Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

[SuryaKasyapa]

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I have one question to ask.

How many Dalit Celebrities,(who thmselves declared so) who came to occupy Very High position availing the reservation and other facilities really uplifted further brethren? many of them enjoyed the comforts of positions , chose spouse from Still richer families, educated their children in foreign soil or in the costlier schools and colleges in Indial, made lots of wealth for them.But in public, they will preach for the status of the unfortunate brethren. By seeing these, I sometimes feel that many similar personalities really want the unfortunate to be like that for ever, so that they can go on preaching for them and enjoy own comforts.

( Pls don,t blame me for generalisation, I have no courage to disclose the specifics.But enlightened readers can understand, because they all read newspapers ,magazines, watch Tv , see and hear meetings and sammelans etc.)

Greetings-- praying for unity and equality for all.

 

[happyhindu]

I have one question to ask.

How many Dalit Celebrities,(who thmselves declared so) who came to occupy Very High position availing the reservation and other facilities really uplifted further brethren? many of them enjoyed the comforts of positions , chose spouse from Still richer families, educated their children in foreign soil or in the costlier schools and colleges in Indial, made lots of wealth for them.But in public, they will preach for the status of the unfortunate brethren. By seeing these, I sometimes feel that many similar personalities really want the unfortunate to be like that for ever, so that they can go on preaching for them and enjoy own comforts.

( Pls don,t blame me for generalisation, I have no courage to disclose the specifics.But enlightened readers can understand, because they all read newspapers ,magazines, watch Tv , see and hear meetings and sammelans etc.)

Greetings-- praying for unity and equality for all.

Dunno to whom you were asking this question.

If anyone can reply, then my input is this::

This question does not apply to those who are interested in spiritual studies (irrespective of 'caste').

 

[Nara]

How many Dalit Celebrities,(who thmselves declared so) who came to occupy Very High position availing the reservation and other facilities really uplifted further brethren?

Hello SK, Greetings, but don't you think they are our brethren as well, just as much. Why put the entire burden on those who are able to clime out of the pit into which they were put by the rest of the society.

Also, when some of these "uplifted" dalits spend their life serving their community, they are also blamed as playing the blame game, fanning the fires etc. -- Thiru Mavalavan, Ravikumar, etc.

TB's can gain the right to criticize empowered Dalits for not doing their bit only when they reject the caste system outright.

Cheers!

 

[nahp]

So easy to pass the blame to others, so difficult to look within one's own...

One creates the system and moves on...But when the others in the queue behind fight with those behind them, the system creator washes his hands off, criticizes them, blames them. The system creator fails to realize his gurus are still keeping the system alive..

It is not the question of blaming somebody. It is the question of taking responsibility to eradicate the difference.
If you want to proceed in that direction just forget about the gurus. Because they are keeping the system alive in only their premises.Hardly it may be 1% of the total society.
But just think over the differences existing between B.C and S.C/S.T (I just don't want to mention the castes name) especially in the remote villages of Tamil Nadu / India.It is purely because of the politicians (who are the ultimate beneficiary) who will loose their job if the difference vanishes.
Also I agree that mindset of the people plays an important role.
N.B: For your information in India only an unwritten caste system exists in christian communities also. (BC christian AND SC christian).For knowing these kind of things please practically visit such down trodden villages and mingle with the people to extact the fact.
Thank you for your response
Regards
nahp

 

[happyhindu]

It is not the question of blaming somebody. It is the question of taking responsibility to eradicate the difference.
If you want to proceed in that direction just forget about the gurus. Because they are keeping the system alive in only their premises.Hardly it may be 1% of the total society.
But just think over the differences existing between B.C and S.C/S.T (I just don't want to mention the castes name) especially in the remote villages of Tamil Nadu / India.It is purely because of the politicians (who are the ultimate beneficiary) who will loose their job if the difference vanishes.
Also I agree that mindset of the people plays an important role.
N.B: For your information in India only an unwritten caste system exists in christian communities also. (BC christian AND SC christian).For knowing these kind of things please practically visit such down trodden villages and mingle with the people to extact the fact.
Thank you for your response
Regards
nahp

Nahp,

The points you have raised has already been discussed in old threads - request you to read them.

And yes thankyou i have lived quite a part of my life in villages and also visit often. A part of my mother's family originally happens to belong to a village in southern tamilnadu.

 

[pvraman]

Dear Smt HH Ji,

Please read the MS again. In what way do you think brahmins "were punished more severely than others". Punishments for others seem more severe.

I will try to compile and write about the punisments may be in my blog here, but I need more time on that. I am afraid it may be a detour from the main topic, if I start here.

Regards

 

[pvraman]

IMHO, as long as we follow different type of worships and beliefs, I am afraid the groupism (may be castism) can not be abolished. The caste system will not be harmful if all the castes are having equal status.

True spritual journey does not require fellow human's acceptance. Upward mobility in society requires wealth and good job profiles. It can be achieved without any fighting or creating hostility.

Why Not?

 

[nachi naga]

re

It's very sad to see some writings by people here,questioning the Kanchi Acharyas.But,then in Kali Yugam,empty vessels make more noises,is very evident.

nachi naga.

 

[Nara]

.....If some amongst so-called 'dalits' are interested in spiritual studies, there is no reason why anyone should stop them.. There is no reason to deny admission for so-called 'dalits' into vedic schools on any grounds...

Hello HH, we are a long way from this. Just look at this small news item from The Hindu.

On the one hand there is anger against missionaries indulging in conversions and yet even now, in the twenty-first century, Dalits are being punished for the crime of demanding to enter temples.

People like Appaiah blame the upper caste NB's for this, but refuse to declare their unequivocal rejection of the caste system that is at the root of this abomination.

The justification for this evil caste system comes from the dharma shashthras whose keepers are Brahmins. So, the effort to eradicate this system also must also come from them, namely, Brahmnical institutions. Until they do that, the ultimate responsibility for events such as these rests squarely upon the Brahmin orthodoxy even though they did not get their hands dirty, and they never do, do they, giving them plausible deniablity.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

........But,then in Kali Yugam,empty vessels make more noises,is very evident.

nachi naga.

Dear Shri Nachi Naga,

You seem to make provocative statements and then never respond to some questions raised on those statements. Then you come up with some vague accusations like the above without naming anybody in particular. What is all this?

Let me raise one post in particular, my post #217 from this thread. May I request you to favor me with an answer?

If you don't to want answer, what is the point of your participation in the discussion?

Expecting your response, cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

It's very sad to see some writings by people here,questioning the Kanchi Acharyas.But,then in Kali Yugam,empty vessels make more noises,is very evident.

nachi naga.

it is also evident that adharma gets propagated as dharma in kali yuga.

kali yuga is the age of ego, false beliefs, falsification of scriptures, etc - thus says the 'bhavishya purana' - and only god knows if the verses in the puranas are authentic or not.

 

[happyhindu]

I will try to compile and write about the punisments may be in my blog here, but I need more time on that. I am afraid it may be a detour from the main topic, if I start here.

ok sure, thanks.

IMHO, as long as we follow different type of worships and beliefs, I am afraid the groupism (may be castism) can not be abolished. The caste system will not be harmful if all the castes are having equal status.

True spritual journey does not require fellow human's acceptance. Upward mobility in society requires wealth and good job profiles. It can be achieved without any fighting or creating hostility.

Why Not?

Castes canot have "equal status" as long as dharmashastras are followed.

Caste system is harmful.

Caste system curtails every human's natural instinct to seek his self; by placing barriers.

Not only that, it opens the doors to vested foreign / anti-state interests.

 

[pvraman]

Dear Smt HH Ji,

Brahmins and Dalits are at both side of the society. One is inside and one is outside the society and both are not in a favorable condition. Brahmins who are in a comfortable position are actually because of their financial status alone, not for the caste system. Similarly there are elite dalits. In the absence of strong spiritual leader like Sri Adi Shankara, Sri Ramanuja & Sri Madhwa Acharyar and in the presence of Modern society, it will be comical if any Brahminical institution reject caste system. The other caste Hindus are in no mood to listen to the very few Conservative Brahmins.

I read Sri Nara's link, Govt should intervene in such instances, and provide work to the rejected Dalits by creating some job opportunities exclusively for Dalits. And lift them out of the miseries. They can very well donate some lands to Dalits. If we don't look up the government then what for Government is there. I see this is the main reason why I see dalits with poor financial status are the receiving end.

Few weeks back, Mr Pazha Karuppiah written a story of a Brahmin girl married to a Dalit person. The plight of the Brahmin girl after the death of her husband due to the actions taken by DMK & DK people is narrated. So, IMHO, it is written on the wall and people should wake up and press govt to shed the fear of votes and do some good job.

IMHO, Blaming brahmins for Dalit's poor state, is a shield to protect the vested interests namely caste leaders, politicians who survive on caste politics. This argument can stretch as for as one wish, but if a brahminical institute declare tomorrow that there is no caste system, the caste Hindus will reject brahminical institute not the caste system. .

Cheers

 

[pvraman]

Recently MK proudly issued Caste Certificate and boasted for doing so. If one wishes to abolish the caste system, the first logical step would be not to ask or register the caste at the time of joining in school and in any forms demanding to know the castes. I am sure in two or 3 decades, the caste will loose its significance.

Cheers

 

[happyhindu]

IMHO, Blaming brahmins for Dalit's poor state, is a shield to protect the vested interests namely caste leaders, politicians who survive on caste politics. This argument can stretch as for as one wish, but if a brahminical institute declare tomorrow that there is no caste system, the caste Hindus will reject brahminical institute not the caste system. .

You are repeating the same things again and again.

First, why don't brahmins reject the caste system - and then see what happens, instead of speculating about politics, other hindus, etc, etc, etc.

No one can deny the presence of scriptures that discriminate blatantly. If brahmins did not write such things, what makes them so afraid to create an 'all-inclusive' society even today...

 

[happyhindu]

Recently MK proudly issued Caste Certificate and boasted for doing so. If one wishes to abolish the caste system, the first logical step would be not to ask or register the caste at the time of joining in school and in any forms demanding to know the castes. I am sure in two or 3 decades, the caste will loose its significance.

Cheers

Politics is only a reflection of how the society is.

The first logical step wud be to first create an all-inclusive society at the grassroots level, at the social level - and then talk about politics.

 

[happyhindu]

Hello HH, we are a long way from this. Just look at this small news item from The Hindu.

On the one hand there is anger against missionaries indulging in conversions and yet even now, in the twenty-first century, Dalits are being punished for the crime of demanding to enter temples.

People like Appaiah blame the upper caste NB's for this, but refuse to declare their unequivocal rejection of the caste system that is at the root of this abomination.

The justification for this evil caste system comes from the dharma shashthras whose keepers are Brahmins. So, the effort to eradicate this system also must also come from them, namely, Brahmnical institutions. Until they do that, the ultimate responsibility for events such as these rests squarely upon the Brahmin orthodoxy even though they did not get their hands dirty, and they never do, do they, giving them plausible deniablity.

Cheers!

Am amazed at the number of excuses posters here give to prevent just one small thing -- admission for everyone to vedic schools - as a small step towards creating an all-inclusive society.

Sad really...

 

[pvraman]

Dear Smt HH Ji,

You are repeating the same things again and again.

There are two points.

1. If Improvement of Daltis present condition is the requirement - I have to repeat my opinion again and again which according to me is the practical solution and others are mere speculations. I have not encountered so for any negative comments on the adverse effect of my solution. As I am expecting a comment instead of rejecting outright.

2. If you argue that Brahmins should reject caste - there is no need to camouflage with the Dalit argument here. That can be discussed without the association of sentiments & with present day's context.

Cheers

 

[pvraman]

Dear Smt HH Ji

Politics is only a reflection of how the society is.

The first logical step wud be to first create an all-inclusive society at the grassroots level, at the social level - and then talk about politics.

I don't think so. Right from the age of Buddism, Islam & British rulers, only the political rulers implement any changes in the society. They are the one really capable of. I am really surprised to see you rejecting outrightly.

Cheers

 

[pvraman]

Dear Smt HH Ji,

Am amazed at the number of excuses posters here give to prevent just one small thing -- admission for everyone to vedic schools - as a small step towards creating an all-inclusive society.

Sad really...

I don't know about other posters, I, who has not attended any vedic school, who has come across some elite dalits without ever attending to any vedic schools, see your argument is not going to lead to an all-inclusive society and its a mere obsession. Today's all inclusive society only can be created not out of the religion but out of financial freedom.

Today, A begger can be made an untouchable by any settled people even if they belong to the same religion or caste. So, financial freedom, employment & timely action by govt only can solve this problem of Dalits.


Cheers

 

[Raghy]

Respectable friends,

Personally it is very painful for me to see the caste related discussions. There is no end to this. Kindly, caste brahmins should note that the caste differences will not be allowed to vanish until the caste brahmin tribe gets completly wiped out. The leadership guiding the society is ineffective and not in line with realities. It is true that most, a very large portion of the caste brahmins do not like to entertain caste based discriminations. But that is not going to be sufficient. The mutts are admant to stay backward; which gives ample opportunities for persons with vested interest to make politics out of it. All these forward thinking caste brahmins will end up victims of the mutt's rigidity. If the mutt's rigidity is not there, then the politics will vanish. In today's situation, parayan and the paarppaan are paying the price. If these two communities join together, whole society will change for better.

கொடுமின் கொள்ளுமின்.

I will always put the money where my mouth is. We have one of each (a boy and a girl). If my daughter likes a parayan, and if it is mutual, then he not only would marry her, but also will get my 100% support from me financially and in anyway required. (But it will be a big fight though. Since we are accomadating, the competition will be very high!). If our son chooses a dalit girl, she becomes our daughter.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Its a new year (2010) but I still see the same caste game being played here.
What are we really going to gain or lose from all this discussions here?
Our minds are getting more divided, each looking for an answer to outdo the other.
Its quite disheartening sometimes to read this thread,I can choose to ignore it but I still read this thread hoping the seeds of love will be sowed here but I only see vadam and prativadam of the dividing kind.

Let us all just think of ourself as One and Make the World a Better Place for You and for Me and and the Entire Human Race.

YouTube - Michael Jackson - Heal The World

 

[Raghy]

Sow.Sri.Renukakarthikayan,

"Its quite disheartening sometimes to read this thread,I can choose to ignore it but I still read this thread hoping the seeds of love will be sowed here but I only see vadam and prativadam here of the dividing kind."

Sow. Renuka, There is no vadham and pridhivadham in this thread. All we see is the grief expressed by the affected and the understanding and pity expressed by the understanding. Only few are different. It is like a fight between loving couple in most situations. My point is, 'if you like her, if you love her, then why the hell you are not marrying her? For God's sake, kindly do it please!'. It will happen one day.

Cheers!

 

[talwan]

Whatever be the caste system presently,our politicians are not going to leave it as it is best used for votes.Let us do our duty/karma or whatever, with full ivolvement and leave the result to Him.
Alwan

 

[SuryaKasyapa]

Its a new year (2010) but I still see the same caste game being played here.
What are we really going to gain or lose from all this discussions here?
Our minds are getting more divided, each looking for an answer to outdo the other.
Its quite disheartening sometimes to read this thread,I can choose to ignore it but I still read this thread hoping the seeds of love will be sowed here but I only see vadam and prativadam of the dividing kind.
[QUOTE=renukakarthikayan

Renukaji,

I am fully concurring with you.

There will not be any use in discussion.Each one will stick to its own opinion.Each one will like the opposing side to change.But ,I have my doubt ,and am convinced many a time ,that it is the people with vested interest to perpetuate the differences go on talking about the differences. They thrive on that, it may be their agenda to keep the divide. Unity ,is really disturbing them. This is going on for many years.Let them be allowed their own happiness in their own way.Let us ignore. Earlier also I pointed out so, when I was convinced that the arguments are going only for sake of arguments.

This forum originated on the platform that all members are TBs and ,right or wrong, because others see them so only. When a brahmin does some good work to society selflessly ,they will argue that he is brahminising the society. Even if some one has all the sincere intentions, the opponents will still give some other meaning to that .So there is no use in trying to convince them.They will never get convinced.We need not mind.

Except for such vested interests, generally people are normally understanding and peace loving, civil,law abiding.Every one of us everyday mingle with different people, different in language,caste, religion, country.We exchange ideas, greetings, share food, visit each other's homes. Help each other in times of need.At ground level unity is there. But villains are always there ,jealous of this.They will be ready to pelt stones to create wedges. Eternal vigilance is the answer. We need not try to please them to get a certificate of good behaviour from the vested interests.

Let us be as we are. As far as we are civil ,conforming to the laws of land where we live, and not harming any body, we will go on like that.It is just futile arguing with the vested interest.There are many other issues for us. The intention is only to improve our lives ,improve our knowledge for our betterment.

Greetings