Hinduism Vs Rest - Part- Ii

[NARAS]

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sirs - bramins have always been a minority in all parts of the world always except for a couple of pockets perhaps. then how could bramins have domnated non bramins?

2. bramins never had non vedic power in their hands. so how could they have enforced their domination?

3. for the past many centuries, it is muslims & christians who had been ruling india. why were they not able to eradicate untouchability?

4. if a person insists that he is superior to other on the basis of birth ,that can be called untouchability. but if a person insists that he is superior to other on the basis of being a vegetarian, that may not be correct, but then that is not untouchability either. again what prevents the non vegetarian in claiming that it is he who is superior on the basis of his physical strength?

5. so it is clear that bramins on their own could never have enforced so called untouchability at any stage of indian history. kshatriyas and vaishyas were also collectivey party alongwith bramins in enforcing 'untouchability' upon lower castes. so why blame bramins alone?

 

[Chintana]

NARAS,

You might want to think of avoiding repetition in some of your points. If somebody has already expressed an idea, please acknowledge that and then add something new of your own if you so wish.

sirs - bramins have always been a minority in all parts of the world always except for a couple of pockets perhaps. then how could bramins have domnated non bramins?

2. bramins never had non vedic power in their hands. so how could they have enforced their domination?

3. for the past many centuries, it is muslims & christians who had been ruling india. why were they not able to eradicate untouchability?

4. if a person insists that he is superior to other on the basis of birth ,that can be called untouchability. but if a person insists that he is superior to other on the basis of being a vegetarian, that may not be correct, but then that is not untouchability either. again what prevents the non vegetarian in claiming that it is he who is superior on the basis of his physical strength?

5. so it is clear that bramins on their own could never have enforced so called untouchability at any stage of indian history. kshatriyas and vaishyas were also collectivey party alongwith bramins in enforcing 'untouchability' upon lower castes. so why blame bramins alone?

 

[Kothai]

Yes, there are alternatives for us.
Regarding defence services (collectively termed for Army,Airforce and Navy) not all the posts and jobs require strong body. I agree that health and physical exercises are essential. But I just wanted to remind that there are many jobs in defence which require less of physical and more of mental power.
In this context I want to mention that my husband is a retired Sergeant from Indian Air Force. He was working in the Computer Department.
And there are many brahmins in Indian Air Force.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sowbhagyavathi Chintana Ji,

I do not subscribe to any 'guilt' theory in this instance - admitting a truth in history should not make the current generation feel guilty at all. The only reason one may feel the guilt is if they do not look upon their fellow men as equal and continue to behave in their privacy and in society in ways that foster the separation of the Hindus by Jathis.

I agree that as a community we are unfairly attacked (there is a thread 'why they hate us?' that went in to some of the reasons), but at the same time one has to admit that rightly or wrongly a sizeable portion of our community still follows some orthodox practices that seem to be discriminatory. These practices will slowly go away in time, but my feeling is that it may not go away completely. Now, other castes also follow some of these practices and while acknowledging it, I would rather focus on what we follow. We can then correct them.

Sri Thangaraj Ji touched upon the very point in his posting, which was not answered.

This topic can very well be discussed in the 'Who are we?' thread. As Brahmins, I think we are between a rock and a hard place. If one admits that Brahminism is indispensible to the survival / revival of our religion, then we need to find some sensible accommodation between getting educated and working in the secular word versus fulfilling our role in the Hindu world.

I am posting a lecture that Sri Vivekananda Ji delivered in Madras on his tour to the South. This lecture speaks to the current problems in Tamil Nadu today as it did when He gave it then.

Please pardon the length of the postings, but I think each of His words must be read to get the gist of his thoughts.

I am deleting the long posts of Sri Vivekananda Ji's speech in Madras, but giving the link below. Please do not miss reading it:

http://www.vkendra.org/articles5.htm


Pranams,
KRS

 

[Chintana]

Too long

Dear Sri KRS,

Thanks for your responses.

I understand why you've posted Swami Vivekananda's words. I think they are great but they belong in the articles section.

I would like for the threads to be strictly about discussions. Please give links where appropriate.

If you do want to post long items please post them in the articles section and refer to them in the threads.

Please retain one portion of his lecture that is most relevant and move the rest to the articles section.

If you don't happen to see this or get to this on time and there are a lot of other posters who respond then I will have to move them before the thread starts to get too thick.

Sincerely,
Chintana

 

[KRS]

Dear Sowbhagyavathi Chintana Ji,

I have added the link to the speech in my last reply above and deleted the postings of his speech.

Since His entire speech is about the very issue we are discussing, I would urge everyone who have not read this speech before to read it.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[Chintana]

Dear Sowbhagyavathi Chintana Ji,

I have added the link to the speech in my last reply above and deleted the postings of his speech.

Since His entire speech is about the very issue we are discussing, I would urge everyone who have not read this speech before to read it.

Pranams,
KRS

Thank you. Greatly appreciated.

I will post my views shortly.

 

[vthangaraj]

Wow…..I am very impressed with your reply Chintan, certainly this has impact on me.

But one thing I would like debate, you have mentioned “in the shoes of a Brahmin student/employee” I accept your view, but as a responsible citizen we should also put ourselves in the shoes of many students who need this special concessions.

Think how can a kid from a village, where there no transport or no facility or no guidance can read/excel and competes with students with all facilities and background. There are million of students whose family is getting education just for past two generations. The whole purpose of the quota system is to bring this kind of people in equal with others. But with all that if you think this students are not earning like FC student, than you are wrong.

Cut off values from MBBS Admission in Tamil Nadu in 2005, for FC is 297 and SC is 291. The mark difference is just 6 and you think the SC student with 291 marks didn’t earn his merit. And some argue, it should be “QUOTA BASED ON ECONOMY”. How this will resolve the problem, it’s a same problem; a poor guy with mark 291 gets the seat while a rich guy with mark 296 does not get the seat. Will it resolve the problem a big NO.
It will bring the same problem with different issue, instead of caste it will be Wealth.

The problem lies not in providing the quota system, but the misuse of this system

1) 60 years after freedom, many caste declaring themselves backward to get quota
2) No one know when this quota system is going to be refined or stopped
3) There is no statistic data to prove which caste is really backward, but politicians claims themselves backward.
4) Is education standards improved in villages? No … hence they will always depend on the concessions

I strongly believe that it’s high time to refine this Quota system.

Chintan, Once again appreciate the way you have walked tho’ the history..."A Class". Keep it up

Thank You
V.

 

[Chintana]

Wow…..I am very impressed with your reply Chintan, certainly this has impact on me.

Thank you. I did what I could.


But one thing I would like debate, you have mentioned “in the shoes of a Brahmin student/employee” I accept your view, but as a responsible citizen we should also put ourselves in the shoes of many students who need this special concessions.

Think how can a kid from a village, where there no transport or no facility or no guidance can read/excel and competes with students with all facilities and background. There are million of students whose family is getting education just for past two generations. The whole purpose of the quota system is to bring this kind of people in equal with others. But with all that if you think this students are not earning like FC student, than you are wrong.

If the government really wants to help such people then it should do what Cho. Ramaswamy suggested. Make basic education free for all and build free hostel facilities for all schools. The hostel would ensure that the children are provided a good atmosphere for learning - many of them don't come from households that value education. This will be a worthy expense that the country should learn how to bear.

In this regard well-to-do forward castes can be given extra taxes - thereby literally making them pay for the lives of the weaker sections.

But I don't understand what denial of opportunities is doing other than promoting hatred and distrust amongst us as Indians.

In other words assume that there are two young boys. One is healthy and registers good growth. The other is weak and has not shown as much growth and is not as tall. How do you improve the situation? You should give more food to the weaker boy and make sure he grows. You should not cut off the head of the stronger boy and say you are bringing equality. That is what the government is doing.

Cut off values from MBBS Admission in Tamil Nadu in 2005, for FC is 297 and SC is 291. The mark difference is just 6 and you think the SC student with 291 marks didn’t earn his merit. And some argue, it should be “QUOTA BASED ON ECONOMY”. How this will resolve the problem, it’s a same problem; a poor guy with mark 291 gets the seat while a rich guy with mark 296 does not get the seat. Will it resolve the problem a big NO.

If a poor student from SC is getting 291 and an FC is getting 297 - if the competition is that close then what is the need for reservation? Let them all fight it out as valiant men and women, not as cowards hiding under the unnecessary protection of reservation.

Again, reservation system is not allowing the non-Brahmins to feel confident about their talents. Much as the way you say that Brahmins treat others differently, I would like to say that even today in the minds of non-Brahmins there is the feeling that 'we are not as good as the Brahmins'. This should go. The reservation system is not helping in this regard.

It will bring the same problem with different issue, instead of caste it will be Wealth.

The problem lies not in providing the quota system, but the misuse of this system

Yes. Even Ambedkar has said there should not be more than 40% reservation.

1) 60 years after freedom, many caste declaring themselves backward to get quota
2) No one know when this quota system is going to be refined or stopped
3) There is no statistic data to prove which caste is really backward, but politicians claims themselves backward.
4) Is education standards improved in villages? No … hence they will always depend on the concessions

All valid points. Ultimately I think we have to find ways to save ourselves from the government.


I strongly believe that it’s high time to refine this Quota system.

Chintan, Once again appreciate the way you have walked tho’ the history..."A Class". Keep it up

Thank You
V.

Thank you for such an honest interest and feedback.

Much appreciated.

Regards,
Chintana

 

[NARAS]

sirs - strictly speaking, even i do not support the idea of quotas based on economic criteria. i think merit should be the ony deciding factor. quotas based on economic criteria 'encourage' a person to be permanently poor so that he or she avails reservation permanently. this is as bad as caste quotas.

 

[NARAS]

Sethusamudhiram - Precursor To Dravidanadu?

SIRS- why are rationalists so eager in completing the controversial sethusamudhiram project? will it help LTTE in any way? is LTTE funding the project indirectly? is it true that pakistan's ISI is also eager on completion of the project? how will pakistan be benefitted because of this? how much money should have been 'made' by contractors so far because of this project? is there a foreign hand behind the project? will the completion of the project be a big boost to the separatist dravida nadu demand? will the canal be a big source of encouragement for criminals, anti national forces, foreign infiltrators & pirates???

 

[NARAS]

sirs- why are more and more non hindus trying to enter orthodox temples, particularly in kerala? i do smell a rat here. allowing non hindus into orthodox temples is like lighting candles inside cracker shop. terrorists could disguise themselves as devotees and come inside and create mayhem. orthodx temples will forfeit their orthodoxy if all and sundry are allowed entry like a cinema theatre.

 

[NARAS]

sirs= if non hindus are freely allowed inside orthodox temples, then it will be easy for pakistan's ISI to send infiltrators disguised as non hindus entering temples and indulge in terrorist activities inside the temples. the pope could send evengelists inside orthodox temples to propagate conversions. of course, all these things are possible even now, but difficult. if all non hindus are freely allowed in orthodox temples, it will be very easy for them to commit mischief. since many non hindus could be visiting these orthodox temples daily without public knowledge, purification rituals should be performed daily- generally, not specifically

but i think there is nothing wrong in any person visiting private temples or temples not following orthodox way of worship.

there is no point in comparing orthodox hinduism with other religions. in islam for e.g. there is no idol worhip at all! but in orthodox hinduism, because of belief in idol worship there is more sanctity in temples where these idols are kept. this sanctity demands that only some category of persons should come inside these places. this sanctity has to be obeyed , irrespective of one may or may not like them.

 

[NARAS]

sirs- i think quotas based on economic criteria is also against merit. but they may not create a vote bank as strong as casteist votebanks which caste quotas have created. but i think it may go against fundamental principle of indian constitution which guaratees equality for all. economic quotas punish those who are rich for no fault of theirs. a meritorious person just because he or she is somewhat affluent, should not be discrouraged mainly on account of his wealth, without bothering about merit. it is quite possible that he or she may have inherited that wealth due to own talent & hardwork. so i find it difficult to support the idea of economic criteria for quotas in govt. jobs and educational institutions.

 

[hariharan1972]

Screenplay writer ?

sirs= if non hindus are freely allowed inside orthodox temples, then it will be easy for pakistan's ISI to send infiltrators disguised as non hindus entering temples and indulge in terrorist activities inside the temples.

Suresh sir,

You should give a serious shot at scriptwriting for Vijayakanth movie !!!!!

I remember one dabba VK movie called 'kovil kaalai' may be time to script a movie called "Coup at kovil" (i know tamil movies have to named in tamil for 100% exemption, for this movie perhaps we can have 33% exemption !)

Sample dialogue : Vijayakanth to paki terrorist

"Aaaang, dei pakisthan theeviravadhi, dhamil nattile motham %&*@#^%&&#$ kovil, adhulla sivan kovil %^&*(#), vishnu kovil &)#$%^&)##$$, periyar sila munnadi irukkira kovil &&)#$%)@, periyar sila munnadi illadha kovil %^)&)#$@)!, prasadama pongal thara kovil ^)$)#$%^, vibudhi mattum kuduthu verum vayathulla anuppara kovil $)%)#%^(*................"

Sir, unga karpanai kudhiraikku kadivalame poda mudiyadhu sir.....

Thappa ninaichukkadeenga oru damasukku than !!!!!:laugh: :laugh:

 

[Chintana]

Dear Hari,

You must have had some free time - I am referring to your last posting.

I had a good laugh.

Chintana

 

[hariharan1972]

Now "who" should "accept this ?"

Now "who" should "accept this ?" - a question thrown in the forum recently

From Hindustan times :

Quote

"The constitution has made untouchability illegal, but caste is still alive in our society. Our goal is to have caste itself banned," says Ravi Kumar, a Dalit MLA. A noisy meeting of tribal students in Cuddalore District, south of Chennai, leaves Ravi Kumar hoarse. But he resolutely prepares for his next meeting in his constituency — the historic Vaishnava temple town of Kattumannarkoil.

Kumar is one of the two MLAs from the Viduthalai Siruthaigal (Dalit Liberation Panthers) in the assembly, which has 44 Dalits. His party leader is Thol. Thirumavalavan of the Parayar community, that for centuries announced village deaths by drumming on the parai (a local drum). From the name of this formerly ‘untouchable’ community had originated the derogatory ‘paraiah’. Today, however, 64 per cent of the 1.1 crore Dalits in the state are literate, just 10 per cent behind the state average of 74 per cent.

"This high literacy level among Tamil Dalits is not due to the Dravidian movement," says Ravi Kumar. "In British Raj, only two communities had a good English education: Brahmins and Dalits. The Brahmins, because they served the British in offices and the Dalits, for serving them at home as cooks, bearers and personal attendants. A Tamil Dalit, Rettamalai Sreenivasan, attended the Round Table Conference in London with Dr Ambedkar."

Dalit political awareness in Tamil Nadu began as early as 1895 with the Adidravida Mahajanasabha founded by M Chinnathambi. His son, MC Raja, made a Rao Bahadur by the British, published a Dalit magazine Parayar (which also means ‘to speak out’) between 1893 and 1900, with a circulation rivalling The Hindu.

However, the last 40 years of the Dravidian movement have not helped Tamil Dalits because of caste demographics.

"Forward castes, including Brahmins, Muslims and Christians, constitute 13 per cent of Tamil Nadu. Scheduled Castes are 19 per cent and Scheduled Tribes one per cent. The rest are intermediary castes who control political power," says P Radhakrishnan, Professor of Sociology at the Madras Institute of Development Studies and author of the study, ‘Religion, Caste and State’ (2007).

Says Ravi Kumar, "Of the 234 MLAs in the present assembly, only two are Brahmins: Jayalalitha and SV Shekhar of the Mylapore constituency. Middle castes have run the government for 40 years. So who is responsible for Dalit non-inclusion?" In the 2004 general elections, the Liberation Panthers and another major Dalit party, the Puthiya Tamilagam, were kept out of the Democratic Progressive Alliance (DPA) led by M. Karunanidhi of the Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam (DMK).

Atrocities against Dalits continue, mostly perpetrated by the two most dominant backward castes — the Thevars (mostly AIADMK supporters) and the Vanniyars (the PMK's vote bank). Two years ago at Thinniyar in Tiruchirapalli district Thevars forced Dalits to eat human excrement. Six months later, Dalits were forced to drink urine at Gounderpatti near Dindigul.

"The only radical solution is to ban caste. No wearing caste marks or retaining caste surnames, banning caste-based organisations and abolishing government caste-counting mechanisms like official forms. But will any political party have the guts to do it? Particularly in TN?" challenges Ravi Kumar.

Is this a constitutional amendment whose time has come?

Unquote

Source : http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=56b96ae0-e5f4-454d-8c89-f1f746868380&&Headline=Ban+caste+itself%2c+say+Tamil+Dalits+

Afterthought :

I haven't posted this to score any 'brownie points' or to deny the fact that some Brahmins too were a part of oppression. I only want to underscore the fact that "Truth is not always one-sided" & legacy "bogeys" are not always valid.

 

[Chintana]

Dear Hari,

Wow! Thanks for that posting!

Remarkable message!

I do hope Mr. Thangaraj gets to see this.

 

[NARAS]

sirs- Hindu scriptures do not sanction untouchability based on birth. as per orthodox hindu tenets, any person could convert to other varna once upon a time. even after this provision was closed, any non bramin could become a bramin either by being born to a bramin father (even if mother is non bramin) or by being adopted by a bramin male or by marrying a bramin male. so it is wrong as 'rationalists' contend that a person could be a bramin only by birth.
so, in hinduism it is individual followrs of religion who have to be reformed, because there s nothing wrong in the scriptures, whereas in other religions, the problem starts with scriptures of these religions itself.

 

[NARAS]

Family Politics Vs Families' Politics!!!!!

SIRS- if a politician promotes a member of his family, then it can be called family politics. but if a politician who has many wives, many children and a family as large as a cricket team promotes many members of his family, then it is not family politics, it is 'families' politics'!!!!!!!

this is exactly what the yellow shawlist is doing now. he is concentrating more on satistying the political lust of his various wives by nominating his sons & daughters born through various wives to various posts, rather than on improving the development of the state.

 

[NARAS]

The Ugly Face Of Families' Politics!!!

SIRS - there are many wrong things about dynasty politics.

1. it discourages merit and makes it easy for a person who is born in the family of a political leader to attain top post without any hardwork.

2. it leads to domination of 1 caste. because members of the same family will be generally from same caste.

3. it seems even if you are born as a dog in the family of the yellow shawist karunanidhi, you can attain top post even at national level without any merit or hardwork!

4. if a politician is like a batsmen people are like bowlers! politicians like yellow shawlist, who always want themselves to be eulogised and detest being made fun of or criticised should never have come to politics, if they are so sensitive and so fearful to ridicule and criticism.

 

[NARAS]

These Lethal , Hearltess Rationalists!!!

SIRS- why are 'rationalists' always projecting the negative picture of epics, scriptures and hinduism? for e.g. take the case of Lord Rama. the fact that just to protect his family's & father's self respect he sacrificed the luxuries of life to live in forests for 14 yrs, the fact that he obeyed his father without any reluctance even though he was so harsly punished for no mistake of his, the fact that he did not have any grugde towards his step mothers even though his step mother kaikeyi was allegedly responsible for banishing him to the forests, the love he had for his wife sitha, the commitment behind his battle against ravana, his compassion towards squirrels, vibishana , the respect he commanded from hanuman, lakshmana and many others, his act of banishing his wife just to protect the respect of the chair he was occupying and above all the fact that he agreed to spend 14 yrs, in exile just to safeguard the self respect of the chair of his father are all aspects about which 'rationalists' always feign ignorance.

similarly why not talk about the compassion of Lord krishna towards his school friend poor sudama? why not talk about LordKrishna's compassion towards arjuna and draupathi? why not talk about how Lord krishna ignored rich but evil duriyodhana and sided & aided poor but noble pandavas just to uphold truth????

Most of the wives of these rationalists are believers. the 'rationalists' abuse gods, but these wives pray for these 'rationalists' and plead pardon for them and ensure that these 'rationalists' walk away scot free with lesser punishment!!!!

 

[silverfox]

Dear Suresh:
An excellent observation! You are right, bro!
On another side, the other day, a friend of mine was frustrated and said: "we continue to pray to all Gods and all that; yet, you see EVR who abused all Gods lived upto 91 years with a very young wife and MK continues to be very healthy with 4 wives (still counting!); where is the justice?"
p.s. we missed you at the coffee shop yesterday (Sunday).

 

[Chintana]

Dear Kothai,

Sorry it has taken me this long to respond to this posting.

Dear Chintana,
I am sorry for using that word but I didn't encourage superiority complex. I wanted to say that people having talents and skills in any field, deserve to have pride whatever group they belong to.

Yes, that's what I thought and I understood it that way. Unfortunately we live in a jaded world where people don't stop to look at the meanings of sentences and are carried away by mere words. Problem of literacy/education perhaps?


As someone has said, most of the people think that Hindu religion is divided into two viz., Brahmins and Non-brahmins. This conception should be changed first. What happened before decades is in no way going to affect the current and the future. We don't fight with any English man for what his forefathers had done in India. We don't hate any Muslim for what some of the Muslim rulers had done in our country.
Similarly, we should not be blamed or affected for what our ancestors did.
We are also citizens of India and have equal rights in everything.

Point very well taken. This is my message too.

In our community also, there are many poor students having high marks but not able to pursue their education; poor youngsters in need of employment to feed their family thanks to the quota system based on caste. According to our constitution no Indian citizen should be deprived of his rights.
If this situation continues, then the days are not far off when Brahmins will be given quota benefits and others will be opposing that.

Only time will tell.

Thanks for your contributions.

Regards,
Chintana

 

[NARAS]

Dear Suresh:
An excellent observation! You are right, bro!
On another side, the other day, a friend of mine was frustrated and said: "we continue to pray to all Gods and all that; yet, you see EVR who abused all Gods lived upto 91 years with a very young wife and MK continues to be very healthy with 4 wives (still counting!); where is the justice?"
p.s. we missed you at the coffee shop yesterday (Sunday).

sirs - i was out on pilgrimage with my family for a couple of days to navagraha temples, and i returned to chennai only on monday early morning. my friend praveen telephoned me on sunday afternoon, but unfortunately i could not attend the meeting as i was out of station.. by god's grace i hope we will meet soon.