is it possible to convert into a brahmin ?

[Raji Ram]

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Do we really need to call running a chai shop as "merely running a chai shop?"

After all a chaiwala is also doing a honest job.

I feel any job done within its Dharma is worthy of praise be it a Chaiwala or a PM wala.

Dear Renu,

Very true!! But tambram girls do not fall in lovvu with 'tea boys'! :nono:

Only in the movie 'Devathaiyaik kaNdEn', a high caste girl is chases by the 'tea boy' Dhanush!!

 

[sravna]

After reading the post of Mr.Kailash again, it seems that the girl is ok with not proceeding further which is not a great sign for true love. The best thing for Mr.Kailash to do would be to not force the marriage if the parents and especially the girl are not really willing since if things go wrong in the future life would become hard for all concerned.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renu,

Very true!! But tambram girls do not fall in lovvu with 'tea boys'! :nono:

Only in the movie 'Devathaiyaik kaNdEn', a high caste girl is chases by the 'tea boy' Dhanush!!

Dear RR ji,

In real life rich house girls usually fall only for their own status guys..its only in movies its the reverse.

But when I was in India there was a story I heard from some seniors that a medical student from a rich home used to date an auto driver and when she finished her course she ditched him and he became mentally unstable after that and he used to climb up the hostel walls calling her name aloud and finally he totally lost control of his mind and became insane.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Whilst the girl belongs to Iyengar community, the gentleman who initiated the topic has not mentioned about his caste, let alone religion.

If you are a Hindu and follow Vaishnavism, there is no problem in marrying an Iyengar girl. But if you practice Saivism, you may insist performing the marriage as per your customs, since marriages are being performed per bridegroom's practices, throughout the world. Alternatively, the marriage can be performed per practices being followed by both sides.

Recently, a popular Tamil actor, who, I think, is a B, married a popular actress who is from Naidu community. The marriage was performed as per customs and conventions of both communities.

 

[sarang]

My reading matches yours.

After reading the post of Mr.Kailash again, it seems that the girl is ok with not proceeding further which is not a great sign for true love. The best thing for Mr.Kailash to do would be to not force the marriage if the parents and especially the girl are not really willing since if things go wrong in the future life would become hard for all concerned.

 

[sarang]

An american tourist fell in love with a mumbai taxi driver, returned later and married him. Part 2 of this beautiful episode was not aired by the media.

Dear RR ji,

In real life rich house girls usually fall only for their own status guys..its only in movies its the reverse.

But when I was in India there was a story I heard from some seniors that a medical student from a rich home used to date an auto driver and when she finished her course she ditched him and he became mentally unstable after that and he used to climb up the hostel walls calling her name aloud and finally he totally lost control of his mind and became insane.

 

[Raji Ram]

.......... But when I was in India there was a story I heard from some seniors that a medical student from a rich home used to date an auto driver and when she finished her course she ditched him and he became mentally unstable after that and he used to climb up the hostel walls calling her name aloud and finally he totally lost control of his mind and became insane.

Dear Renu,

This is probably a lovvu for convenience! That girl is very smart indeed, because this

dumb auto guy would not have charged any money for her trips in and around the city! :tsk:

 

[auh]

Well... I think there is a technical possibility of becoming a brahmin !

First, since the girl in question is an iyengar, the boy has to undergo Samasrayanam. Then he would become a SV.

Then, let an iyengar family, known to and of a different gothram from the girl, adopt the boy. Case rested.

 

[sarang]

Perfect solution if the girl and her parents are willing to accept him as husband and son in law.

Well... I think there is a technical possibility of becoming a brahmin !

First, since the girl in question is an iyengar, the boy has to undergo Samasrayanam. Then he would become a SV.

Then, let an iyengar family, known to and of a different gothram from the girl, adopt the boy. Case rested.

 

[Raji Ram]

Well... I think there is a technical possibility of becoming a brahmin !

First, since the girl in question is an iyengar, the boy has to undergo Samasrayanam. Then he would become a SV.

Then, let an iyengar family, known to and of a different gothram from the girl, adopt the boy. Case rested.

Dear Sir,

Technically possible! But practically? :noidea:

1. Can a non brahmin undergo Samasrayanam? Which Guru will do it?

2. Will the boy's parents willingly give their son in adoption to an Iyengar family?

 

[tks]

Well... I think there is a technical possibility of becoming a brahmin !

First, since the girl in question is an iyengar, the boy has to undergo Samasrayanam. Then he would become a SV.

Then, let an iyengar family, known to and of a different gothram from the girl, adopt the boy. Case rested.

Thank you, Sri auh - I learnt something today..
The description says this is done without regard to caste or creed etc. So this must have happened over many centuries.



For others:
Source: Samasrayanam

What is Samashrayanam?
SamAshrayanam means 'to approach (AchAryA) with all sincerity'. In a nut shell, during 'SamAshrayanam', the AchAryA initiates a person, irrespective of caste, creed or sex, as his sishyA. It is a commitment from the disciple that he or she will live as per the wishes of the AchAryA. Thus the person gets the link to the Sri Vaishnava paramparA. During SamAshrayanam, Pancha SamskAram (five Purifications) is performed and he becomes a "Sri VaishnavA".
The five samskArams and its main purposes are:

1. thApam:To emboss the impressions of heated Sankha and ChakrA on the arms (near the shoulders).2. pundram:To wear the dvAdasa Urdhva pundram (12 Thiruman & Srichoornam)3. nAmam:To be christened by the AchAryA afresh as"RAmAnuja dAsan"(addition of 'dAsA'at the end of ones name) to indicate that one is forever a servant of the Supreme Lord Sriman NArAyanA and BhagavAnRAmAnujA.4. manthram:To get the initiation of "Rahasya Traya MantrAs" - AshtAksharam, Dvayam and charama slokam.5. Ijyai:To learn the worship of Sriman nArAyanA in proper form (Bhagavad ThiruvArAdhanam).

 

[Naina_Marbus]

Well... I think there is a technical possibility of becoming a brahmin !

First, since the girl in question is an iyengar, the boy has to undergo Samasrayanam. Then he would become a SV.

Then, let an iyengar family, known to and of a different gothram from the girl, adopt the boy. Case rested.

I was not aware of this before. You have done a yeoman service to Hinduism !

Dictionary defines yeoman service as "one who performs great and loyal service to a cause"

 

[vgane]

Thank you, Sri auh - I learnt something today..
The description says this is done without regard to caste or creed etc. So this must have happened over many centuries.



For others:
Source: Samasrayanam

What is Samashrayanam?
SamAshrayanam means 'to approach (AchAryA) with all sincerity'. In a nut shell, during 'SamAshrayanam', the AchAryA initiates a person, irrespective of caste, creed or sex, as his sishyA. It is a commitment from the disciple that he or she will live as per the wishes of the AchAryA. Thus the person gets the link to the Sri Vaishnava paramparA. During SamAshrayanam, Pancha SamskAram (five Purifications) is performed and he becomes a "Sri VaishnavA".
The five samskArams and its main purposes are:

1. thApam:To emboss the impressions of heated Sankha and ChakrA on the arms (near the shoulders).2. pundram:To wear the dvAdasa Urdhva pundram (12 Thiruman & Srichoornam)3. nAmam:To be christened by the AchAryA afresh as"RAmAnuja dAsan"(addition of 'dAsA'at the end of ones name) to indicate that one is forever a servant of the Supreme Lord Sriman NArAyanA and BhagavAnRAmAnujA.4. manthram:To get the initiation of "Rahasya Traya MantrAs" - AshtAksharam, Dvayam and charama slokam.5. Ijyai:To learn the worship of Sriman nArAyanA in proper form (Bhagavad ThiruvArAdhanam).

Thank you Sir for this...It says that all communities can aspire to become a srivaishnava!

According to the Scriptures these sacraments should be conferred upon all who sincerely request them, and the supplicant should not be examined too closely for faults since in fact there are strictly no qualifications for taking

Striyaḥ śūdras ca anulomaḥ kalyāṇa guṇa samyutaḥ | yadi tāni śiśyatve grhṇiyat krpayā guruḥ ||

If a woman, or Sudra or outcaste applies for initiation and is possessed of good qualities, then he/she should gladly be accepted by the guru.
(Vishvamitra Samhita 3:27.)

Program of Initiation

1. Udaka Shanti- Sanctification & Empowerment

In this ceremony a jar of water is placed upon an altar and various cosmic forces are invoked for their blessings. The rite is preceded by the invocation and worship of Viśvaksena for the removal of all obstacles to the achievement of success in ones spiritual endeavours. Various passages from the Vedas are chanted by the priests invoking the cosmic forces. The presiding deity of the mind (Indra) is invoked to protect the spiritual aspirant on the arduous spiritual path and to give him/her the power to combat the enemies of spiritual advancement - selfish desire, anger, delusion, greed, envy, pride etc. The cosmic witness (Varuna) is invoked to watch the progress of the aspirant and to goad him/her on to success. Agni (the presiding deity of fire) is invoked to purify the aspirant from all previous sins and to offer protection and guidance. The forces of wisdom are invoked to bestow learning and the ability to understand the teachings. Thus the spiritual aspirants are absolved of all their previous sins and offences and empowered to accept the teachings and to practice them.

Once the water has been sanctified through these Vedic chants the aspirants are bathed and don new garments indicative of their re-birth.

2. Punyaha Vachanam
Another brief sanctification ceremony which can be done as part of the Udaka Shanti or instead. It is done in order to purify all the accessories of the ritual and the other participants. Prayers are offered for the removal of all negative mental states which hinder the dawning of wisdom.

3. Raksha Bandhanam

A rite of protection is done and a blessed thread is tied around the wrist of each participant in order to protect them from all negativity that may be directed at them during the actual initiation ceremony by opposing forces.


4. Pradhana Homa

The fire representing wisdom is kindled and sanctified and then offerings are made by the officiating priests reciting various Vedic hymns to Vishnu — the Supreme Person. All oblations are made with the exclamation Svāhā which means — I am offering myself as an oblation for the welfare of all sentient beings. The purpose of this Pañcarātric initiation ceremony is to qualify and empower one for the worship of the Supreme Being and for serving all the creation which is His external manifestation. All sentient beings are moving temples of the divine and the spiritual aspirant will practice mindfulness of this principle and act accordingly to enhance the joy of all other sentient beings - even sacrificing ones own happiness for that of others.

After the conclusion of the fire ceremony the first sacrament is conferred.

5. Tapa

The sacrament of branding the aspirant with the symbols of the conch and discus is done as penance for past sins and as a sign of one’s complete self-dedication to the spiritual path. This in turn brings about a reformation of the self and the bearing of the marks of the conch and discus upon the shoulders remind one that he/she is an eternal servant of the Lord. The discus Sudarsana reminds the devotees that they are not subjected to the laws of time and fortune, and that they should be free from the fear of being crushed by the false charges that are brought against them by their enemies.

The following prayer is recited by the postulant prior to accepting the Discus Brand:

"O refulgent Sudarshana, as bright as an hundred thousand suns, lead me from the darkness of ignorance and guide me on the Path of the Supreme Godhead."

Before receiving the brand of the conch the supplication is recited:

"O holy conch Panchajanya, your sound vibration (AUM) destroys the heap of sins that have been accumulated by me through my previous births. Save me who am drowning in the ocean of Samsara from the attentions of the wicked."

The second of the five sacraments is now performed.

6. Pundram

The second sacrament guarantees protection against temptation. The body is considered to be the temple of the Lord and so through the application of the sacred markings one sacralises one's physical being. The forehead is the seat of Kesava, which means that He is thought of as protecting the mind from negative thoughts. The belly is the seat of Narayana the breast that of Mādhava, the throat is that of Govinda or 'the giver of delight'; the right side is the seat of Viṣṇu, the 'all-pervading-lord'; the right arm is the seat of Madhusūdana, and the right shoulder that of Trivikrama, the Mighty Lord who with His three strides measured the universe; the left side is that of Vāmana; the left arm is that of Śrīdhara, and the left shoulder that of Hṛṣikeśa, the Lord and guide of the senses and the mind. The back is the seat of Padmanābha - the original fountainhead of creative power. The neck is the seat of Lord Damodara, the all independent Lord, who is always dependant upon His devotees. And finally the head is thought to be the seat of Vāsudeva or the-one-who-dwells-everywhere.

Many Sacred texts enjoin this custom and further stress that no religious work yields merit if the performer is devoid of the sacred marks.

The pundram that is worn on the forehead and body has three lines — two vertical white ones with a red line in the middle. These lines represent the Holy Feet of the Lord, with the goddess of mercy between them. The projecting line running down the nose, represents the First Principle — Parabrahman, the rootless root.

7. Dasya nama

The third sacrament is that of the Nāmakaraṇa or name-giving. It is the noble ambition of the penitent person to earn a name worthy of a true servant of the Lord - "a dāsya nāma". In Tamil the word Tiru is added before the word nama to signify, that the person who has received such a name has become the object of Divine favour in as much as he or she has been favoured by the spiritual master by giving a name other than the one by which one is ordinarily known by all and sundry. Such a name preserves the moral integrity, and acts as a powerful protection against temptation by reminding one constantly, that the servitude of God and the devotees, is the very essence of one's being and the goal of one's existence.

8. Mantra upadesha

The fourth sacrament is the bestowal of the sacred mantras — the three jewels. Mantra is so called because it protects the mind and redeems one from Samsāra or cycle of birth and death. The Postulants are now instructed in the recitation and meaning of these three sacred texts.

9. Yaga

The fifth sacrament is that of complete self-surrender to the Supreme Lod Sriman Narayana and the acceptance of the governance of ones life by the sacred canons of the Pañcarātra. This means following a sacred routine of life as laid down in the canons of the Tantric texts, known as 'aradhana-viddhi', or the method-of-divine-servitude. A sacred routine of life means, a routine that is calculated to sanctify one's life. Life consists of a series of actions which may be mental, verbal or physical, and these actions can become sacred when a routine is followed which transforms one's thoughts, actions and aspirations. The routine must be planned in such a way as to leave no room for indulgence in anything unworthy and undesirable. The prapanna undertakes the division of the daily programme into five parts; abhigamana, upadāna, ijya, svadhyāya & yoga.

Abhigamana - briefly means the daily visit to the temple of the Lord in order to worship the iconic manifestation. In the present circumstances because this is physically not possible it refers to the recollection and contemplation upon the four main Vaiṣṇava Shrines — Srirangam, Tirupati, Kanchi and Melkote.

The second part is the upadāna, which consists of collecting all the articles of worship such as flowers, fruit darbha grass, tulasi leaves etc. All the articles offered to God must have been acquired by honest and fair means.

The third part is called ījya which includes such activities as the daily worship of the Lord in ones home, and the performance of the pañca-maha-yajñas or the five-great-sacrifices enjoined in the Scriptures. Every person is under obligation throughout his/her life to repay five debts ; to the deities by making offerings, to the manes by performing sraddha rites, to the rishis by religious studies, and to society by feeding guests and strangers, and finally to the birds and the beasts by food offerings.

Before beginning to eat, the food should first be offered to the Lord in the form of offerings to the five vital breaths (pranahuti). Having partaken of food, one should then in the evening engage in svādhyāya — the study of the Sacred texts such as the hymns of the Alvars, Itihasas, Puranas and other sacred literature, and expound the mysteries of the sacred mantras to others who are willing to listen.

Then before retiring to bed one should perform yoga — meditation upon the divine form of the Lord with all His excellent attributes, the remembrance of which removes all mental impurities. The mind which is difficult to restrain, is brought under control by steady mindfulness, contemplation, controlling of the senses and speech. And then finally one should retire to bed with the thought that one is safe at the feet of the Lord.

In this manner not a moment of the day is wasted in idle pursuits. Such an ideal sacred routine of life can be followed only be the grace of the Supreme and All-merciful Lord. Indeed fortunate are those that can lead such a life, they are truly the favourites of the Lord, and are worthy to be followed by others.

Thus in brief is given the description of the five purificatory rites which sanctify and empower one to follow the path of the Pañcarātra, to achieve perfection and to practice a life-style through which life's mission is fulfilled.

---

http://www.srimatham.com/samasrayanam---taking-refuge.html

 

[renuka]

Striyaḥ śūdras ca anulomaḥ kalyāṇa guṇa samyutaḥ | yadi tāni śiśyatve grhṇiyat krpayā guruḥ ||

If a woman, or Sudra or outcaste applies for initiation and is possessed of good qualities, then he/she should gladly be accepted by the guru.
(Vishvamitra Samhita 3:27.)

l

I am a bit confused here...

shouldn't be Striyaḥ śūdras ca pratiloma kalyāṇa guṇa samyutaḥ instead of

Striyaḥ śūdras ca anulomaḥ kalyāṇa guṇa samyutaḥ

Shouldn't it be Pratiloma ..instead of Anuloma??

Cos Anuloma offsprings are not considered outcaste even though the mother is of a lower caste as compared to the father..for example Parashurama is a product of a Anuloma marriage(father Brahmin..Mother Kshatriya)as far as I know only Pratiloma offsprings are considered outcaste since the mother's caste is higher than the father's caste.


So is there a wrong English translation here in this line..that is Anuloma should have been translated as 'Mixed Caste but still within the Natural Order" instead of Outcaste.

Or it was supposed to be Pratiloma here for outcaste?

Need some clarification here..cos if the line only meant Anuloma..that means Pratilomas are totally not considered for initiation..but here again there is a loop hole..if Pratilomas are not considered but what if a Pratiloma is a female? She can come under the Stri(female) quota isnt it?

BTW as usual most laws for some sort of initiation are always gender biased..saying that a female if she possesses good qualities as if all males have good qualities!LOL

 

[renuka]

2. Will the boy's parents willingly give their son in adoption to an Iyengar family?

Dear RR ji,

This point is valid..cos most parents will not like the idea of changing lineage cos that is insulting to the persons mother..cos she did not copulate with a male of a different lineage for her son to change his lineage to an Iyengar lineage..its a matter of honour at stake here.

So if a person truly respects his parents he will never consider any of these adoption techniques.

And last but not the least..when changing lineage..there is also the possibility of double Curses from the Pitrs!LOL

You see cos the Non Iyengar ancestor in Pitr Loka would be lamenting cos a progeny was "robbed" and the Iyengar ancestors would be lamenting that a Non Iyengar has entered their lineage on technical grounds and not based on birth.

So too much problems..better to not change anything and remain what we are and just get a registered marriage done!

 

[biswa]

Clearly the OP is a bait, after which the poster has disappeared, never to be seen again.

Meanwhile the debate continues ...

 

[renuka]

Why do parents usually object to their child's choice of spouse?

Most of us feel that its becos of maintaining culture/lineage purity etc that parents usually object to their child's choice of spouse.

But if we truly try to analyze the causative factors for this behaviour I have a feeling its much more than just lineage purity or culture.

In order for a species to survive it has to be stronger and fitter than its previous generation cos they face new changes and challenges in the environment..so a species has to facing unknown situations that will make it stronger to withstand onslaught.

We have noted that some parents who have had stable love marriages themselves might get over protective over their children and try to arrange a marriage for them even though once upon a time they were also in Lovvu.

The reason for parental objection of any kind could be becos parenthood instills an objecting behaviour so that kids will have improve their defending themselves skills for strengthening of species to ensure survival of the fittest.

Many a times parents will object to many things even during childhood and children usually do respond either by voicing their opinion thru a tantrum or as they age they device a way to get out of the situation without a major confrontation.

So it seems like parental objection gives the 'boot camp' training to kids to face adversity in life for them to finally make their own decisions.

Everything in the human existence actually is still very much at a primitive level if we go deeper into it.

So next time when a parents says NO to us..dont get too stressed up....take it as natures way of making us have a fight or flight response for survival of fittest in the continuation of species race.


Note:These are my unproven thoughts ..so it might not be 100% correct but just my opinion.

 

[tbs]

Clearly the OP is a bait, after which the poster has disappeared, never to be seen again.

Meanwhile the debate continues ...

hi

this happens in many threads...even thread opener has serious questions....he never get proper reply....its goes like blah blah...

finally the poster disappeared suddenly....but this blah blah continues...

 

[Raji Ram]

Clearly the OP is a bait, after which the poster has disappeared, never to be seen again.

Meanwhile the debate continues ...

There is a saying in Tamil: veRum vAykku mella aval!

(i.e) some rice flakes to chew for an empty mouth! - Translation sounds funny! :lol:

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Sir,

Technically possible! But practically? :noidea:

1. Can a non brahmin undergo Samasrayanam? Which Guru will do it?

2. Will the boy's parents willingly give their son in adoption to an Iyengar family?

I am expecting replies for my Qs from Sri Auh. :ranger:

P.S: Let us not bother about the OP right now!!

 

[Brahmanyan]

Interesting topic, but no relevance in today's world of free mixed marriages. How ever I wish to share the following information.
Conversion among castes for the sake of getting married is not known, how ever if a person is desirous of becoming linked to the Sri Vaishnava Sampradayam, he can approach a Sadacharya for getting initiated (SamAshrayanam) and thereby become a "SriVaishnava".

SamAshrayanam means 'to approach (Acharya) with all sincerity'. In a nut shell, during 'Samashrayanam', the Acharya initiates a person, irrespective of caste, creed or sex, as his sishya. It is a commitment from the disciple that he or she will live as per the wishes of the Acharya. Thus the person gets the link to the Sri Vaishnava parampara. During Samashrayanam, Pancha Samskaram (five Purifications) is performed and he becomes a "Sri Vaishnava".

It seems some other community members were also using the surname "Ayyangar". Full name of Raja of Panagal a Velama Kshatriya by birth was Panaganti Ramarayaningar (later Raja of Panagal) Chief Minister or Premier of Madras Presidency(1921–1926). Among the previous generations in Sourashtra Community in Madurai the surnames of Ayyangar and Ayyar were commonly used. Sri Rama Venkatramayyangar. Sri Paarundaan Ayyangar (1921) were from that community.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[Raji Ram]

........ SamAshrayanam means 'to approach (Acharya) with all sincerity'. In a nut shell, during 'Samashrayanam', the Acharya initiates a person, irrespective of caste, creed or sex, as his sishya. It is a commitment from the disciple that he or she will live as per the wishes of the Acharya. Thus the person gets the link to the Sri Vaishnava parampara. During Samashrayanam, Pancha Samskaram (five Purifications) is performed and he becomes a "Sri Vaishnava". .............

Dear Sir,

You have answered one of my Qs. Thank you very much.

 

[Raji Ram]

For enlightenment!

What is Samashrayanam?

SamAshrayanam means 'to approach (AchAryA) with all sincerity'. In a nut shell, during 'SamAshrayanam',

the AchAryA initiates a person, irrespective of caste, creed or sex, as his sishyA. It is a commitment from

the disciple that he or she will live as per the wishes of the AchAryA. Thus the person gets the link to the

Sri Vaishnava paramparA. During SamAshrayanam, Pancha SamskAram (five Purifications) is performed

and he becomes a "Sri VaishnavA".

The five samskArams and its main purposes are:

1. thApam: To emboss the impressions of heated Sankha and ChakrA on the arms (near the shoulders).

2. pundram:To wear the dvAdasa Urdhva pundram (12 Thiruman & Srichoornam)

3. nAmam:To be christened by the AchAryA afresh as"RAmAnuja dAsan"(addition of 'dAsA'at the end of ones name)

to indicate that one is forever a servant of the Supreme Lord Sriman NArAyanA and BhagavAnRAmAnujA.

4. manthram:To get the initiation of "Rahasya Traya MantrAs" - AshtAksharam, Dvayam and charama slokam.

5. Ijyai:To learn the worship of Sriman nArAyanA in proper form (Bhagavad ThiruvArAdhanam).

Source: Samasrayanam - Saranagathi.org

P.S: I think the nAmam will be Y shaped!!

Picture source: Google images.

 

[auh]

Dear Sir,

Technically possible! But practically? :noidea:

1. Can a non brahmin undergo Samasrayanam? Which Guru will do it?

2. Will the boy's parents willingly give their son in adoption to an Iyengar family?

Dear Madam,

I saw this only now, and from the other posts subsequent to yours, pt. no. 1 has been answered. Shri Vaagmi, or Shri Nara, or, if I am not mistaken, Shri Sarang would be more apt to reply to this point. However since you have asked me, yes, anyone who surrenders to Sriman Narayana is eligible to undergo Samasrayanam. There are Acharyas who would perform this.

As regards to q2, I cannot answer the question, in all fairness, as it is purely an individual and collective decision of the family (families) concerned. But, if there are parents who are willing enough then surely it is not an impossible feat.

 

[prasad1]

Coming back to the op.
How many TN's orthodox Brahmin family is going to accept this "converted" brahmin as authentic brahmin in their family?