or ambition, physical or emotional sensations
to the material benefits, as the days progress one can certainly find a change in the
mind about the spiritual factors that may emerge from our inner mind.
Sometimes, we may travel in a car alone in the midnight and if by any chance, if the car
crashes towards a tree or meets with an accident in a place, people gathering around
at times whisper stating that a devil exists there and that has led to the accident.
Do we believe or fear? Immediately, we rush to an astrologer or to a temple to get
cured from the above factors. Why do we do that? Does that mean that we have seen
the Devil with our vision? If any problems come to us, immediately either we seek the
help of an Astrologer or go to a Temple to get a pariharam done, What does this mean?
Why do we go to Temple for Saturn Transit or Guru Transit? Does God exists to tell us that?
A dacoit in a Forest was looting people, who ever going by the forest, mercilessly and
treat them in a cruel way by beating etc. One day, it so happened, a Saint was passing
through the said forest. The Robber caught hold of the Saint and tied him in a Tree and
started beating. The Saint asked the Dacoit, why are you beating me? The docoit mentioned
that I want to have whatever you have. The sage told him that you are doing sin by this
act. He said not at all. Then the Sage told the Dacoit to go and find out from his family Members,
whether they would partake his sins. The dacoit tied the hands and legs and roped the Sage
in a tree and went to his house. The Dacoit asked his family members about sharing the
sins. None of the family members, i.e. his Mother, Father and Wife, were willing to share
his sins. On realising the same, he came back to the Sage and fell before him and asked his
pardon. He is nothing but Valmikhi, who wrote the Ramayanam. His original name was
Ratnakar. He underwent meditation. While he was doing penance, the white ants, termite
covered over the entire body. Termite in Sanskrit is known as Valmikh. That is why, he came
to be called as Valmikhi. Our Famous Ithihasas like Ramayanam and Mahabharatha have many
instances to prove about the existence of God. Shri Rama and Shri Krishna took Avatars to
indicate the God's presence to be felt by the ordinary man like us. They followed the Dharma
and the Hindu Scriptures are the true and proof for the existence of God.
Balasubramanian
Ambattur
faith can feel the visions of God or blessings of God which protects us. As we
prepare for a Yoga, we have to prepare our mental frame with complete faith on HIM.
Our eyes are not just like that created to see all the spiritual things at one stroke.
We talk of Satan/Devil i.e. a wicked or mischievous person. As everyone reads
Hindu Scriptures, people would have read Devil stories too. Are they equally acceptable
or unacceptable. When some unpleasant situation arises, people immediately rush to
God or astrologer to get cured, why then we run to them. Why not we keep silent without
taking any action. If some people do some harsh things, people immediately utter
he behaves like a devil or does like a devil. If someone drives a Car alone in the midnight
and if the car gets crashed against the tree or meets with an accident, when the local
start commenting, it may be a devil's play, immediately people start believing it. Why?
Can any one deny if there is a truth and stand against it. If we are happy and enjoy
our life and get promotions in the office without any hurdles, immediately we say it is all
because God's blessings. Why we utter that statement? If our children studies well and
scores good mark and comes First Rank in the School, we just not stop stating that he
has studied well, but we add he has God's and Teacher's Blessings. God may be invisible
in his Nature, but don't we not feel or believe his supreme power in each and every
activity that we pursue. Without faith and devotion, one cannot please God just like
that. But God knows our desires and hears our problems and extends help or relieves our
miseries through someone in the form of God's representative. With our human limitations,
unless one has complete involvement in the spiritual activities, unconditional bakthi or
devotion, it takes time to get to know the feelings about the presence of God. If one
meditates for a few hours daily, without any interference from the environment, having
no wavering in the mind towards any desire or ambition, physical or emotional sensations
to the material benefits, as the days progress one can certainly find a change in the
mind about the spiritual factors that may emerge from our inner mind.
Sometimes, we may travel in a car alone in the midnight and if by any chance, if the car
crashes towards a tree or meets with an accident in a place, people gathering around
at times whisper stating that a devil exists there and that has led to the accident.
Do we believe or fear? Immediately, we rush to an astrologer or to a temple to get
cured from the above factors. Why do we do that? Does that mean that we have seen
the Devil with our vision? If any problems come to us, immediately either we seek the
help of an Astrologer or go to a Temple to get a pariharam done, What does this mean?
Why do we go to Temple for Saturn Transit or Guru Transit? Does God exists to tell us that?
A dacoit in a Forest was looting people, who ever going by the forest, mercilessly and
treat them in a cruel way by beating etc. One day, it so happened, a Saint was passing
through the said forest. The Robber caught hold of the Saint and tied him in a Tree and
started beating. The Saint asked the Dacoit, why are you beating me? The docoit mentioned
that I want to have whatever you have. The sage told him that you are doing sin by this
act. He said not at all. Then the Sage told the Dacoit to go and find out from his family Members,
whether they would partake his sins. The dacoit tied the hands and legs and roped the Sage
in a tree and went to his house. The Dacoit asked his family members about sharing the
sins. None of the family members, i.e. his Mother, Father and Wife, were willing to share
his sins. On realising the same, he came back to the Sage and fell before him and asked his
pardon. He is nothing but Valmikhi, who wrote the Ramayanam. His original name was
Ratnakar. He underwent meditation. While he was doing penance, the white ants, termite
covered over the entire body. Termite in Sanskrit is known as Valmikh. That is why, he came
to be called as Valmikhi. Our Famous Ithihasas like Ramayanam and Mahabharatha have many
instances to prove about the existence of God. Shri Rama and Shri Krishna took Avatars to
indicate the God's presence to be felt by the ordinary man like us. They followed the Dharma
and the Hindu Scriptures are the true and proof for the existence of God.
Balasubramanian
Ambattur
As regards beggars, I want to add one thing. All of them are not handicapped.
They want to earn their living without putting in hard work. I also heard that some
get their part of their body damaged just to seek sympathy from public. I do not
know how far is true. This is one statement. No one is born blind. We see people
who imitate as blind are only intermediaries.
Above all, why should they choose the Temple Gate, Church Entrance or the Mosque
for begging. Do you mean to say they have no belief in God. Even if they have no
belief, they know the people who are coming out from the above holy places, will
certainly give them some alms. That faith itself is a proof towards God's existence
in a common man.
Balasubramanian
Ambattur
They want to earn their living without putting in hard work. I also heard that some
get their part of their body damaged just to seek sympathy from public. I do not
know how far is true. This is one statement. No one is born blind. We see people
who imitate as blind are only intermediaries.
Above all, why should they choose the Temple Gate, Church Entrance or the Mosque
for begging. Do you mean to say they have no belief in God. Even if they have no
belief, they know the people who are coming out from the above holy places, will
certainly give them some alms. That faith itself is a proof towards God's existence
in a common man.
Balasubramanian
Ambattur
prasad1
Active member
Good post Bala #2152ࡩ,
An ignorant person may not know about God, then again he may not know other things too. Ask him/her about quantum physics, or the constitution, or world out side, they may not know or care. That does not prove the existence or non-existence of that object.
There is a time and place for your quest, it is also depends on your desire, and your capabilities.
An ignorant person may not know about God, then again he may not know other things too. Ask him/her about quantum physics, or the constitution, or world out side, they may not know or care. That does not prove the existence or non-existence of that object.
There is a time and place for your quest, it is also depends on your desire, and your capabilities.
If God 'does' exist, why do we give Him/Her different names and forms such as Shiva, Vishnu, Parvati etc etc? Why can't there be but one common formless God?
Is God merely a figment of fertile human imagination? All those who've claimed to have 'seen' God haven't done so in modern times. Most God sightings are myths, and not rooted in reality.
Is God merely a figment of fertile human imagination? All those who've claimed to have 'seen' God haven't done so in modern times. Most God sightings are myths, and not rooted in reality.
prasad1
Active member
Mr. Aswin,
You might be the most gifted or totally without merit, how you define yourself is your choice. Others have the right to define you by how you present yourself. If I say earth is round, and show you pictures and other proof, but you do not believe it as you do not have faith in me. You believe your eyes and say no earth is flat, I can not convince you. So it is up to you as to what you want to believe.
I do not have a personal argument with you.
You might be the most gifted or totally without merit, how you define yourself is your choice. Others have the right to define you by how you present yourself. If I say earth is round, and show you pictures and other proof, but you do not believe it as you do not have faith in me. You believe your eyes and say no earth is flat, I can not convince you. So it is up to you as to what you want to believe.
I do not have a personal argument with you.
S
ShivKC
Guest
dear ashwin, Brahman is defined as transcendent, immanent omnipresence. with this paramenters, the god head can manifest in any forms,any names or any location. this definition also gives the flexibility for god to be formless or with form or even manifest in stone.
so if you expect god to be the way you want HIM only to be , then you need make your own definition of god, and its possible within the hindu philosophies too
tks
0
Sri KRS -
As you may know, concepts of Karma, Dharma, & Free Will are all integral part of the so called Karma model expounded in Vedas and any one of these concepts cannot exist without the other . While Free Will is experienced by human beings directly, Karma and Dharma are concepts only understood as natural outgrowth of existence of Free Will.
Unfortunately, the way the Karma model is loosely *preached* and practiced in most of India has no connection to what is *taught* (not preached) in Vedas.
The concept of Vidhi/Kismat as practiced in India for most part may actually come from Islamic influence over several hundred years. There is no other way for one to understand how this fatalistic view of life has come about in the Indian psyche and associated with the word Karma.
Many so called atheist are right in rejecting this fatalistic view of life which has no basis in Vedic teaching. Not that those who reject offer anything reasonable to explain the questions you have raised such as 'why bad things happen to good people etc' recognizing that the use of word good and bad are relative to a context.
While there is a concept of Sukshma Sharira in our model, it is not the same as 'soul' as understood in biblical traditions.
Loose and incorrect understanding of Karma model coupled with loose use of concepts for which there are no English word makes the whole topic difficult to accept for many in my view.
Regards
As you may know, concepts of Karma, Dharma, & Free Will are all integral part of the so called Karma model expounded in Vedas and any one of these concepts cannot exist without the other . While Free Will is experienced by human beings directly, Karma and Dharma are concepts only understood as natural outgrowth of existence of Free Will.
Unfortunately, the way the Karma model is loosely *preached* and practiced in most of India has no connection to what is *taught* (not preached) in Vedas.
The concept of Vidhi/Kismat as practiced in India for most part may actually come from Islamic influence over several hundred years. There is no other way for one to understand how this fatalistic view of life has come about in the Indian psyche and associated with the word Karma.
Many so called atheist are right in rejecting this fatalistic view of life which has no basis in Vedic teaching. Not that those who reject offer anything reasonable to explain the questions you have raised such as 'why bad things happen to good people etc' recognizing that the use of word good and bad are relative to a context.
While there is a concept of Sukshma Sharira in our model, it is not the same as 'soul' as understood in biblical traditions.
Loose and incorrect understanding of Karma model coupled with loose use of concepts for which there are no English word makes the whole topic difficult to accept for many in my view.
Regards
Let me try to explain this through Science !
Everthing Originates from quantum Energy (Bramhan). Matter & Anti-Matter come from the quantum Energy. Galaxies/Stars & Black Holes (that devour stars) exists in the Universe. Similarly Good & Evil co-exist, where there is a God, there is a demon.
Universe (Matter & Anti Matter) came from this energy. when Matter & Anti Matter Collide, the world will cease to exist & transform into Energy again. And from this energy, another universe will come about. Hence creation & Destruction are inevitable & continuous ! Hence u have both happiness & suffering in this world.
This Energy is Bramhan, the formless, the ultimate being !.
Chaos theory is a natural phenomenon that occurs in everything & that explains why some are born rich, some poor, some suffer, etc... so good people suffer etc..
Karma is a process to create positive energy, positive thoughts & this naturally leads to a positive life. while this does not eliminate all the problems, positive thoughts & action leads to a better life & minimizes them ! (blunts the negative energy). Remember, no one can have a perfect life, with only good all around, that is the way of nature/God.
The "life force" in all of us is Bramhan & the supreme being !. This is eternal & after life, it goes back to Bramhan. from Bramhan originates both God & Evil.
Hence Good & Evil is in all of us !! The major accomplishment of our Egyptian/Vedic/Dravidian Civilization is the recognition of this & how in this world of Good & Evil co-exist, how should a person live & move towards positive energy/life (Karma).
Hence I said earlier, Lord Krishna's Baghawad Gita is the crowning jewel of our Civilization !!
Everthing Originates from quantum Energy (Bramhan). Matter & Anti-Matter come from the quantum Energy. Galaxies/Stars & Black Holes (that devour stars) exists in the Universe. Similarly Good & Evil co-exist, where there is a God, there is a demon.
Universe (Matter & Anti Matter) came from this energy. when Matter & Anti Matter Collide, the world will cease to exist & transform into Energy again. And from this energy, another universe will come about. Hence creation & Destruction are inevitable & continuous ! Hence u have both happiness & suffering in this world.
This Energy is Bramhan, the formless, the ultimate being !.
Chaos theory is a natural phenomenon that occurs in everything & that explains why some are born rich, some poor, some suffer, etc... so good people suffer etc..
Karma is a process to create positive energy, positive thoughts & this naturally leads to a positive life. while this does not eliminate all the problems, positive thoughts & action leads to a better life & minimizes them ! (blunts the negative energy). Remember, no one can have a perfect life, with only good all around, that is the way of nature/God.
The "life force" in all of us is Bramhan & the supreme being !. This is eternal & after life, it goes back to Bramhan. from Bramhan originates both God & Evil.
Hence Good & Evil is in all of us !! The major accomplishment of our Egyptian/Vedic/Dravidian Civilization is the recognition of this & how in this world of Good & Evil co-exist, how should a person live & move towards positive energy/life (Karma).
Hence I said earlier, Lord Krishna's Baghawad Gita is the crowning jewel of our Civilization !!
tks
0
All-
Let me put forth my understanding and not looking for any debate in the matters of belief systems.
We are all entitled to our belief system.
The following is a belief system not connected to any Science as I know it.
Using scientific terms which have precise meanings out of context to explain vedic terms which also have precise meanings is not scientific in my view.
Besides it weakens both subjects
No response expected to my assertion
Regards
Let me put forth my understanding and not looking for any debate in the matters of belief systems.
We are all entitled to our belief system.
The following is a belief system not connected to any Science as I know it.
Using scientific terms which have precise meanings out of context to explain vedic terms which also have precise meanings is not scientific in my view.
Besides it weakens both subjects
No response expected to my assertion
Regards
N
Nara
Guest
Dear Brother KRS:
When we have a phenomenon we don't understand we can take two approaches, may be more. One is to investigate, gather verifiable evidence, analyze the data, and finally, if a firm conclusion can be drawn, then, and only then, give a definitive answer. Until then, this approach demands that we suspend final judgment. At best one is allowed to entertain a working theory based on available evidence, or lack thereof.
A second approach is to look for some explanation that seem to fit our fancies.
The aim of the first approach is to find the truth, if possible, and if not, develop a workable theory that the available evidence point to. The aim of the second approach is to come up with an explanation that can be asserted successfully to a majority.
One may ask, what is the harm? If an explanation gives some solace why take it away from people in the name of rationality. Well, the problem is, there is harm, tremendous harm. For starters, answering the question "Why bad things happen to good people?" with poorva janma karma (pjk) inevitably leads to callous attitude towards human suffering. This is the least of it.
With due respects, if pjk can be accepted as a rational explanation for bad things happening to good people, why can't it be accepted as the answer for why different people are born in different Varnas? In fact the pjk answer makes more sense for the later than the former, after all good and bad things can happen because of the choices people make, but the biological parents is obviously not one's choice.
This is so even if one argues Varna is not birth based, but based on guna. Why is there difference in gunas? Why is answering this with pjk rubbish, but makes perfect sense in the other case?
These are some of the reasons why I reject pjk altogether.
Cheers!
Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx
guruvayurappan
Active member
dear siva !
yours is a good question.let the rational thinking people give the solution for the human sufferings by means of their SET theory.
guruvayurappan
Dear Sri ashwin_ash Ji,
In one of your posting elsewhere you lamented that the Moderators of this form don't know 'quality' posters (wheat from chaff as you put it).
Sir, may I kindly tell you your post here is exactly the kind that won't point to any wheat?
There are at least 6 folks who answered your previous post in earnest and sometimes with more than one post addressing your query. They have taken time and energy to post with thoughtfulness.
Yet here you are posting what seems like your opinion in an off handed manner, without addressing any of the responses to you. This is not a good Forum conduct.
If you want to come and preach, start your own thread. where you state that no responses are necessary because you are posting your beliefs without wanting any response. But if you post in a discussion thread, you are expected to honor other's responses by addressing them.
If you do not do that, do not expect others to respond or not even give any seriousness to your posting. You will be a chaff, blown away from the Forum, by the collective non response to you by this Forum members.
Regards,
KRS
In one of your posting elsewhere you lamented that the Moderators of this form don't know 'quality' posters (wheat from chaff as you put it).
Sir, may I kindly tell you your post here is exactly the kind that won't point to any wheat?
There are at least 6 folks who answered your previous post in earnest and sometimes with more than one post addressing your query. They have taken time and energy to post with thoughtfulness.
Yet here you are posting what seems like your opinion in an off handed manner, without addressing any of the responses to you. This is not a good Forum conduct.
If you want to come and preach, start your own thread. where you state that no responses are necessary because you are posting your beliefs without wanting any response. But if you post in a discussion thread, you are expected to honor other's responses by addressing them.
If you do not do that, do not expect others to respond or not even give any seriousness to your posting. You will be a chaff, blown away from the Forum, by the collective non response to you by this Forum members.
Regards,
KRS
Dear Sri tks Sir,
I fully agree.
This is why I said that suffering is real. There are many sufferings in this world. Abject poverty with conditions below sustenance .is only one of them. Life long disease with all the material wealth is another. A physically adventurous mind of a paraplegic is another. So on and so forth.
It is interesting how the Atheist community equates 'suffering' always in terms of poverty or class terms.
You are correct. Our Hindu community over time, has put an over weighted emphasis on Karma, without worrying too much about Dharma and forgetting totally about the connection between the two - viz. Freewill.
Regards,
KRS
I fully agree.
This is why I said that suffering is real. There are many sufferings in this world. Abject poverty with conditions below sustenance .is only one of them. Life long disease with all the material wealth is another. A physically adventurous mind of a paraplegic is another. So on and so forth.
It is interesting how the Atheist community equates 'suffering' always in terms of poverty or class terms.
You are correct. Our Hindu community over time, has put an over weighted emphasis on Karma, without worrying too much about Dharma and forgetting totally about the connection between the two - viz. Freewill.
Regards,
KRS
N
nachi naga
Guest
காஞ்சி பெரியவர் ஒரு உபன்யாசத்தில் சொல்கிறார்:
மேல் நாட்டு மாது ஒருத்தி என்னிடம் வந்து, இந்தப் புனர்ஜென்மம் (மறுபிறவி) தத்துவத்திற்கு நிரூபணம் கேட்டாள். நான் அவளிடம் வாதம் ஒன்றும் செய்யவில்லை.
அப்போது மடத்து முகாமில், ஆங்கிலம் தெரிந்த பண்டிதர் ஒருவர் இருந்தார். அவரிடம், அவளை அருகில் உள்ள பிரசவ மருந்துவமனை ஒன்றுக்கு அழைத்து போய், அங்கே பிறந்துள்ள குழந்தைகளைப் பற்றிய விவரங்களைக் குறிப்பெடுத்து வரும்படி சொன் னேன்.
அவரும் அப்படியே பிரசவ மருத்துவமனைக்கு போய், விவரங்களுடன் அந்தப் பெண்மணியை அழைத்து வந்தார்.
அதன்படி ஒரு குழந்தை, "கொழு கொழு' வென்று இருந்தது; இன்னொன்று நோஞ்சானாக இருந்தது. ஒன்று அழகாக இருந்தது, இன்னொன்று அவலட்சணமாக இருந்தது. ஒன்று உசத்தியான வார்டில், சவுக்கியமாகப் பிறந்தது. இன்னொன்று, சொல்ல முடியாத கஷ்டங்களுக்கு நடுவே, பரம ஏழைப் பெண்ணுக்குப் பிறந்தது.
நான் அந்த மேல் நாட்டு மாதிடம் கேட்டது இதுதான்: ஜன்மாவின் கடைசியில், ஒருவர் பண்ணும் பாவ புண்ணியத்துக்கு ஏற்றபடி கஷ்டங்களையும், நன்மைகளையும் அடைகின்றனர் என்று எங்கள் மதம் சொல்கிறது. அது, நம்முடைய கண்ணுக்குத் தெரியாத விஷயம்.
ஆனால், இப்போது, பல ஜன்மங்களின் ஆரம்பத்தை பார்த்தாயல்லவா? இந்த பிரசவ மருந்துவமனையில் பிறக்கும் குழந்தைகள், ஏன் ஒன்று அழகாகவும், இன்னொன்று அவலட்சணமாகவும் பிறக்க வேண்டும்? ஏன் ஒன்று தரித்திரத்திலும், இன்னொன்று செல்வத்திலும் பிறக்க வேண்டும்?
ஜீவனுக்கு ஒரு ஜன்மா தான் உண்டு என்ற, உங்கள் மதக் கொள்கையை ஒப்புக் கொண்டால், அவை பிறக்கும் போதே, ஏன் இத்தனை பாரபட்சங்கள் இருக்கின்றன? சுவாமி கொஞ்சம் கூடக் கருணை அல்லது புத்திசாலித்தனம் இல்லாமல், "கன்னா பின்னா' என்று காரியம் செய்து கொண்டிருக்கிறார் என்று தானே ஆகிறது?
அப்படிப்பட்ட சுவாமியிடம், கருணை காட்டுவார் என்று நம்பி, எப்படி பக்தி செலுத்துவது? பூர்வ ஜன்ம பாவ புண்ணியங்களை ஒட்டியே புனர்ஜன்மா அமைகிறது என்ற கொள்கையைத் தவிர, நீ பார்த்த ஏற்றத் தாழ்வுக்கு என்ன காரணம் சொல்ல முடியும் என்று கேட்டேன்.
அந்த மாது, நான் சொன்னதை ஏற்றுக் கொண்டு, சந்தோஷத்தோடு போனாள்.
மேல் நாட்டு மாது ஒருத்தி என்னிடம் வந்து, இந்தப் புனர்ஜென்மம் (மறுபிறவி) தத்துவத்திற்கு நிரூபணம் கேட்டாள். நான் அவளிடம் வாதம் ஒன்றும் செய்யவில்லை.
அப்போது மடத்து முகாமில், ஆங்கிலம் தெரிந்த பண்டிதர் ஒருவர் இருந்தார். அவரிடம், அவளை அருகில் உள்ள பிரசவ மருந்துவமனை ஒன்றுக்கு அழைத்து போய், அங்கே பிறந்துள்ள குழந்தைகளைப் பற்றிய விவரங்களைக் குறிப்பெடுத்து வரும்படி சொன் னேன்.
அவரும் அப்படியே பிரசவ மருத்துவமனைக்கு போய், விவரங்களுடன் அந்தப் பெண்மணியை அழைத்து வந்தார்.
அதன்படி ஒரு குழந்தை, "கொழு கொழு' வென்று இருந்தது; இன்னொன்று நோஞ்சானாக இருந்தது. ஒன்று அழகாக இருந்தது, இன்னொன்று அவலட்சணமாக இருந்தது. ஒன்று உசத்தியான வார்டில், சவுக்கியமாகப் பிறந்தது. இன்னொன்று, சொல்ல முடியாத கஷ்டங்களுக்கு நடுவே, பரம ஏழைப் பெண்ணுக்குப் பிறந்தது.
நான் அந்த மேல் நாட்டு மாதிடம் கேட்டது இதுதான்: ஜன்மாவின் கடைசியில், ஒருவர் பண்ணும் பாவ புண்ணியத்துக்கு ஏற்றபடி கஷ்டங்களையும், நன்மைகளையும் அடைகின்றனர் என்று எங்கள் மதம் சொல்கிறது. அது, நம்முடைய கண்ணுக்குத் தெரியாத விஷயம்.
ஆனால், இப்போது, பல ஜன்மங்களின் ஆரம்பத்தை பார்த்தாயல்லவா? இந்த பிரசவ மருந்துவமனையில் பிறக்கும் குழந்தைகள், ஏன் ஒன்று அழகாகவும், இன்னொன்று அவலட்சணமாகவும் பிறக்க வேண்டும்? ஏன் ஒன்று தரித்திரத்திலும், இன்னொன்று செல்வத்திலும் பிறக்க வேண்டும்?
ஜீவனுக்கு ஒரு ஜன்மா தான் உண்டு என்ற, உங்கள் மதக் கொள்கையை ஒப்புக் கொண்டால், அவை பிறக்கும் போதே, ஏன் இத்தனை பாரபட்சங்கள் இருக்கின்றன? சுவாமி கொஞ்சம் கூடக் கருணை அல்லது புத்திசாலித்தனம் இல்லாமல், "கன்னா பின்னா' என்று காரியம் செய்து கொண்டிருக்கிறார் என்று தானே ஆகிறது?
அப்படிப்பட்ட சுவாமியிடம், கருணை காட்டுவார் என்று நம்பி, எப்படி பக்தி செலுத்துவது? பூர்வ ஜன்ம பாவ புண்ணியங்களை ஒட்டியே புனர்ஜன்மா அமைகிறது என்ற கொள்கையைத் தவிர, நீ பார்த்த ஏற்றத் தாழ்வுக்கு என்ன காரணம் சொல்ல முடியும் என்று கேட்டேன்.
அந்த மாது, நான் சொன்னதை ஏற்றுக் கொண்டு, சந்தோஷத்தோடு போனாள்.
Mr Nachi Naga. Thank you very much. Really it is an eye opener.
Karma is a genuine practice which one does good to others in whatever
way we can. We without doubt can certainly reap the benefits for the good
deeds we do. There is no hard and fast rule one should do charity beyond
his limits. Doing noble, charitable acts makes us feel better about ourselves.
We can find in our ancient Puranas that how Karma can cause changes in
the lives of the people. People who follow the principles of Dharma and do
any noble act with a positive attitude, feeling, providing help, etc shall certainly
receive a positive energy. We notice people attaining profound happiness in
philanthropic activities and they get relieved from their depression, sorrow, etc.
There is a proverb, we used to hear from our elders i.e. How you sow, you
shall reap. That is why our elders used to say that we should teach good habits
to children at the young age itself and educate them also in eliminating bad deeds.
"Einthil vilayathathu Eimbathi Vilayathu". We read these days in the newspapers
that the son kills the mother, etc. It is all bad karma. You will find later that
he kills himself becoming mad. Sometimes, we read some person is killed by a Thunder,
may be a great wonder for some, but then one relates it as his Karma.
Balasubramanian
Ambattur
Karma is a genuine practice which one does good to others in whatever
way we can. We without doubt can certainly reap the benefits for the good
deeds we do. There is no hard and fast rule one should do charity beyond
his limits. Doing noble, charitable acts makes us feel better about ourselves.
We can find in our ancient Puranas that how Karma can cause changes in
the lives of the people. People who follow the principles of Dharma and do
any noble act with a positive attitude, feeling, providing help, etc shall certainly
receive a positive energy. We notice people attaining profound happiness in
philanthropic activities and they get relieved from their depression, sorrow, etc.
There is a proverb, we used to hear from our elders i.e. How you sow, you
shall reap. That is why our elders used to say that we should teach good habits
to children at the young age itself and educate them also in eliminating bad deeds.
"Einthil vilayathathu Eimbathi Vilayathu". We read these days in the newspapers
that the son kills the mother, etc. It is all bad karma. You will find later that
he kills himself becoming mad. Sometimes, we read some person is killed by a Thunder,
may be a great wonder for some, but then one relates it as his Karma.
Balasubramanian
Ambattur
Dear Brother Nara Ji,
My response is in 'blue':
Regards,
KRS
My response is in 'blue':
Dear Brother KRS:
When we have a phenomenon we don't understand we can take two approaches, may be more. One is to investigate, gather verifiable evidence, analyze the data, and finally, if a firm conclusion can be drawn, then, and only then, give a definitive answer. Until then, this approach demands that we suspend final judgment. At best one is allowed to entertain a working theory based on available evidence, or lack thereof.
A second approach is to look for some explanation that seem to fit our fancies.
The aim of the first approach is to find the truth, if possible, and if not, develop a workable theory that the available evidence point to. The aim of the second approach is to come up with an explanation that can be asserted successfully to a majority.
Well, your assertion that the Karma theory was just was a convenient theory fit for the masses is entirely not based on facts.
If one accepts Vedas as the source books for the metaphysical realm of life, then the theory is an integral part of Hindu thought and overall philosophical structure. We, Hindus believe that the Vedas were of divine origin without any authorship. Now as an atheist you may dismiss this, but as we have discussed many times here, Science has no answers, will not have answers for these questions in the final analysis as per the reasons of closed system analysis and the fact that Science can never answer the final questions about the Super Natural Entity.
So, given all this, let us agree to disagree that you can not convincingly argue that the Freewil-Dharma-Krama theories are wrong and conclusively say that that is now how the natural laws on a human being's life works. What all you can argue for is that you do not believe in these laws, from your ideology as an atheist, because it is an ideology based on faith, which is fair. But when you insist that somehow these 'laws' are false, then it is based mainly on your a prejudice based on your faith, not based on any 'scientific' basis.
One may ask, what is the harm? If an explanation gives some solace why take it away from people in the name of rationality. Well, the problem is, there is harm, tremendous harm. For starters, answering the question "Why bad things happen to good people?" with poorva janma karma (pjk) inevitably leads to callous attitude towards human suffering. This is the least of it.
Where and why does it lead to a callous attitude towards suffering? As I said before in my previous response to Sri tks sir, human suffering is not just about poverty. I do not see in any Hindu teachings that one has to care less for those who are suffering. Varnashrama Dharmas practiced over a long time has in them enough edicts and codes to take care of those who are ;suffering'.
But if you say that this callous attitude exists because of fatalism in a few folks who follow our religion, yes I agree. But again, no religion, ideology is 100% fool proof in making everyone a good caring human being. Even Atheism based on rationality have produced murderers of the highest order.
With due respects, if pjk can be accepted as a rational explanation for bad things happening to good people, why can't it be accepted as the answer for why different people are born in different Varnas? In fact the pjk answer makes more sense for the later than the former, after all good and bad things can happen because of the choices people make, but the biological parents is obviously not one's choice.
Because, there were no 'values' and ranking attached to any Varnas. Because the theory never says that the gunas generate any positive or negative karmas by themselves. It is based on Dharma. That is why a judge who orders the death sentence for a murderer does nor accrue any Karma because he/she is doing his Dharma. This is why the Bhagawan is urging Arjuna to fight. Tell me where in our vedas such a connection is made?
This is so even if one argues Varna is not birth based, but based on guna. Why is there difference in gunas? Why is answering this with pjk rubbish, but makes perfect sense in the other case?
Because, if you look at it, from the gross level, gunas represent only the make up of humans in to different categories, based on their God given talent, that is why. While all people are equal in rights, they are not equal in their abilities. The gunas are just a way to describe these differences among folks to classify them for the society's benefit, especially in an agrarian society.
These are some of the reasons why I reject pjk altogether.
Okay that is your prerogative as a non believer!
Cheers!
Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx
Regards,
KRS
N
Nara
Guest
Dear Bro KRS,
Thanks for your response. I have nothing much more to add, just a couple of comments.
[1] You cite the inerrant Vedas as the basis for pjk. I think the Vedas themselves do not have anything to say on pjk. I think BG (roughly 900 to 1000 CE) is the first time pjk theory gets expounded in detail. If Sangom is reading this I request him to clarify -- I know you don't want to participate, but help out a friend here.
[2] My point is, whomsoever were the originators of the pjk theory, they saw the inequities all around and wanted an answer. They did not take a scientific approach. They came up with pjk as the answer, and simply asserted it and were able to make it stick. If one puts faith in it, then that is fine. But unfortunately, our society is still reeling from the consequences of this theory -- whether these consequences are intended or untended I shall not get into here.
Cheers!
Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx
Thanks for your response. I have nothing much more to add, just a couple of comments.
[1] You cite the inerrant Vedas as the basis for pjk. I think the Vedas themselves do not have anything to say on pjk. I think BG (roughly 900 to 1000 CE) is the first time pjk theory gets expounded in detail. If Sangom is reading this I request him to clarify -- I know you don't want to participate, but help out a friend here.
[2] My point is, whomsoever were the originators of the pjk theory, they saw the inequities all around and wanted an answer. They did not take a scientific approach. They came up with pjk as the answer, and simply asserted it and were able to make it stick. If one puts faith in it, then that is fine. But unfortunately, our society is still reeling from the consequences of this theory -- whether these consequences are intended or untended I shall not get into here.
Cheers!
Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx
Dear TKS:
Sorry - have to disagree with your view that the comparison are out of context. If you give me an example on which terms are out of context, I can try to explain ?
The theory of matter & anti matter is a game changing advance in Science similar to Quantum theory by Einstein !. This explains how Good & Evil exist in every being & every thing.
The Vedic view of the world/universe & God is today being proven right by the advances in Science. So, the scientific view is coming closer to our view of the world, which is extra-ordinary. our ancient Sages knew this thousands of years before.
If you say, the word Bramhan is intrepreted as God in Vedic texts & I am using as a Ultimate being from where both God & Evil comes. let me clarify - Asuras in the vedic texts originate from the Gods - the devas who are cursed are born as asuras.
If you refer to the Vedas, they clearly explain that there is Good & Bad in each Human Being. !. & they explain at length how to tune the body/mind/soul towards the path of Good, hence the path to God.
Cheers,
JK
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S
ShivKC
Guest
Lets say, for the argument sake, let me temporarily agree to what atheists claim..
atheists claim that, PJK theory is all the sole cause for the plight of few lower varnas or saying it in a little economical way,that PJK has failed to motivate the people to try ways to come out of their poverty (sufferings), rather made believers to accept and live with it, sedating their radical thinking. i would add even YAMAKAs one of the most countered argument, 'PJK as the reason for the plight of indian poverty'.
lets agree for a while. (may be i SLIGHTLY be differing here from sh.TKS here)
but then, what better answer atheism has?
with PJK i can always, say to the one, who was starving, 'Com'on its the plight, cos you haven't helped the poor in your previous birth, so you are suffering'.. i can always say to the one who got murdered by the robber, 'oh man, you are dead now, may be because in your previous birth where you did so much wrong, even may be even killed some one, and so you got killed now.' isnt that a better way of making one to bonded to law and morals?
how far is it true i dont know, but it condemns all the wrong, and gives us a teaching to be handed over, 'what you sow, you would reap'. and that makes one to do good, in terms of pariharm , which leads to altruism too, which i feel atheism lacks, though it wants to have a piggy back drive on atheism offlate, claiming it as genetic trait.
here PJK seems to be more convincing and appealing, than what atheism has to offer to me, and to my children.
a children of atheist, has an option that he can go an a looting/shooting spree, rape around the best curves, have a great life with the motive ' eat,drink and be merry, for tomorrow is not ours', and finally shoot himself on his temple, saying, 'com'on, im done with, i enjoyed and dead now, unlike you my neighbors who are still suffering, and havent enjoyed the way i did!!'.
this is a dangerous position for any community to live with. in this context, i feel PJK is better than atheism, until atheism comes concrete here with better solutions.
this is where i said in one of my previous posts, 'dont pen and quick to paint out some thing as wrong, unless you have a good solution on hand'.
one may now only have to resort on the johnny come lately, novelist, i would only call him that great novelist as 'dawkins' (a must read for any one here).. sad, he only could be picked up as a reference to substantiate a dilemma which was debated long by greatest philosophers of this world like 'Sh. Adi Shankara, Plato,Aquinas etc.
Im waiting for a good solution from atheists (at least theoretically), a solution to this dilemma, which i safely hand it over to my children as a 'rule book', than letting them to live with the ideology of 'survival of fittest' 'eat,drink and be merry, for tomorrow is not ours'. selfish genes care for their off springs, right?
atheists claim that, PJK theory is all the sole cause for the plight of few lower varnas or saying it in a little economical way,that PJK has failed to motivate the people to try ways to come out of their poverty (sufferings), rather made believers to accept and live with it, sedating their radical thinking. i would add even YAMAKAs one of the most countered argument, 'PJK as the reason for the plight of indian poverty'.
lets agree for a while. (may be i SLIGHTLY be differing here from sh.TKS here)
but then, what better answer atheism has?
with PJK i can always, say to the one, who was starving, 'Com'on its the plight, cos you haven't helped the poor in your previous birth, so you are suffering'.. i can always say to the one who got murdered by the robber, 'oh man, you are dead now, may be because in your previous birth where you did so much wrong, even may be even killed some one, and so you got killed now.' isnt that a better way of making one to bonded to law and morals?
how far is it true i dont know, but it condemns all the wrong, and gives us a teaching to be handed over, 'what you sow, you would reap'. and that makes one to do good, in terms of pariharm , which leads to altruism too, which i feel atheism lacks, though it wants to have a piggy back drive on atheism offlate, claiming it as genetic trait.
here PJK seems to be more convincing and appealing, than what atheism has to offer to me, and to my children.
a children of atheist, has an option that he can go an a looting/shooting spree, rape around the best curves, have a great life with the motive ' eat,drink and be merry, for tomorrow is not ours', and finally shoot himself on his temple, saying, 'com'on, im done with, i enjoyed and dead now, unlike you my neighbors who are still suffering, and havent enjoyed the way i did!!'.
this is a dangerous position for any community to live with. in this context, i feel PJK is better than atheism, until atheism comes concrete here with better solutions.
this is where i said in one of my previous posts, 'dont pen and quick to paint out some thing as wrong, unless you have a good solution on hand'.
one may now only have to resort on the johnny come lately, novelist, i would only call him that great novelist as 'dawkins' (a must read for any one here).. sad, he only could be picked up as a reference to substantiate a dilemma which was debated long by greatest philosophers of this world like 'Sh. Adi Shankara, Plato,Aquinas etc.
Im waiting for a good solution from atheists (at least theoretically), a solution to this dilemma, which i safely hand it over to my children as a 'rule book', than letting them to live with the ideology of 'survival of fittest' 'eat,drink and be merry, for tomorrow is not ours'. selfish genes care for their off springs, right?
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Dear ShivKC.,
Absolutely agree !. If i may add:
Only our egyptian/dravidian/Vedic civilization attempted to answer the origin of life, creation, destruction, suffering/happiness etc.. is extra-ordinary. None of the other cultures, religions have even tried to do it.
The vedic view of our world is getting proven by every scientific advance. for eg, Einstein's theory of relativity & time dilation/ relative reference explains the Vedic time travels, differnt worlds, ageless & timeless body & worlds etc..
The same Aethiests argued that Time Travel is nonsense/crap/flowery languages
- 100 yrs back, till Einstein proved otherwise.
The more science advances, our vedic texts/view will be confirmed as correct !.
Cheers,
JK
Absolutely agree !. If i may add:
Only our egyptian/dravidian/Vedic civilization attempted to answer the origin of life, creation, destruction, suffering/happiness etc.. is extra-ordinary. None of the other cultures, religions have even tried to do it.
The vedic view of our world is getting proven by every scientific advance. for eg, Einstein's theory of relativity & time dilation/ relative reference explains the Vedic time travels, differnt worlds, ageless & timeless body & worlds etc..
The same Aethiests argued that Time Travel is nonsense/crap/flowery languages
- 100 yrs back, till Einstein proved otherwise. The more science advances, our vedic texts/view will be confirmed as correct !.
Cheers,
JK
S
ShivKC
Guest
Dear ShivKC.,
Absolutely agree !. If i may add:
Only our egyptian/dravidian/Vedic civilization attempted to answer the origin of life, creation, destruction, suffering/happiness etc.. is extra-ordinary. None of the other cultures, religions have even tried to do it.
The vedic view of our world is getting proven by every scientific advance. for eg, Einstein's theory of relativity & time dilation/ relative reference explains the Vedic time travels, differnt worlds, ageless & timeless body & worlds etc..
The same Aethiests argued that Time Travel is nonsense/crap/flowery languages
The more science advances, our vedic texts/view will be confirmed as correct !.
Cheers,
JK
but be prepared to have a good answer handy, if atheists mock it all as 'FICTION'.
anyways, my sole question to atheists-assertion, here remains the same, but not answered yet.. may be i will wait for few more days, until i ask mod's intervention seeking a compelling answer from atheist.
what better answerer atheism has, than whats said?
Dear ShivKC,
Agree.
I am happy to debate any rational objections. lets see the Atheists arguments against this.
I am using scientific theories (the Atheists great argument against religion) to prove the Atheists wrong & our Vedic texts right.
The Matter & Anti Matter theory, Atoms consisting of (proton +ve, Electron -ve), that matter is convertible to energy & vice versa (form to formless), relativity theory etc.. all of them prove the Vedic texts/view are very close to being correct. !!
Cheers,
JK
Agree.
I am happy to debate any rational objections. lets see the Atheists arguments against this.
I am using scientific theories (the Atheists great argument against religion) to prove the Atheists wrong & our Vedic texts right.
The Matter & Anti Matter theory, Atoms consisting of (proton +ve, Electron -ve), that matter is convertible to energy & vice versa (form to formless), relativity theory etc.. all of them prove the Vedic texts/view are very close to being correct. !!
Cheers,
JK
Last edited:
C RAVI
0
Dear Shiv,
You are waiting to reveive a "rule book" from atheists that can offer a better ideology to the humans to get moulded better and have good survival, rejecting the concept of PJK.
I join you here to look for such a "rule book", though I guess the reply from atheists would be - "Instill good values in the kids mind and bring them up well. Teach them what is moral and what is immoral. If they still indulge in wrong activities, as you stated above, they would be taken to task by the law of the land".
Now, what I wanted to add to your post, is -
Asuming the "rule book" contrary to PJK has been accepted and adopted, lets say, a person decided to rob a bank, rape a girl, brutally hit some one as a fun game and do everything wrong to be merry (since there is nothing called past karma, present karma-all that can produce positive/negative karma impacts in the next birth) , again the question from Theists can be -
To what extent the person would indulge in such activities?
What will be the repercussions for such crimes as per the law of the land and how long he can keep escaping from the clutches of law? If not by law, to what extent/how long he can be left scott free by some other person or group of people, without attacking him in return, to any extent?
When the person do all miss deeds, considering "Survival of the fittest", to benefit himself, what can be the logical reason behind some one's suffering as some one at the receiving end, due to this man's wrong intentions and deeds?
For example "A" wants to do anything he likes though its immoral and can destroy /hurt / spoil / ruin some one called "U" (where "U" is a righteous and moral person, a innocent person). For instance "A" has brutally hit "U" just for his fun/experiments. In this case what can be the reason for "U" to be at receiving end in the hands of "A"? As well why "U" got trapped from the whole lot of "B to Z" which includes all sorts of moral and immoral people?
What can be the reasons/justifications behind a innocent person being wrongly declared culprit and pusinshed by the law of the land, in a case where "A" fixes up "U" to get himself relieved from his crime?
Well, I can guess the answer for the above from the atheists would be - "Random Phenomena" without any logic and validity. In this case, is the rule/law of the nature, just with cause and effect phenomena (thats been considered out side the scope/concept of God/Spirituality/PJK, by Atheists) so absurd, that the innocent can suffer with no reasons?
Since some member says that he/she beleives in / honors law/rule of the nature (the nature that has nothing to do with GOD and PJK), how can he/she adore the supremacy of the rule/law of the nature and be a naturalist when the very same nature be so unjustful/cruel towards some innocent in the name of random phenomena?
N
Nara
Guest
Jaykay767, what is your view about other religious people making the same exact claims about their own scriptures?
For example, let us take this question why some are born poor, some rich, some ugly, some beautiful. You explain it on the basis of PJK and insist it is the only possible explanation and it is scientific because Vedas are scientific, or something along these lines.
However, Christians have a completely different view. First of all they insist there is no rebirth, you get just this one life. So, how come there is so much difference even at birth. If you ask Thomas Aquinas he would say life itself is a great gift from god and we have no right to look at what other people are endowed with. He also says all this variety makes the universe perfect (with earth at the center of course). In other words, perfection in the entirety is possible only if there are differences in the individual. This is the reason we see differences.
Further, they say Adam sinned. As a result what god had made as perfect, became cursed. What ensued was corruption and that is the reason for sickness and malformed children. But all is not lost, if they accept Jesus as their savior all will be well and good for eternity.
To the Christians all this is very logical and scientific.
So, Jaykay767, what would you say to Aquinas and other Christians to make them see that it is your Vedas that is scientific and not their Bible?
Cheers!
Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx
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