I am a Thengalai Iyengar, loving a non-brahmin girl

[sathyaarajan]

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If a brahmin boy marries a NB girl, then also she gets transferred to the husband's gotra, by the mantras recited during the wedding function. The girl, therefore, becomes a brahmin. Hence, as long as the boy and the girl, the future couple abide by the brahmin ways of life and follow the religious customs, neither the boy who marries an NB girl, nor his father will lose any of their rights (lose any of the obligations) cast on them both as brahmins.

The only thing to ensure is that neither the boy nor the girl slip away from the brahmin way of life and take to non-brahmin customs

 

[sathyaarajan]

Some reference from Mahabharatha, saying a conversation between Dharmar and Bhishmar..

“Ograndsire Bhishma! if a brahmin begets a son through a Sudra lady, how can hebecome a brahmin.” asked Dharmaja.
“ODharmaja!I tell you about the marriage conditions. A brahmin can marry another brahminlady, or ladies in Kshatriya, Vysya and Sudra communtiies. Likewise, Kshatriyacan marry another kshatriya lady and also ladies in vysya and sudra communties.A vysya can marry another vysya lady and also a lady in sudra community. Asudra shall marry only a sudra lady and none else. This is marriage system. Ifanybody marries a lady in upper castes than his own caste, it leads tointermixture of castes.
Towhatever caste mother belongs, caste of the child is decided by the caste offather only. This system is accepted in general. Even if the sages and saintsbeget children through ladies in lower castes, they will be treated asbrahmins. Even if a kshatriya begets children through lower communties, theywill be treated Kshatriyas. There are instances, which you might have heard,where some brahmins begot children through cattle and birds. Those childrenwere treated as Brahmins. Therefore, for Brahmins and Kshatriyas, the seed isimportant but not the field. The births of Vasishta, Rushyasrunga, Agastya,Vyasa, sons of Mandapala, Drona, Kripa are best examples. All of them inheritedtheir fahter’s caste.

 

[a-TB]

Very funny thread - certainly deserves the stars it has!
The first poster is no where, I think he ran away LOL

Why is her worried about rituals after his parents death? It all seems fishy

 

[renuka]

Here is a song for Renu. (Vaagmi Sir's views - :welcome


REnoo kalyAnA vaibhOgamE !!


mAppiLLaigaL palar vandhu

madhi mayangip pOyvida,

RENuvukku mAlaiyida

manadhAra vizhaindhida ! :becky:

(REnoo kalyAnA vaibhOgamE)


nAn vegetarian -ena

RENuvum uraiththida,

nammaiyum mAtruvALO
ena avargaL Odida ! :bolt:

(REnoo kalyAnA vaibhOgamE)


azhagan oruvan vandhu

veettinuL nuzhaindhida,

avan thalaiyil sottai illai
ena avaLum pArththida ! :spy:

(REnoo kalyAnA vaibhOgamE)


avan veettup peNgalum

kuttip pottu vaiththida,

avanum padu smart-Aga

iruppadhaik kaNdida !

(REnoo kalyAnA vaibhOgamE)


non.veg-ai iruvarumE

nAn uNNEn endrida,

iruvarin chemistry-yum

perfect-Ai amaindhida ! :hug:

(REnoo kalyAnA vaibhOgamE)


petrOraL pArththuth thandha

mAppiLLai pidiththida,

oru arranged marriage-um

lovvudan mudindhida !

(REnoo kalyAnA vaibhOgamE)

:clap2:

LOL!

RR ji...thank you for this song...cant stop laughing..really nice..will email it to my husband!

 

[Raji Ram]

LOL!

RR ji...thank you for this song...cant stop laughing..really nice..will email it to my husband!

Dear Renu,

Thanks for taking this song in the right spirit!! My d i l was asking me what I write in our forum. I gave this song as an example.

Ram was nearby and told me that it might hurt you! I said 'I know about my friend!'; yes..... I DO.

 

[Jaykay767]

To the OP –

Only correct decision is to leave the girl, & get married to a TB.

If your parents are saying, you will not be eligible to perform certain rituals, please have the common sense to understand how much they are against this.

Are you going to make your parents suffer like this every day for the rest of their lives ? Clearly the right moral answer is no…

Yenappa ouvalovu kadalah… illada kadalah… LOL.. like Helen love story that destroyed the entire kingdom… LOL !!

Some people will endlessly argue on this - Any moral decision should answer – is the suffering inflicted on others worth it for a greater good??? Yes, you can argue the parents are being too conservative, etc… right or wrong, that is the reality.

So given the reality of the situation, the pain & suffering the parents will go through is far far higher than the boy & girl moving on in life, so this is the only right decision… !!

 

[krish44]

#102, this is emotional blackmail of a youngster in love.

If he is man enough he should go ahead and get married, All this parental reservations could have been considered before engaging someone with promise of life together

after marriage.

A few ritual after the demise of a person can hardly be a consideration for not going ahead.

Parents could have thought of better reason for scuttling his marriage with a NB girl.

The boy and his family can be sued for breach of promise.

 

[renuka]

I still dont get it why the obsession with after life and the children suffer not being married.

Poor state of Ambis...TB girls do not want them and when other girls want them ..Ambi's parents are worried of after life.

 

[asadu]

To the Original Poster :

The following is the situation and you can select which ever suits you best :-

1. Convert the girl to your faith and marry her (by adopting her by one of your family members as daughter)

2. Accept her as she is and still you can perform all the rituals without her presence, which is accepted in practice

3. Forget her and marry inside your faith.

I dont think there is any other option best suitable to you. In all the above options, the religious functions can be performed which is accepted in shashtra. Please do not get confused by others or by harsh comments of some members.

Shastras are like law which are enacted from time to time based on the constitution (Veda) corresponding to the current environment. When one old shashtra is null and void, then a new shastra is enacted which is later accepted by the constitutent citizens.

This is my humble opinion without hurting the sentiments of one and all.

 

[tbs]

hi

even the ritual part is very complicated somtimes....i can give some examples......about the sraadha ritual...

1 one school of thought....as soon as soul departs from physical body takes another boy IMMEDIATELY based on karma...

vasaamsi geernani yata vihaya....navaani grinnati naroparan...geeta chapter 2 like wise some upanishads...

2 another school of thought....the soul goes to hell/heaven and again rebiirth,,,,so sraadham required to the soul....


we are really confused ourselves including others too....here the question of OP.....

my thought herewith....love hurts a lot.....like tamil proverb......மீசைக்கும் ஆசை ....கூழுக்கும் ஆசை...மீசை வேணுமா ?....கூழு

வேணுமா ? so decision is yours...purely yours...nobody can help it...

 

[renuka]

Thank you all for your response..
I expected some references and ways to make my marriage possible with my parents' blessings. I see the responses in the thread became so diluted in content. Thank you so much for some ppl who took some care and replied. But I still didn't get what I expected. I'll post here some of the references which I got in different forums..



Some of the responses which I got..

Who is a Brahmin?

Brahmin is a person who is on the spiritual path of attaining Brahman.
He is the one who observes strict discipline (like not eating meat, no intoxication, rituals, chanting mantras etc).
He lives by teaching (preaching) the shastras and he is not material minded at all.
He is pure outwardly and inwardly (pure minded)

In today's world, where can you find people who observe all these strict disiplines?

In your case, your boyfriend is just a superfical Brahmin(I am assuming this, no offense) which means he is just a Brahmin by caste.

Our caste system was based on our duty(Dharma) and not by birth.

Brahminhood is a state of mind which has to be attained, a person doesn't become a Brahmin just because he is born of Brahmin parents.

Ksatriyas are the people who are administrators and defend the land..

So in this present world, you can call people who are working as Police, in the Army, Navy, etc as ksatriyas.

Vaisyas are the businessmen and traders.

Sudras are the people who serve the above mentioned castes.

Most of the people(around 98%) in the present world are sudras.

So, you both are sudras only..

You can get married to each other without any problem

(If your Horoscopes match)

If your boyfriend's parents oppose your marriage to him. Please give them a solid gyan on who a Brahmin is

Thank You.



If a brahmin boy marries a NB girl, then also she gets transferred to the husband's gotra, by the mantras recited during the wedding function. The girl, therefore, becomes a brahmin. Hence, as long as the boy and the girl, the future couple abide by the brahmin ways of life and follow the religious customs, neither the boy who marries an NB girl, nor his father will lose any of their rights (lose any of the obligations) cast on them both as brahmins.

The only thing to ensure is that neither the boy nor the girl slip away from the brahmin way of life and take to non-brahmin customs






Some reference from Mahabharatha, saying a conversation between Dharmar and Bhishmar..

“Ograndsire Bhishma! if a brahmin begets a son through a Sudra lady, how can hebecome a brahmin.” asked Dharmaja.
“ODharmaja!I tell you about the marriage conditions. A brahmin can marry another brahminlady, or ladies in Kshatriya, Vysya and Sudra communtiies. Likewise, Kshatriyacan marry another kshatriya lady and also ladies in vysya and sudra communties.A vysya can marry another vysya lady and also a lady in sudra community. Asudra shall marry only a sudra lady and none else. This is marriage system. Ifanybody marries a lady in upper castes than his own caste, it leads tointermixture of castes.
Towhatever caste mother belongs, caste of the child is decided by the caste offather only. This system is accepted in general. Even if the sages and saintsbeget children through ladies in lower castes, they will be treated asbrahmins. Even if a kshatriya begets children through lower communties, theywill be treated Kshatriyas. There are instances, which you might have heard,where some brahmins begot children through cattle and birds. Those childrenwere treated as Brahmins. Therefore, for Brahmins and Kshatriyas, the seed isimportant but not the field. The births of Vasishta, Rushyasrunga, Agastya,Vyasa, sons of Mandapala, Drona, Kripa are best examples. All of them inheritedtheir fahter’s caste.

Dear Sathyarajan,

All of us were waiting for your reply.
Dont worry of threads being diluted..we members can bounce back anytime to respond to any query.

I hope you can convince your parents about your love.

BTW how about the girls family? Are they OK with an intercaste marriage?

 

[zebra16]

Some reference from Mahabharatha, saying a conversation between Dharmar and Bhishmar..

“Ograndsire Bhishma! if a brahmin begets a son through a Sudra lady, how can hebecome a brahmin.” asked Dharmaja.
“ODharmaja!I tell you about the marriage conditions. A brahmin can marry another brahminlady, or ladies in Kshatriya, Vysya and Sudra communtiies. Likewise, Kshatriyacan marry another kshatriya lady and also ladies in vysya and sudra communties.A vysya can marry another vysya lady and also a lady in sudra community. Asudra shall marry only a sudra lady and none else. This is marriage system. Ifanybody marries a lady in upper castes than his own caste, it leads tointermixture of castes.
Towhatever caste mother belongs, caste of the child is decided by the caste offather only. This system is accepted in general. Even if the sages and saintsbeget children through ladies in lower castes, they will be treated asbrahmins. Even if a kshatriya begets children through lower communties, theywill be treated Kshatriyas. There are instances, which you might have heard,where some brahmins begot children through cattle and birds. Those childrenwere treated as Brahmins. Therefore, for Brahmins and Kshatriyas, the seed isimportant but not the field. The births of Vasishta, Rushyasrunga, Agastya,Vyasa, sons of Mandapala, Drona, Kripa are best examples. All of them inheritedtheir fahter’s caste.

I do not know why you were wasting your time in seeking the advice of the members.

If your parents were not going to be convinced by the quote from Mahabharatha, how would they get convinced by any member's opinion?

 

[கால பைரவன்]

I do not know why you were wasting your time in seeking the advice of the members.

If your parents were not going to be convinced by the quote from Mahabharatha, how would they get convinced by any member's opinion?

Zebraji, Do you still think this thread is started for the benefit of OP's parents?

Also, the passage from Mahabaratha does not explicitly say anything about eligibility to perform rituals in case of intercaste marriage although one can say it is implied. The main thrust of this passage seems to be about caste of offspring.

 

[Raji Ram]

Some of the responses which I got...................

1. In your case, your boyfriend is just a superfical Brahmin(I am assuming this, no offense) which means he is just a Brahmin by caste.

2. Our caste system was based on our duty(Dharma) and not by birth. ..............

3. If your boyfriend's parents oppose your marriage to him. Please give them a solid gyan on who a Brahmin is

What I observe:

1. A non-brahm girl posted this thread as an Ambi seeking knowledge from our members!

2. Who agrees to this jnAnam? :noidea: BTW, is it caste or varNA?

3. There is a ray of hope that the boyfriend's parents will be convinced.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Krish Sir,

Remember to quote a line from any post and answer, please.

When a newbie's posts are included afterwards, the post # changes!

 

[renuka]

What I observe:

1. A non-brahm girl posted this thread as an Ambi seeking knowledge from our members!

2. Who agrees to this jnAnam? :noidea: BTW, is it caste or varNA?

3. There is a ray of hope that the boyfriend's parents will be convinced.

Dear RR ji,


I feel both of them..Ambi and his girlfriend have been seeking answers online.

He was pasting the answer his girlfriend got from another forum.

He being a TB sought to get answers from this forum.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Renu,

May be! But when he goes against the wish of his parents, why worry about their srAddham?

 

[zebra16]

Dear Renu,

May be! But when he goes against the wish of his parents, why worry about their srAddham?

I got the impression from reading his first post that his parents are not opposed to the marriage per se, but only that he cannot perform srAddham on thithi as per shAstrams.

His quest is for shAstric permission, and in fact he has the permission of his parents. So he is looking for a way out.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renu,

May be! But when he goes against the wish of his parents, why worry about their srAddham?

When everything is governed by the Law of Karma why are parents worried about srAddham?

That is why I feel the mindset of worrying about after life should change...the best is to learn to live and not worry about after life.

Parents too should not try to emotional blackmail their children about after life and so on.

In this case I feel he wants to do his duty as a son too without leaving his lady love.

 

[sathyaarajan]

Dear Sathyarajan,

All of us were waiting for your reply.
Dont worry of threads being diluted..we members can bounce back anytime to respond to any query.

I hope you can convince your parents about your love.

BTW how about the girls family? Are they OK with an intercaste marriage?

Beloved people,
I think you all are arriving well to my problem statement. My parents are giving lots of other reasons like what the society will think if I marry a NB girl, Hw my relations will behave with me normally after my IC marriage, How they will answer to the relatives' questions, etc. etc.. I can easily counter these questions by giving some practical examples of other IC marriages and how the world has changed. But, if they say that I'll lose my entity as a brahmin and will not b allowed to do srardham, they will not eat my wife's cooking as she is NB, I become speechless. That's why am trying here to argue that my wife automatically becomes an iyengar with my gothram once she marries me.

I may not get some references which I expected from this forum. Nevertheless, at least I shall share some of my feelings and pain which I take to convince my parents patiently without hurting them much.

For some veterans who argue that my parents are only taking the pain, I would like to say that myself and my wife may be ill-treated by the whole society for the rest of our lives. If we are fully aware of these consequences and pain and if we are ready to take all these, you must think about the power of love and trust we have kept on each other.

I am never gonna argue that my parents doesn't take any pain. Yes, they ll be deeply hurt by the questions of ppl around them, but am asking for a chance.. atleast they can do it for their son's happiness and in return they gonna get a gem of a girl as their daughter-in-law.

My girl's parents are ok for our marriage. Her mom said only her daughter's happiness matters at the end. So the ball is in my court for the past 6months..

 

[kunjuppu]

Kalyanathukku Mun, Kalyanathukku Pin by Ishwarya

here is another pov.. of an iyengar girl, married out of caste, and somewhat humorously/poignantly lists what she misses. interesting to note the number of responses of girls who married out of caste.. and their feedback.

when-i-married-a-non-tambrahm-by-ishwarya/

 

[kunjuppu]

Clichés by Ananya

... and another eye opener...

Clichés by Ananya

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Dear RR ji,


I feel both of them..Ambi and his girlfriend have been seeking answers online.

He was pasting the answer his girlfriend got from another forum.

He being a TB sought to get answers from this forum.

Doctor Mam,

Maybe you are correct. However a google search tells that one of the responses claimed to have gotten by OP is from the hindudharmaforum. Please see here:

http://hindudharmaforums.com/printthread.php?t=6851&pp=10&page=2

See attached images.

The responses in that thread show a time stamp of January 2011. The thread originator in that forum is the non-brahm girl as you deduced and the first message in that thread says that they have been loving for seven years then in Jan, 2011. Now it is Apr 2016.

So what we glean is that this love story has been going on for the past 13 years or so and the answer about scriptural provision/acceptance is still NOT known to the OP!

That is why I think the OP is started NOT for the benefit of himself or his parents but for the readers! These things are unavoidable in an open forum. But members can tone their advice accordingly. So much for integrity

 

[Jaykay767]

Clearly from all this, this Ambi fellow is the meal ticket for this girl. she has found a Bhakara family & decided to take the last ounce from them !!. Bhakara mil gaya, so loot loh... LOL !!

 

[Raji Ram]

Doctor Mam,

Maybe you are correct. However a google search tells that one of the responses claimed to have gotten by OP is from the hindudharmaforum. Please see here:

http://hindudharmaforums.com/printthread.php?t=6851&pp=10&page=2

See attached images. View attachment 5569View attachment 5570

The responses in that thread show a time stamp of January 2011. The thread originator in that forum is the non-brahm girl as you deduced and the first message in that thread says that they have been loving for seven years then in Jan, 2011. Now it is Apr 2016.

So what we glean is that this love story has been going on for the past 13 years or so and the answer about scriptural provision/acceptance is still NOT known to the OP!

That is why I think the OP is started NOT for the benefit of himself or his parents but for the readers! These things are unavoidable in an open forum. But members can tone their advice accordingly. So much for integrity

How did I miss this?? :spy:

A stale lovvu story which is 13 years old!!

Does it need any reply at all??