Integration with the rest of the Tamil Tribes

[renganathan]

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integration with other tamil tribes.

wonderful writeup.before integration with other tamil tribes,let all TBs stand united.this is the need of hour.iyer. iyengar,vadakalai,thenkalai classifications are not at all needed.let all the brahmine folk help each other.then we will be reckoned as a force.next extend your love towards other tribers.we are still respected and loved by our fellow tamil tribes here.without brahmins there is no dravidian parties in tamil nadu.if all bramins vacate tamil nadu dravidian parties shall follow suit.more than anybody else dps,know it better.if we help the poor brahmin brotheren,then our community shall be strong enough to stand up to any odds.

 

[kunjuppu]

periyar

If I had trepiditions starting this thread, then I should have even more dread re writing about periyar. But, I am encouraged by the fact, that in keeping with the intent of the thread, there has been only wise and calm discussions.

The fireworks, we have consigned currently to the booze thread, and let it remain that way.

No discussion about tamil brahmins’ place in current tamil society will be complete without periyar’s impact on us. I call e.v.ramasami naicker, ‘periyar’ not particularly out of any reverence or regard, but simply because it is how he is addressed by an overwhelming majority of tamils.


Periyar, otherwise had an immense influence on tamils. he successfully prodded a rather lethargic and backward looking tamil community, and fired up their zeal to mobilize and modernize. This is something, that by and large, an overwhelming majority in tamil nadu (except maybe the Brahmins) agree and feel that they owe him something. I agree with the rest of the tamil tribes.

Incidentally periyar’s models for improvement were the tamil Brahmins and the Christians. He exhorted the other tamil tribes to educate their daughters, pay no dowry, simplify wedding rituals, small families, do away with supersitition and his ultimate clarion call – to demolish what he termed as ‘brahminic hinduism’.

To separate Brahmins from brahminism, I think is wordsmithing in a canny sense to suit one’s purpose. Except on rare occasions, periyar intermixed Brahmins and brahminism, to mean the same thing, even though many a times he vehemently denied it.

From our viewpoint, I think, the biggest effect on us, the periyar effect was an attack on our ego. Till then recently, even under Justice Party rule, we as a community, commanded respect.


We might have been poor, but we lived our poverty with dignity. When that robe of dignity was torn away from us, we felt socially raped, and as a result resorted to a communal anger, which even today, long after periyar has gone, boils within many of us to a frothing rage.

I understand that and accept it, even though, personally, I have been able to detach myself from many of periyar’s ravings, and somewhat focus on his goals.


When distilled and shorn of rhetoric, most of periyar's teachings, barring anti hinduism, may be something that we can reconcile as we ourselves practise it to various extent these days.


To sum up, our anger at periyar, i think, is more a reflection of our failure to deal with him on an effective political level. We never recognized this as a political issue. We ignored it and the little goblin ended up being a giant bhootham, that ultimately swallowed us.

Even though I grew up in a majority Christian and non Brahmin neighbourhood, which was pro DMK all along, personally I have never felt the heat of periyar’s flares. In fact, he was a nobody within my radar, even though I was politically active and socially involved during my teens.


So, by and large, while i am indifferent to periyar, i cannot help but admire the impact of this single man over the whole tamil society. His imprint is everywhere in Tamil Nadu's thinking of today, whether we agree with it or not. I think there is no other personality in india, barring perhaps Ambedkar, whose thoughts have swayed a whole society to change the way it views itself.

A couple years ago, as a rejoinder in another forum, I read up periyar’s teaching.

Barring the belief in God and adherence to what I believe as Hinduism, by and large, periyar’s teaching is passé to me now. They sound no more revolutionary than Vivekananda or Nehru, all purveyors of revolutionary thoughts during their heyday.

Today, we tamil brahmins think and live, i feel, as a community far more radical than periyar envisioned. one can only imagine, if our grandfathers visited us and compared their mores to that of ours. enough said.

So periyar, in my view, was a man of those times.

Periyar, himself, while opining on every topic under the sun, cautions the reader to treat him with a grain of salt.

According to periyar, as I understand it, his views are a reflection of his experience. Each of us, should treat them critically, and adopt only what we feel is applicable for us.

periyar acknowledges that he is not always correct and that the last thing he would like is blind followers. i do not know of any other leader of that standing, caution his followers against his own goals, aim and views. leaders, after all, are wont to demand aboslute fealty. periyar was refreshingly different.

i give him special credit for that, as i am a many shades of grey personally, inbetween the absolutes of black and white, right and wrong, goodness and evil, even though i abhor his virulent tirades on brahmins, there are aspects of his viewpoint that i can relate.

when history is written, periyar will be prominent. so will bharathiar and sivaji ganesan. i am not so sure about rajaji or even kamaraj.

Incidentally, rajaji, when prompted on periyar and his anti brahminism, is said to have pooh-pooh’d it, as rajaji believed that there always existed an anti Brahmin strain in tamil nadu, and it would be irrelevant to brahmin interests.

boy, was he mistaken!

There has been talk that sathyamurthi would have dealt/accommodated the resurgent dravidianism, and deflected it away from anti brahminism, for he understood the masses better than rajaji. After all it was sathyamurthi who helped kamaraj gain the gaddi, after deposing rajaji. but that is another story....

back to rajaji.

where I think, rajaji failed to understand the impact of deep rooted anger against perceived brahmin domination, was that with modern communication and excellent oratory, periyar’s disciples were able to mobilize and produce a mass based movement, which has been in power in one form or the other for over 40 years and looks unlikely to hand over or even share the reins with the erstwhile Brahmin establishment.

To that extent, I think, periyarism was a success, mainly because, tamil Brahmin leaders like rajaji, did not take anti-brahminism seriously, or felt, that they could ride it out.

Had they treated this as a political challenge, maybe we would have played our cards better, and atleast could have avoided the sense of alienation, which, I think, we feel, even to this day, and hence the purpose of this thread. i think this is the root cause ie failing to come up with a political strategy to deal with resurgent dravidianism. enough said. again.

we forgot, that the tamil tribes are a proud lot. in a sleight way, we insulted them, (and maybe continue to do so), by the supposed assumption, of a supposed superior intellect. we forgot our 'place' in the hierarchy. arrogancy, i think, precedes, a mighty fall from grace.

not smart. not chanakyanist. what more can i say?

to conclude:

There is always a general belief that inspite of their unfathomable political differences, rajaji and periyar shared a bond of deep friendship. In fact, that during rajaji’s funeral, periyar was present right from the start to the end, was exemplified by the tamil press, as a symbol of friendship crossing politics and social norms, and surviving through ages.

I disagree.

I think periyar hated rajaji. periyar was present during rajaji’s funeral, only to ensure that the older man was fully consecrated to flames and reduced to embers, and would never more rise to give periyar grief.

no more, no less.


Thank you.

 

[jebamani]

separatist danger

We might not have forgotten what happened to dr subramanyam swamy inside the court chambers.i would also like to invite your attention to the burning of our national flags attacking our army convoy and sealing all central government offices. all works of the periyar dravidar kazhagam and the VCK etc. this happenings are all sure signs of what is in store to our nations integrity. luckily ltte prabhakaran is dead and the tamil separatist are groping in the dark not knowing what to do..but the danger is still is simmering and it will get come out with much more vigor if the sufferings of the displaced tamil civilians voes are not attended to at once.our country is in the grip of italian invasion and we cannot expect wonders from our wondefful chidambaram.if our country is going to remain complacent as in the case of kashmir,bangladesi illegal immigration and the now popular naxal menace in respect of the srilankan tamils , we can be rest assured what happened the to army convoy or to the national flag is bound to happen to the tamil bramins and the north indian as well as to other so called dravidians the malayalee etc.so the need of the hour is to wake up and do some thing to pressurize the srilankan govt to attend the plight of the tamils. jebamani mohanraj 24995579 94440 18543

 

[kunjuppu]

jebamani,

it has been a great achievement so far, and credit should go to the maturity of this forum participants, to have maintained a sober and sensible postings to this potentially volatile thread.

except your post, which i feel, has no bearing on this thread. also, i am alarmed by your inflammatory language and i see no place for it here.

this thread is more an exhortion towards unity and integration than otherwise.

i understand and do appreciate your concerns but i wish you do not hijack this thread towards your area of interest.

can you please move your post to a new thread, or to one, concerning the plight of sri lankan tamils?

thank you.

 

[jebamani]

separatist danger

i am sorry and my most may either be deleted or posted under a separate thread

 

[RVR]

I am staying in Annanagar, Chennai for the past 25 years which is a cosmopolitan area as compared to Mylapore, Mambalam etc. My children move friendly with all communities irrespective of religion, caste or language. But they were all surprised when they were discriminted during college admission based on Caste Tag. Even if we want to give up, the present regulations are not allowing us to give up caste.

I told my children that every threat has an opportunity and they moved out of the discriminatory educational atomosphere. They are all getting settled abroad and I hope their children will not face similar problems in the future

 

[kunjuppu]

...I told my children that every threat has an opportunity and they moved out of the discriminatory educational atomosphere. They are all getting settled abroad and I hope their children will not face similar problems in the future.....

venkat,

i agree with you especially, what i imagine, is the feeling of dismay and frustration experienced by our children residing in tamil nadu. i think your solution is my preferred one too.

everything, though, comes with a price. i left india early 1970s - not a victim of any quota system, but simply due to lack of jobs, and also due to an overwhelming curiosity of what lay beyond our borders.

my children have grown up in canada, like several other TB children here. they have had the benefit of a secular modern education, though not structured or stringent by our standards, balances it out, with curiosity and creative thinking. atleast i think so.

the price is, that the next generation, does not view themselves as tamil brahmins. it takes a tenuous set of arguements to instill a sense of bond with india, let alone tamil nadu.

almost all of them have married outside the tamil fold, mostly other caste/state hindus or whites. the few, that i know, yielding to parental influence, and married TBs, have split soon after, when the need for compatibility outscores compliance to brahmin mores. ditto for locally grown up boys who married from india - disaster for the girls in all cases, as these boys were misfits here in the first place, and could not find local brides.

also, out went many practices and celebrations that were the norm in our household - such as deepavali, gokulashtami or navrathri. the temple visit is a formal weekend affair, as opposed to strolling to kapali koil during a weekday evening, to soak up the smells and atmospheres.

the biggest shock is to the parents. when my parents visited me, there were out of place and hated it. my younger relatives, whose children are settled abroad, are going through the same bitter sweet feelings now.

the more successful parents, i think, are those who moved to the new country, and shed their inhibitions. they took some employment, kept busy. this applies for both the gents and the ladies. to keep busy, reinventing your careers, and if possible, establish a separate household from their children, gives them a fresh start in life, that they had never imagined.

there is also the added satisfaction, of being near the grand children, which is a joy that can never be measured. plus, some consolation, that when the end comes, there is a reasonable chance that the children will be near you, though not necessarily waiting on your beck and call, like in the old country.

all in all, there is good chance for a plus experience for the whole family.

as for myself, i took to canada like a fish to water, and my children consider themselves canadians first.

there are among our groups, who try to instill religiosity and tamil proficiency and appreciation of cultures through bhajan classes, tamil classes and bharatanatyam or music lessons, all conducted on weekends.

however, all these appear does not appear to have permeated into the psyche of the children, who are only ready to discard them, at the first available opportunity, ie leaving home for university, after grade 12.

there are ofcourse exceptions to my above generalizations.

also, i find one country, where tamil traditions are not only followed but kept up with community support, is singapore. my relatives there have a western lifestyle, and indian values, including many stifling ones, that appears to have emigrated along with their persons.

but singapore has the 2 years military service. and also quotas in their universities, per the percentage population re chinese/malays/indians...

the bottom line: in order for your children's children to fully benefit from their new countries, they need to be assimilated, and acquire the values and mores of the new country.

otherwise, they become what is normally termed as ABCDs. i have met a few. these are very sad specimens, and the blame lies entirely on the parents.

thank you.

 

[tbs]

venkat,

i agree with you especially, what i imagine, is the feeling of dismay and frustration experienced by our children residing in tamil nadu. i think your solution is my preferred one too.

everything, though, comes with a price. i left india early 1970s - not a victim of any quota system, but simply due to lack of jobs, and also due to an overwhelming curiosity of what lay beyond our borders.

my children have grown up in canada, like several other TB children here. they have had the benefit of a secular modern education, though not structured or stringent by our standards, balances it out, with curiosity and creative thinking. atleast i think so.

the price is, that the next generation, does not view themselves as tamil brahmins. it takes a tenuous set of arguements to instill a sense of bond with india, let alone tamil nadu.

almost all of them have married outside the tamil fold, mostly other caste/state hindus or whites. the few, that i know, yielding to parental influence, and married TBs, have split soon after, when the need for compatibility outscores compliance to brahmin mores. ditto for locally grown up boys who married from india - disaster for the girls in all cases, as these boys were misfits here in the first place, and could not find local brides.

also, out went many practices and celebrations that were the norm in our household - such as deepavali, gokulashtami or navrathri. the temple visit is a formal weekend affair, as opposed to strolling to kapali koil during a weekday evening, to soak up the smells and atmospheres.

the biggest shock is to the parents. when my parents visited me, there were out of place and hated it. my younger relatives, whose children are settled abroad, are going through the same bitter sweet feelings now.

the more successful parents, i think, are those who moved to the new country, and shed their inhibitions. they took some employment, kept busy. this applies for both the gents and the ladies. to keep busy, reinventing your careers, and if possible, establish a separate household from their children, gives them a fresh start in life, that they had never imagined.

there is also the added satisfaction, of being near the grand children, which is a joy that can never be measured. plus, some consolation, that when the end comes, there is a reasonable chance that the children will be near you, though not necessarily waiting on your beck and call, like in the old country.

all in all, there is good chance for a plus experience for the whole family.

as for myself, i took to canada like a fish to water, and my children consider themselves canadians first.

there are among our groups, who try to instill religiosity and tamil proficiency and appreciation of cultures through bhajan classes, tamil classes and bharatanatyam or music lessons, all conducted on weekends.

however, all these appear does not appear to have permeated into the psyche of the children, who are only ready to discard them, at the first available opportunity, ie leaving home for university, after grade 12.

there are ofcourse exceptions to my above generalizations.

also, i find one country, where tamil traditions are not only followed but kept up with community support, is singapore. my relatives there have a western lifestyle, and indian values, including many stifling ones, that appears to have emigrated along with their persons.

but singapore has the 2 years military service. and also quotas in their universities, per the percentage population re chinese/malays/indians...

the bottom line: in order for your children's children to fully benefit from their new countries, they need to be assimilated, and acquire the values and mores of the new country.

otherwise, they become what is normally termed as ABCDs. i have met a few. these are very sad specimens, and the blame lies entirely on the parents.

thank you.

hi kunjuppu
thank u so much ...i agreed with u..recently i attended an INTERFAITH DIALOGUE ON INTERFAITH MARRIAGES....attended
by hindu/christian/muslim/jewish/buddhist faith priests/leaders..
i came to know about some stastical points about hindu
community marriages...here in USA the first generation about
7% intercaste//faith marriages...the second generation ABCD's
about 39% interfaith/caste...the third generation ABCD's
more than 70% intercaste/faith..its alarming for ABCD
parents...i agreed no caste system here...but we have to
pay price for abroad settlements....the parents are paying
the price......i can add malaysia in addition to singapore..
the days are not very far like situations like TRINIDAD/MAURITIOUS/
FIJI indian type for TBs in abroad...

regards

 

[pannvalan]

Periyar, his philosophies and self-contradictions/hypocrisy were discussed at length already in this forum. Please do not add 'theetu' to this forum, any further.

 

[sapr333]

Shri.TBS, indeed, you shared some wonderful statistics..

I think you concur with me, that 'In order to substain/preserve the culture and traditions, Integrating with Tamil-Tribes is the best option, than crossing Atlantic.


I also would look forward to your suggestion on the, modus-operandi of this integration. Thanks

 

[sapthajihva]

Misplaced topic based on wrong logic!!!

If the non-brahmins (ie., only those who hate) remove their hatred towards brahmins, it is enough. That is the simple solution. I dont see why there is so much fuss about integrating brahmins with tamil 'tribes'. Who says that they are not integrated? And in what way?

If somebody has a misconception about brahmins, then that misconception should be removed, but the fact does not, by itself, mean that to throw off the misconception, existing practices have to be hived off. Integration need not be only through inter-caste marriages or by throwing off the brahmin practices.

Integration is achieved only through mutual respect and association, nothing else.

For somebody who sees any other way of integration, no amount of reasoning would do to convince.

Never to look, the way of others
Sign of weakness, and the mind bothers
To each his way, folly is nay
Restless does he search, forever to slay
Start an issue, when there is none
Confuse the mind, the damage is done
Is it Integration?, of the tamil brahmin
Already is, why then, should minds spin?

 

[pannvalan]

I concur with Sapthajihva that integration need not be by marital ties alone. But going by the earlier posts, I understand what other members mean is only better social interaction - at the individual level and at the various social fora. Better still, inter-personal relationships through formal and informal means will enhance the cordiality and will remove dislike/hatred if any. That's sufficient.

 

[kunjuppu]

i understand and appreciate the broad sentiments here, re intermarriage with other tamil castes.

as a consequence, a couple of my other concerns are now left unanswered

- an overwhelming number of our boys unable to find wives within our caste, as is evidenced by ads not only in this forum, but in other matrimonial sites

- the declining numbers of us in tamil nadu

for both the above, marrying and initiating the brides into our way of life. i think, like any other marriage, once the expectations are set, and there is a match of minds, this is feasible.

thank you.

 

[sapthajihva]

as a consequence, a couple of my other concerns are now left unanswered

- an overwhelming number of our boys unable to find wives within our caste, as is evidenced by ads not only in this forum, but in other matrimonial sites

- the declining numbers of us in tamil nadu

for both the above, marrying and initiating the brides into our way of life. i think, like any other marriage, once the expectations are set, and there is a match of minds, this is feasible.

thank you.

The ability or inability to find a match speedily (ie., once the process of match-making is initiated) is entirely dependent on the trend of the mindset of the boys and girls.

A personal example known to me of a brother and sister. The boy is an prof grad, but earns around 25k/month. Now his expectation from his prospective wife is that she should be a grad and should have a handsome salary. His prospective bridal alliances are all well qualified above him and hence, are reluctant to move a step forward. He, on the other hand, does not want to settle for other options. It stretches on and on.

If this is the case with the boy, the sister's is even worse. She is a comp post grad, but not employed. Her expectations from the boy are too high - handsomely employed (ie., salary above a certain limit), prof qual, et al. She refuses to marry any other, even though some horoscopes have matched.

Both are not learning from each other's experience/expectations itself.

To sum up, the issue of delayed marriage is due to;

1) Unrealistic expectations
2) Imbalance in educational qualifications
3) Affluency factor
4) Attraction to settle abroad
5) Some parents wantonly delay the girl's marriage for monetary reasons
6) A tendency to look down on traditional vocations (it is the last resort)

There could be others.

Boys and girls should realize that marriage is not a business proposal, rather one of love, affection and relationships. The failure to practically see it through is the root cause of such delays.

I dont see how integration with other tamil tribes could be a solution.

Brahmins have always been a minority in terms of population. Of late, inter-caste marriages are on the rise, maybe a direct result of the delay in marriages.

Some of the suggestions to increase the numbers (if indeed, it is a cause of concern):

1) Encourage affluent brahmin families to have more children
2) Create a climate of conduciveness within the brahmin community
3) Balance modernisation in line with tradition

Again, breeding outside the brahmin community is no means to foster integration or to salvage declining numbers. In an inter caste marriage, casteism is lost and they are not brahmin caste any more.

Hope I have put forward a valid argument.

 

[sapr333]

The right terminology is 'Appropriation'' (not sure though)


Italian petti-kadai pizza is now American one
Bob Marley's shoes-regge are now Italian.
VascoDaGama's Chilli is now an important player in indian rituals.Kurumilahu is dead and only for export!!
Yoga soon to become an American form of physiotheraphy.


Btw, its not just marriage alone, there are lot of ways, Integration could happen.

 

[happyhindu]

Sapthajihva,

If the non-brahmins (ie., only those who hate) remove their hatred towards brahmins, it is enough.

The prob happens to be a 2-way situation. Lets not forget that there are 'brahmins' who will assert superiority and ascribe a spiritual stance to social organization, to this day. This does not go well with the masses, since there are tamil NBs who believe there was no 'brahmanical' stuff in ancient tamil culture; nor do they beleive there was any spiritual significance to social organization in the past. The prob is with 'claims", on both sides, by brahmins and by dalits.


Sapr,

The right terminology is 'Appropriation'' (not sure though)

Italian petti-kadai pizza is now American one
Bob Marley's shoes-regge are now Italian.
VascoDaGama's Chilli is now an important player in indian rituals.Kurumilahu is dead and only for export!!
Yoga soon to become an American form of physiotheraphy.

Btw, its not just marriage alone, there are lot of ways, Integration could happen.

Everyone knows pizza is italian, though americans gorge on it. That reggae is afro-american music is well known, there are / were very many varieties of chilli, apart from kurumilaghu am sure indians were making their food 'hot' using other ingredients, the whole world knows yoga is indian....so, what's the point?

Please enumerate and explain what you think are 'lots of ways of integration'.

 

[sapr333]

am sure indians were making their food 'hot' using other ingredients, the whole world knows yoga is indian....so, what's the point?
Please enumerate and explain what you think are 'lots of ways of integration'.

Dear HH, thats an interesting question.. I just tried to put things with that, self explanatory analogy.. Hmm!!

If all those things could be appropriated inside particular cultures, one may not find it difficult to appropriate brides too. Spaniards have tested this model 4 centuries ago..

Anyways, its up to ones personal choice,and should not be insisted or compelled.


Spaniards have set their foot print all over the globe that way,but, in India Parsis who were controlling 30% of Indian economy just 50 years ago, had now become an endangered species, and those 80,000 alive all falls under the average height of 4' 9" with partial hearing problems,etc,etc.

This is not the problem with Parsis alone, majority of the Indian societies,who are bogged down with the caste-culture mindset (esp,small communities), do have this issue,..Its better, people learn lessons from history.

 

[happyhindu]

Btw, its not just marriage alone, there are lot of ways, Integration could happen.

Dear HH, thats an interesting question.. I just tried to put things with that, self explanatory analogy.. Hmm!!

If all those things could be appropriated inside particular cultures, one may not find it difficult to appropriate brides too. Spaniards have tested this model 4 centuries ago..

Anyways, its up to ones personal choice,and should not be insisted or compelled.


Spaniards have set their foot print all over the globe that way,but, in India Parsis who were controlling 30% of Indian economy just 50 years ago, had now become an endangered species, and those 80,000 alive all falls under the average height of 4' 9" with partial hearing problems,etc,etc.

I think parsis are still controlling a large part of the indian economy (tatas, pallonji mistry, bombay dyeing, godrej family, etc). They marry late, have fewer kids, now marry out of the parsi clan but absorb the outsiders into their zoarashtrian culture). I dunno from where you got this average height of 4'9'' figure and hearning prob figures.

This is not the problem with Parsis alone, majority of the Indian societies,who are bogged down with the caste-culture mindset (esp,small communities), do have this issue,..Its better, people learn lessons from history.

I was looking forward to your answering on what you think are 'lots of ways of integration' apart from marriages as mentioned above. No answers yet..

 

[sapr333]

Shel Silverstain once wrote...

I asked the zebra,
Are you black with white strips?
Or white with black strips?

And the zebra asked me,
Are you good with bad habits?
Or are you bad with good habits?
Are you noisy with quiet times?
Or are you quiet with noisy times?
And on and on and on and on
And on and on he went.
I'll never ask a zebra About stripes Again.

In any forum, these kinds will only end up in array of Vibgyors and quotes & multiple quotes, and finally end up as unreadable stuff without delivering any message,apart from increasing the post count.

Also, its not a CAT exam where you are rushed to answer 165 questions in 120 minutes with our frequently sharpened HB pencils. Its also not a rapid fire section of Siddharth Basu or Derik O Brien.

If we all know every answers,then 'forums' would be ranked as Numero-Uno 'Foolish inventions of this century" by TIMES.

The question has already been asked in Post #1.. Its up to all of us to share the thoughts by having an engaged dialogue in good spirits,and explore ways and means to Integrate with the rest of the tamil tribes.

 

[happyhindu]

Shel Silverstain once wrote...

I asked the zebra,
Are you black with white strips?
Or white with black strips?

And the zebra asked me,
Are you good with bad habits?
Or are you bad with good habits?
Are you noisy with quiet times?
Or are you quiet with noisy times?
And on and on and on and on
And on and on he went.
I'll never ask a zebra About stripes Again.

In any forum, these kinds will only end up in array of Vibgyors and quotes & multiple quotes, and finally end up as unreadable stuff without delivering any message,apart from increasing the post count.

Also, its not a CAT exam where you are rushed to mark 165 questions in 120 minutes with our frequently sharpened HB pencils. Its also not a rapid fire section of Siddharth Basu or Derik O Brien.

If we all know every answers,then 'forums' would be ranked as Numero-Uno 'Foolish inventions of this century" by TIMES.

The question has already been asked in Post #1.. Its up to all of us to share the thoughts by having an engaged dialogue in good spirits,and explore ways and means to Integrate with the rest of the tamil tribes.

That is exactly what i asked in the previous post. What do you think are "lots of ways of integration'? Apart from marriage, you are yet to touch upon anything else....

There is a saying in hindi - naach na jaane angan tayda. If someone does not know to dance, he blames the floor is not proper. If people want to say there are lots of ways, and then not provide or suggest methods of integration, looks like they tend to call forums foolish instead...

Its seems even foolish to compare forums to exams, its as if ppl asked to you provide answers like a CAT exam or rapid fire answers...if there is no willingness to explain or provide suggestions for 'lots of ways to integration', then why mention that there are 'lots of ways' at all ? Don't you think by saying there are lots of ways, you perk up other's interest, and then throw a damper by not speaking on it...

 

[kunjuppu]

it seems to me that integration is a state of the mind.

for example, the tamil christians, feel themselves as tamil as the tamil hindus. same goes in kerala with both the christians and the muslims.

as tamil brahmins, we feel integrated with india, on an almost, i feel 100% sense.

in all these above comforts of integration, there is very little interaction and even less intermarriages.

there is a comfortable 'live and let live' accommodation, with the sense that towards a certain aspects of the community, we all share similar views.

the process of affirmative action in colleges and government jobs, i think, has more than anything else, brought in us, a sense of alienation. atleast, this is what i gather, from views expressed by tamil brahmins all over the internet.

it appears to be persistent and does not seem to lose its shrillness. it was there when i was young, and only 25% was reserved for sc/st and very sparingly enforced.

the sense of loss is deeper now, with 70% reservations. and the future, to me, is reservations in the private sector. this is taking into account, that without government blessing, no private company can survive. in india. or elsewhere. i think so.

alienation, produced by such preferential treatment can be eliminated, i think, only by emigration to places, where 'merit' as we know it, is practised, in its totality. this will not be tamil nadu or for that matter, india. the other states are waking up to what tamil nadu initiated 40 years ago.

on the other hand, my proddings towards lowering the walls towards intermarriage, while was an integrating move, it was as important, as a method, to replenish our diminishing numbers in tamil nadu.

there are an awful large number of TB bachelors, hitting the wrong side of 30s, and wailing away their lost youth, and possible loss of grihasthahood.

to put the onus back on to these folks, under the argument, that these folks have 'high' expectations, is not correct. in short, there are not enough of lallis to go around for the ambis.

till 50 years ago, we had large families, each producing large broods. even though the mariage market was limited by communication thresh holds, there was a man for every eligible girl.

not any more. a society cannot grow by shrinking.

personally, i think, the walls will follow gradually. after all, we do not have a single titular religious head for the community, who guides us to new paths.

we, on an individual basis, at some point break down our barriers, in order to satisfy a further overwhelming need. whether our boys will chose brahmins from other states, or non brahmin from tamil nadu, that is immaterial.

the fact is that they will be forced to seek out mates out of the community. there is this feeling of dread, lurking around the corner. why else, is there a call, getting louder by the post, about the need to do away with differences between vadamaas and dosaimaas, iyers and iyengars etc. etc.

deep in our heart, we know the inevitable. we are progressing at our comfort speed, towards resolutions.

as a result of some of these resolutions, those that marry within other tamil tribes, will produce progeny who might feel more integrated with tamildom. a marriage to a punjabi or kannada brahmin, i feel, will not do anything to promote a sense of being tamil.

thank you.

 

[happyhindu]

Kunjuppuji,

forgive me for asking this - is a marriage the only way to integrate? are there no other ways?

 

[kunjuppu]

Kunjuppuji,

forgive me for asking this - is a marriage the only way to integrate? are there no other ways?

happy,

i do not know how to answer this question, because my perspectives are limited.

in my previous post, i stated, that 'integration is a state of the mind'.

in the same post, i have slipped in a solution to the increasing large number of tamil brahmin boys unable to find a mate within the community.

i concluded the same last post, with the view, that if one marries a non brahmin tamil, the 'tamil' in us will remain. otherwise not.

the more i write on this subject, the more i find it difficult to comprehend. it appears to be the nature of this beast.

another of my pet peeves is carnatic music. the roots of carnatic music are in ancient tamil isai. true, tamil isai was languishing, till the thyagaraja etc. created their telugu/sanskrit litanies and the tamil brahmins tuned these to ancient ragas and talas.

in the process, the intrinsic 'tamil' in tamil isai has been side swept.

one small way, to integrate, it to have a majority of songs in carnatic concerts to be tamil. it is not that there is dearth of material. it is dearth of will.

also, please read nacchinarkiniyan's take on tamil brahmins through the link provided by sapr in the 'self reliance' post. nacchi lists not only our shortcomings, but provides clear directions.

i am with all of what nacchi has written.

thank you.

 

[gokul.kannan]

Thank you Kunjuppuji

Kunjuppuji,
I've been following this thread for sometime. I should say that you are really a class apart. Your views are very progressive, taking into account the changing times. I'm staying in london and questions regarding identity of our children in a foreign land is something that disturbs me always. I would say your views on this, gives so much clarity.I should say many thanks to you on this.
But sir, Integration amongst other tribes should be taken in various levels. For example, someone who has settled abroad and have their children growing up in a foreign land, I think this is a necessity. Because it would be difficult to find matches within caste, in a foreign country. One should be fortunate even to get married within the same religion.

But for brahmins staying in tamilnadu, do you think this is a viable option? I understand that your solution would be to intermarry among castes and follow the iyer traditions. But would people from other castes be willing to do this, in first place? It might be ok to get iyerize a bride from different caste, but a groom would always prefer his practices to be followed. There is no assurance that everyone will yield to this.
In the longer run, this could give good results, but this is nothing short of revolution. Accepting partner from other communities and iyerizing him is redefining the caste identity defined by birth. This requires a change in mindset, especially from us- the brahmins.

Thanks for this post Kunjuppuji. We would need thoughts like this to help re-invent ourselves. I'm sure the age-old traditionalist outlook will get us nowhere.

Regards.
Gokul

 

[RVR]

If a brahmin adopts a non-brahmin boy or girl, the caste is changed for the adopted both legally as well as per our customs. Sundaramoorthi Nayanar married Paravai Nachiar in Tiruvarur and Sangilinachiar in Tiruvotriyur. Sundaramoorthi Nayanar belonged to Saiva Andhanar (probably Kurukkal) where as both the ladies belonged to other communities. Thirugnana Sambandar gave life to a Chettiar girl at Mylapore. He refused to marry her not because she is a non-brahmin but considered her as her own daughter. Caste was practically non-existant during Azwar/Nayanmar period but probably appeared after Sankara period.