Integration with the rest of the Tamil Tribes

[happyhindu]

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Dear Sapr,

Dear Happy,

You have a valid point..But when we look around the posts elsewhere, or look at what's in the minds of the younger generation, there is definitely a sense of alienation... Sadest part is,these generations have much later to AnnaDurai regimes.. Even their fathers would have born much later to Anti-Brahminism era/EVR.. Wonder how the difference was created in their minds.

It probably came about in the minds of some youngsters because they were raised in the time period when 'claims' made in the past became thought of as things that really existed. They thot they were involved in things that most probably they were not involved in. Same goes for NBs. They thought 'claims' of the past really existed, they though they were so-called oppressed and suppresed in reality.


This is a generic feeling ,which Im expressing, is based what I observed, may not 100% true.Thats why I requested Shri.Kujuppu to start this thread. I thought, there would be bombardment of posts, like how it was in 'Whyimhindu' thread.. But not takers for two weeks, until I sneaked in. That gives me feel, people are not intested to talk about Integration..

It cud also be because people think integration already exists....

Or lets take the recent redisigning of the forum.. The TAMIL AUM didnt come automatically from the heart.. I think it was not there since day 1, until Shri.Kunjuppu/TBS pointed out.

I wonder was it really necessary to see any '"difference" b/w devnagari aum and tamil aum in the first place...

Somewhere else in this forum Shri.Kujuppu rightly said, '' Sri-lankan issue, we missed a great opportunity to win the confidence of Tamil tribes"....What a thoughtful point... Someone may quickly shoot back, 'Are you asking me to Support a terrorist?''' A way of disgressing without understanding the core theme..

Please read this: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Child-soldiers-fight-LTTE-ghosts/articleshow/4694380.cms Yes ltte was and is a terror outfit and i will not accept any connection b/w "using" the srilanka issue with TBs or any civilian tamils with anything.

In the forthcoming posts, lets discuss the opportunities/action plan for this integration.

 

[sapr333]

Dear H.H,

>>>>I wonder was it really necessary to see any '"difference" b/w devnagari aum and tamil aum in the first place...>>>

This forum is all about TAMIL Brahmins right!! Btw, there is one peculiar trait with Tamilians,they had accomodated all languages people inside, whole heartedly.. The important trait is the 'Emphasis on Tamil spoken language'.. Any person is accomodated well, provided if he speaks Tamil.. But for a person to be called as Malayalee, one needs to be born to Malayalee parents, but not because he speaks Malayalam. Above all, Tamilians affinity is more towards 'Tamil Language' not towards the 'Race'.. Most of the tamils are fighting amongst like crabs'...

BTW anti-Hindi movement is one of EVR's first achievement.. EVR supported English but opposed Hindi.. And I think he forecasted the future.. English is paying results..Absence of hindi is no longer seen as a handicap in the 21st century

>>>Yes ltte was and is a terror outfit and i will not accept any connection b/w "using" the srilanka issue with TBs or any civilian tamils with anything.>>

Hey, no one is saying LTTE is not a terrorist group.. The point I was trying to convey, is, TB's failed to join the 'majority sentiments' (I stress the point emotion and sentiments) of the people during this recent past months, and it was a good opportunity missed, to get the goodwill of the mainland tribes.. Thats what Shri.Kujuppu is conveying..

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sapr,

Dear H.H,

>>>>I wonder was it really necessary to see any '"difference" b/w devnagari aum and tamil aum in the first place...>>>

This forum is all about TAMIL Brahmins right!! Btw, there is one peculiar trait with Tamilians,they had accomodated all languages people inside, whole heartedly.. The important trait is the 'Emphasis on Tamil spoken language'.. Any person is accomodated well, provided if he speaks Tamil.. But for a person to be called as Malayalee, one needs to be born to Malayalee parents, but not because he speaks Malayalam. Above all, Tamilians affinity is more towards 'Tamil Language' not towards the 'Race'.. Most of the tamils are fighting amongst like crabs'...

I agree with you...true, its about tamil brahmins.
As regards youe point of malayalam, i have a section of family in present day kerala at the tn border areas. Most of them merged into the malayalees in the past years. However, i hear that even in the past they were not treated as outsiders. Malayalees too are an accomodating people..Tamils are a very united lot outside of india i suppose, they are a very cohesive population in places like malaysia.

BTW anti-Hindi movement is one of EVR's first achievement.. EVR supported English but opposed Hindi.. And I think he forecasted the future.. English is paying results..Absence of hindi is no longer seen as a handicap in the 21st century

>>>Yes ltte was and is a terror outfit and i will not accept any connection b/w "using" the srilanka issue with TBs or any civilian tamils with anything.>>

Hey, no one is saying LTTE is not a terrorist group.. The point I was trying to convey, is, TB's failed to join the 'majority sentiments' (I stress the point emotion and sentiments) of the people during this recent past months, and it was a good opportunity missed, to get the goodwill of the mainland tribes.. Thats what Shri.Kujuppu is conveying..

Am sorry sapr, i do not agree with you. Ltte got doomed because of its own doing (misuse of its own people), please read the link i had passed on in the previous post. I do not think tehre was any 'majority sentiment' amongst indian tamils, to be involved in any issue of lanka, except for the part raked up by our politicians for their own political mileage. And i do not agree with Kunjuppu-ji that the lankan issue was an opportunity of any kind to create 'integration'.

 

[sapr333]

Dear Sapr,

Dear Happy,

Im bit finding difficult to articulate that particular point about "Sri Lankan Issue''' ... Deep in my heart, I know its a valid point/suggestion

Would request Shri.Kujuppu to share his point, in his own mirthful writing style thrusting the the right message..

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Happy,

Im bit finding difficult to articulate that particular point about "Sri Lankan Issue''' ... Deep in my heart, I know its a valid point/suggestion

Would request Shri.Kujuppu to share his point, in his own mirthful writing style thrusting the the right message..

thank you sapr.

unfortunately, the sri lankan issue is fraught with tragedy, starting from the day the british left ceylon. no place for mirth here

i think, most of tamil brahmins, if they know the full story, would have seen many similarities to our own fall from government grace over the past 50 years or so.

it is also a touchy issue here or anywhere, as for the last 3 years, ltte and tamils became synonimous, as far as the lankan tamils were concerned, whereas for the common tamil the lines blurred, in the eyes of the tamil brahmin press, (cho, ram, vikatan, dinamalar) became even more distinct.

till finally, nobody but us, were condemning the ltte, and all our support for the plight of the civilians were drowned in the cacophony raised by those drums of war.

we, as tamil brahmin, if our loathing for ltte was so overwhelming, would have played good politics, keeping our mouth shut, re ltte, and at the same time, taking active measures ie collecting funds and medicines for the civilians.

it might well augur, for the so called public voices of our community, to remember, that we as a community, have only permanent interests. not permanent friends. or permanent enemies for that matter. their behaviour consistently, appears to me, one of ignoring the realities of today's politics, and instead calling for some self defined higher plane of thought - often, to me appears to be cutting my nose to spite my face.

the sad fact, is majority of brahmins outside of tamil nadu, only listen to cho or read vikatan. i find, as a result, their views equally warped. so sad.

the resultant political naivete is appalling, in my view. why don't we care about how others perceive us? right now, i think, the majority of tamil believe that the tamil brahmins, are pro singala. who would like to live among quislings in their midst?

i feel, instead, we were shedding crocodile tears for some far off kashmiri pandits while our neighbours were sinking in a mud hole. charity, after all, does it not begin at home?

once again, we are beating to a different pulse, to the rest of tamildom. let us keep in mind, this may be in harmony with the tunes called in delhi. but delhi would abandon us at an instance, if it would suit their purpose.

... and we will be left with the proverbial empty bag.

i have tried to keep this post mild, only because, it appears to cause immense angers to explode and the last thing i want, is an exchange of vitriol. no purpose in that.

que sera sera.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sri Kunjuppu ji,

till finally, nobody but us, were condemning the ltte, and all our support for the plight of the civilians were drowned in the cacophony raised by those drums of war.

Thankyou for clarifying that the support was for the civilians, not for ltte. The civilians paid the brunt of being caught in b/w the cross fire - dealing with racist sinhalese politicians and their affiliates on one hand, and being abused by ltte on the other hand.

i feel, instead, we were shedding crocodile tears for some far off kashmiri pandits while our neighbours were sinking in a mud hole. charity, after all, does it not begin at home?

Sir, Kashmir is an integral part of India. Sri Lanka is an other country. Yes sir, charity does begin at home.

In terms of homeland security, kashmir is a danger to us. Sri Lanka was no danger to us.

Yes i do find some of the government's policies ridiculous -- like giving money for hurricane katrina to the US of A, filling up the coffers of cash strapped universities in the uk, etc...all when our own country is starved for development...

 

[anandb]

I have been reading this thread with interest and for a change HH would be happy that I agree with him on this issue on certain points. Honestly I think integration is in the mind. I don't believe inter-caste marriages for the sake of it or political gimmicks like sama panthi bhojanam will bring about integration. If love happens between members of two different castes I am not opposed to it but am not for marrying into another caste just to integrate. Here I agree with HH that marriage should not be used as a tool for integration. I have read in ancient times of the varna system there was pretty good harmony between the different jathis because everyone respected what the other person did for occupation. In fact crossover to another jathi was not permitted because everyone was proud of what they are doing and at the same time respected the other jathi as well. So even if a brahmin by mistake or intentionally tries to step into a Shudra colony, the shudra himself would prevent that. The brahmin may proudly think he is the "uyarntha jathi" but possibly the shudra might be thinking how some other jathi can step into their territory. So the shudra felt proud about his jathi because he felt he is also performing an important role in the soceity. Somewhere down the line everything got messed up and we find ourselves in the present situation. For me true integration can arise only if one respects what the other person does and not think that it is something less than what you do. I always feel that a non-brahmin will respect a brahmin more if he is truly behaving like a brahmin. Just to give a personal example my maternal grandpa was a well respected figure in the area where he lived in Chennai. He was probably the first one to get a B & W tv when the first TV programmes were being beamed in Chennai. Every weekend when it was time to watch the movies, a horde of slum children would be allowed to watch the movie sitting on the floor. I had a lot of such friends among the slum kids and used to be sitting among them watching old tamil movies. My grandpa was well respected by these slum dwellers and used to get invited to all their family weddings. He used to attend them and they would be simply thrilled on seeing him because they knew him as a Sandya doing brahmana. Of course he will never eat at the weddings as he did not eat non-veg. They would never compel him as they knew he will not. Probably he would have some coffee. I saw this as an example of integration. Some may not agree saying he did not eat so how it can be called integration. I think those slum people respected my thattha because of his principles. If he had shed it and sat among them to eat non-veg, they might have been shocked and thought cheaply about him. What made me respect him was he did not shed his brahmin symbols but still had no difference in his mind to allow these people to watch tv or attend their family weddings. When he passed away at 100, the entire slum turned out at his funeral.

So in my opinion, all differences in the mind should be shed and not physical symbols of differences. Like a wise man said, even if you abolish nuclear weapons, man will still fight each other with sticks. So the intention is more important here than mere creation or destruction of physical symbols.

thanks

 

[sapr333]

I don't believe inter-caste marriages for the sake of it or political gimmicks like sama panthi bhojanam will bring about integration. If love happens between members of two different castes I am not opposed to it but am not for marrying into another caste just to integrate. Here I agree with HH that marriage should not be used as a tool for integration.

Dear Anand,

Its a well known fact,that, the Portuguese of Goa used marriage as a tool to integrate with GSB's, whereas the racist Brit's resisted from getting married to Indians (who called us as dogs)....

In the process, Portuguese culture still flourises in Goa, where as 'Anglo's' have now become an extinct species..

Historically, marriage was definitely used as a tool to integrate and win over the confidence of neighbouring societies.. Someone may say, the christians of Spain killed lot of native south americans.. But, still, majority of S.A do speak Spanish now. Yes, Spaniards integrated with them. As shri.Kunjuppu said citing another incidence of 'Iyengarising of a Mudaliar Groom'.

The kings used to get married their daughters to an enemy kings son, just to strike a Peace with him.. The whole of Europe maintained their harmony/stragtegy by getting married their daughters to the enemy king,while exchanging some of their teritories too.. The Chera,Chola,Pandya kings also did this...

Yes, you are free 'not' to believe in integration with the mainstream Tamil Tribe society through marriages.. But, Im not sure, if you would feel comfortable, if, some day, you may not be surprised to find Our own tribes as artifacts in the airconditioned glass houses of 'Louvre Museum' ,seated next in line with Incas/Parsis/Romans, with a grandeur epitaph R.I.P.

Like a a Pride Roman, you may be OK with that situation, but then it deeply pains me..

Sorry, if had put it in a very crude way

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Anand and Sapr,

To me, past is just an interest..Its not something to take pride in, its not something read about to 'set things right', and its impossible to think that past things can apply now, as cultural sensibilities or any such thing.

Therefore if marriages happened in the past as means of integration, then it was events that might have applied to specific situations in the past, to that time period. The current sensibilities, imho, have changed.

Two people who marry for the sake of social integration must be very emotionally immature to think that "i have married, am married and will remain married only for the sake of social integration". What about each one's personal ticks, likes, dislikes, etc. Sometimes, the wife can't even stand a husband snoring. I have seen couples who argue for the silliest of things.

Sure they may produce kids, but its very possible that they will outgrow each other after the whole interest of having to remain married for 'social integration' wanes.

Amongst my ammamma's (grandmum's) siblings and cousins, atleast half of them in that generation married mudaliars (kaikolars, vellalars, agamudaiyars, usually south arcot ones). They were arranged marriages. Later, marriages went back and forth amonsgt their kin. Its very hard to say which was a dominant culture that prevailed, if there was any at all. Even in that generation some people questioned things before accepting it. And people always seemed more interested in making money, as means to progress, than show interest in anything else.

Now you have a generation that questions everything, because blindly following things do not appeal to them. This group is a minority. And the most number of people in this generation are obviously ppl who do not show even an iota of interest in things that are not financially beneficial to them.

What if they are not willing to be iyerized or iyengarized ? What if they are the kind not inclined to do the sandhya or pray regularly? How many people even light the lamp in their prayer everyday these days? they come back home late in the evening, rush in the morning, have other things to complete, they end up praying in the mind or chanting in the train or bus...where on earth does anyone have time to have religion or caste on the mind when they don't even have time for themselves or to pray? And are such people are willing to be brahminized?

i really do not see how a marriage can be used as a tool for social integration of the imaginary kind.

Anand is right...i too wud not have respected his granddad if he were to be joining others in eating non-veg, i wud certainly not have approched him for any prayers to be performed...in my mind ofcourse i tend to apply these things only when for priests, not all...

i think its all about live and let live...

there are cases where brides who marry into brahmin families are not willing to follow some things, the MILs gets a chance to complain that its bcoz the brides are not brahmins, later after they find that brahmin brides are not willing to follow those things either (except in villages perhaps) now, they have nothing left to say..

i guess its about giving each other the space to live as they wish to live...and not having expectations that the groom or bride will be willing to be brahminized after marriage...a lot of people in this generation seem to have their own ideas on religion, etc...

 

[anandb]

Dear Anand,

Its a well known fact,that, the Portuguese of Goa used marriage as a tool to integrate with GSB's, whereas the racist Brit's resisted from getting married to Indians (who called us as dogs)....

In the process, Portuguese culture still flourises in Goa, where as 'Anglo's' have now become an extinct species..

Historically, marriage was definitely used as a tool to integrate and win over the confidence of neighbouring societies.. Someone may say, the christians of Spain killed lot of native south americans.. But, still, majority of S.A do speak Spanish now. Yes, Spaniards integrated with them. As shri.Kunjuppu said citing another incidence of 'Iyengarising of a Mudaliar Groom'.

The kings used to get married their daughters to an enemy kings son, just to strike a Peace with him.. The whole of Europe maintained their harmony/stragtegy by getting married their daughters to the enemy king,while exchanging some of their teritories too.. The Chera,Chola,Pandya kings also did this...

Yes, you are free 'not' to believe in integration with the mainstream Tamil Tribe society through marriages.. But, Im not sure, if you would feel comfortable, if, some day, you may not be surprised to find Our own tribes as artifacts in the airconditioned glass houses of 'Louvre Museum' ,seated next in line with Incas/Parsis/Romans, with a grandeur epitaph R.I.P.

Like a a Pride Roman, you may be OK with that situation, but then it deeply pains me..

Sorry, if had put it in a very crude way

Dear Sapr,

Honestly, you know my stand regarding the Portuguese, Spanish or British. I am no great admirer of these people (the marauding ones of the past) and you may call it a superiority complex but still I do feel proud of my brahminical heritage. So I would probably see a difference in the integration of those nationalities and the integration of brahmins with others. I am not denying the need for integration at all. HH has put it very well and I don't think I can put it in a better way.

I don't think brahminism will become a relic of the past. There are certain physical symbols associated with brahminism. Brahmins were always patrons of art forms like music and dance. There was once the danger of carnatic music getting swamped by film music but one look at the sabhas during December will disprove this. Especially abroad, there are increasing number of brahmins who keep this tradition alive. I don't know how the situation in the west is but certainly in Dubai I can vouch for the fact that a section of the community is keeping these traditions alive. Please do not construe this as a negative comment on the brahmins who are not supposedly interested in these traditions.

My whole point is the brahmin can keep some of his traditions alive but not look down upon other communities and still live amicably with them. I think most of the integration is achieved there. I firmly believe that what we need is unity and not uniformity (not my words but the words of you know who). My humble opinion is we have all been born with differences and learn to accept them but not succumb to these differences to hinder progress. I know your stand is unless physical barriers are torn down progress will not be achieved but honestly I am of the view that communities can live together by respecting each other's traditions and celebrating with them. I think the thing that fascinates foreigners about India is its whole plethora of religions, culture, traditions and festivals. I personally will not want any of these to be lost by trying to make everything uniform and I think cross cultural or cross community marriages is one tool where such a compromise is possible.

Thanks

 

[sapr333]

Dear Anand,

I feel, you dont find inter-caste marriages as an ideal solution, for integration with Tamil Tribes..,.... It seems you are not convinced with my quote on Portuguese integration/appropriation (sadly, you failed to differentiate between the attitudes of Brits Vs Portuguese)..

And you also,suggested here a broad idea that,the communities can live together by respecting each other's traditions and celebrating with them, and that would lead to 'Integration'.. Let me go little deep further..

• Do you think, only because of the disrepect of traditions, this divide has happened?
  
  
• Why on earth an average NB-Hindu should have a disrespect over the traditions of another Hindu -Brahims?
  
  
• So, reservations are no longer a reason for this divide, then!!
  
  
• Importantly, whats your suggestion to make people to respect each one's traditions, so that one can easily integrate with the 'Tamil Tribes'.

 

[sapr333]

Shri.Kunjppu, thanks indeed for the wonderful articulative post about "Srilankan Issue'...Rather, you bailed me out... Btw, I enjoyed the verbatim "augur" in post #30

I thought of sharing this.. TB's supposed to be the 'Great Teachers' definitely failed miserably to capitalise/focus on that profession, which would have been yet another tool for this integration..

In the late 80-90's, when education (both Engg/Schools) was getting more privatised and commericalized during MGR era, no TB ventured in to this..Some one may say, money/business was not a forte of Brahmin, but then, I know very well, in 90's most of Engineering colleges started in mangers/garages as a small enterprise,like a malayalee tea shop. Those who flaunted their talents in the name of IIT's too didnt bother to set up a school, atleast in line with their inborn forte of 'teaching'.

Imagine a situation if there were TB' Engineering colleges/Schools all around the corners of TN, like Convents...Wouldnt that have helped this integeration...

In this context, TB's were pushed to be perceived like Moslems, who also never bothered to educate others/not able to captialze on the academic business.. This is one reason for the poverty/illiteracy among muslims too. Thankfully, TB never fell in to illiteracy.

I would cite here another community, who were no way related to 'Teaching Dharma'.. ie, Jains/Parsis... Though much lesser in population count, they build schools and educated the mass and earned the good will of the society...

S.P Jain Institute stands tall in line with XLRI/IIM.. Forget north,, how come the Vellalars/Nadars/Chettiars who have no iota of 'teaching skills' could establish so many colleges and schools..Down south, never had an anti-brahminic feeling, but its only in south, we dont find any educational institutions run by Brahmins.

Yes, there are few top class schools in Chennai set by TB's, but its no way compared to those educational business empires set by rest of the community.. And the interesting point is, they are not set to cater their communities alone, but open for all, as business, while generating a good-will from the common public..

I saw a thread poping up elsewher few months ago, that TB's should open up school to cater to the poor TB's.. Felt so empathetic with that selfish approach..

I think, the in-born teaching/scholar/advisory skills should be put in action, to help the fellow tribes.. That would definitely help to integrate with the tamil-tribes.

 

[hariharan1972]

I thought of sharing this.. TB's supposed to be the 'Great Teachers' definitely failed miserably to capitalise/focus on that profession, which would have been yet another tool for this integration..

TB's were supposed to be 'Gurus' and not 'Teachers'. Though they may used interchangeably, actually, they are dissimilar.

A Teacher may also teach 'material things' and there would come a point when he has passed on everything that he knew.

A Guru on the other hand has a continual influence on the shishya (society) and warns him whenever course correction is required.

Having said that, i dont think "all brahmins" can be gurus. Infact i would say it is not "restricted" to only brahmins. It is open to anyone who has attained self-realization.

So if you look from a 'professional' point of view, yes, TBs have not capitalized it ; they havent failed miserably ; because they understood that the 'pay back' of being a teacher is too low, they opted for other avenues of employment.

I belong to a family of teachers ; it was only the trio of my father and his 2 brothers who broke the 'tradition' and went on to become govt employees. And certainly only with them the fortunes of the family improved.

In this context, TB's were pushed to be perceived like Moslems, who also never bothered to educate others/not able to captialze on the academic business.. This is one reason for the poverty/illiteracy among muslims too. Thankfully, TB never fell in to illiteracy.

Putting TBs and Muslims together is to put chalk and cheese together. The illiteracy of the Muslims is because they wanted religious non-interference as the only output of governance.

TBs on the other hand, at all times, gave utmost importance to education. In the current milieu, the importance has only increased manifold with the quota system, designed to keep the brahmins at bay.

 

[happyhindu]

A few inputs from my end sapr:

1) Do you think, only because of the disrepect of traditions, this divide has happened?

It has happened due to a combination of factors:

a) Claims: claims of superiority and suppression by various groups, claims of exclusivity without taking into account movement, migration, intermingling, picking up of new occupations, esp in the mughal and post-mughal era.

b) Competitive streak in matters of spiritualism: claims that only certain ways of doing things or certain rituals are 'superior', stories interpolated to help establish temples, or to create superiority or benefit for one group, inability of various groups to see that suppression as professed by the scriptures did not exist in reality.

c) Every varna that was involved in traditional occupations came out of it and competed for secular jobs in the new colonial and post-colonial era.

d) At a later stage, political interference in matter of religion / faith.

2) Why on earth an average NB-Hindu should have a disrespect over the traditions of another Hindu -Brahims?

The political consciousness of some non-brahmins and tall claims of some brahmins created the ill-will, which exists in some pockets amongst some people.

The average hindu, on the other hand, does not disrespect the traditions of brahmins. Every wedding ceremony is conducted by a brahmin, and so are the ceremonies of naming a baby, death rituals and so on..for NBs the brahmin is a part of their own system.

3) So, reservations are no longer a reason for this divide, then!!

Reservations are based on the political caste system, and can be a reason to cause divide among young people competing for the same admissions.

4) Importantly, whats your suggestion to make people to respect each one's traditions, so that one can easily integrate with the 'Tamil Tribes'.

a) Live and let live. Accept each one's desire to live life his own way, without expecting to brahmanise or de-brahmanise the other person, either because of marriage or because of political consciousness.

integration exists if we are willing to see its already present existence.

In terms of betterment, we often tend to think of missed opportunities, like it cud have been this way or that way. Perhaps it wud be a better idea to leave behind the past and think of the future, about what can be done in the present for the future..

 

[hariharan1972]

i was about to respond to the post script of sapr333 and just realized that he has edited it.

still couple of thoughts ;

with due respect to the experiences that you referred to, i dont think there's anything "laughable" about what anandb shared about his grandfather.

i am of the view that whatever anandb shared, is a poignant tale of how someone successfully managed retaining his principles / culture without inflicting any offence on anyone.

he lived by his principles and for his principles and there's nothing dishonourable about it. infact, in anandb's grandfather i see a rajaji - a man who was steadfast in his principles and unwavering in his committment to unity.

also, i find it extremely funny that you think that a 'marxist story' could make 'anandb's story' laughable. that's a new one for me !

communism, marxism, leninism and the other isms are the bane of the world. they are, in my view, for the hare-brained. i personally feel that the maker decided to create these 'communist creatures' only to distinguish between under-developed and developed cognitive abilities.

the world is surviving not because of communism but "despite communism". puhlease.

 

[sapr333]

Dear Hari,

In what way you think, "Educational domain', would be helpful for the integration with the TamilTribes?

Live and let live. Accept each one's desire to live life his own way

Dear HH, in my view, "Live and Let live' is a lower moral ideology.. You may find this idiom convenient to quote, while protecting every ones individualistic culture, in the large perspective, it reflects the other way..

ie,You are only letting him live, at your mercy, as if you are a bad boy, but not now.. This ideology can also be seen as cause, for letting the poor brahmin remain poor, without taking any active effort to bring him up..

Sorry, we are trangressing from the core topic...

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sapr,

Dear HH, in my view, "Live and Let live' is a lower moral ideology.. You may find this idiom convenient to quote, while protecting every ones individualistic culture, in the large perspective, it reflects the other way..

ie,You are only letting him live, at your mercy, as if you are a bad boy, but not now.. This ideology can also be seen as cause, for letting the poor brahmin remain poor, without taking any active effort to bring him up..

if a man follows his own culture, does it mean he is doing it at the mercy of someone else ? and how does this become 'bad' or make anyone a 'badboy'?

and how does it let someone remain poor? on the contrary i think this poverty can be removed if every hindu worldwide spends just one rupee a day for his religion..the question is - is he willing to do it?

instead, the NB may ask, what benefit do i get from it? he may be willing to do it, if prayers help him in some way, either health, wealth, job, or relationships, etc...now there a few probs in that arena, bcoz there are disillusioned people who say prayers are not begetting results as they as supposed to beget. But then that's a totally diff topic..

i still think that both, the sense of superiority and the sense of inferiority, exists in the mind..

Sorry, we are trangressing from the core topic...

 

[hariharan1972]

In what way you think, "Educational domain', would be helpful for the integration with the TamilTribes?

I am not sure I understand the question.

I actually dont share the conviction of the 'thread initiator' that the TBs have to be 'integrated with the rest of the tamil tribes'.

TBs speak the same language ; except for non-vegetarian, share the same palate ; worship same gods ; celebrate same festivals ; feel alike about the political system ; read same magazines ; cry for the same serials - kolangal et all ;

there's so much in common.

ofcourse there are bound to be cultural differences but that's only natural.

i dont suppose you want, in the name of integration, you would want a "chicken puliyodharai" or a "kozhi vathakozhambu".

the different cultures are something to be celebrated and not ridiculed at.

the biggest inhibiting factors today are the dravidian politicians. the personal fans of the egregious dravidian politicians may not concede this but i dont think the tbs have to suck up to them.

thankfully, the tamil populace, even those who vote for the dravidian politician dont share their contempt for the tbs.

the dravidian leaders major grouse was that they couldnt get a fair skinned brahmin girl to marry them and so almost all of them ended up having a fair skinned brahmin girl as their concubine. thus unwittingly even they had done their "bit" on "integration"

 

[hariharan1972]

read an interesting article yesterday :

"Early Human Culture Thrived in Crowds"

http://www.livescience.com/culture/090604-human-behavior-evolved.html

and this is my take on that : (think this is the relevant thread, else wd request moderator to shift it)


http://www.livescience.com/culture/090604-human-behavior-evolved.html

Endless chatter and noisy clatter
Paving way for us to be human
Human network it was which taught
While in Rome, be a Roman

We needed each other
To straighten our vertebra
Even if all that we spoke
Was meaningless abracadabra

Together we built, body of knowledge
Hunting, Fishing or making porridge
Without remorse we shared the skill
A way was born, coz we had the will

We gaped endlessly at the sun
Timing the shadows was such a fun
Thriving on each other, reason why
We battled the nature and we won

Not threatened by each other’s presence
Incubating ideas by sharing, the essence
To Take the human spirit forward
We were not taught at Yale or Harvard

We made fire and made the wheel
Civilization progressed on even keel
Our success depended on each other
Nothing between us not even ether

Plants provided food, springs water
When I had more, I’d willingly barter
We were all one, kith and kin
To think otherwise was such a sin

Contented bosom with life so nice
Till we found the satan, avarice
With that came three main vice
Religion, caste and money to entice

We Lost unity, forgot our blessing
Doubts in mind, we ended up guessing
Shut ourselves becoming incommunicado
Injuring one another became bravado

We moved apart and were closeted
With ourselves we became besotted
Evolution stopped, rapidly we went down
Basics forgotten ; we were not meant to be alone

 

[happyhindu]

Sapr,

What does integration mean to you?

Do you expect that intermarriage will cause cultural closeness...instead the reverse may also happen, after a few generations ppl may stop following 'brahmanical' things bcoz they find it inapplicable to their times or occupation or just unnecessary.

Lemme give you an example. My great grand father was from Srirangam. His father did not undergo upanayanam though his father's elder brother (uncle) did. My great grand father studied and moved to madras to work in the brit govt. His children did not undergo upanayanam either. But the children of that elder brother (uncle) did. Subsequently, that uncle's kids who moved to madras also gave it up. Some had inter-married, some had not, but almost all gave up their old practices.

In what was considered 'the new cultural milieu' at that time, the only thing that people until my grandparents' generation followed was samasrayanam. Nobody in my parents' generation sought samasrayanam. And in the current (my) generation, all practices are completely forgotten.

So, are you going to judge ppl by their adherence to ritualism? Do you think social or cultural practices cause integration of any sort?

 

[happyhindu]

Hariharan-ji, that was fantastic...am floored sir.

 

[sapr333]

Sapr,

What does integration mean to you?

Dear HH,

many of us here, may not have born in that times of TB-alienation, and hence we may not have experienced about what happened in the past. Our grand fathers may not have shared this story to us..Thats why, your posts gives a tone of 'Fence Sitter' (No hard feelings)..

I bit learned about it, through my naturally oppositive views, by participating different types of forums, and bit of google readings about the era's of 1930 to till date, taking a judicial/social stand on both the sides.. And with that, I have developed a deep conviction (not self centred though) about the importance of the point and depth/tone of his message "Tamil Integration'..

As said in one of my earlier posts, 'Though Jews flourished elsewhere across Atlantic, their heart and eyes were always on the small piece of arid desert land called Israel..

May be, you should have a re-run through all the posts ofShri.Kunjuppu..

 

[happyhindu]

Perhaps a fence sitter yes, but am wondering how come ritualism is seen as a point of whether or not people are 'integrated'..am still wondering where is the disintegration in the first place (apart from claims, and political stuff that is)...

are you and your brothers following the same profession? if not, then are you considering each other as 'different' just because each of you follows a diff way of life (as it suits your profession), or lives in diff places and eats diff kinds of food.

perhaps your bro is eating salmon every other week and you are not, perhaps your bro likes to wake up early everyday to do some gardening (like some ritual), so do you both bcome different?

 

[sapr333]

Dear Sapr,instead, the NB may ask, what benefit do i get from it?

Dear HH,

You are right.. So far we have not discussed about the onus/role of NB's in this integration.. May be will discuss that in the forthcoming days.

The rules remain the same
It still takes two to tango

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sapr,

i think i was not clear and you misunderstood the context.

what i meant was that people generally become disillussioned that even after doing so many prayers they are still not getting results from it.

Either maybe it is kaliyuga and therefore they have high expectations, or they fail to see that people somewhere still have to undergo hardships someplace or the other; or there is this angle that priests try to accomodate many clients in one auspicious time slot and hurry thru the rituals without doing them properly..