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Indesent Dressing by Girls

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Dear Shri Ravi,

You might have observed by now that PJ sir made the OP, probably after witnessing very scantily clad young women walking/jogging in the mornings in the US, where he and his wife currently are. He might have thought that if such a thing happens in any part of India (from the capital New Delhi to Jhumri Telaiya in Jharkhand) it is likely to provoke an attack of some kind on such girls/women. And that is but true, today. May be Indian men have all become borderline rapists !!;)

Sangom Sir

My OP is based on what Ali has advised to his daughters; although Ali belongs to a different religion and Dress code is strictly followed, i thought that this advice is equally valid for Women Especially in India.

There might be many reasons for one doing this sinful act, but Women Dressing decently according place, time, culture is always prudent to avoid any POSSIBLE , I repeat ANY POSSIBLE Violation of their modesty.
 
Mr. PJ,
Your statement is absolutely correct.
All we say is that women should be prudent in wearing their dresses according to the place, culture, and tradition; A Canadian or An US Citizen can run on the roads in US , barely dressed, but when they go to Saudi Arabia or any Part of Muslim world , they are not supposed to wear such dresses as per that country's culture, the same is the case with India.
On the same line your statement
There might be many reasons for one doing this sinful act, but Women Dressing decently according place, time, culture is always prudent to avoid any POSSIBLE , I repeat ANY POSSIBLE Violation of their modesty.
Is jumping to wrong and insensitive conclusion.

Most of the rapes in India is of Indian women who are dressed in Indian Altair.
 
Sangom Sir

My OP is based on what Ali has advised to his daughters; although Ali belongs to a different religion and Dress code is strictly followed, i thought that this advice is equally valid for Women Especially in India.

There might be many reasons for one doing this sinful act, but Women Dressing decently according place, time, culture is always prudent to avoid any POSSIBLE , I repeat ANY POSSIBLE Violation of their modesty.

Shri.PJ,


Believe me, who ever is opposing your OP knows deep down in their heart that the OP and the subsequent posts in line with OP are valid. But, will not openly express it because 1) Men think that by expressing they would be in bad books of today's Pudhumai Penns; 2) Women think that it is a criticism made by men against "all women" and at any cost they should not agree with their points, otherwise of which "all the women" would find themselves guilty even if they dress modestly AND that, Men should not be allowed to point out any single faults with any single women.


That's why, though we come up with many detailed post stating, even modestly dressed girls are raped, females from age 3-80 are raped and that, wearing exposing dress is also one of the reasons of many of the high number of rape crimes, other than seeing on the scree seeing middle/high class live female human wandering around in road in skimpy dress exposing her assets are inducing more of the sexual urge in indiscipline men who go and rape whoever the could possibly get at the moment etc..etc. these members still want to consider them all as insensitive and wrong conclusions.
 
Dear Shri Ravi,

You might have observed by now that PJ sir made the OP, probably after witnessing very scantily clad young women walking/jogging in the mornings in the US, where he and his wife currently are. He might have thought that if such a thing happens in any part of India (from the capital New Delhi to Jhumri Telaiya in Jharkhand) it is likely to provoke an attack of some kind on such girls/women. And that is but true, today. May be Indian men have all become borderline rapists !!;)

But to me it appeared that our expat friends were merely trying to say, "Look! how good a country we are living in, and how bad is India!!". Of course, they expected concurrence but when the response was different, it became an issue to be argued out and won; that was all.

Luckily, (or unluckily) this new member mkrishna100 comes in and says one should not touch small children in Canada; this applies equally in US also. My son had told us that even a continued look or gaze at a baby-in-arms will be considered boorish.

What I found when I was in US about 10 years ago was that some women/girls used to go around in the most skimpy clothes (the "barely there" type) though the majority was adequately dressed according to that country's norms. But it is a country which believes more in the bodily pleasures than in ideals like liberation, moksha, and similar other-worldly ideals which are more important in India. Therefore, women possibly try to show off their allure to the maximum. This, together with the fact that the fair complexion of people there is something like a "cooked" skin, one colleague of mine used to say that the women in the US and other western countries, looked more like "raw mutton"!! Perhaps he had a point in that observation.

May be due to my old age, or may be because of my personal biases and inclination, I used to feel a kind of dislike and also sympathy for those women who are forced to fight against nature and maintain themselves youngish-looking, up and solid (like the guns of Navarone) irrespective of their age; I used to wonder how blessed were our Malayali old women two or more generations ago - they could even walk safely to the evening market to buy goods, holding a walking stick and clad only in dhoti (kerala style mundu) and nothing above their waist!:) There was no rape then as we have today.

Dear Mr. Sangom,

Normally I do not get involved in discussions like this. Your posts used to be logical, well reasoned out. Of late I have noticed that most of your posts are anti west and anti expat Indians. While you are entitled to your views/opinions, this constant needling and never ending tirades against the west and expat Indians is unbecoming of a person of your age and experience. This again is my view/opinion.

I do not know how many of you have been closely associated with rape. I have. I just want to point out that I have been close to someone whose life was ruined because of rape. This person was wearing a madisar and was returning home from a temple. Was waylaid by a group of goondas and was assaulted and raped. Unfortunately got pregnant, gave birth to the child, was shunned by the wonderful TB community and had to live and die as an outcast. All the people making tall claims here about rape and what dress needs to be worn by women, I may point out have no idea what they are talking about.

K. Kumar
 
Dear Mr. Sangom,

Normally I do not get involved in discussions like this. Your posts used to be logical, well reasoned out. Of late I have noticed that most of your posts are anti west and anti expat Indians. While you are entitled to your views/opinions, this constant needling and never ending tirades against the west and expat Indians is unbecoming of a person of your age and experience. This again is my view/opinion.

I do not know how many of you have been closely associated with rape. I have. I just want to point out that I have been close to someone whose life was ruined because of rape. This person was wearing a madisar and was returning home from a temple. Was waylaid by a group of goondas and was assaulted and raped. Unfortunately got pregnant, gave birth to the child, was shunned by the wonderful TB community and had to live and die as an outcast. All the people making tall claims here about rape and what dress needs to be worn by women, I may point out have no idea what they are talking about.

K. Kumar

Wonderful post. That is what I have been arguing in this thread.
 
Dear Mr. Sangom,

Normally I do not get involved in discussions like this. Your posts used to be logical, well reasoned out. Of late I have noticed that most of your posts are anti west and anti expat Indians. While you are entitled to your views/opinions, this constant needling and never ending tirades against the west and expat Indians is unbecoming of a person of your age and experience. This again is my view/opinion.

I do not know how many of you have been closely associated with rape. I have. I just want to point out that I have been close to someone whose life was ruined because of rape. This person was wearing a madisar and was returning home from a temple. Was waylaid by a group of goondas and was assaulted and raped. Unfortunately got pregnant, gave birth to the child, was shunned by the wonderful TB community and had to live and die as an outcast. All the people making tall claims here about rape and what dress needs to be worn by women, I may point out have no idea what they are talking about.

K. Kumar

k.Kumar Sir

sorry to know about that Incident.

I have already stated in my many posts that "there may be many reasons for this sinful act".
May be the women was without proper escort on a secluded ally.



Your argument is like Even when Locked houses are broken and burglars are stealing, Why lock the house?

An open house is vulnerable , that is what we are telling.
 
dear kumar,

this post dedicated to your friend who was traumatized..

priya thambi in facebook has written this wonderful review of a malayalam movie. that the main actor is sharadha of yester years and one of my evergreen favourites (who can forget her in thulaabaaram?). i wonder if anyone here has seen this movie. i would find it very difficult to sit through..

கலிகாலம் (மலையாளம்)

தனிமையில் வாடும் முதியவர்களின் பிரச்னை, விளையாட்டை, இயல்பை தொலைக்க வைத்த கல்விமுறை, பெண்கள் மீதான பாலியல் தொந்தரவு எல்லாவற்றையும் ஒரே படத்தில் சொல்லி விடமுடியும் என்று நிரூபித்திருக்கிறது கலிகாலம் மலையாளத் திரைப்படம்….

55 வயதான தேவகி டீச்சர் (சாரதா) தன் வீட்டில் தனியாக வசிக்கிறார்… திருமணமான அவரது பிள்ளைகள் வேறு ஊர்களில் வசிக்கிறார்கள்… கல்லறைக்குள் இருக்கும் கணவனோடு பேசுவது, அக்கம்பக்கம் குழந்தைகளோடு நேரம் செலவழிப்பது, தன் வயது நண்பர்களோடு உரையாடுவது என அவரது நேரம் போகிறது… பசு பிரசவித்ததை கூட கொண்டாடும் ஒரு மனது அவரிடம் இருக்கிறது…

தங்கள் வேலைகளில் அம்மாவை மறந்து போகும் பிள்ளைகளைத் தேடி அவர்களது வீடுகளுக்கு அடிக்கடி செல்கிறார் தேவகி டீச்சர்… பேரப் பிள்ளைகள் பாட்டியிடம் உயிராக இருக்கின்றன… வீட்டில் இருக்கும் நந்தினி பசு பிரசவிக்க, புதிய பாலில் செய்த இனிப்புகளோடு மங்களூர், பாலக்காடு என ஆளுக்கொரு திசையில் இருக்கும் பிள்ளைகள் வீட்டுக்கு பயணமாகிறார் தேவகி டீச்சர்..

ஒரு வீட்டில் இருந்து இன்னொரு வீட்டிற்கு பேருந்து ஏற்றி விடும் வேலையைச் செய்வதற்கு கூட பிள்ளைகள் சலித்துக் கொள்கிறார்கள்… யாராவது ஒருத்தர் வீட்ல நிரந்தரமா இருந்தா என்ன? என எரிச்சல்படுகிறார்கள்… டீச்சரின் யாரையும் சாராமல் தனித்தியங்கும் குணநலன் அவர்களை எரிச்சல்படுத்துகிறது… இப்படியான பயணத்தின் போது, வணிகமயமாகி விட்ட கல்வி முறையால் தன் பேரப்பிள்ளைகள் மீது திணிக்கப்படும் அழுத்தத்தை உணர்ந்து வருந்துகிறார் தேவகி டீச்சர்.

மகள் வீட்டில் இருந்து மகன் வீட்டிற்கு செல்லும் பேருந்து பயணத்துக்கு இடையில், கேரளாவில் திடீர் வேலைநிறுத்தத்தை ஒரு கட்சி அறிவிக்கிறது… அம்மாவிற்கு என்ன ஆனது எனத் தெரியாமல் பிள்ளைகள் பதறுகிறார்கள்….. மயங்கிய நிலையில் காட்டிற்குள் தேவகி டீச்சர் போலீஸாரால் கண்டெடுக்கப்படுகிறார்…. மருத்துவமனையில் நினைவு திரும்பும்போதெல்லாம், அடக்க முடியாமல் தன்னை மீறி சப்தமெழுப்புவார் தேவகி டீச்சர்… அப்போதுதான் அவர் கூட்டு வன்புணர்வுக்கு ஆளாக்கப்பட்டது பிள்ளைகளுக்கு தெரிய வருகிறது…

ஒரு வயதான பெண்ணை பாலியல் வன்புணர்வு செய்த ஆண்கள் மீது கோபம் வருவதற்கு பதிலாக, தன் அம்மா மீது பிள்ளைகளுக்கு எரிச்சல் வருகிறது… அவரது சுயமாக இயங்கும் தன்மையை கேள்வி கேட்கிறார்கள்… தங்களை அவமானப்படுத்தி விட்டதாக, கோபம் கொள்கிறார்கள்… அம்மாவை யார் பார்த்துக் கொள்வது என சண்டையிடுகிறார்கள்…. இறுதியில் யாருக்கும் தெரியாமல் அம்மாவை ஒரு அறைக்குள் அடைத்து வைக்கிறார்கள்… பேரப் பிள்ளைகளை கூட அருகில் நெருங்காமல் பார்த்துக் கொள்கிறார்கள்… அம்மாவை பார்க்கும் பார்வையில் வெறுப்பு மட்டுமே தெரிகிறது….

ஒரு பெண் எந்த வயதில் வன்புணர்வுக்கு ஆளாக்கப்பட்டாலும் அவளை நம் குடும்பங்கள் இப்படித்தான் நடத்துகின்றன…. குடும்பத்தின், சமூகத்தின் வெறுப்பை சுமப்பதற்கு அவள் தான் பெண்ணாய் பிறந்ததை நொந்து கொள்வதைத் தவிர வேறு வழியில்லை… தேவகி டீச்சரின் நாட்கள் இப்படியே போய்க் கொண்டிருக்க, அவர் கருவுற்றிருப்பதாய் மருத்துவர் சொல்ல.. பிள்ளைகள் இன்னும் எரிச்சல் அடைகிறார்கள்…. அம்மாவை அருவெருப்பாய் பார்க்கிறார்கள்… அபார்ஷன் செய்வது இந்த வயதில் உயிருக்கு ஆபத்தாய் முடியும் என டாக்டர்கள் எச்சரிக்க, அம்மா இறந்தாலும் பரவாயில்லை என பிள்ளைகள் சொல்கிறார்கள்…

பிள்ளைகளின் அவமதிப்புகளை அவ்வளவு நாட்கள் பொறுத்துக் கொண்ட தேவகி டீச்சர், குழந்தையை கலைக்க முடியாது என மறுக்கிறார்… இந்த இடம் தான் படத்தில் என்னை வெகுவாக கவர்ந்த இடம்.. பாலியல் வன்புணர்வால் கிடைத்த குழந்தையை கூட பெற்றுத்தான் ஆக வேண்டுமா என்கிற கேள்வியை இங்கு எழுப்ப முடியாது… ஏனெனில் தன் உயிரைக் கொடுத்து இந்தக் குழந்தையை கலைக்க முடியாது என தேவகி டீச்சர் மறுப்பார்… தான் செய்யாத தவறுக்கு ஏன் சாக வேண்டும் என்கிற கேள்வி மிக ஆணித்தரமானது… மானம், அவமானம் என்கிற கற்பிதங்களை விட தனக்கு உயிர்வாழ உரிமை இருக்கிறது என தேவகி டீச்சர் நம்புகிறார்… ஒரு நொடியில் எல்லோரையும் உதறித்தள்ளிவிட்டு அவர் வயிற்றில் குழந்தையோடு கிளம்புவார். அதைப் பெற்று வளர்க்கவும் செய்வார்… தியேட்டராய் இருந்திருந்தால், இந்த இடத்தில் விசில் அடித்து கொண்டாடி இருப்பேன்…

55 வயதில் ஒரு பெண் அப்படி முடிவெடுப்பதாய் காண்பிப்பதற்கு துணிச்சல் வேண்டும்… இந்த துணிச்சலுக்காகவே நான் மலையாளப் படங்களை அதிகம் விரும்புகிறேன்… பெண்ணின் பார்வையில் படைப்புகள் மலையாளத்தில் மட்டுமே வருவதாக நம்புகிறேன்… இந்த சமூகம் பெண் மீது திணித்து வைத்துள்ள எல்லா நம்பிக்கைகளையும் மலையாளப் படம் தகர்த்தெறியத் தொடங்கி வெகுநாளாகி விட்டது… தமிழில் அப்படியாகத் தேடினால் ‘’பூ’’ படத்தை மட்டுமே சொல்ல முடிகிறது…

கலிகாலம்
இயக்கம் : ரெஜிநாயர்


much thanks to priya thambi for this wonderful review.

saradha.webp
 
Dear Mr. Sangom,

I do not know how many of you have been closely associated with rape. I have. I just want to point out that I have been close to someone whose life was ruined because of rape. This person was wearing a madisar and was returning home from a temple. Was waylaid by a group of goondas and was assaulted and raped. Unfortunately got pregnant, gave birth to the child, was shunned by the wonderful TB community and had to live and die as an outcast. All the people making tall claims here about rape and what dress needs to be worn by women, I may point out have no idea what they are talking about.

K. Kumar

First of all tell me, who is denying the fact that ladies in modest dress, child as young baby as 3 years, old ladies as old as 80 are not getting raped?
 
k.Kumar Sir

sorry to know about that Incident.

I have already stated in my many posts that "there may be many reasons for this sinful act".
May be the women was without proper escort on a secluded ally.



Your argument is like Even when Locked houses are broken and burglars are stealing, Why lock the house?

An open house is vulnerable , that is what we are telling.

Your op post said dont invite any one to your house as it will be burglarized by your guest. No one argues that you must be careful at all time.
 
My Op is only an advice quoted by Mr.Ali to his daughters to dress decently.

If it had stopped at advice of decently dressing there would be no discussion of Rape.
Just because I go to a bar, it does not mean I will be drunk and murdered. Yes, it is prudent to caution one not to drink too much.

Similarly it is prudent to caution someone to dress according to the local norms, or not to go to certain part of world, Or to be back home at certain times. Those are are all valid reason and good judgement, and advice.

But to say that rape occurs because of indecent dressing is down right wrong.
I do not Know what Mr. Ali's authority is but a similar illogical statement was made by Murli Manohar Joshi.
 
Deriving untold conclusions from the post is just ignorance of the person. Nowhere the OP says "rape occurs because of indecent dressing" but only cautions women to dress decently so that POSSIBLE Physical assault is reduced.

If this simple sentence and logic is not understood, I really pity that person.
 
I have now come to this conclusion and stop arguing in this topic with that person who draws his own conclusions from OP

I go by this:Don't argue - YouTube

particularly with that person's post.
 
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k.Kumar Sir

sorry to know about that Incident.

I have already stated in my many posts that "there may be many reasons for this sinful act".
May be the women was without proper escort on a secluded ally.



Your argument is like Even when Locked houses are broken and burglars are stealing, Why lock the house?

An open house is vulnerable , that is what we are telling.

Dear PJ,

I have highlighted a portion of your post. It is this implied blame that you lay on that woman even without knowing the circumstances of the rape, that people are arguing about. In the particular case I referred to the woman was with her family that included 4 male members. She was not alone in a dark secluded ally, inviting men to rape her.

I am sure you don't even realize it. The society and the community makes this assumption automatically. This is what everyone is objecting to. Nobody is denying that you need to dress appropriately based on where you are.

I hope you are able to look at it objectively and understand what people are trying to say rather than taking it personally and feel slighted that they are not agreeing to your point of view.

K. Kumar
 
Sri.Kumar Sir

Your observation "Nobody is denying that you need to dress appropriately based on where you are"

Thank you for this understanding; this is what we are stressing all along.

I am extremely sorry about that women.
 
Your post 157. Incidents seem very close to home. Thanks for posting the write up. It is very heartening to see Malayalam movies taking on subjects that are generally considered taboo by the mainstream media.

K. Kumar
 
The following are the common myths about rape .I have highlighted those that are relevant for the discussion here .I leave it to members to decide for themselves what is right / wrong .
common myths about rape

http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/commonmyths2.php



Here are some of the most common myths that surround rape and sexual assault:

Myth Do not go out alone at any time. Women are most likely to be raped outside, in dark alleyways late at night. This is the best way for a woman to protect herself.

Fact The suggestion of avoiding walking alone, especially at night is a common suggestion to avoiding sexual assault. However, only 9% of rapes are committed by 'strangers'. Women are raped in their homes and in their work places where they are less likely to be believed and even less likely to report. This myth can control movements and restricts freedom. This can feel like women are living under a 'curfew' and that it is a woman's responsibility to be either in or out at certain times. Around 90% of rapes are committed by known men.


[TD="class: dottedline"] [/TD]
Myth Women who are sexually assaulted 'ask for it' by the way they dress or act, rape only happens to young women.

Fact Many women are led to believe that if they are not part of a certain category of women then they are 'safe' from being raped. Women and girls of all ages, classes, culture, ability, sexuality, race and faith are raped. Attractiveness has little significance. Reports show that there is a great diversity in the way targeted women act or dress. Rapists choose women based on their vulnerability not their physical appearance.

Sometimes women see themselves as 'unworthy' or 'undesirable' because of their age or physical appearance and therefore 'safe' from rape. Some men joke or make comments about women's appearances or age to indicate whether she is sexually desirable or available, or as part of their defence in court, saying he thought 'he was doing her a favour', using her appearance or age. Women are raped from the age of three to ninety three. Rape is an act of violence not sex.



[TD="class: dottedline"] [/TD]
Myth Everyone knows when a woman says no, she often means yes. Women secretly want to be raped.
Fact Rape is a terrifying, violent and humiliating experience that no woman wants or asks for. Legally a person has the right to change their mind about having sex at any point of sexual contact. If a sexual partner does not stop at the time a person says no, this is sexual assault. If a person is in a relationship with someone or has had sex with a person before, this does not mean that they cannot be assaulted by that person. Consent must be given every time two people engage in sexual contact. Sex without consent is rape.


[TD="class: dottedline"] [/TD]
Myth The women was drunk / took drugs / had a bad reputation / was hitch hiking / wore tight clothes / seduced him / probably got what she was asking for.

Fact If a person is unconscious or their judgement is impaired by alcohol or drugs, legally they are unable to give consent. Having non-consensual sex with a person who is intoxicated is sexual assault.

Rapists use a variety of excuses to attempt to discredit the women they rape and to justify their crime. No woman asks or deserves to be rape or sexually assaulted. Often a rape case is defined more by the woman's character than by what has happened to her. Newspapers and mass media often refer to women in the roles that they have within society - 'young mother', 'grandmother', 'doctor's wife' etc. If the woman's role or social position is not seen as socially acceptable, she is often held responsible not the rapist. For example, the original 'Jack the Ripper' and Sutcliffe in the late 70's and 80's were glorified by the press. (Jack the ripper has his books, museum, cocktails, computer games and even tourist walks in London named after him where you can visit the places women were murdered!)

The rules imposed on women's behaviour allow rapists to shift the responsibility for rape onto women wherever possible, so that most of the perpetrators who rape are seen as victims of malicious allegations, carelessness or stupidity. There is no other crime in which so much effort is expended to make the victim appear responsible - imagine the character or financial background of a robbery victim being questioned in court.



[TD="class: dottedline"] [/TD]
Myth Women eventually relax and enjoy it. They secretly want to be raped
Fact There is a widely held belief that women enjoy rape or that it is 'just sex at the wrong time, in the wrong place'. Rape is a crime of sexual violence and humiliation which can involve being beaten, physical restraint, the use of knifes and sticks, urination and defecating. Studies have consistently shown that most rapes involve physical force to some degree. Often when a woman is raped she is afraid that she will be killed - rapists often use the threat of killing a woman or her children to ensure her 'submission' and her silence after the attack. Women do not enjoy sexual violence. Victims of murder, robbery and other crimes are never portrayed as enjoying the experience.


[TD="class: dottedline"] [/TD]
Myth The woman did not get hurt or fight back. It could not have been rape.
Fact Men who rape or sexually assault women and girls will often use weapons or threats of violence to intimidate women. The fact that there is no visible evidence of violence does not mean that a woman has not been raped.
Another myth that goes hand in hand with this is that ' rape is a fate worse than death' and this links with the belief that women should fight and resist throughout. Faced with the reality of rape, women make second by second decisions, all of which are directed at minimising the harm done to them. At the point where initial resistance, struggling, reasoning etc have failed, the fear of further violence often limits women's resistance. The only form of control that seems available to women at this point is limiting the harm done to them.


[TD="class: dottedline"]
[/TD]
Myth Men of certain races and backgrounds are more likely to commit sexual violence.
Fact There is no typical rapist. Studies show that men who commit sexual violence come from every economic, ethnic, racial, age and social group. 85% of rapists are men known to their victims.



[TD="class: dottedline"][/TD]
Myth Men who rape or sexually assault are mentally ill or monsters.
Fact Studies have indicated that as few as 5% of men are psychotic at the time of their crimes. Few convicted rapists are referred for psychiatric treatment.


[TD="class: dottedline"] [/TD]
Myth The man was drunk / on drugs / depressed / under stress / wasn't himself.
Fact Men use a variety of excuses to justify the act of rape. There is never an excuse.



[TD="class: dottedline"] [/TD]
Myth Once a man is sexually aroused he cannot help himself. He has to have sex.

Fact Studies show that most rapes are premeditated i.e. they are either wholly or partially planned in advance. All rapes committed by more than one assailant are always planned. Men can quite easily control their urges to have sex - they do not need to rape a woman to satisfy them. Rape is an act of violence - not sexual gratification. Men who rape or sexually assault does so to dominate, violate and control.



[TD="class: dottedline"] [/TD]
Myth Men who rape are sexually frustrated / do not have the opportunity to have sex with a willing partner.

Fact Men who rape are as likely as any other man to be cohabiting or having a significant relationship with a woman. More than one in five women are raped by their partners or their husbands. Women who work as prostitutes or in the sex industry are usually dismissed as rape victims because of bias by the police, criminal justice system, juries and society in general.


[TD="class: dottedline"] [/TD]
Myth Women make up stories about being raped. .
Fact Reporting to the police can be a difficult decision. There are many myths that underlie the belief that women make false and malicious allegations of rape against innocent men. Studies show however, that the allegations of rape that are false are exactly the same as that of any other crime i.e. around 4%


[TD="class: dottedline"] [/TD]
Myth Women cannot rape other women
Fact Only a man can commit the offence of Rape [Sec 1 (1) SOA 2003] as the penetration has to be with a penis. However, both women and men may experience rape. If the penetration is with something other than a penis, then the offence is assault by penetration. See Rape and the Law section.
The majority of sexual assaults are committed by men against women, but anyone can be sexually assaulted and emotional, physical and sexual abuse does happen in same sex relationships. Often when women are assaulted by other women they fear they will not be believed. It is important to realise that women who are assaulted by other women are able to access support and are believed
 
Dear Mr. Sangom,

Normally I do not get involved in discussions like this. Your posts used to be logical, well reasoned out. Of late I have noticed that most of your posts are anti west and anti expat Indians. While you are entitled to your views/opinions, this constant needling and never ending tirades against the west and expat Indians is unbecoming of a person of your age and experience. This again is my view/opinion.

I do not know how many of you have been closely associated with rape. I have. I just want to point out that I have been close to someone whose life was ruined because of rape. This person was wearing a madisar and was returning home from a temple. Was waylaid by a group of goondas and was assaulted and raped. Unfortunately got pregnant, gave birth to the child, was shunned by the wonderful TB community and had to live and die as an outcast. All the people making tall claims here about rape and what dress needs to be worn by women, I may point out have no idea what they are talking about.

K. Kumar

Shri Kumar sir,

I do not think I have lost my ability to be logical, etc., but the only change is that my views on some topics may not be to the liking of those whom you denote by expat Indians; I have a certain amount of opposition to the culture of the west being blindly copied by our people.

My view has been that in India rapes do not happen just like that - without rhyme or reason. Once the rape takes place, the latest trend is that it is viewed as a horrendous crime done to/on the victim and all people ask for the rapists' head to roll down. The law also has been changed to some extent to favour such a course. So far, however, the courts of law were more sensible and used to give some weightage to the rape victim's past history, the circumstances of the crime, etc. I feel all such factors do count.

You and I cannot know the mind or the psychology of the rapists just as we cannot know about the psychology of murderers, psychopaths/sociopaths, even simple housebreakers; hence it is futile for us to argue on those areas. What our centuries' old experience has taught us is that, as a general rule, women have to be on their guard to save themselves from molestation and/or rape. The OP here is just one advice of similar caution.

Women today want, in their fervour for women's empowerment and so on, that they should be free to do anything they feel like but that they should not be molested or raped, etc. Since our constitution provides such freedom our expat friends and those from the west, feel that this type of a situation must come into place just as soon as they write their opinion in this forum.

What people like me are trying to point out is that such a stage has not yet come in most parts of India. (Chain snatching is a very common occurrence here in Trivandrum. So womenfolk are very very careful and do not wear more than the normal Thali and its golden chain; even with this they do not go to the nearby temple after sunset if the road is comparatively lonely or if there is a power-cut. Even during daytime, they are careful not to walk if there is any suspicious looking person standing on the road inside our colony.)

I suppose you will agree that a rapist is induced to perform the rape, and not trained to do it, like boys being trained as pick-pockets. Scanty dressing by women will add to such inducements and may increase the incidence of rape. India is not yet safe to practise the western mores, just as Canada is not yet progressed enough to allow a third person to touch a child.

I express my heartfelt sympathies for that "Madisar Mami" who got raped, but I feel there must be some special circumstances and reasons for "a group of goondas" to assault and rape her. Perhaps you can think about this more deeply; it need not be her fault and may even be some minor offence caused to a powerful local man (say, money lender who was not repaid) taking vengeance on a brahmin woman. BTW, if the incident happened in a road with normal traffic why did not anyone at least shout or call the police? Such questions will also arise. It is therefore not correct to say that since a Madisar mami herself was raped, dress is of no relevance and women may now go around in just bikini & bra only, or even without those (in either case, I think it will be a horrible sight and even the die-hard rapists may become swamijis!!).
 
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Shri Kumar sir,

I do not think I have lost my ability to be logical, etc., but the only change is that my views on some topics may not be to the liking of those whom you denote by expat Indians; I have a certain amount of opposition to the culture of the west being blindly copied by our people.

My view has been that in India rapes do not happen just like that - without rhyme or reason. Once the rape takes place, the latest trend is that it is viewed as a horrendous crime done to/on the victim and all people ask for the rapists' head to roll down. The law also has been changed to some extent to favour such a course. So far, however, the courts of law were more sensible and used to give some weightage to the rape victim's past history, the circumstances of the crime, etc. I feel all such factors do count.

You and I cannot know the mind or the psychology of the rapists just as we cannot know about the psychology of murderers, psychopaths/sociopaths, even simple housebreakers; hence it is futile for us to argue on those areas. What our centuries' old experience has taught us is that, as a general rule, women have to be on their guard to save themselves from molestation and/or rape. The OP here is just one advice of similar caution.

Women today want, in their fervour for women's empowerment and so on, that they should be free to do anything they feel like but that they should not be molested or raped, etc. Since our constitution provides such freedom our expat friends and those from the west, feel that this type of a situation must come into place just as soon as they write their opinion in this forum.

What people like me are trying to point out is that such a stage has not yet come in most parts of India. (Chain snatching is a very common occurrence here in Trivandrum. So womenfolk are very very careful and do not wear more than the normal Thali and its golden chain; even with this they do not go to the nearby temple after sunset if the road is comparatively lonely or if there is a power-cut. Even during daytime, they are careful not to walk if there is any suspicious looking person standing on the road inside our colony.)

I suppose you will agree that a rapist is induced to perform the rape, and not trained to do it, like boys being trained as pick-pockets. Scanty dressing by women will add to such inducements and may increase the incidence of rape. India is not yet safe to practise the western mores, just as Canada is not yet progressed enough to allow a third person to touch a child.

I express my heartfelt sympathies for that "Madisar Mami" who got raped, but I feel there must be some special circumstances and reasons for "a group of goondas" to assault and rape her. Perhaps you can think about this more deeply; it need not be her fault and may even be some minor offence caused to a powerful local man (say, money lender who was not repaid) taking vengeance on a brahmin woman. BTW, if the incident happened in a road with normal traffic why did not anyone at least shout or call the police? Such questions will also arise. It is therefore not correct to say that since a Madisar mami herself was raped, dress is of no relevance and women may now go around in just bikini & bra only, or even without those (in either case, I think it will be a horrible sight and even the die-hard rapists may become swamijis!!).


Very well said, Shri Sangom, along with your hilarious concluding note.. ;)

Hats off to you for your strength/energy to make such detailed and lengthy posts
, at your age of 76, to explain a very simple thing that one should understand on his/her own.
 
I have now come to this conclusion and stop arguing in this topic with that person who draws his own conclusions from OP

I go by this:Don't argue with idiots - YouTube

particularly with that person's post.

Mr. Kumar and others too have to same conclusion from the op.
No need to come down to name calling, just because you are unable to put your pov.
Actually I agree that your advice is well placed, except for the conclusion of women being raped.
Just because you have a jalara group does not make your opinion as the only correct opinion.
Take care I have no personal animosity towards you. My post #2 was for you to change your initial OP.
 
Shri Kumar sir,


I express my heartfelt sympathies for that "Madisar Mami" who got raped, but I feel there must be some special circumstances and reasons for "a group of goondas" to assault and rape her. Perhaps you can think about this more deeply; it need not be her fault and may even be some minor offence caused to a powerful local man (say, money lender who was not repaid) taking vengeance on a brahmin woman. BTW, if the incident happened in a road with normal traffic why did not anyone at least shout or call the police? Such questions will also arise. It is therefore not correct to say that since a Madisar mami herself was raped, dress is of no relevance and women may now go around in just bikini & bra only, or even without those (in either case, I think it will be a horrible sight and even the die-hard rapists may become swamijis!!).

You are just proving my point. Your advice to me to think deeply implies that she or her family invited this trouble. Why the people in the street didn't help/ call the police? Ask them, the family doesn't know. They were too busy trying to avert a disaster. The husband and the lady, spent their entire life torturing themselves as to what they could have done differently that could have prevented the incident. The child spent the entire childhood shunned by relatives and looked upon as some weird creature and being subjected to taunts and insults. I can tell you with 100 % certainty that her scantily worn dress was not the cause.

I am surprised to see flippant comments from a person who looks at things objectively. You make flippant comments about women's clothes, sitting in the comfort/security of your own home. I see that you have admirers for these comments too. It is crass and insensitive. I did not see one post saying that you should wear a bra and bikini and walk around, other than yours.

If people haven't got the point after all these posts, they are never going to get it. It is futile to discuss any further.

K. Kumar
 
Sri.Kumar Sir

What do you expect us to say other than Sorry for the lady?
You expect us to say that there is no use wearing any cloths since even after wearing Madisar a women got raped?

We only have a word of caution for women to wear decently, the chances of her being violated might be less; having said this , we know as well you also know, there are many reasons for one to commit this sin,not necessarily based on dress.

once again I express my shock and dismay at what had happened.
 
You are just proving my point. Your advice to me to think deeply implies that she or her family invited this trouble. Why the people in the street didn't help/ call the police? Ask them, the family doesn't know. They were too busy trying to avert a disaster. The husband and the lady, spent their entire life torturing themselves as to what they could have done differently that could have prevented the incident. The child spent the entire childhood shunned by relatives and looked upon as some weird creature and being subjected to taunts and insults. I can tell you with 100 % certainty that her scantily worn dress was not the cause.

I am surprised to see flippant comments from a person who looks at things objectively. You make flippant comments about women's clothes, sitting in the comfort/security of your own home. I see that you have admirers for these comments too. It is crass and insensitive. I did not see one post saying that you should wear a bra and bikini and walk around, other than yours.

If people haven't got the point after all these posts, they are never going to get it. It is futile to discuss any further.

K. Kumar

Mr. Kumar just you say, "it seems a lost Cause" to expect these people to understand how insensitive their conclusions for the rape victims.

Then again these people also feel that domestic violence is brought upon women by women's behavior.
 
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Dear PJ,

Your post #173. I accept your sympathies.

However I would like to ask you one question. Did I ever mention that women should not wear any clothes or walk around in bras/bikinis?

I was just trying to make the point that repeated assertions by men asking ladies to dress decently, trivializes the horror of "rape". As you mention in your second paragraph, rape happens for various reasons and men need to be sympathetic to victims who have undergone the torture. No amount of reading or anything a man can do will make a man understand the trauma a woman undergoes after "rape". I have had dealings with first hand narrations and to some extent I can recognize the trauma. You, a man in 70s, I thought, would understand this better than some of the younger members.

This topic is very close to my heart and that's why I posted. Normally I do not participate in these kind of societal discussions because I find they normally generate more heat than light :-)

K. Kumar
 
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