Growing live-in relationships - is it threat to india?

[Jaykay767]

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Dear KRS - 2 of my earlier posts are missing or deleted ? None of them were offensive for sure, so why ? Is it because it is the uncomfortable truth for some of the members in this forum ???? of course the same members are in the country with the highest degree of freedom - 1st amendment.... but want to muzzle here. Can you pl help to reinstate these posts. thanks !. Cheers,

 

[sarang]

I agree with you 100%.

My definition of such broad mindedness is - when you see your kids doing what you wanted to do, but could not, you justify your stand and mindset as broad-mindedness.

Is there a forum where such universal broadmindedness is welcomed and embraced with open arms. I would like to see what is discussed there.

Most of the BBs, atheists and universal brother hood proponents have confessed that their policies and principles are outpoured only in this forum; it seems only sanatana dharmists and hindu brahmins in general and TBs in particular are madisanjis and have to be educated and converted to the new era of their own perception of what is good.

Let me summarize this for our general public who may get carried away by the neo age misguided wisdom.

First off – who is bothered if a Indian born in America is unable to bond with the ones in India? who is bothered if they can bond with the Whites better? Who cares if they want to marry the people from India or not, they can marry anyone or anything fromanywhere !!

Second -Traditionalists are least bothered whether someone in America attended Havard or Yale, or they intermingled with other races to become broad minded ?. Oh, by the way, what do you think broad minded is? – live-in relation, teen sex,apeing western culture.. let them tell us one thing they have evolved as a “new tradition” which is positive to the people ?????

Third – Traditionalists will never give up the tradition, culture, customs & rituals. People are free to go away from all this - anytime, anywhere. They can all get into IC/IR etc.. they can talk in any language, freely intermingle with all the great people of other races. We are NOT interested one bit in this & is totally irrelevant !!

Fourth – if the neoage people are so broad minded, why do they come to such tradition based forums & waste the traditionalist’s time & confuse the innocent general public who come to such forums to learn our tradition !!

Fifth – if they are so broad minded, why do they take pride if their kids wearing Sarees in western countries ? Sarees are a very ancient dress from traditional Southern India, so they should quickly move from my any such old age thinking, icons, dress – LOL!! Oh, whenever it suits them they will align with our tradition (ie showingoff to whites) & then when issues come up they will quickly disassociate from them (ie showing off to whites they are broad minded like them !!) – LOL!!

Only to the people interested to follow our tradition – Pl never ever fall for such trap, there is no coming back. Once you move away from our tradition, & get into IC/IR marriages, that is the end of the story for your family & kids. Many IC/IR kids are desperate to marry Tam Brams because they realize the value of proper tradition & they want to desperately follow our culture, but unfortunately no takers !!!

Pl teach your kids tradition from day 1, ensure they are religious moored – regular temple visits,slokam, mantra chant, teach them our ancient texts, ensure they are absolutely conservative – docile is good , u saw my other post on aggressive culture,etc,. tell them the long term impact of IC/IR marriages, as parents one should explain these kids at early age, then they will never go astray !!

PS: New York has the highest num of Yoga schools & most are whites, they have realized the value of our culture/tradition. US has a num of Sanskrit schools, where they teach our religious texts. Infact many recent books on Vedic Religion is by the Whites.

As they say – Fools rush where the Angels fear to tread”,never ever rush into this mess of – Live-in, teen sex, give up all our traditions, rituals, give up our conservative culture, etc… Lets double down & go all out to propagate our tradition, ensure our kids follow them religiously, their kids follow them, all the way into eternity !!!!

 

[prasad1]

When a guest assumes that he controls the house, it is dangerous. This is almost like a military coup d'état.
It is rather rude to usurp the house that Praveen built, where we are all his guest.
Why can we not accept his concept of Tamil Brahmin community, which is this site?
Why antagonize half of the members here, by characterizing them as non-brahmin, non-Indian, etc.
No one can claim exclusivity to culture (?), what ever that be.

 

[prasad1]

I agree with you 100%.

My definition of such broad mindedness is - when you see your kids doing what you wanted to do, but could not, you justify your stand and mindset as broad-mindedness.

Is there a forum where such universal broadmindedness is welcomed and embraced with open arms. I would like to see what is discussed there.

Most of the BBs, atheists and universal brother hood proponents have confessed that their policies and principles are outpoured only in this forum; it seems only sanatana dharmists and hindu brahmins in general and TBs in particular are madisanjis and have to be educated and converted to the new era of their own perception of what is good.

Will you explain what is that you agree with 100% of the post#75.
Are you saying that only people who are your jalara group can stay in this site? Do you realize that you too are a guest in Administrator's site. We are here because The site administrator invited us all.

 

[sarang]

Tamil brahmins have a culture and some want the culture to survive, grow and prosper. Some, who have fallen for the so called liberal western, free for all - but I am right mindset', do not hesitate to run down tamil brahminical values, tradition, way of life, but are generous in their abuse calling as 14th century fossils, expect the 'better half' to accept whatever they dole out and have said/ wished on several occasions vanishing of brahmins and their traditions.

Those who have no respect for tambrams deserve no respect in return; however qualified, westernized or liberated they claim to be.

When a guest assumes that he controls the house, it is dangerous. This is almost like a military coup d'état.
It is rather rude to usurp the house that Praveen built, where we are all his guest.
Why can we not accept his concept of Tamil Brahmin community, which is this site?
Why antagonize half of the members here, by characterizing them as non-brahmin, non-Indian, etc.
No one can claim exclusivity to culture (?), what ever that be.

 

[C RAVI]

Tamil brahmins have a culture and some want the culture to survive, grow and prosper. Some, who have fallen for the so called liberal western, free for all - but I am right mindset', do not hesitate to run down tamil brahminical values, tradition, way of life, but are generous in their abuse calling as 14th century fossils, expect the 'better half' to accept whatever they dole out and have said/ wished on several occasions vanishing of brahmins and their traditions.

Those who have no respect for tambrams deserve no respect in return; however qualified, westernized or liberated they claim to be.

:thumb:

 

[KRS]

Dear C. Ravi Ji,

Unlike some others here, you are a traditionalist, who seemed to have thought through things. But, I think you are not fully grasping certain things, so I am taking this opportunity to provide you with perhaps certain data points that you may not have considered.

I will address two issues you have raised in order:

1. TBs going away from our traditions essentially going against the values that the tradition provides in terms of human happiness with all the attendant human needs.
2. The girls with Indian roots, whether they are born in India, Singapore or Malaysia are hesitant to marry guys from North America, because they do not want to 'intellectually migrate'.

If you agree that my summary of your statements as above is mostly accurate, then let us discuss further. Otherwise, please let me know what I have missed.

Let me address the issues:

1. First and foremost, let me dispel a wrong notion that seems to be provided by some here and so seems to be accepted as though it is a fact. That is that the folks from India are in the west mainly for material reasons, and have adapted FULLY to the so called 'western values'. Neither can be far from the truth.

Most of the old timers like me came to North America to study. We brought our Indian values and culture with us. How can one abandon one's mother country's way of life and culture? In fact, when one goes abroad to experience some other culture, one's mother culture takes an even more importance to oneself, as one is struggling to figure out and define oneself and affirm one's values with the culture one was raised in. For me, India and my TB upbringing and the values I learned never left me. I was driven to do my best in a new country, working very hard, perhaps harder than the natives, to make a mark, and to make my home country and my people proud. I was not after money. I was after accomplishments. Money and material things were incidental. I suspect for many of us who came abroad, this was the criteria. When you do that and live in a foreign land, which allows you to succeed, you then adapt that country as your father country and 'intellectually expand'. You never lose your identity as an Indian. This is why, when you say that someone 'intellectually has migrated' or imply that somehow one abandons the old culture, it is offensive.

In my personal life, it so happened, as fate would have it, I married twice. My first wife was Jewish and my current wife is an Indian lady, brought up in India. As fate would have it, I fell in love both times, not because I was looking for it, but God had those plans. I had a very long first marriage and unfortunately lost my wife. After some time, my second wife came in to my life and we have been happily married now for a number of years. I am saying all this, because, neither brought any monetary benefits, it was just love and the children I have are all high achieving happily adjusted adults, who are as we talk have increased my clan and are in the process of increasing it further. We live by moral codes that abide by the human values taught by my religion and my late wife's religion as well. We live a conservative way of life. Please don't make the mistake of thinking that our family values are any less than a traditional TB family's values.

I see more divorces and materialism with certain Indian folks who come to west only for monetary reasons and don't understand this culture. Those folks, interestingly enough, find their refuge in the so called 'Indian Tradition' and do not have proper human values.

Given this, I do not really understand what your issue is, unless you are believing in all the cliches thrown around by some in this Forum about the so called 'western values' adapted by folks with Indian roots.

2. If conservative girls from India, Singapore or Malaysia are afraid to marry American born Indians, one has to view it as a part of them not wanting to marry someone whose lifestyle and mannerism as different from theirs. And this is perfectly understandable, as the reverse would be also true - the Indian American lads will have the same concerns. But let us not confuse this with any lack of values on the part of the AI lads. Generally, they are brought up with solid values. If some go astray, I bet you, it would be in the same percentage of kids going astray in India or elsewhere. North America does not any sole claim on parenting.

So, in my opinion, there are wrong and erroneous assumptions are being made by some to think that somehow the Indian Americans / Indian Canadians are a unhappy lot, veered of from our 'traditional values' and are suffering. Nothing can be farther from the truth. I think Sri Kunjuppu Ji's posting above is very instructive about the clash of surface mannerisms of cultures even within India, even though the value systems may be the same.

Regards,
KRS

[

Shri KRS, I am quoting selectively so as to make my stand clear on important points..

First of all, by being traditional I didn't mean religious orthodoxy. In this fast changing, time consuming and challenging environment TB people have withdrawn themselves from many of religious customs and are tailor making the practices that suites each individual/family. Saastram, Aacharam etc to the core are not in continuation because the times have changed and are not possible. Many of them are irrelevant and can not be continued.

YES!! These folks use the comforts of modern life while retaining the values of social norms and family. This is no wrong. The physical comforts of life are to manage day to day affairs of this fast growing challenging life with ease and the comfort of human's life that facilitates one to live for one's happiness and collectively for the happiness of the family members and the society with human's sentiments, emotions, perception, values etc etc are two different spectrum with which many Indians were surviving, continuing to survive and would strive to achieve the same, managing with the both. Still giving priority to only those that can add value to the values of healthy human living.

At the end of the day, we want emotional contentment that facilitates safety, security, reliability, trustworthiness, intimacy with one for life, true love, care, bondage, commitment and what not? These are the only factors that we feel can make one contented in living a Human Life and not Money and Materials of Luxury as the only determining factors.



Anything can be available anywhere, any thing and any one can be in our shelter, anything can be respected as the options and choice available to each one personally. The point is, how and why there is a gradual shift towards something that is leading to many mishaps? What sort of choices are driving away the values of human living with sense of discipline, respect and security?

The point is to see, what is the right way, the right thing and the right living that ensures mental and emotional security, respect and dignity, safety and security and certainly to see what contributes towards achieving healthy family and healthy society.

The results of each options and choosing them impacts the other available options and its practices. The important thing to see is if the available options and choices made are negatively impacting the other or not?


That's why a set of people who believe in one concept of living would wish to mingle with only those who share the same concept of living, while living together for life as a partner.

It turns out to be utter disappointing and heart breaking to that one set of people in realizing that, in due course of time, people who were from the same foundation are going out to opt the other options of so called happy living (Intellectual Migration). When this happens, that one set of people gradually would cease to exist. And in one fine day, as I said in my previous posts, all humans would get back to the square one.




The above part is your answer to my concluding question in my recent post address to you (in my post no.63)


Many of guys and girls from Malaysia and Singapore with Indian roots have intellectually broadened or intellectually grown as same as guys and girls as Indian Nationals. Out of these who all have not opted for "Intellectual Migration" want to be alert to not become a part of "Intellectually Migrated" individual's life. Otherwise in most cases failures are for sure. If not a total failure, lots of suffering are guaranteed and the precious moments of life are lost

That's the reason, many of the so called intellectually broadened and intellectual grown up girls of India and the girls of Malaysia and Singapore with Indian Roots are hesitant to marry even a American born and brought up guy with Indian roots. The time and moments of one's precious life once gone are gone. There is no rewinding.

 

[KRS]

So, Sri Sarang Ji,

Can you kindly explain to us what the TB culture is? Looks like you seem to have good grasp of it from the 14th century!

By the way, since when you were appointed to be the authority of safeguarding such a culture, if you can define it?

Regards,
KRS

Tamil brahmins have a culture and some want the culture to survive, grow and prosper. Some, who have fallen for the so called liberal western, free for all - but I am right mindset', do not hesitate to run down tamil brahminical values, tradition, way of life, but are generous in their abuse calling as 14th century fossils, expect the 'better half' to accept whatever they dole out and have said/ wished on several occasions vanishing of brahmins and their traditions.

Those who have no respect for tambrams deserve no respect in return; however qualified, westernized or liberated they claim to be.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear C. Ravi Ji,

Unlike some others here, you are a traditionalist, who seemed to have thought through things. But, I think you are not fully grasping certain things, so I am taking this opportunity to provide you with perhaps certain data points that you may not have considered.

I will address two issues you have raised in order:

1. TBs going away from our traditions essentially going against the values that the tradition provides in terms of human happiness with all the attendant human needs.
2. The girls with Indian roots, whether they are born in India, Singapore or Malaysia are hesitant to marry guys from North America, because they do not want to 'intellectually migrate'.

If you agree that my summary of your statements as above is mostly accurate, then let us discuss further. Otherwise, please let me know what I have missed.

Let me address the issues:

1. First and foremost, let me dispel a wrong notion that seems to be provided by some here and so seems to be accepted as though it is a fact. That is that the folks from India are in the west mainly for material reasons, and have adapted FULLY to the so called 'western values'. Neither can be far from the truth.

Most of the old timers like me came to North America to study. We brought our Indian values and culture with us. How can one abandon one's mother country's way of life and culture? In fact, when one goes abroad to experience some other culture, one's mother culture takes an even more importance to oneself, as one is struggling to figure out and define oneself and affirm one's values with the culture one was raised in. For me, India and my TB upbringing and the values I learned never left me. I was driven to do my best in a new country, working very hard, perhaps harder than the natives, to make a mark, and to make my home country and my people proud. I was not after money. I was after accomplishments. Money and material things were incidental. I suspect for many of us who came abroad, this was the criteria. When you do that and live in a foreign land, which allows you to succeed, you then adapt that country as your father country and 'intellectually expand'. You never lose your identity as an Indian. This is why, when you say that someone 'intellectually has migrated' or imply that somehow one abandons the old culture, it is offensive.

In my personal life, it so happened, as fate would have it, I married twice. My first wife was Jewish and my current wife is an Indian lady, brought up in India. As fate would have it, I fell in love both times, not because I was looking for it, but God had those plans. I had a very long first marriage and unfortunately lost my wife. After some time, my second wife came in to my life and we have been happily married now for a number of years. I am saying all this, because, neither brought any monetary benefits, it was just love and the children I have are all high achieving happily adjusted adults, who are as we talk have increased my clan and are in the process of increasing it further. We live by moral codes that abide by the human values taught by my religion and my late wife's religion as well. We live a conservative way of life. Please don't make the mistake of thinking that our family values are any less than a traditional TB family's values.

I see more divorces and materialism with certain Indian folks who come to west only for monetary reasons and don't understand this culture. Those folks, interestingly enough, find their refuge in the so called 'Indian Tradition' and do not have proper human values.

Given this, I do not really understand what your issue is, unless you are believing in all the cliches thrown around by some in this Forum about the so called 'western values' adapted by folks with Indian roots.

2. If conservative girls from India, Singapore or Malaysia are afraid to marry American born Indians, one has to view it as a part of them not wanting to marry someone whose lifestyle and mannerism as different from theirs. And this is perfectly understandable, as the reverse would be also true - the Indian American lads will have the same concerns. But let us not confuse this with any lack of values on the part of the AI lads. Generally, they are brought up with solid values. If some go astray, I bet you, it would be in the same percentage of kids going astray in India or elsewhere. North America does not any sole claim on parenting.

So, in my opinion, there are wrong and erroneous assumptions are being made by some to think that somehow the Indian Americans / Indian Canadians are a unhappy lot, veered of from our 'traditional values' and are suffering. Nothing can be farther from the truth. I think Sri Kunjuppu Ji's posting above is very instructive about the clash of surface mannerisms of cultures even within India, even though the value systems may be the same.

Regards,
KRS

Shri KRS,

Thank you very much for your clear understanding and sparing your time and energy to reply to me, in detail.

I would simply like to re-affirm that -

I am not into absolute generalizations. I have my cousins too, settled in America and I know how they are bringing up their kids by incorporating all the Indian values, tradition and customs that can be possible achieved in the present day, no matter where one is. I also know to what extent they are afraid about their kids growing in America and what level of hardship they are taking in a tactful and friendly manner to keep their children in order.


When we talk about teen sex, boy friend/girl friend relationship that can mutually offer sexual pleasures , live-in-relationships etc..etc and when some attempt to glorify it as the need of the hour and has to be accepted as a different set of respectable culture, myself and other like minded members are denying it and are not welcoming it to be the norm in India, in due course of its adoption, among Indians.

If youths like me are found to be old fashioned curmudgeon and are left behind as losers, I am not bothered. People like me would be more than happy to be left behind rather getting messed up amid mess.

YES!! Exactly!! Many Indians have spoiled their life family life in America. Guys working and settled in America who all have "intellectually migrated" and married to an Indian born and brought up conservative girl have created lots of issues for these girls and for themselves. The conservative girls who were been married off to these guys by their parents and or by the choice of the girl, expecting a better prospect, have let themselves fall in a mess.

If these guys are clean chit guys and only have adopted just western mannerism and nothing wrong, if they value Indian sentiments and mannerism and have the tendency to respect and accept an Indian born and brought up wife's perceptions, level of acceptances towards western mannerism, etc., such guys would never have problem in their family life, while dwelling in America. And there are many such couples living happily in America.


I cited Girls of Malaysia and Singapore with roots in India being hesitant/careful to marry an Indian-American boy is to highlight that, when girls of those countries that are not as same as India in terms of Indian's ethnic cultural and conservativeness, are afraid to join an Indian-American boy for life as a wife, one should understand the level of resistance to such type of lifestyle to be adopted and prevalent in India, by those who cherish Indian culture, Indian social norms and Indian family values, irrespective of where one is, with out being "Intellectually Migrated"

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri C.Ravi Ji,

Even after I have mentioned that it is offensive to me that use the term 'intellectually migrated' and I have stated why, you still are intent on using that term. So be it.

You have also put up a canard. No one in their right mind even in a liberal country as USA is for teen sex. By casually lumping teen sex, boy/girlfriend sex (I assume of adult type, otherwise it is illegal in USA) and live-in arrangement, you are confusing the issues. It is like me saying that the recent rape case in Delhi shows that India is rife with pedophiles, murderers, and sexually deviant.

Let us take these one at a time:

1. Teen sex is not encouraged by anyone in the society here. If at all when it occurs, it is because of bad/neglectful parenting and usually happens more often in the low economic strata of this society, because of various reasons. The society overall is against this. By the way, this is almost unheard of in the IA community.

2. Boy friend / Girl friend sex: Casual sex (one night stand) is still an exception rather than the rule. Usually, this happens when a boy and girl are adults and are going steady. Sex is not viewed in America, between consenting adults as a big deal. It does not carry such a big weight of sin as it does in our 'Victorian' Hindu society. By the way, this again is not something that the IA community encourages. Most IA girls, knowing the Indian tradition are very careful about this; so are other girls from conservative backgrounds, like, Orthodox Jews and Christians as well as other Asian cultures.

3. I don't need to talk about the live-in arrangement. To me that is not just a western phenomenon, and besides, why should we care when two consenting adults decide between themselves on how to live?

I did not say you are an 'old fashioned curmudgeon'. I appreciate your stand and your values. The issue is that you do not seem to either understand or appreciate the values of a person who grew up in two different cultures. Again, you seem to think that your traditional values are the only ones that can make everyone happy. But these folks, who don't follow such traditions, still are happy. Why? Because much like you, they are TBs, except they have grown up in a totally different environment.

No one has said you are a loser. You have every right to believe what you believe. Pursue and marry a girl with the same inclinations. But, please don't disrespect the culture of IA children just because they were born in NA.

I don't know what anecdotal examples of traditional Indian girls you have in terms of getting married to IA boys, but a marriage is always a two way street. But, here I am talking about the IA boys. Not any India born boys who have recently settled in NA. But in general, no one wants to deliberately be a failure in their marriage. This is against human nature.

I have already told you the difference between the conservative cultures of India/Singapore/Malaysia. viz-a-viz NA. No one is forcing anyone to look for a IA boy for marriage. No one is saying that Indian lads should follow the example of IA boys from NA. Obviously there is a problem currently of TB lads from India in getting married. That is the issue. Not these other matters like child sex etc. We are all trying to solve a problem here, are we not? So, how did this suddenly branch in to attacking the values of the IAs in NA?

Regards,
KRS

Shri KRS,

Thank you very much for your clear understanding and sparing your time and energy to reply to me, in detail.

I would simply like to re-affirm that -

I am not into absolute generalizations. I have my cousins too, settled in America and I know how they are bringing up their kids by incorporating all the Indian values, tradition and customs that can be possible achieved in the present day, no matter where one is. I also know to what extent they are afraid about their kids growing in America and what level of hardship they are taking in a tactful and friendly manner to keep their children in order.


When we talk about teen sex, boy friend/girl friend relationship that can mutually offer sexual pleasures , live-in-relationships etc..etc and when some attempt to glorify it as the need of the hour and has to be accepted as a different set of respectable culture, myself and other like minded members are denying it and are not welcoming it to be the norm in India, in due course of its adoption, among Indians.

If youths like me are found to be old fashioned curmudgeon and are left behind as losers, I am not bothered. People like me would be more than happy to be left behind rather getting messed up amid mess.

YES!! Exactly!! Many Indians have spoiled their life family life in America. Guys working and settled in America who all have "intellectually migrated" and married to an Indian born and brought up conservative girl have created lots of issues for these girls and for themselves. The conservative girls who were been married off to these guys by their parents and or by the choice of the girl, expecting a better prospect, have let themselves fall in a mess.

If these guys are clean chit guys and only have adopted just western mannerism and nothing wrong, if they value Indian sentiments and mannerism and have the tendency to respect and accept an Indian born and brought up wife's perceptions, level of acceptances towards western mannerism, etc., such guys would never have problem in their family life, while dwelling in America. And there are many such couples living happily in America.


I cited Girls of Malaysia and Singapore with roots in India being hesitant/careful to marry an Indian-American boy is to highlight that, when girls of those countries that are not as same as India in terms of Indian's ethnic cultural and conservativeness, are afraid to join an Indian-American boy for life as a wife, one should understand the level of resistance to such type of lifestyle to be adopted and prevalent in India, by those who cherish Indian culture, Indian social norms and Indian family values, irrespective of where one is, with out being "Intellectually Migrated"

 

[C RAVI]

Shri KRS,


Just to reply to your statement (as this is relevant to the thread topic) - "3. I don't need to talk about the live-in arrangement. To me that is not just a western phenomenon, and besides, why should we care when two consenting adults decide between themselves on how to live?"


- If its just two out of thousands we can ignore BUT if it gradually progress towards thousands out of thousands?

How many guys are willing to marry a girl who had live in relationship with a guy for couple of years and is now out of relationship and looking for marriage? Similarly how many girls are willing to marry such a guy?

Still, what can we do, if it so happens?? Nothing!! We can only express if we should encourage such live-in-relationship or not and register our concern here.


Shri KRS, I agree to your disagree and rest my case..

 

[Jaykay767]

Dear Ravi: Absolutely agree !. No traditional TB Girl or Boy will ever marry a person who has had a live in relationship. The problem is most IA settled abroad have kids who routinely indulge in this, that's why every one is wary to marry them. Not only from India, but also from Malaysia, Singapore etc.. Cheers,

 

[Jaykay767]

what is this senseless stuff about military coup ?? LOL !!.

Most of us traditional people come to this forum because it is a great place to learn about many of the slokams, mantras, music, exchange pleasantries, opinion, etc.. with other like minded people.

Some people come here with the sole purpose to criticize the traditionalist people & start pushing their useless ideas on live-in, teen-sex, give up all our traditions, following tradition means being backward, people living in TN/South are backward, blah blah blah. And when the traditionalist given them back royally, they start making bizzare comments !!!

And what do you all think these people talk in the US – Oh did you hear, my mama wants to do poonal for his 7 yr old nephew, in what era these people are living???? hahaha These are the people who migrated in the last 10 yrs & were doing all that here in India before migrating.

Such useless worthless ideas are absolutely NOT required, they can continue to keep talking in their frog wells for all we care !! Pl dont come here & spout such ideas, it will be met with fierce resistance !!

 

[Jaykay767]

Oh, by the way, these kids in the US & also some in our metros who routinely indulge in live-in, casual sex, teen-ex, want to marry a traditional TB because of their value system - LOL !!!! look at the outrageous ambition, & dream of these people !!!. well, fortunately for us traditionalist, it has not worked in any of my/my friends circle. Pl ensure they are kept away at a far distance, don't even mingle with them !!

 

[amala]

I'm only asking in the interest of some semblance of accuracy. For all this reciting on and on about girls in Malaysia and Singapore (they come in pairs I see, like Antigua and Barbuda ) being afraid to marry American Desis, how many does the reciter actually know? Anyone? Just one? two? none? I have only anecdotal evidence not hard statistical ones (but it should suffice) that for every few that are afraid, there have been a few more married/dating American Desi men, more so Sporean Indian girls than Msian I admit to knowing. Completely anecdotal, but better than nothing.

 

[sangom]

I'm only asking in the interest of some semblance of accuracy. For all this reciting on and on about girls in Malaysia and Singapore (they come in pairs I see, like Antigua and Barbuda ) being afraid to marry American Desis, how many does the reciter actually know? Anyone? Just one? two? none? I have only anecdotal evidence not hard statistical ones (but it should suffice) that for every few that are afraid, there have been a few more married/dating American Desi men, more so Sporean Indian girls than Msian I admit to knowing. Completely anecdotal, but better than nothing.

amala,

I find that in and around me, parents do not at all prefer an ABCD boy (or girl) for their daughter/son. The main reason seems to be that it is all very permissive sex out there and any boy or girl has experience of sexual intercourse as a part of some school function; it seems that is a must in US. I don't know.

There is still some value attached to a boy/girl (youth) entering wedded life without any previous sex-experience, among the ordinary tabras. This has somewhat been given up in the higher echelons of the community, I find. So also, when divorcee marriage becomes unavoidable, even the middle class tabras are forced to change the rules of the game!

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri C. Ravi Ji,

Think about it - what is live-in relationship except it is a 'gandharva' marriage? An overwhelming majority of these end up as socially sanctioned marriages.

It will always remain as a minority activity (precisely because of the implications and limitations you have outlined below) and even after all the freedoms in USA barely 8 million folks live in this situation, out of 600 million population.

One may disagree with such an arrangement on values basis, which is understandable. But what is not understandable is somehow connecting to the marriage market. These folks are as good as married when it comes to the marriage market, and so why worry?

Regards,
KRS

Shri KRS,


Just to reply to your statement (as this is relevant to the thread topic) - "3. I don't need to talk about the live-in arrangement. To me that is not just a western phenomenon, and besides, why should we care when two consenting adults decide between themselves on how to live?"


- If its just two out of thousands we can ignore BUT if it gradually progress towards thousands out of thousands?

How many guys are willing to marry a girl who had live in relationship with a guy for couple of years and is now out of relationship and looking for marriage? Similarly how many girls are willing to marry such a guy?

Still, what can we do, if it so happens?? Nothing!! We can only express if we should encourage such live-in-relationship or not and register our concern here.


Shri KRS, I agree to your disagree and rest my case..

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Sangom Ji,

You said:

The main reason seems to be that it is all very permissive sex out there and any boy or girl has experience of sexual intercourse as a part of some school function; it seems that is a must in US. I don't know.

With all due respect, while it is possible for the TB community in India to view the IA kids as such, your statement in my opinion is neither fair, nor in good taste.

Generalizing something like this is not fair - in fact, I must say, because of generalizations like these, there are some uneducated and jingoistic statements about IA TB community are being made by some zealot folks right here in this forum.

Besides, how does one know that a perspective bride/groom are involved in pre marital sex? Do they usually divulge such things? I very much doubt that if any IA kid has any such experience in NA, the last thing they will be agreeing to is an arranged marriage. If they do, I can assure you that it is just a very tiny minority.

If IA lads from the western world are having such experiences, I won't put it beyond anything that it is happening in India among our community too.

Regards,
KRS

 

[prasad1]

In a free society, choosing a mate is the progressive of the female sex.

Mate choice is also a key element of mating systems. In most species, females are choosier when picking a mate than males. A significant reason for this is the higher investment females make in each gamete than males. Females may prefer certain males for a variety of reasons, including "good genes", meaning that the male has attributes which predict better survivorship of the offspring, good potential parenting by the male, or possession of resources by the male that will support the offspring during their growth and development.
Additionally, in most species, females are more likely to provide parental care. Females that carefully select their mates are at a lower risk of losing their reproductive investment. Males may be under strong selection for certain traits that are favored by females. Most females look at these traits as indicators of their partner's fitness. Selection favors females that choose males that enhance the likelihood of her offspring's success. Males with more elaborate ornamentation, or that are more colorful, can be displaying a good indicator of value as a mate, and may win the chance to mate with a particular female. (Figure 3). Although mating is important, it can be a costly event — females are predicted to be choosier about selecting their mates than males because of risks during mating, such as aggression or disease transmission, which may negatively impact the female's reproductive output.

In human society men have formulated rules so as to reduce this competition (cultured). In India TB women with their new found economic freedom are able to select their mate. If a man can not support and provide for the offsprings or satisfy the female, no female will select that person.

So then the men have to try harder to win the favors of female companion. From the bemoaning, on this site of certain man I think these men can not provide or satisfy the female quest.

 

[kunjuppu]

amala,

I find that in and around me, parents do not at all prefer an ABCD boy (or girl) for their daughter/son. The main reason seems to be that it is all very permissive sex out there and any boy or girl has experience of sexual intercourse as a part of some school function; it seems that is a must in US. I don't know.

There is still some value attached to a boy/girl (youth) entering wedded life without any previous sex-experience, among the ordinary tabras. This has somewhat been given up in the higher echelons of the community, I find. So also, when divorcee marriage becomes unavoidable, even the middle class tabras are forced to change the rules of the game!

Sangom,

to a normal indian, i would advice against marriage to a desi american (DA). a normally balanced DA will be a product of a culture which believes strongly in finding one's own life partners. usually, the ones, that have hangups, or parents who have still the 70s or 80s attitude from india, so strongly inculcated in the son, that he is of a type, no DA or any other american girl will touch.

Add to it, there is probably lot of mother/son unhealthy closeness here - this i am talking through witnessing 2 cases over the years and these two are the only ones i know, the parents went looking to india for brides. in one case, the bride left the husband and went back to india in 15 days..and i don't know the full story.

i know of a bengali brought up in canada, who on a visit to calcutta, fell in love with a bengu girl. she played tough to get, ultimately demanding that he learn bengali fluently and propose to her only in that language. in 6 months, he picked up the fluency, flew to calcutta, proposed and was accepted. since the mother was my colleague, she resigned her job, for to her, her son marrying a desi bengali was close enough to heaven..and went to india to spend 4 months, arranging the wedding such stories are rare.

girls from india, can be safe in marrying, as my wife, and majority have done, ie marry indian students in usa or canada. but to marry a american brought up desi, they should be very crazy about migrating to usa or hate it in india. both not good reasons, for a marriage.

 

[prasad1]

Dear Sri Sangom Ji,

You said:


With all due respect, while it is possible for the TB community in India to view the IA kids as such, your statement in my opinion is neither fair, nor in good taste.

Generalizing something like this is not fair - in fact, I must say, because of generalizations like these, there are some uneducated and jingoistic statements about IA TB community are being made by some zealot folks right here in this forum.

Besides, how does one know that a perspective bride/groom are involved in pre marital sex? Do they usually divulge such things? I very much doubt that if any IA kid has any such experience in NA, the last thing they will be agreeing to is an arranged marriage. If they do, I can assure you that it is just a very tiny minority.

If IA lads from the western world are having such experiences, I won't put it beyond anything that it is happening in India among our community too.

Regards,
KRS

In days gone by people who had moved out of TN, had difficult time finding mates from TN. My Tamil friends from Bangalore Delhi, and Bombay were reluctant to marry Girls from TN. I was told there is cultural differences. In my family we had girls coming from different parts of TN, and we could see the cultural, temperamental, and value system differences.

Most of the TB girls from North would not even consider marrying a Tamil boy living in TN. In those days TB boys stuck in TN had very little economic opportunity. This might have changed now. Similarly a girl brought up in Singapore, or USA will have to step down to live in TN village today. Why should she do it.
This happens in USA too. Farmers in Utah can not find bride who is willing to give up city life to live in a farming community.

 

[kunjuppu]

KRS,

re your post #93

i find there is a widespread ignorance about life in the usa or mores or sexual attitudes in this forum. people who call themselves traditionalists, take it to understand, that the tolerance of gays or inter racial (IR) marriages in the west, as a sign of decadence.

infact, they need to know, that even 30 years ago, an IR marriage was an oddity in many parts of the USA and illegal in some. Gays even more restricted. ..and the freedoms enjoyed by these, are hard fought and won.

India, with 1.2 billion, probably numerically has more gays, has more sexual crimes and abuse. We are only starting now, to discuss these publicly. Just because it was not reported, it does not mean that it did not exist.

Even among tamil brahmins i have known gays in india. when an obviously effeminate son, does not wish to marry, what is the reason given by the parents? in the olden days, some girl used to be forced on him, while he carried his dalliance with a male lover on the side. nowadays, due to dearth of girls it is not possible.

also, i think, many in the large group of unmarried bachelors, could be gays. because the desire to mate, and to raise a family is such a basic human need. that when lives a lie to such, there is always a suspicion of homosexuality. it has happened, and i am only aghast when traditionalists condemn such things, without understanding the background, or the existence of the same in their own family or friends.

no amount of explanation, i think, will take the wool off the eyes of some. it is breath wasted

 

[prasad1]

KRS,

re your post #93

i find there is a widespread ignorance about life in the usa or mores or sexual attitudes in this forum. people who call themselves traditionalists, take it to understand, that the tolerance of gays or inter racial (IR) marriages in the west, as a sign of decadence.

infact, they need to know, that even 30 years ago, an IR marriage was an oddity in many parts of the USA and illegal in some. Gays even more restricted. ..and the freedoms enjoyed by these, are hard fought and won.

India, with 1.2 billion, probably numerically has more gays, has more sexual crimes and abuse. We are only starting now, to discuss these publicly. Just because it was not reported, it does not mean that it did not exist.

Even among tamil brahmins i have known gays in india. when an obviously effeminate son, does not wish to marry, what is the reason given by the parents? in the olden days, some girl used to be forced on him, while he carried his dalliance with a male lover on the side. nowadays, due to dearth of girls it is not possible.

also, i think, many in the large group of unmarried bachelors, could be gays. because the desire to mate, and to raise a family is such a basic human need. that when lives a lie to such, there is always a suspicion of homosexuality. it has happened, and i am only aghast when traditionalists condemn such things, without understanding the background, or the existence of the same in their own family or friends.

no amount of explanation, i think, will take the wool off the eyes of some. it is breath wasted

LOL
How can you say such a thing about Traditionalist Tamil Boys? I am shocked. I was just now lectured by some traditionalist TB that Traditions are never changed and Traditions are universal, and now you say you have seen aberration of these values.
:flame::mad2::embarassed:

 

[kunjuppu]

LOL
How can you say such a thing about Traditionalist Tamil Boys? I am shocked. I was just now lectured by some traditionalist TB that Traditions are never changed and Traditions are universal, and now you say you have seen aberration of these values.
:flame::mad2::embarassed:

ha ha ha..prasad. it was always there .. the aberrations. except it was all kept under the folds (literally and figuratively too).

every family has an odd unmarried bachelor and effeminate. people dont talk about it, but the problem does not disappear. does it?

i found the traditionalist, remains a traditionalist, only till he faces the challenge of an aberration. if his daughter marries a NB, or even worse, a xtian or muslim, suddenly he becomes enlightened and speaks of universal brotherhood and all religions mean love and such stuff. till this happens, they are all fire and brimstone about tradition and purity and what not. i have seen this happen so many times, i have lost count.

everyone of us lives in some sort of a glasshouse. it is best, not to throw stones, as we end getting getting hurt and wounded ourselves. and all of them self inflicted. why?

i wonder what would happen if the mid 30s bachelors in the forum, fall suddenly in love, and are proposed to a live in arrangement. the current vehement stand against it - would they still adhere to it? or would throw it all to the winds, because of once in a lifetime chance to have had this newly found mate, and happiness. would they throw the current joy for a 'principle'? i think not. at that time, we will hear about gandharva marriage being very much 'indian'.

 

[tbs]

hi
i heard a story in USA...parents migrated to NA abt 40yrs back... they are *******......very conservative and traditionalist ,,very

active in local temple and great devotee of some acharyas........they have 2 daughters....elder was working in fedarel job ...

they tried tambra boy many times....becoz the gal is ABCD....many tambra boys rejected being an ABCD....even she was

not ready to marry a tambra boy...finally she happily married a white guy her own choce....they have kid now....

the gal's mother told me in tamil.....we can bring a bride from india....not bridegroom....becoz bride can easily adjust

with an ABCD boy......but bridegroom cant adjust with an ABCD gal.....especially tambra boys from india...