God Exists

[ShivKC]

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but there is a commonality amongst all religions, about paying the price for the wrongs done in this earth (till death), even if they escapes the law of land or escapes the law vide his death or suicide.

Hinduism,buddhism,jainism addresses it by PJK and abrahamic religions address it by hell/heaven. in totality, all are crystal clear in conveying one simple message 'what you sow, you would reap', even if you escape with the same in this living world. they also gives any one a warning message, not to to do wrong, but not to take this world for granted without any punishments after death.

this is the beauty of religion and god.

now what solution atheism has in the offering about deliverance of ' absolute justice' after when a criminal has gone dead, escaping the law of atheist-land?

 

[saarangam]

If you refer to the Vedas, they clearly explain that there is Good & Bad in each Human Being. !. & they explain at length how to tune the body/mind/soul towards the path of Good, hence the path to God.

Dear jaykay
Your argument will be more authentic if you give the relevant citations from the vedas. Then only one can refer to the vedas as suggested by you.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri ShivKC Ji,

Just for clarification, what is 'deliverance of 'absolute justice?''.

In Hinduism we do not have that concept, do we?

Regards,
KRS

 

[ShivKC]

Dear Sri ShivKC Ji,

Just for clarification, what is 'deliverance of 'absolute justice?''.

In Hinduism we do not have that concept, do we?

Regards,
KRS

sh.KRS,my view on 'absolute justice' is defined this way.

lets say, a many convicted in trial court.. still we are not clear if he is true or not, once the supreme court (the highest judicial body) free's him. in this juncture, some citizens may feel he is innocent, and some feel him as the one who did the act, but escaped the law.

in another eg, some criminal would have escaped all the eyes of the law, and had a peaceful death, rather glorified death in the eyes of the public, but he was once a great criminal under the blanket.

in these situations, we have a problem to define or deliver justice to him, PJK theoretically delivers absolute justice to him, in his next birth.

anyways, just curious.. in this context,let me know, which part of hinduism which neglects deliverance of absolute justice? or do you think, PJK only delivers partial justice?

 

[Nara]

......, what is 'deliverance of 'absolute justice?''.

In Hinduism we do not have that concept, do we?

Dear Shri KRS, you raise an interesting question.

What is absolute justice? Is it something that benefits all the people all the time? Then absolute justice is a mirage. Is it punishment of the perpetrator? That would be retributive justice, leaving the victims high and dry. Is it payment of acceptable compensation to the victims? Then, justice cannot be absolute as not all can pay and not all crimes can be neatly reduced to a compensation amount.

Let us leave the question of what is Absolute Justice aside for the moment.

The notion of absolute justice exists only in the realm of religion, that too only in some religions. The Vedantic religions with pjk don't worry about Absolute Justice as the purpose of life for them is release and this journey is an individual one. Those who commit "sins", whatever way that is defined, accumulate karma and take longer to reach the ultimate goal, that is all.

However, Absolute Justice is an important concept in Christianity and Islam, I am not sure about Judaism. If you don't take Jesus as savior, one will suffer the Absolute Justice of eternal torment in Hell. If you take him to be the savior, even if you were a mass murderer and serial rapist, you will be admitted through those pearly gates to spend an eternity in the amiable company of Jesus. Islam has a similar doctrine, minus Jesus of course. This is Absolute Justice.

An interesting aside is, all this promised Absolute Justice never prevented even the highest of high priests of the Catholic Church from siding with Hitler during the WWII. Shucks, the present Pope was a member of the Nazi youth, though he says he was too young at that time to know any better. (BTW, this "did not know any better" about Jesus is not an acceptable excuse on the day of final judgement before their God!!!).

The case of Protestants is not better, the greatest among them like John Calvin and Oliver Cromwell viciously persecuted their own fellow Christians just because they wouldn't abandon their faith in the Catholic Church. Martin Luther was vicious against Jews as well. It is not far fetched to argue Martin Luther must bear his share of responsibility for the virulent antisemitism of Europe. The funny/sad thing is, these are the saintly people of that religion we are talking about.

So, I find it fascinating that there is talk about killers and rapists going scot-free in a supposed atheist world.

Cheers!

---

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx

 

[Govinda]

Jaykay767, what is your view about other religious people making the same exact claims about their own scriptures?

However, Christians have a completely different view. First of all they insist there is no rebirth, you get just this one life. So, how come there is so much difference even at birth. If you ask Thomas Aquinas he would say life itself is a great gift from god and we have no right to look at what other people are endowed with. He also says all this variety makes the universe perfect (with earth at the center of course). In other words, perfection in the entirety is possible only if there are differences in the individual. This is the reason we see differences.

Further, they say Adam sinned. As a result what god had made as perfect, became cursed. What ensued was corruption and that is the reason for sickness and malformed children. But all is not lost, if they accept Jesus as their savior all will be well and good for eternity.

To the Christians all this is very logical and scientific.

So, Jaykay767, what would you say to Aquinas and other Christians to make them see that it is your Vedas that is scientific and not their Bible?

Acc.t o PJK, the same jiva (thru different bodies) experience the aftermath of unresolved sinful actions, in the form of various obstacles - diseases, poverty, physical deformities, disasters, calamities etc. But no one else is responsible for his actions. In case of crimes, atrocities, laws/dharma shAstrAs had an iron fist on the perpetrators. Still, the answer to why the same jiva should become a victim, is also attributed to PJK.

Acc. to vedic philosophy, Jiva existed in its subtle form eternally (ajo nityah shAsvato ayam purano - BG2.20), Jiva takes the 'gross' body (the matter) according to the PJK (the left over ambitions, chit/knowledge, karma). Acc. to Upanishad, 'Among the 2 sentients, one is omniscient, powerful, unborn and the other one (jiva) is born again and again and powerless, ignorant'. The creation here, is like the mixing and moulding of the clay (jiva + matter) acc. to Karma, and jiva is never created! Jiva has his own nature (levels of cit, which constitutes to Karma) and no-one is responsible for his own freewill. The creator just provides the body, the environment acc. to one own level of cit (karma).

Whereas, why would the descendants of adam, become responsible for adam/eve's corruption? If the soul/jiva has only one life, who is the creator of the Adam descendants? God or Adam? If the former, how can the descendants be affected with Adam's sin? (God created Adam from the dust and Eve from the rib of Adam, then how can there be variety in the creation?). If latter, won't Adam become the God for others? If Jesus died for the sins of all, why should anyone pray to Jesus/God, as they are already taken care of?

 

[Govinda]

Dear Shri KRS, you raise an interesting question.

What is absolute justice? Is it something that benefits all the people all the time? Then absolute justice is a mirage. Is it punishment of the perpetrator? That would be retributive justice, leaving the victims high and dry. Is it payment of acceptable compensation to the victims? Then, justice cannot be absolute as not all can pay and not all crimes can be neatly reduced to a compensation amount.

However, Absolute Justice is an important concept in Christianity and Islam, I am not sure about Judaism.

This is not true. I was reading Vishnu-smriti and Parasara-smriti few days ago, and baffled by the rigid laws/punishments for the physical harm and equally the encouragement/applauses for the charity/gifts for good causes. We even have the similar episodes of the Velir Kings (the kadai ezhu vallal ).

The vedic shastras are complete in all respects. They have the Upanishads/philosophies to keep the mind/sense under control, and hence free oneself from defilements and fantasies. In case, people fails to adhere, they have dharma shAstrAs for the punishments. If by chance, these are being dodged, they have the Karma and hence the horrific hells. This was true within the kingdom of India (in the past).

But current India is a different story, we can meet our esteemed politicians easily in the local jails and they can be the best professors on the subject of corruption.

... edited for now...

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Govinda Ji,

We need to be careful when we post here - we do not want to belittle other religions. Your above post is dangerously close to doing just that. Please try to go through it again, and see whether you can change certain wordings - put yourself in the shoes of someone from these religions reading this.

By the way Professor Nara Ji is correct. While we deal with criminality and such in our dharma shastras, they are just man made laws or Smrithis. No Sruti dictates any such laws. Unlike the Abrahamic religions which have moral laws emanating from the almighty (ten commandments etc.), in our religion such laws are not given down from the almighty. Parabrahmam is just there, not judging.

Regards,
KRS

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri ShivKC Ji,

Hinduism leaves the temporal justice to the rulers according to changing mores and customs.

There is no such thing as 'absolute justice' in Hinduism, because the aim of a person's life goal is to always attain Moksha. The vehicle for this is the maturing of the 'person' spiritually over several births to overcome ignorance. Both the merit one acquires in ones life as wee as the demerits accrued by one's actions are stored as Karmas to be enjoyed in the future life. In this process, one's personal God, we call him Ishwara, allocates a portion of your karma during the present life, mixing both the good and bad Karma phalas together, with the main goal of a person's advancement in spirituality with Moksha as the main goal. This process is complex and there is no direct relationship between the karmaphala and the act that produced the karma. It does not automatically given that if a person kills someone else in rage, the other person in the next life will kill you. It is extremely complex - depending on that person's karma. Let us say someone's deed has always been good in previous lives, both in thought and action, that will not automatically give him Moksha. He would accrue the positive Karma Phala, will have everything in the current life, in a way trapped. Unless he starts not earning any Karma by any of the paths prescribed through detachment, he will keep on accruing Karma, and that will force him to be born again and again. This is the Hindu Vedantic view.

Are you by chance not a Hindu? Seems to me like you hold this concept of 'Absolute Justice' dear.

Regards,
KRS

sh.KRS,my view on 'absolute justice' is defined this way.

lets say, a many convicted in trial court.. still we are not clear if he is true or not, once the supreme court (the highest judicial body) free's him. in this juncture, some citizens may feel he is innocent, and some feel him as the one who did the act, but escaped the law.

in another eg, some criminal would have escaped all the eyes of the law, and had a peaceful death, rather glorified death in the eyes of the public, but he was once a great criminal under the blanket.

in these situations, we have a problem to define or deliver justice to him, PJK theoretically delivers absolute justice to him, in his next birth.

anyways, just curious.. in this context,let me know, which part of hinduism which neglects deliverance of absolute justice? or do you think, PJK only delivers partial justice?

 

[Nara]

Acc. to vedic philosophy, Jiva existed in its subtle form eternally (ajo nityah shAsvato ayam purano - BG2.20),

Whereas, why would the descendants of adam, become responsible for adam/eve's corruption?

Govinda, let us leave for the moment the validity of the claim that BG is vedic philosphy, and let us also leave for the moment the various disparate concepts you are mashing up together in your post, still the above does not make much sense to me. On the one hand you say the claims asserted by the "Vedic philosophy" must be accepted as true, and on the other hand you say the claims of Bible such as sin of Adam, etc. are illogical and must be rejected. Why is one assertion worthy of our reverential acceptance and the other worthy of our scorn? Please explain this as rationally as possible.

Cheers!

---

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx

 

[ShivKC]

Dear Sri ShivKC Ji,

Hinduism leaves the temporal justice to the rulers according to changing mores and customs.

There is no such thing as 'absolute justice' in Hinduism, because the aim of a person's life goal is to always attain Moksha. The vehicle for this is the maturing of the 'person' spiritually over several births to overcome ignorance.
Regards,
KRS

the jist what i conveyed is the same, may be i failed to go more detail about in delivering the quantum of justice over phase of refining through rebirth.

the point what i was trying to convey to atheism is, PJK delivers the absolute/perfect/complete justice

btw, why this question from your Are you by chance not a Hindu? yes, i am


anyways, have a look at this article which talks about absolute justice through karma in hinduism, and how it points the difference of such view in buddhism


Karma means action, and all actions have consequences for good or ill. In accordance with the theory of reincarnation, which is common to the religions born in India, differences in fortune, social position, and endowment are the inherited consequences of actions done in previous lifetimes. In Hinduism this doctrine affirms the absolute justice of the universe with its many inequalities; for who is man to try and change what has been fated by his own past deeds?


http://www.tparents.org/Library/Unification/Books/World-S/WS-12-05.htm

 

[renuka]

Hinduism leaves the temporal justice to the rulers according to changing mores and customs.

There is no such thing as 'absolute justice' in Hinduism, because the aim of a person's life goal is to always attain Moksha. The vehicle for this is the maturing of the 'person' spiritually over several births to overcome ignorance. Both the merit one acquires in ones life as wee as the demerits accrued by one's actions are stored as Karmas to be enjoyed in the future life. In this process, one's personal God, we call him Ishwara, allocates a portion of your karma during the present life, mixing both the good and bad Karma phalas together, with the main goal of a person's advancement in spirituality with Moksha as the main goal. This process is complex and there is no direct relationship between the karmaphala and the act that produced the karma. It does not automatically given that if a person kills someone else in rage, the other person in the next life will kill you. It is extremely complex - depending on that person's karma. Let us say someone's deed has always been good in previous lives, both in thought and action, that will not automatically give him Moksha. He would accrue the positive Karma Phala, will have everything in the current life, in a way trapped. Unless he starts not earning any Karma by any of the paths prescribed through detachment, he will keep on accruing Karma, and that will force him to be born again and again. This is the Hindu Vedantic view.


KRS

Dear KRS Ji,

I agree with you..this is what I have read before too.
Karma is not actually a Tit for Tat game but rather a Cit(Consciouness) and Tat(that as in Absolute) game.

The game is individualized for the Jeeva to attain Moksha and each experience "good" or "bad" are trials to be faced by the Jeeva concerned.
So there is no actually "absolute justice" system..its subject to time,place and person.

 

[Jaykay767]

Jaykay767, what is your view about other religious people making the same exact claims about their own scriptures?

For example, let us take this question why some are born poor, some rich, some ugly, some beautiful. You explain it on the basis of PJK and insist it is the only possible explanation and it is scientific because Vedas are scientific, or something along these lines.

However, Christians have a completely different view. First of all they insist there is no rebirth, you get just this one life. So, how come there is so much difference even at birth. If you ask Thomas Aquinas he would say life itself is a great gift from god and we have no right to look at what other people are endowed with. He also says all this variety makes the universe perfect (with earth at the center of course). In other words, perfection in the entirety is possible only if there are differences in the individual. This is the reason we see differences.

Further, they say Adam sinned. As a result what god had made as perfect, became cursed. What ensued was corruption and that is the reason for sickness and malformed children. But all is not lost, if they accept Jesus as their savior all will be well and good for eternity.

To the Christians all this is very logical and scientific.

So, Jaykay767, what would you say to Aquinas and other Christians to make them see that it is your Vedas that is scientific and not their Bible?

Cheers!

---

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx

Hi Nara,

with all due respect to all religions, none is as advanced as the Vedic religion. & as I said earlier, this is the only religion/culture that attempts to answer the origin/creation of life, what drives the life forms - what is life force?, birth/death cycle, purpose of life etc.. So other religions have a very simplistic view of life & I absolutey respect that. But I believe the Vedic texts are the ones closer to reality!

Lets look at the evidence, with every scientific advance, the Vedic religious concepts are being proven right.

Matter/Anti-Matter theory (everything, everybeing is born with the desctruction (anti-matter) already written into it, God & Evil co-exist, Good & Bad are inherent in everything etc..), Matter converts to Energy & Vice versa (form to formless - so God exists in everything & is both in form & formless, Para Shakthi etc..), near-death experience - they see a bright light at the end of tunnel which is energy/Bramhan), Relativity (Time travel, ageless body (eternal life, youthful life) - Heaven/Devas etc.., concept of ageing is only on earth, no one ages in heaven, etc.. time dilation etc..)

I am sure another scientific advance on birth / death & "re-birth" will comprehensively prove the PJK right beyond any debate. By the teams are working on near death experiences etc.., so it is a matter of time !!

As a believer, I am already working "doubly" hard - to get as much good karma as possible. why wait till science proves PJK right. 90% of the Vedic texts are already proven right, only 10% to go. !!. Anyways PJK is only saying do good to others, which all rationalists, aetheists will agree to !!.

And to all the Dravidians, you know why I keep saying (refer my earlier posts under religion) that we are the greatest civilization in this world & continue to exists with all our culture, languages, rituals, texts, everything "intact" !!.

Cheers,
JK

 

[sarang]

And good karmas in this birth have the power to scorch all bad karmas of previous births.

Good karmas will help one to evolve in the spiritual domain; our material assets in this birth cannot be related to our good or bad karmas in the previous birth.

One must have done good karma even to be born as a human being. A human birth has given him/her the knowledge and vivekam to work for the highest goal- moksha.

Dear KRS Ji,

I agree with you..this is what I have read before too.
Karma is not actually a Tit for Tat game but rather a Cit(Consciouness) and Tat(that as in Absolute) game.

The game is individualized for the Jeeva to attain Moksha and each experience "good" or "bad" are trials to be faced by the Jeeva concerned.
So there is no actually "absolute justice" system..its subject to time,place and person.

 

[C RAVI]

The game is individualized for the Jeeva to attain Moksha and each experience "good" or "bad" are trials to be faced by the Jeeva concerned.

So there is no actually "absolute justice" system..its subject to time,place and person.

What do you mean by saying, PJK has nothing to do with delivering "absolute justice" to a jeeva?

Dear Renuka,

What you beleive and know about Karma theory? I would like to know as what you consider PJK is all about?

Offcourse the game is individualized for the jeeva, who acted as per his/her individuality and accumulated good & bad karma. There is no doubt that each jeeva goes through the refining phase as per one's good and bad karma, in the process of birth and rebirth. As such, Karma Phala would be individualized to that specific jeeva.

I coudn't understand as what way you reject the theory of "deliverance of absolute justice" to a specific individual Jeeva (positively or negatively) as per that Jeeva's Karma?

Physical challenges (right from birth or due accidents), mentall illness, sorrow, pains & sufferings, loss and gains etc..etc are all considered to be the results of our past and present karma.


If a good natured and innocent (as per present janma) jeeva undergoes unreasonable pains, sufferings, set backs etc., on account of oneself or due one's own family members, isn't it considered as the repercussions of past deeds (where the jeeva committed a crime and didn't work towards penance), as per Karma theory?

It is generally believed that though a jeeva do penance for his/her miss deeds, in the present janma itself, the jeeva still has to bear the brunt of his/her wrong doing, in the next birth.

It's the honest inner remorseful feelings and the actual acts of penance/repentance/corrections/replacements etc..etc as an effort towards compensations to honestly correct one's bad deeds, that determines the level/intensity/degree, time, time span of the suffering & the ways and means to bear the brunt of one's bad karma and than the time, ways & means for the positive impacts of good karma to fructify, in his/her next birth, as per PJK phala.



Based on the above, kindly clarify as how "absolute justice" for a specific Jeeva as per Karma theory is ruled out? Offcourse the time and place for offering the justice may vary, but, how Karma theory can fail to deliver "absolute justice" to a jeeva?

 

[nachi naga]

abraham and sarah are reincarnation of brahmaa and saraswathi.there is one god and he is omnipresent as the in dweller in all beings.karma phala is based on ones meritorious deeds in an athman.

 

[renuka]

What do you mean by saying, PJK has nothing to do with delivering "absolute justice" to a jeeva?

Dear Renuka,

What you beleive and know about Karma theory? I would like to know as what you consider PJK is all about?

Offcourse the game is individualized for the jeeva, who acted as per his/her individuality and accumulated good & bad karma. There is no doubt that each jeeva goes through the refining phase as per one's good and bad karma, in the process of birth and rebirth. As such, Karma Phala would be individualized to that specific jeeva.

I coudn't understand as what way you reject the theory of "deliverance of absolute justice" to a specific individual Jeeva (positively or negatively) as per that Jeeva's Karma?

Physical challenges (right from birth or due accidents), mentall illness, sorrow, pains & sufferings, loss and gains etc..etc are all considered to be the results of our past and present karma.


If a good natured and innocent (as per present janma) jeeva undergoes unreasonable pains, sufferings, set backs etc., on account of oneself or due one's own family members, isn't it considered as the repercussions of past deeds (where the jeeva committed a crime and didn't work towards penance), as per Karma theory?

It is generally believed that though a jeeva do penance for his/her miss deeds, in the present janma itself, the jeeva still has to bear the brunt of his/her wrong doing, in the next birth.

It's the honest inner remorseful feelings and the actual acts of penance/repentance/corrections/replacements etc..etc as an effort towards compensations to honestly correct one's bad deeds, that determines the level/intensity/degree, time, time span of the suffering & the ways and means to bear the brunt of one's bad karma and than the time, ways & means for the positive impacts of good karma to fructify, in his/her next birth, as per PJK phala.



Based on the above, kindly clarify as how "absolute justice" for a specific Jeeva as per Karma theory is ruled out? Offcourse the time and place for offering the justice may vary, but, how Karma theory can fail to deliver "absolute justice" to a jeeva?

Dear Ravi,

May be I didnt word my sentence correctly..but its not that I reject the deliverance of "absolute justice" but when we say absolute it sounds too rigid like how some other religions have this heaven and hell concept.

PJK is a very complex as far as I know and you are right when you say that even with repentance/penance etc Karma cannot be wiped out and we still have to go tru it eventually.

But I have read before that at times for example...if a person is currently good in his present life and has some bad karma in his previous life just say he is supposed to may be fail in his bussiness but owing to his present good behaviour he doesnt face absolute loss but bussiness goes down for a while may be some 5 years and then it goes up again..so he went through the "loss" but in small installments.

So this is very hard to explain why and how this worked out this way..Thats why I said we cant be too sure that its "Absolute Justice".
Absolute Justice delivers sentences that are like a Law Book and rigid.

In Hinduism I do not think our concepts are rigid..dont get me wrong Ravi..I am not saying that we can escape Karma in anyway and correct me if I am wrong too.

Awaiting feedback.

 

[ozone]

sh.KRS,my view on 'absolute justice' is defined this way.

lets say, a many convicted in trial court.. still we are not clear if he is true or not, once the supreme court (the highest judicial body) free's him. in this juncture, some citizens may feel he is innocent, and some feel him as the one who did the act, but escaped the law.

in another eg, some criminal would have escaped all the eyes of the law, and had a peaceful death, rather glorified death in the eyes of the public, but he was once a great criminal under the blanket.

in these situations, we have a problem to define or deliver justice to him, PJK theoretically delivers absolute justice to him, in his next birth.

anyways, just curious.. in this context,let me know, which part of hinduism which neglects deliverance of absolute justice? or do you think, PJK only delivers partial justice?

there might not be a one to one co relation as you explicitly state, but I think what you are trying to say is that every action has its consequences, which is very right. It appears that the word 'absolute justice' is in the reign of some other religion, and since it sounds a bit rigid,uttering it is being immediately suspected to be from a non hindu?
Suppose a person is being destined to be born as a robber or a thief because of his past karma whatever that be, does his act of robbery still add up to the bad karma? I think the answer is yes, and the reason is that he was not dstined to be born a robber, but destined to be born of a person deprived of certain qualities or comforts. How he chooses to use this life - he could use it to live with those discomforts and yet do some good karma, or choose to live a life of a robber and accumulate more bad karma. So what you become is not determined or destined in PJK theory.

 

[renuka]

I think all of us here are having a different interpretation of the word Absolute Justice..after reading some post here.

Ok let me first define what I understood by Absolute Justice.

It doesnt mean that PJK delivers partial sentences or not capable to meet out sentences but what I meant is the PJK system is not a rigid one like the heaven and hell concept.

So in no way the PJK system if rejected..but how it functions is not as rigid as we may understand..it is always True and Justice Prevails but sentences might differ from time/place and person.When I say person I mean the Svadharma of a person.


I think the problem here is arising is becos each one of us are having our own definition of Absolute Justice.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Ravi,

May be I didnt word my sentence correctly..but its not that I reject the deliverance of "absolute justice" but when we say absolute it sounds too rigid like how some other religions have this heaven and hell concept.

PJK is a very complex as far as I know and you are right when you say that even with repentance/penance etc Karma cannot be wiped out and we still have to go tru it eventually.

But I have read before that at times for example...if a person is currently good in his present life and has some bad karma in his previous life just say he is supposed to may be fail in his bussiness but owing to his present good behaviour he doesnt face absolute loss but bussiness goes down for a while may be some 5 years and then it goes up again..so he went through the "loss" but in small installments.

So this is very hard to explain why and how this worked out this way..Thats why I said we cant be too sure that its "Absolute Justice".
Absolute Justice delivers sentences that are like a Law Book and rigid.

In Hinduism I do not think our concepts are rigid..dont get me wrong Ravi..I am not saying that we can escape Karma in anyway and correct me if I am wrong too.

Awaiting feedback.

Dear Renuka,

Thank you very much for responding to my post..

We as Hindus know that we are not practicing rigid commandments to follow. We believe strongly in Karma theory, a theory that is very easy to understand as a basic concept of good and bad impacts based on one's deeds and could convince majority of folks to believe in Karma, based on their own experiences. Thus, we leave things to the choice of each individual to live and reap.

I agreed with Shiv's calim of "absolute justice" by Karma theory in the sense that, no one can conceal one's own inner self to self and no one can escape from the impacts of one's bad karma (though found to be roaming around scott free in this physical world, at a given point of time and at a given span of life), sooner or later, in the present life or the next life. The whole process of purification would take place from time to time (brith/rebirth) so that the soul can work towards and achieve moksha. The moksha that is granted based on "absolute justice" within the frame work of Karma theory.

Having relieved from all the attachements of good and bad and nullifying the karma baggage/vasana, in due course of realiazation and purification, a jeeva is offered Moksha, administring the "absolute justice" as per the Karma theory.

Based on the above, I have the acceptance of "absolute justice" administered by Karma theory and thats what I could grasp from what Shiv was saying.

The rest what you have mentioned, I have nothing to find/feel contrary to what I could learn, understand and believe in Karma.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

Thank you very much for responding to my post..

We as Hindus know that we are not practicing rigid commandments to follow. We believe strongly in Karma theory, a theory that is very easy to understand as a basic concept of good and bad impacts based on one's deeds and could convince majority of folks to believe in Karma, based on their own experiences. Thus, we leave things to the choice of each individual to live and reap.

I agreed with Shiv's calim of "absolute justice" by Karma theory in the sense that, no one can conceal one's own inner self to self and no one can escape from the impacts of one's bad karma (though found to be roaming around scott free in this physical world, at a given point of time and at a given span of life), sooner or later, in the present life or the next life. The whole process of purification would take place from time to time (brith/rebirth) so that the soul can work towards and achieve moksha. The moksha that is granted based on "absolute justice" within the frame work of Karma theory.

Having relieved from all the attachements of good and bad and nullifying the karma baggage/vasana, in due course of realiazation and purification, a jeeva is offered Moksha, administring the "absolute justice" as per the Karma theory.

Based on the above, I have the acceptance of "absolute justice" administered by Karma theory and thats what I could grasp from what Shiv was saying.

The rest what you have mentioned, I have nothing to find/feel contrary to what I could learn, understand and believe in Karma.

Dear Ravi,

Read my post above yours..I think it will be clearer of what I meant.
Thanks for reply.

 

[C RAVI]

.... what I meant is the PJK system is not a rigid one like the heaven and hell concept.

..but how it functions is not as rigid as we may understand..

Yes it's not like heaven and hell concept..

BUT,

I feel, Karma theory can well be associated with the term "absolute justice" with the same intensity/rigidity as this term sounds. The thing is, we may or may not care/worry much about it's rigidity, based on what and how much we could feel consciously, deep within our purest inner self (overcoming or ruling our selfishness and desires) and how much are we cautious about the negativity of our possible next birth or even in future course of time in the present life itself.

The sense of "intensity level of Karma impacts" may vary from individual to induvidual. But, I believe thats the most intensed impact that can never be manupulated/bribed to escape.

 

[ShivKC]

but what I meant is the PJK system is not a rigid one like the heaven and hell concept..

doc, would be nice if you could enlighten me here.. what's the role of Yamadarma and his most remembered vahanam?

though i would call it as freedom or liberation, according to you, whats MoKsha मोक्ष Vs Naraka नरक , And the other extremes as defined like Avici or "endless suffering as per buddhism.

i would also add this here "Yudhisthir goes to heaven where he sees Duryodhana enjoying in heaven,Indra tells him Duryodhana is in heaven as he did his Kshatriya duties,then he shows Yudhisthir hell where it appears his brothers are but later its revealed it was a test for Yudhisthir and his brothers and Kauravas both are in heaven and both live happily in divine abode of gods"

Jainism too have a similar one.


anyways, even if you got convinced by this way of equation heaven and hell concept, i also have a counter here.

no hell and no heaven. karma is like cause and effect, for all the good and bad doings. doesnt need a judge in the name of god head , unlike those western religions. i have read this somewhere recently in a forum.

bit confused here right!!

if so, then one has started slipping towards atheism..

 

[prasad1]

no hell and no heaven. karma is like cause and effect, for all the good and bad doings. doesnt need a judge in the name of god head , unlike those western religions. i have read this somewhere recently in a forum.

I recently posted somewhat similar words. They are not original but that is my philosophy.

 

[renuka]

doc, would be nice if you could enlighten me here.. what's the role of Yamadarma and his most remembered vahanam?

though i would call it as freedom or liberation, according to you, whats MoKsha मोक्ष Vs Naraka नरक , And the other extremes as defined like Avici or "endless suffering as per buddhism.

i would also add this here "Yudhisthir goes to heaven where he sees Duryodhana enjoying in heaven,Indra tells him Duryodhana is in heaven as he did his Kshatriya duties,then he shows Yudhisthir hell where it appears his brothers are but later its revealed it was a test for Yudhisthir and his brothers and Kauravas both are in heaven and both live happily in divine abode of gods"

Jainism too have a similar one.


anyways, even if you got convinced by this way of equation heaven and hell concept, i also have a counter here.

no hell and no heaven. karma is like cause and effect, for all the good and bad doings. doesnt need a judge in the name of god head , unlike those western religions. i have read this somewhere recently in a forum.

bit confused here right!!

if so, then one has started slipping towards atheism..

Dear Shiv,

No..no one is slipping towards Atheism..when we mean no heaven and hell concept..we mean there is no eternal hell where evil doers are roasted or BBQ for eternity or eternal heaven where some sing from cloud to cloud with harps forever and ever.

We are judged by Yama Dharmaraj based on our actions that are stored in the Chitta portion of the Antarkarana which is the secret(Gupta) guarded well till we die..hence the believe that ChitraGupta(Chitta Gupta) stores our records.

I have to agree that there are various dimensions or Lokas as we call it..some which are conducive for spiritual progress and some which are not but never the less its all just temporary abodes till we work out the seeds of our karma fully and Moksha is attained.


Heaven/Hell is not the end point in our religion....Moksha is.