is it possible to convert into a brahmin ?

[tks]

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Dear TKS ji,

This is one more point I have noted that many TBs think that NBs have TB envy..that is that deep inside a NB secretly desires just like how you mentioned that a feminist might be suffering from Penis Envy(Orthodox minded members please note that the word Penis Envy is an accepted psychological term..its not obscene)

Let me share with you about this fact.

May be in India people maintain their caste identities and make it known..but out here where I grew up I did not even know about caste till I was some 17 years old when some classmate asked me what is my caste...I had no idea and went home and asked my parents.

I also did not know about the existence of a community called TBs cos I thought that everyone from TN is a Tamilian.We did not go to temple as kids till late teens cos my father did not believe in idol worship so our exposure to the existence of TBs were very limited.

So tell me how can a NB especially like me have any form of TB envy when I did not even know a TB existed?
We were not taught about caste at home..I only knew that dad is Tamilian and mum is Punjabi..thats all.
Caste was never spoken about.

When I went to India that is when I was exposed to TBs and that was the very 1st time I knew that TBs viewed themselves as different from other Tamilians..a TB Iyengar friend told me she has German Aryan roots and not a Dravidian..that did not change my perception of her cos I felt she was entitled to believe what she wanted to belief..she was a real close friend and her parents too were very nice.

Now coming to all these envy etc..envy/jealousy is a very negative emotion which leaves a very bad effect on the human mind.

So I see no valid reason why a NB should envy a TB or anyone for that matter.

Its like how some people think that its blondes that have all the fun and brunettes dont.
Some blond must have made that up!LOL

Each human is born with what our Karma had dictated..what is there is envy anyone?

Many a times when we ask people what would you like to change and some will say they wish they were prettier..richer..sexier..thinner ..more intelligent etc."

If you ask me what I would like to change in myself..my answer is NOTHING.I love the way I am..I am unique..no one can be like me (not to brag..but I am very happy whenever I look at myself in the mirror!LOL)

so TKS ji..do you really think any right thinking human will envy anyone else?

To really make anyone envious a person needs to have good looks,brains,height, a good body,brains, a personality and a good position in life..only then a slight envy can actually exists.

Most people who envy others are lacking something in themselves..may be they are not perfect 10s and need to feel jealous of others.

BTW some of us female humans will admire a strapping 6 feet 2, Greek God looking guy who is intelligent, well built,strong and sexy. These types are seldom found anyway in most communities..so what is there to envy anyone?

I really wonder why you think NBs have TB envy? Give me one valid reason.

I hope you read all my responses to get the context. Again I did not make a general statement .. Please re-read!

The issues of any negative emotions arise only out of ignorance in the mind and in this instance in anyone who thinks caste and its rules are sacrosanct.

First of there are no NB or B except in the mind of those that give special status to these things.

So when you ask a valid reason why an NB has B envy all I can say is that the answer is in your question itself.

I do not want your name anymore than you want my name. That does not mean I disrespect your name. I simply am fine with the name given by my parents. Now if I thought your name is superior and if I thought I can never get your name then and only then I will get the envy. I am fine being called a TB for whatever it means. I am fine with someone calling themselves some other identity say a Naidu. It is no different than a name and perhaps stands for some cultural differences.

In fact the reason I asked the first question to you in my series of question in my previous post is if you are conscious of a person's caste when you meet them online or in real life (notwithstanding the fact that you never knew about such a term until you were in India).

So for a person with good self esteem there is no reason to want to change or no reason to envy or no reason to dole out criticism.

If self esteem is low then all kinds of issues will come up.

With the specific individual I cited the person was very upset seeing that thread on Ganesha !

And he believed in caste hierarchy and thought he can never achieve that status. Then that becomes the reason for negative emotion.

The fix in this instance is not external to the person. If the person refuses to give importance to caste, stop seeing others in terms of their caste with significance and accepts himself with good self esteem there will no issues of envy

 

[renuka]

So when you ask a valid reason why an NB has B envy all I can say is that the answer is in your question itself.

Dear TKS ji,

Lets be fair to each other here.

You start off by saying that a NB has TB envy like a feminist who has penis envy and cant tolerate a Yagnopavit on a Vigraham of Lord Ganesha..you were directly implying that some NB have this envy problem.

So it is only natural I ask you give me one valid reason why anyone in the right frame of mind would envy anyone else....in this case a TB since we are dealing with TBs here.

When you throw back the question to me ..it seems only this:

1)you are having fun beating about the bush

2)you have no answers

3)you are not honest


You are free to choose what suits you the best.

Just like closet gays..there are also closet casteists in all communities...Brahmin or Non Brahmin.

I think my point is very clear.

Thank you.

 

[tks]

Dear TKS ji,

Lets be fair to each other here.

You start off by saying that a NB has TB envy like a feminist who has penis envy and cant tolerate a Yagnopavit on a Vigraham of Lord Ganesha..you were directly implying that some NB have this envy problem.

So it is only natural I ask you give me one valid reason why anyone in the right frame of mind would envy anyone else....in this case a TB since we are dealing with TBs here.

When you throw back the question to me ..it seems only this:

1)you are having fun beating about the bush

2)you have no answers

3)you are not honest


You are free to choose what suits you the best.

Thank you.

Dr Renu

After posing the question I answered it for you.

Please read it fully. There was no beating around the bush.

I told you that if one is caste conscious and if one were subscribe to the concept of hierarchy that is not changeable then that person will have all kinds of issues ..including envy

The external manifestation of this is often criticism of the one that is unattainable in their mind. So in this case that takes the form of unjust B bashing or male bashing or whatever

I even told you in my view what the solution is for the person I came across


What is it that you do not understand in the above set of statements?

 

[renuka]

Dr Renu

After posing the question I answered it for you.

Please read it fully. There was no beating around the bush.

I told you that if one is caste conscious and if one were subscribe to the concept of hierarchy that is not changeable then that person will have all kinds of issues ..including envy

The external manifestation of this often criticism of the one that is unattainable in their mind.

I even told you in my view what the solution is.


What is it that you do not understand in the above set of statements?

Dear TKS ji,

I had edited my posts..I added a line on closet casteisim.

Take a look.

 

[tks]

Dear TKS ji,

I had edited my posts..I added a line on closet casteisim.

Take a look.

Please read my post again and my response.. I have given you a manifestation of the closet casteism

By the way, casteism is not exclusive domain of just Brahmins just like racism is not exclusive domain of Whites

 

[renuka]

Please read my post again and my response.. I have given you a manifestation of the closet casteism

By the way, casteism is not exclusive domain of just Brahmins just like racism is not exclusive domain of Whites

Dear TKS ji,

I thought what I wrote was very clear..I wrote this:

Just like closet gays..there are also closet casteists in all communities...Brahmin or Non Brahmin.

Didnt I say that both Brahmins and Non Brahmins can be closet casteist?

So the need for your line

"casteism is not exclusive domain of just Brahmins"

does not really arise.

BTW I hope we can be specific at times..cos we keep grouping all Brahmins under one group..as I said in another post to another member that a TB is a Brahmin but not all Brahmins are TBs and the mindset of other Brahmins can really differ from an average TB.

 

[tks]

Dear TKS ji,

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BTW I hope we can be specific at times..cos we keep grouping all Brahmins under one group..as I said in another post to another member that a TB is a Brahmin but not all Brahmins are TBs and the mindset of other Brahmins can really differ from an average TB.

The truth is except for argument or debate here I really do not care for any groupings. My thesis that I tried to say in all these posts is that if one were to take these caste names seriously, and subscribe to a hierarchy as a sacrosanct thing then there will be issues always.

Why do you want to do any grouping.. what is the point? I can tell you that many so called TBs are not alike. I personally have more in common as a person with some friends who are white. I know very little about Iyengar way of life for example though they are also TB.

That is why except for the fun of debate there is no need to group people and pay respect to caste ideas since it is an expression of human weakness

 

[Raji Ram]

I have received a post in my mail box by the person who started OP ...May be it is still under review..

​WOW... I am also eager to see it here in this thread! :ranger:

 

[Raji Ram]

I do not know about maintenance of poonool madam , you might be correct . In all my lifetime I wore it for four or five events for a few hours and promptly threw it away. I never went thru a poonool ceremony.Also I was tutored what I have to do while undergoing my marriage ceremony . vaguely you have to catch your nose /nose and ear also sometimes.when instructed by vadhyars.ladies do not throw away their thaalis as there is some gold and sentiment attached to it. some hang it on hangers or bed stand to wear it for a few hours during day if required for events.only in films there is a lot of thaali sentiment though.

Dear Krish Sir,

I know one tambram gentleman who was about to 'catch' the sAsthrigaL's nose and scared him, when he said, 'mookkaip pidiyungO'! :lol:

Many mAmis take away their thAli along with their wrist watch, while going for security check in airports. So far, I have managed

NOT to take it off, during all my trips to the U S of A, and I found that all the officers understand and regard the Indian sentiments.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Madam,

1. It is not the question of increase or decrease in BP or Chloestrol. It is the question of integrity. Your friend's attitude indirectly conveys the message that you are inferior to her. I don't mean that you should not be cordial. Having cordial relationship is one thing; retaining integrity, prestige and religious discipline is another thing.

2. Will you allow your NV friends, if any, to sit with you for lunch and dinner regularly?...........

Dear Sir,

1. Where is the question of integrity here? I respect her views and don't consider that she is treating me as an untouchable!

That is all. I don't accept that we are superiors just because we are born brahmins! If she has her 'ego' let her have it!!

I have certain religious disciplines and follow them too.

2. You will be surprised to know that my friends who eat NV stuff do NOT prepare any of those when I go to eat in their houses.

P.S: I had written about my dad's Muslim friend who never used to eat NV stuff and was a teetotaller too! :thumb:

 

[tks]

Dear TKS ji,

.
.
.

BTW I hope we can be specific at times..cos we keep grouping all Brahmins under one group..as I said in another post to another member that a TB is a Brahmin but not all Brahmins are TBs and the mindset of other Brahmins can really differ from an average TB.

I have one more comment and hence another post instead of editing the previous one.

Statements like "mindset of other Brahmins can really differ from an average TB" comes across really strange to me.

I have no idea what the mindset of any non TB Brahmins is , please tell us what that is.
I have no idea if what an average TB mindset is - please tell us what that is
This generalization comes across the same as comments about Iyengars to me.

If you feel you are a NB why would you want to classify the B types?

 

[renuka]

Dear Madam,

I fully appreciate your broadmindedness, broad-heartedness, ultra-modern thinking, liberal thinking etc etc. But madam, would you readily agree to your son's choice without inquiring the girl's character, conduct, personality etc? Would you not be concerned about her moral uprightness? Would you not ascertain that your would-be DIL is indeed capable of being your son's wife, that she is a match for him, that she would truly love him and be with him in all circumstances, good or bad? If you would, then it would certainly take some time to ascertain all this and take some efforts also. You will be required to make many enquiries, subject your would-be dil to some simple tests, not necessarily harrassing etc. don't you think so? Would you not make such simple queries about her family background, her place of origin, her likes and dislikes etc? And if you feel she needs to change in some way to adapt herself to fit into your family, would you not advise her accordingly? I think you would.

But I am sure, after ascertaining to yourself, after being satisfied that your son's choice is indeed right, then you would not interfere in their matters and would give them the freedom to be their selves.

Dear Sir,

I value a person for what he/she is at the present state.

Past can be different from present and present can be different from the future.

For me its simple..I prefer my son to have a love marriage preferably a registered marriage cos I dont think I have the patience to sit thru a traditional wedding but which girl will agree? All girls dream of a fairy tale wedding!LOL


BTW since you mentioned about Moral Uprightness..Moral uprightness in the Indian code of conduct for a bride is always based on the presence or absence of so called "Virgnity".

Virginity is not necessarily moral uprightness.Moral uprightness is much more than that.

I feel virginity is a personal matter and its up to the couple to decide on that and I am surely not going to get into Gynecological mode to determine that!LOL


Why should I do any simple test on a future DIL? She is not a cow or cattle to be tested or some lab rat to be tested. She is a human and needs to be respected.


For me there is no need for anyone to adapt to fit into my family cos I would not want son and DIL to stay with me..I would like a couple to have their own privacy and learn about each other by staying on their own.

Just like I would not change a bit for anyone ever I cant impose rules on anyone either.

But on legal matters I would prefer if the couple were to sign a pre nuptial agreement..that again is left to them to decide if they would want to sign one..its advisable to prevent a messy settlements in case of divorce.


BTW I am a very simple person..I dont like to trouble others and others should not trouble me.

As long my son is happy with a girl he can marry her. Its not me who is marrying her!LOL


Whether the marriage works out or not is a risk everyone takes these days..both love or arranged can fail. That is not in my hands.

 

[renuka]

I have one more comment and hence another post instead of editing the previous one.

Statements like "mindset of other Brahmins can really differ from an average TB" comes across really strange to me.

I have no idea what the mindset of any non TB Brahmins is , please tell us what that is.
I have no idea if what an average TB mindset is - please tell us what that is
This generalization comes across the same as comments about Iyengars to me.

If you feel you are a NB why would you want to classify the B types?

I would like to maintain civility..so I choose not to answer these questions..cos I could be misunderstood as being Anti TB and I dont want that.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renu,

You are so modern in your views and so why should you pay for your son's wedding? Some students who fall in love in the U S of A,

come over to India and share the wedding expenses, since they earn in $$$. I know two such couple who got married in Sing. Chennai! :thumb:

Parents were so during the wedding. There was also a note in the reception card 'No gifts please!'.

Dear RR ji,

In Msia..the girl's side pays for the engagement and the boys side pays for the wedding.

That is how the system works here.

I feel that system works fine and so far so good.

The No gifts part is not fair to the guest cos how to eat at a wedding for free when we do not give anything in return? Its not an Anna Dhanam.

If we are going to eat we have to give a gift or some cash so that no Karmic Debt is formed.

I usually do not attend functions that say No Gifts cos I dont want debt in anyway.

 

[Raji Ram]

........... I usually do not attend functions that say No Gifts cos I dont want debt in anyway.

Dear Renu,

I can't avoid functions in Sing. Chennai because of the huge circle of relatives and friends! I prefer to give cash gifts only because

I know that the unwanted gifts in kind will be circulating as gifts for other weddings! In Vizag, we friends used to pool money and

get something the newly weds want. When I went as a bride, I chose a dressing table (Rs. 250) from the computer department and

a sewing machine from the officers' club (Rs.750). They are still with me and all my dresses are stitched in that good old Usha machine!

 

[Raji Ram]

..... In Msia..the girl's side pays for the engagement and the boys side pays for the wedding. ......

Dear Renu,

For tambrams it is the reverse. Boy's side spends for the engagement and girl's side the major portion of the wedding expenses.

The wedding madisAr saree, one set of thirumAngalyam, gold necklace / long chain and nalungu items are bought by the boy's side.

And if the wedding is in some other city then the boy's side gives a reception in the city where they reside. So the expenses of the

wedding might be like 70% - 30% for the girl's side and the boy's side respectively. Now a days the share is 50-50 too at times.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renu,

For tambrams it is the reverse. Boy's side spends for the engagement and girl's side the major portion of the wedding expenses.

The wedding madisAr saree, one set of thirumAngalyam, gold necklace / long chain and nalungu items are bought by the boy's side.

And if the wedding is in some other city then the boy's side gives a reception in the city where they reside. So the expenses of the

wedding might be like 70% - 30% for the girl's side and the boy's side respectively. Now a days the share is 50-50 too at times.

Dear RR ji,

Here for the engagement the girl side pays but the saree worn by the girl for engagement is bought by the boy and also the jewelery worn by the girl is bought by the boy.I got 2 sets of jewelery from husband side..one for engagement and one more for marriage.Engagement rings are also bought by boys side.

Wedding its 100% by the boys side expenses.

Saree and Dhoti/Kurta set for girls parents are bought by the grooms side.

The gold ring and garment for the Mappillai tholan is also bought by the grooms side.

Girls side buys the groom his wedding attire and a gold chain....thats all is the girl expenses in the wedding.


Both sides usually give wedding reception dinners on different days.

But this format is followed by those who do not have the dowry system..for those who follow the dowry system like some others castes out here....the girl side pays for the wedding.

 

[tks]

I would like to maintain civility..so I choose not to answer these questions..cos I could be misunderstood as being Anti TB and I dont want that.

I am being intentionally intense while being civil (also).
In all the work place issues I have ever had to intervene associated with prejudice, the issues had genesis in generalization of a community as a whole.

I think character strengths and weaknesses are somewhat uniformly distributed across all grouping human mind can think of. To pass judgement otherwise is a form of prejudice.


The differences in cultural activities (like how a social event is celebrated), religious tradition (how a function is conducted, what kind of Namam one may put ) and food (emphasis and nature of preparation) varies from group to group.

Using generalization of negative traits across a whole community (for any community or group) is actually an expression of prejudice and it is not even a closeted prejudice.

 

[renuka]

Dear Brahmchari ji,

I was thinking over what you asked me earlier in a post that would I run some test on my future DIL to see if she is suitable for my son etc.

Ok I think partly you asked me this question cos the scenario differs here from India.

In India love marriages are not really a norm and those who are in Lovvu hide it from their parents and only when they want to marry they drop the bombshell to their parents..so parents become worried and anxious cos they dont know their child's boyfriend or girlfriend.

Out here where I stay..Love marriages are very common..in fact more common than arranged marriages.Only when one cant find a boyfriend or girlfriend..parents resort to an arranged marriage.

Children too do not hide from their parents who their boyfriend/girlfriend is..mostly people date their co students in college or co workers in office who have a similar background with them..in a normal scenario the rich date the rich ...middle class date middle class and so on.

The boyfriends and girlfriends are also introduced to parents and families too become friends ..the boyfriend/girlfriend is almost part of the family before marriage talks take place.

Some date their boyfriends/girlfriends in college and get engaged in college and then marry once they start work.

So the parents of both sides have ample time to get to know their perspective son or daughter in law.

Out here children only hide their relationships from their parents if they are dating a person from a different race or religion cos that usually poses problems..mainly becos out here when one marries a Muslim its mandatory by law for the Non Muslim to convert to Islam.

Otherwise if both are Hindus..there is seldom problems.

 

[tbs]

hi

lovuu is different from caste/religion.....if its a real lovvu....get married and start life as soon as possible...if caste/religion is

important...then just forget lovvu and marry a girl within same caste...other wise live like brahmachari/devadass...which ever

is convenient....

 

[Raji Ram]

hi

lovuu is different from caste/religion.....if its a real lovvu....get married and start life as soon as possible...if caste/religion is

important...then just forget lovvu and marry a girl within same caste...other wise live like brahmachari/devadass...which ever

is convenient....

Dear TBS Sir,

Experience talks!!

 

[renuka]

Dear RR ji,

When I was in India 2 Bihari Brahmins(A guy and girl) from a village in Bihar ran away from home and came to meet their Bihari friend who was studying in Manipal and asked him to help get them married.

Both were Bihari Brahmins but some different sub caste and their families did not allow the marriage so both of them ran to South India to get married.Both got married in a nearby temple.

I remember the Hotel room was decorated nicely for their Suhaag Raat.

The girl looked so shy and innocent..the guy also looked shy and innocent..I was wondering from where they got the guts to run away from home..something even modern girls dare not do cos no one wants to bring disrepute to parents.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Renu,

It is not only the caste / sub-caste difference that bothers the parents. It is also the family status!

Now a days most of the tambrams are more modern in their outlook and many families have at least one IC or IR wedding.

Our sAstrigaLs are also modern and change the American groom / bride as Shankar / Shyamala and perform the typical

brahmin wedding with mAppiLLai azhaippu, Kasi yAthra, oonjal, kanyA dhAnam, mAngalya dhAraNam (with panchakachcham

and madisAr for the groom and bride respectively), saptapadi and other homams.

In my extended family, the bride chosen was from Thailand and only her dad came for the wedding at Sing. Chennai! So the

mAmA of the groom adopted the girl (!) and then gave her in marriage to his nephew, keeping his 'daughter' on his laps!

 

[renuka]

Dear Renu,

It is not only the caste / sub-caste difference that bothers the parents. It is also the family status!

Now a days most of the tambrams are more modern in their outlook and many families have at least one IC or IR wedding.

Our sAstrigaLs are also modern and change the American groom / bride as Shankar / Shyamala and perform the typical

brahmin wedding with mAppiLLai azhaippu, Kasi yAthra, oonjal, kanyA dhAnam, mAngalya dhAraNam (with panchakachcham

and madisAr for the groom and bride respectively), saptapadi and other homams.

In my extended family, the bride chosen was from Thailand and only her dad came for the wedding at Sing. Chennai! So the

mAmA of the groom adopted the girl (!) and then gave her in marriage to his nephew, keeping his 'daughter' on his laps!

Dear RR ji,

That tradition of bride sitting on father's lap must have started purely due to child marriages in the past..but nowadays brides are adults and that too a pencil slim figure or a 50kg Taj Mahal is not easily found..can the father actually bear the weight of an adult overweight daughter these days?

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Renu,
Actually one 'chOni' mAmA fainted when his plump daughter sat on his laps during her wedding! :faint: