Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

[happyhindu]

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Saptha,

Shri Raghy, I have given an interpretation to some of the verses quoted by happyhindu from a translated version of Manusmrithi. If, I, an agnyani can see another meaning, imagine the plethora of options before a Panditha! Also, the meanings could be highly contextual, symbolic, and mostly having an inner meaning. If one starts jumping on caste as an ignominy, then, directly or indirectly, it is hurting the sentiments of those who follow them in good faith and for a different purpose. Individual understanding is different, and we can never generalize.

Thanks for mentioning that the meaning of the verses on MS you have posted are your own.

You have 'created contexts' for some plain jane verses that have no inkling of things you mention; and even interpret in terms of physical structure of early humans Very creative i must say..

Anyways have posted some questions for you on that thread, you are welcome to respond.

This is why I strongly object to sweeping generalizations like caste itself is discriminatory.... brahmins were the perpetrators of injustice... and so on. That too, in this forum.
..............................

Yep generalizations are no good. When there is a noted basis, one can certainly question such things.

If not this forum, then elsewhere. Its time some certain brahmins learnt to listen to the other side, within their own home, to understand why they are accussed of certain things.

 

[sapthajihva]

Thanks for mentioning that the meaning of the verses on MS you have posted are your own.

You have 'created contexts' for some plain jane verses that have no inkling of things you mention; and even interpret in terms of physical structure of early humans Very creative i must say..

Anyways have posted some questions for you on that thread, you are welcome to respond.

Yep generalizations are no good. When there is a noted basis, one can certainly question such things.

If not this forum, then elsewhere. Its time some certain brahmins learnt to listen to the other side, within their own home, to understand why they are accussed of certain things.

I have explained the process by which I interpreted those, not just the literal alone!!!

You can read my response at your leisure.

The noted basis must have some consistency and logic to go with. Those explanations that do not concur with shruthis have to be discarded and others should be inferred.

Questioning should be to clarify, and not to impose.

 

[kunjuppu]

saptha, anand, happy, nara,

pardon me for intervening.

i think, we all agree, that our beliefs are based on our preferences, experiences and convictions.

i think that there is a better chance for the proverbial camel to enter the eye of the needle, than for any of us here, to change our views, based on what the proponents of opposing views say.

atleast if we agree on that, then we can go ahead and explain what we believe, from our viewpoint.

personally i do not like manu. but there are others like anand or saptha, who venerate him.

to some manu is the root cause of casteism. to others he was the architect of an ideal society based on division of labour or something like that.

in modern context, i think manu is not followed because people have found him irrelevant. which is why he has not a majority of supporters.

people, i think, flock to leaders and principles that give them a chance for betterment, spiritually or materially. this is human nature.

in this context, i think the arguements presented by you 4 is a draw. no one is wrong. no one is right.

i can only feel the heat going up. i wish to dowse it with some cold banal note like this.

thank you.

 

[Nara]

Yes Saptha, I missed this one. My excuse is I was on a red-eye flight on Dec 31st night and pretty sleepy on the 1st.

Ok, let me tackle this one as best as I can.

....But regardless of our acceptance, the eternal truth of the Vedhas do not become a falsity.

If I may ask you, what is your perspective of the universe and the happenings in light of the cause and effect phenomena?

The eternal truth of Vedhas is dogma, no different from the claims of many Christians that every word in bible is god's word and therefore inerrant, and a similar claim about Quran by the muslims. You may think of the Vedhas to be eternally true, but I hope you are not expecting me to accept it.

I have stated my perspective earlier. I believe in the scientific process and what comes out of this process. I am agnostic about superior power - i.e. humans lack the knowledge to be sure of the existence of such an entity. I am an atheist with respect to personal gods, the ones that listen to prayers and grant wishes, both small like passing an exam or curing cancer, and big like moksham from samsara.

In this respect, it is no great accomplishment for god to appear in front of those who already have an ocean of faith, like Prahlladha or Dhuruvan. To appear in front of someone like me and proving his existence will be something special.

Why he does not do that? Why should he demand faith in the first place. That does not seem like a reasonable thing for a compassionate god to demand. So, the logical conclusion is such a god is just imagination of fertile minds eons ago.

Any claims about Athma based on Vedhas is alright for the faithful, but expecting the rest of us to accept this without any evidence but the words of the Vedhas is simply unreasonable. Refusing to accept Vedhas as the final word is not narrow-minded, accepting it in the absence of any solid evidence and only the words of some people who in turn relied on some more people is downright naive.

What is the vested interest for the Brahmins!? What do the Brahmins gain from this? Kindly enlighten me?

Brahmins gained the material support of everyone else. They got to be served hand and foot by the Shudras for that was their duty, they got the respect and economic support from Vaishyas and protection from the Kshathriyas. Since Shudras are forbidden from owning property and weapons, the system worked just fine for the upper three varnas.

My point all along is Varna/caste system does not offer any advantage that cannot be had without it. If I understand you correctly, your answer is it is useful for determining the dharma one must follow for spiritual development. But this is just your view and is not universally accepted even within the Vedantins. There is reams of arguments between you and HH to prove this.

So, your view of Varna/Jati being useful for spiritual development is just one interpretation that is challenged within the community of the faithful. So, as a man of no faith, I have to ask you to first reconcile the differences within the community of the faithful Vedantins to which you belong. In my opinion, in as much as I do not believe in life after death, the whole claim of spiritual benefits to come in a future life is nothing but a palace built on speculation.

In the meantime, one conclusion we can arrive at, not very quickly I think, is that there is absolutely nothing the varna/jati system offers for our current life (the only life in my POV) that will be denied in the absence of this system.

Cheers!

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri.Sapthjhiva, Namaskarams.

“You are right. Dharma is like the core logic of a program. So the language can change, the logic remains. As regars types of dharma, there are general dharmas and specific dharmas. Normally, general dharmas prevail, and specific dharmas are situational.

'Do not tell lies' is a general dharma, but if the truth endangers a good athma, then act accordingly to save the life is the special dharma.”

We have agreed 100% on the requirement to follow dharma. Let us not dwell on situational dharma. In general, let us follow Dharma.

“IMO, varna is by birth and hence it is no more a personal choice. Given the current scenario, it is not surprising that the situation is unpleasant for brahmins.”

Sri.Sapthajhiva, In my opinion, every single person at different times follow one of the three varnas namely brahma, kshatriya or vaisya varnas, based on the guna and karma; if that same person indulge in adharmic or unlawful activities, then that same person follow sudhra varna during that action. So, kindly allow me completely disagree with the assertion that varna is due to birth. Since we are speaking about ideals, in my opinion, there can be no such thing as a separate brahmana varna.

“Protection is sustenance. If a brahmin does his nithyakarmas and anushtanams and adhyayanams, hardly any time is left to accumulate for existence. It is where the dharma of the society comes in. By protection, I meant co-existence.”

Sri.Sapthajhiva, A brahmin performs nithya karma and anushtanas for the elevation of his own athman. Why should the society protect the Brahmin for conducting rites to elevate his own athman? Does this demand not sound completely selfish? If the society needs the Brahmin to conduct any rites for the betterment of the society, by all means, he should charge the society; the society has an obligation to pay if the society wants it. If a part of the society decides to live on others labour, trouble starts immediately. A learned Brahmin should know better.
Protection is not co-existence. I co-exist with Australians- I earn my keep, I pay taxes, I kick butts now and again, I hug the girls at work when ever I feel like it; in general I am considered as an asset to the society. That is co-existence.

“Since, the brahmin is one with material detachment (read as impartial) and well versed in dharma shasthras, he is the best person to guide the society!”

I hope you meant this sentence. Do you see the Indian society well guided? I will not accept Islamic invasion and British invasions as a reason. Why? If the society was well guided, those invaders would have become buzzard meat at the time of invasion. East India company would have become bankrupt in the first month of ‘businesses’ in India. Why those things did not happen? There was a clear lack of fore sight in the society. Wasn’t Varna system at its glory before Islamic invasion? The varna system failed. That’s why the defence was breached resulting in millions of rape, death and slavery;a mountain was named ‘Hindu Kush’.

Sri.sapthajhiva, I like to address about dharma, the only thing we agreed upon. Where is the dharma in discriminating the next person on the basis of birth? Where is the dharma when the person who could properly guide the society, fails to place all the persons in equal footing? Where is the dharma when one section of the society was denied rights to education, accumulate wealth and own weapons?

“If one starts jumping on caste as an ignominy, then, directly or indirectly, it is hurting the sentiments of those who follow them in good faith and for a different purpose. Individual understanding is different, and we can never generalize.

This is why I strongly object to sweeping generalizations like caste itself is discriminatory.... brahmins were the perpetrators of injustice... and so on. That too, in this forum.”

Sri.sapthjhiva, religion and caste are personal matters. One should have the right to follow one or more religions or castes at the same time as one wish. I am only addressing the social injustices. I am only formulating questions from what I read from messages. I don’t pull anything from thin air. So, I can not be blamed for making sweeping generalizations. I don’t spare anybody; I ask everyone to explain if I am not satisfied with the write-ups. Thank you.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

To Praveen:

IMO, doubts and clarifications regarding practices are ok - provided they remain within an acceptable realm. But when it comes to charging the brahmin community for varnas, discrimination etc, one should be cautious. We should understand, that different interpretations are possible, but that does not conclusively prove any derogatory stand taken by the brahmins.

There is clearly an indulgence going on in this forum, so much so, the site could be re-named Tamil Anti-Brahmins.com. Reckless accusations are made; it is hay day.

If it is the matter of belief, then all practices are a belief in themselves. As I mentioned earlier, it is a belief that there is no God, because one has not seen it yet, or science has not yet proved it sceintifically. It is only a qualified observation, and cannot be a solid ground for accusing the brahmin community.

If one believes in equality, then is it not a belief in itself? How can one be sure of anything?

A borderline has to be drawn somewhere. This site is generating more anti-brahmin sentiments, for any community discussions to happen.

People recklessly go on to blame mutts and acharyas which could hurt the sentiments of quite a few people.

The write-up for the forum 'Religion' displays this - 'Please do not use this forum to engage in discussions against any particular religion or caste. Such topics will be promptly deleted.'

Does it not apply to the community related discussions? Does it not apply when members squarely blame traditional mutts or the brahmin community?

If not please tell me what actually constitutes engaging 'in discussions against any particular religion or caste'.

Either, caste based threads should be moderated, or they should be discontinued totally.

Regards,

saptha,

as an universally accepted மண்டு as far as theology is concerned, i saw it no business of mine, to wade in strange waters that this particular post is.

but this particular post pricked a sense of fairness in me. maybe i can give you a pov which while essentially agreeing with you, differs only in that in this context of the current participants, i think you may have erred. and that too, only my opinion.

an appeal to the moderator, against one of our own? happy is a dearly beloved part of us and so is nara. notwithstanding their erudition, their contribution to this forum, to say the least, can be matched by that of yours (which i respect), anandb, pannvalavan, and such oldtimers like nacchi, KRS or hari.

i feel critique from our own, has a forum given 'right' to be addressed here, as opposed to a mleccha orignated one. by mleccha, i mean one not wishing well the tamil brahmin, culture, welfare and prosperity.

so, i think, whatever the disagreement on theology may be, i think, it should be treated as a 'family affair'.

let us tilt to the other side of the shield - yes, if the doubts and challenges are made by such like those who have been banned here, then you are 100% correct, as the moderators have risen up to the challenge to guard the gates against the illwisher.

but to call happy hindu or nara, as purveyors of anti hinduism, i think, would be akin, to address you as தேச துரோஹி or தமிழ் துரோஹி, just because you might have strong feelings against certain political leaders.

in the context of vedic brahmin, i am not sure where vivekananda stands, but being familiar with your interpretations, not sure, even if he or ramakrishna or periyar or bharathiyar, would even stand up to be considered humans. i think those three revolutionised hindu thought.

all along the milleniums sir, we have seers, manu being one of them, adi sankara being another, ramanuja & so on, who have, from within, queried the rule of the establishment. in their times, they were perhaps revolutionists.

but as entropy entrenches itself, ie the random variable being the assault of time on values, and our own response, a measure of uncertainty associated with the attack, we tend to side with our vested interests, which in this case, i think, is a sanctuary into the prescribed brahminism against the attack of supposed பிராமண துவேஷிஸ் as happy or nara.

i think in this case, where one differs from one's brother and sister, the proper response, would be to offer a cyberhug, but sans the behaviour of chhatrapathi sivaji when he likewise did a physical hug on bairam khan. is not our differences the meeting point of our humanity? i think a bitter sweet contradiction of views, anyday, a greater treat than a hand thumping 'rah rah' agreement.

thank you sir and you have a good day.

ps: entropy as defined in wikipedia In information theory, entropy is a measure of the uncertainty associated with a random variable

 

[Nara]

Dear friend Saptha, I missed your post #317 also, for the same reason I guess.

This post makes me sad a little bit. I suppose I misread your feelings completely.

In this forum I am probably the most anti-religious and anti-caste. HH is not anti-religion, while she is anti-caste, she is not anti-varna, even if her varna is different from yours. Therefore, your comments in this post fits me more than anyone else. So, let me try to address them the best way I know.

Some of your observations are incorrect. There is no dearth of Brahmin community oriented discussions in this site. I have myself contrinuted to questions regarding Tharpanam timing, rahu kalam etc. without making any negative comments. I think there are many more active threads about Brahmin community than the ones that discuss the issues we are talking about.

I have monitored few other Tamil web sites. The discussions there are mostly silly and serious topics end up with a cycle of name calling. In contrast, the debates we have here in TB.com in the most part have been quite civil. No name calling, no personal attacks.

But, if serious moderation of the kind you are suggesting takes place the site will loose some of the vibrant discussions. I hope this does not happen.

Finally, as Kunjuppu rightly says, it is pretty likely that any of us are going to change our basic POV, but thats OK. This is just a good hobby. The discussions make us think. My dear friend Raju made me go back to some of the books I have not referred in a while. This was great because I got to read more than what I was looking for and learn.

These discussions, if held in a civil way, and I think that is the case in the most part, makes each of us think critically about our own views. This is a good thing that will be lost if these discussions are moderated away.

I do respect your stand as you do not equivocate when it comes to the varna system as some others seem to do. Hope you do not take any of the differences that come forth during our discussions personally. You have had some heated discussions with me earlier, and with HH in more recent past. But even in these discussions coming close to the line of civility, it was not crossed I think.

I know HH has only the highest of regard for Paramacharya. I can assure you she is not against any particular Matam, even though she criticizes some of the views promoted by these Matams. In that she is not alone, she is among some of Shankara Matam sishyas themselves. I mentioned sometime back about a Shankara Matam sishya that I approached for Sanskrit lessons and he demanded that I recite my Abhivadhaye. He was very critical of Jayendhra Swami and was quite nostalgic of the days of Chandhrasekara Swami. So these things are not indicative of ill feelings, they indicate just differences of opinion.

Anyway, I hope you are able to live with some discordant opinions, that is what makes our lives more vibrant and interesting.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

I just attended a christian wedding at Piravom, near Ernakulam, Kerala. The boy and girl belong to christian community but different orthodox churches prevailing in Kerala such as Syrian Catholic and Jacobites. Both the churches refused to accept the marriage and the parents performed it in a Roman Catholic Church which accepted the couples as new members.

I was shocked to learn the episode which I thought prevails only in Hindu religion. I was told that Muslim and Jews have similar restrictions in marriage.

There is no harm in preserving Brahmin culture, customs and practices when people belonging to other relgion have almost similar practices.

 

[happyhindu]

There is no harm in preserving Brahmin culture, customs and practices when people belonging to other relgion have almost similar practices.

I agree with you 100% sir.

The only expectations are these:

a) Please allow others also to receive education in the vedas. Let no religious organization stop or prevent anyone from pursuing such an education, if a boy or girl has such an interest.

b) If a religious organization wishes to guide the masses, please let it be clear and specific about what must be followed and what must be discarded.

One cannot throw the baby out with the bath water. One just needs to recognise that the bath water is dirty and needs to be discarded.

c) Let there be respect for every profession. A scavenger does his job as much as anyone else. Let his profession not have "scriptural sanction" to demean him or keep him as an outcaste.

If he wants to visit the temple, please let the priest or someone in the temple teach him to be hygienic. Please tell him to bathe and be clean while entering the temple. Let him take part in all poojais. In this way, by providing guidance and showing acceptance, respect for the local priests will also increase.

Regards.

 

[anandb]

Dear HH

Allow me to intervene. Do I infer that the Brahmins are the ones responsible for the state of affairs you have mentioned below?

I agree with you 100% sir.

The only expectations are these:

a) Please allow others also to receive education in the vedas. Let no religious organization stop or prevent anyone from pursuing such an education, if a boy or girl has such an interest.

My own POV is the Vedas should be allowed to be learnt by everyone. I know the Sankara mutts have a different POV but I will not say they are wrong because they advocate following the dharma of the varna one is born in. You do your varna dharma and achieve the goal of realization you are aiming for. There is no need to embrace the other person's dharma. I have seen enough advice going out to brahmins from these mutts to follow the kula dharma of a brahmana. Brahmins not following them is another issue. So in actuality they do not practice discrimination.

b) If a religious organization wishes to guide the masses, please let it be clear and specific about what must be followed and what must be discarded.

One cannot throw the baby out with the bath water. One just needs to recognise that the bath water is dirty and needs to be discarded.

There is an ocean of literature on this from both Sringeri and Kanchi in audio and book form so I don't understand what more they have to do.

c) Let there be respect for every profession. A scavenger does his job as much as anyone else. Let his profession not have "scriptural sanction" to demean him or keep him as an outcaste.

If he wants to visit the temple, please let the priest or someone in the temple teach him to be hygienic. Please tell him to bathe and be clean while entering the temple. Let him take part in all poojais. In this way, by providing guidance and showing acceptance, respect for the local priests will also increase.

First of all there is no scriptural sanction to treat anyone as an outcast so I don't know where this is coming from. If people are treating him badly they need to be condemned and punished certainly.

 

[happyhindu]

My own POV is the Vedas should be allowed to be learnt by everyone. I know the Sankara mutts have a different POV but I will not say they are wrong because they advocate following the dharma of the varna one is born in. You do your varna dharma and achieve the goal of realization you are aiming for. There is no need to embrace the other person's dharma. I have seen enough advice going out to brahmins from these mutts to follow the kula dharma of a brahmana. Brahmins not following them is another issue. So in actuality they do not practice discrimination.

To you, they do not practice discrimination. To others, they do. It depends on which side of the fence you wish to get the view from.

There is an ocean of literature on this from both Sringeri and Kanchi in audio and book form so I don't understand what more they have to do.

Am sorry. There is no clarity. They do not specify which parts of the smrithis are to be followed, which are to be discarded.

First of all there is no scriptural sanction to treat anyone as an outcast so I don't know where this is coming from. If people are treating him badly they need to be condemned and punished certainly.

The smrithis are loaded with stuff against the outcastes. Please go thru the 18 smrithis i sent you. And do try to substitute the word 'chandala' with 'brahmana' - hope that might open your eyes to scripturally sanctioned discrimination.

 

[anandb]

Shri. Nara,

Sorry for butting into this conversation but i could not resist it.

Yes Saptha, I missed this one. My excuse is I was on a red-eye flight on Dec 31st night and pretty sleepy on the 1st.

Ok, let me tackle this one as best as I can.

The eternal truth of Vedhas is dogma, no different from the claims of many Christians that every word in bible is god's word and therefore inerrant, and a similar claim about Quran by the muslims. You may think of the Vedhas to be eternally true, but I hope you are not expecting me to accept it.

I have stated my perspective earlier. I believe in the scientific process and what comes out of this process. I am agnostic about superior power - i.e. humans lack the knowledge to be sure of the existence of such an entity. I am an atheist with respect to personal gods, the ones that listen to prayers and grant wishes, both small like passing an exam or curing cancer, and big like moksham from samsara.

In this respect, it is no great accomplishment for god to appear in front of those who already have an ocean of faith, like Prahlladha or Dhuruvan. To appear in front of someone like me and proving his existence will be something special.

Why he does not do that? Why should he demand faith in the first place. That does not seem like a reasonable thing for a compassionate god to demand. So, the logical conclusion is such a god is just imagination of fertile minds eons ago.

Regarding Veda as dogma is your personal opinion and I have no comments on it. Your logic of not believing in god because he demands faith negating the belief that god cannot be compassionate is equivalent of a child telling its dad that he is not his dad because he has not bought him a toy. I will simply put it this way. As the world is divided into "faithful" and "faithless" we can see the faithful are putting in more efforts to see god than the "faithless". So god has to be fair to them and their efforts. This is actually a simple law of nature which we see in life. Take the example of a sprinter who trains all his life to achieve the Olympic gold. You can equate the "sprinter" to the "faithful", his "training methods" to the faithful's "efforts to see god" and the ultimate goal of the trainer which is the "Olympic gold" to the faithful "seeing god". It is a simple natural law that the best efforts lead to best results. It is also true that the best efforts sometimes don't lead to the best results which is explained by the Law of Karma. This is true in your case as well. Your "best efforts" in this case is actually do nothing to see god. And you are getting the "best result" from your POV which is "not seeing god". But there is another twist to all this because strange are the ways of god. Sometimes the "faithless" turn into "faithful" due to strange events. One never knows the timing of this because no one can predict the future accurately.

Any claims about Athma based on Vedhas is alright for the faithful, but expecting the rest of us to accept this without any evidence but the words of the Vedhas is simply unreasonable. Refusing to accept Vedhas as the final word is not narrow-minded, accepting it in the absence of any solid evidence and only the words of some people who in turn relied on some more people is downright naive.

The Vedas do not ask you to accept them without faith. They can be put to test by you in all ways and you can accept them when your mind is convinced about the results. I do agree that it is not for one human to convince another about these things. It is up to the individual to experience them personally.

Brahmins gained the material support of everyone else. They got to be served hand and foot by the Shudras for that was their duty, they got the respect and economic support from Vaishyas and protection from the Kshathriyas. Since Shudras are forbidden from owning property and weapons, the system worked just fine for the upper three varnas.

The Brahmin by traditional definition is not allowed to accumulate wealth
or keep anything for himself. If you see the complimentary nature of the varnas, each varna got the benefit of the duty performed by the other varna. So if the Kshatriya was performing his duty it protected all the other varnas and not just the brahmin. Correct me if I am wrong, Professor, but aren't we all following the same principle in this modern life. Your research and scholarly output has a direct impact on the ranking of your department and University while in my organisation while the Marketing guys bring in the turnover, me as a finance person is responsible for managing the turnover. Suppose I am siphoning off this turnover to build chalets for myself what would you do as a owner. Fire me or fire the entire finance function?

So, your view of Varna/Jati being useful for spiritual development is just one interpretation that is challenged within the community of the faithful. So, as a man of no faith, I have to ask you to first reconcile the differences within the community of the faithful Vedantins to which you belong. In my opinion, in as much as I do not believe in life after death, the whole claim of spiritual benefits to come in a future life is nothing but a palace built on speculation.

Isn't the scientific community that you are fond of full of differences? Does it make Science an extinct subject? Having all these different interpretations on Vedantic concepts make it more vibrant and enjoyable for discussion as long as the followers are not killing each other. Even then we can condemn only the killers and not the concepts.
On the aspect of life after death, the examples are all around us so I will not go in detail.

In the meantime, one conclusion we can arrive at, not very quickly I think, is that there is absolutely nothing the varna/jati system offers for our current life (the only life in my POV) that will be denied in the absence of this system.

To each his own.

Cheers!

 

[anandb]

Dear HH

To you, they do not practice discrimination. To others, they do. It depends on which side of the fence you wish to get the view from.

No further comments

Am sorry. There is no clarity. They do not specify which parts of the smrithis are to be followed, which are to be discarded.

HH, clarity is for those who follow these mutts and I think they have absolute clarity.

[/QUOTE] The smrithis are loaded with stuff against the outcastes. Please go thru the 18 smrithis i sent you. And do try to substitute the word 'chandala' with 'brahmana' - hope that might open your eyes to scripturally sanctioned discrimination.[/QUOTE]

I am at my wits end. Why should I follow the smrithis if they are loaded with all these humanly intervened crap not sanctioned by the Vedas or Upanishads? I will take the good, non-discriminatory stuff (even if they are interpolated) and leave the bad out. Isn't that what one keeps doing in life? Weed out the negative and build positivity in the mind and around. HH, I think we are repeating ourselves like a parrot. It bores me to death no end and am sure it does you as well. To me, this is it.

Thanks

 

[happyhindu]

HH, clarity is for those who follow these mutts and I think they have absolute clarity.

That's your POV again. Let me know how many iyers who follow the mutt feel that the mutt is offering clarity on what is to be followed or not.

I am at my wits end. Why should I follow the smrithis if they are loaded with all these humanly intervened crap not sanctioned by the Vedas or Upanishads? I will take the good, non-discriminatory stuff (even if they are interpolated) and leave the bad out. Isn't that what one keeps doing in life? Weed out the negative and build positivity in the mind and around.

Not only you, ofcourse nobody follows those crappy parts.

But mutts are asking people of each jati to follow their svadharma. They do not clarify which parts of the smrithis to reject.

The mutts have to realise that no one can follow the smrithis in its totality (together with its crappy verses) in today's time.

And they also have to realise that no one is going to follow their jaati-dharma, that is, the profession followed by his immediate ancestors.

HH, I think we are repeating ourselves like a parrot. It bores me to death no end and am sure it does you as well. To me, this is it.

Thanks

Yes, it does.

Thanks for the conversation thus far Anand.

Best wishes.

 

[Nara]

Dear Anand, you are welcome to join in at any time. As far as I am concerned we are having a good time talking about subjects we care about. This is lot more pleasant than standing on the sidelines and sniping.

Regarding Veda as dogma is your personal opinion and I have no comments on it.

Anand, a quick Google search for the definition of the word "Dogma" will confirm that what the Vedhas are for vaideekas, fit the way "dogma" is defined in general, not just in my personal view.

FromWikipedia:

Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization: it is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted or diverged from.
​

From Webster:

1 a : something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets <pedagogical dogma> c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
2 : a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church
​

The very view that Vedhas are apourusheya is dogmatic. The shrushti and samhara kramam described in the Vedhas constitute dogma.

Some of the contents of the Vedhas may be universally true, so are some of the contents of the Bible and the Quron. That does not make it "not-dogma" any more than Bible in its totality or Quron in its totality.

As the world is divided into "faithful" and "faithless" we can see the faithful are putting in more efforts to see god than the "faithless". So god has to be fair to them and their efforts.

This does not make sense to me in several ways.

• People of faith tell us we have to just believe, i.e. no effort, just believe.
• The faithless not putting any effort is also quite incorrect. There are many faithless, including yours faithfully, who have spent a large part of their lives looking earnestly, and finally realized there is nothing there.
• This is not a கண்ணாமூச்சி விளையாட்டு where the one who searched the hardest gets to see. Not getting it right could mean spending the next countless births in samsara as opposed to getting release after this one. With so much at stake, my view of a compassionate god is not one who stands behind a curtain (maya) and expects credulity as a price to show himself. This is downright cruel, IMO.

த்ருஷ்ட்டாந்தம் is not evidence. Understanding one's true nature is not a sport where there is one, or even serval, winners and losers. If god made this into a sport he is indeed quite evil.

The Vedas do not ask you to accept them without faith. They can be put to test by you in all ways and you can accept them when your mind is convinced about the results. I do agree that it is not for one human to convince another about these things. It is up to the individual to experience them personally.

What you are describing above is faith, not test. There are many Vedic rituals that can be easily shown to be completely useless. I will grant you the right to have faith, but I will challenge you if you claim Vedhas are more than just religious dogma/doctrine.

The Brahmin by traditional definition is not allowed to accumulate wealth or keep anything for himself.

If you apply traditional definition you cannot find a single Brahmin at any time. Even Paramacharya, with due respects and no offense intended, is said to have allowed private audience to Indira Gandhi, a widow. So these traditional definitions serve to feel good and great. When the rubber meets the road, nobody cares about these definitions. There is no evidence to show the Varna classifications were ever used for benign purposes, whereas, there is mountains of evidence to show they were used for hierarchical propagation and dominance.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

முனிவர் சாபம்

coming from malabar, i think, we were sort of ambiguous about the kanchi mutt. or the sringeri mutt. or any mutt for that matter.

we were deep into our own bhagavathis, ayyappans and guruvayurappans for our solace, comfort and religiosity.

the first time i heard of kanchi mutt, was when one of my relatives, who had 5 daughters was widowed. she wanted to seek solace and blessings from the mutt head. this was in the late 50s.

to everyone's shock, she was told to go shave her head, wear white and come back (not sure if she was allowed to wear a blouse).

years later, in the late 60s, the then junior head visited our neighbourhood. he carefully skirted the nearby slums, and it became an honour issue, that i should join the family in doing நமஸ்காரம் to someone whose values i did not agree.

this incited a battle royale in my household, and defeated me, joined the family in doing the public நமஸ்காரம் when this man stepped foot in my house and immediately departed (total elapsed time 15 seconds or so).

in the 70s, i had a relative who was whispered to have indulged in nefarious activities as part of indira gandhi's henchmen, and incidentally enriched himself. he retired, and almost immediately, got a high position at the kanchi mutt, much to my indignation. his wife explained to questioning relatives, that it was time for him to cleanse himself of his பாவம்ஸ் and seek redemption.

there were also a bunch of his friends, whom he proudly told us, joined along with him. these were the most reactionary corrupt guys i have seen, who were drunk with the unsupervised power which indira so easily and willingly dispensed.

i could not but feel a pang when i heard of the present mutt head's initial arrest. not that i had any soft feelings for him, but the ingrained பார்ப்பான் in me drummed over 16 years of living at home, i guess, must have had an hand in it.

i talked to a lot of folks including a dear friend in sydney australia. he wanted me to read a book by the previous mutt head, and i very explicitly told him the circumstances under which i abhor such company and such company's creations.

i notice that there are two groups who are ardent devotees of the mutt. one are the simpletons, like sankarraman, who felt betrayed at the fast paced change of morals, morality and movement towards the 21st century of an organization that is basically rooted in vedic values.

the others are the erudite intellectuals of the like anand, saptha etc., to whom, i think, it does not matter who sits on the kanchi gaddi, as long as the values are maintained per vedic brahminism.

then there is another kind, of the jamadagneya type, who reside on the fringe of the outhouse of kanchi mutt, and who wish to gather the buckets of droppings and hurl them at anyone who would not join their designated path to self destruction.

not much is said of the common middle class, basically not well versed in our dogmas, those who light the lamp daily, observe the concept of தீண்டல் in its various personifications, அமாவாசை, தெவசம், ஆவணி அவிட்டம் etc. ie the run of the mill urban brahmin of the 60s, which my father was, and i am not sure, if such breed exist anymore.

to these folks, i imagine, the evolution of kanchi mutt, to what it is now, is a let down. nobody has addressed the anguish of simple folks with minimally scriptured, sans sanskrit, but with an ardent attachment to what they feel is a 'brahmincal way of life'. these are the folks that are literrally left at the shores of an ocean, while the ship has departed to unknown shores.

that these type of folks are among the most racist and exclusivist, in my opinon, is not the issue. that they are part of my larger community of folks, and who are distressed, and the jawboning arguements presented by various parties here, gently sidestep the realities of a group left leaderless, is something i consider despicable.

also, i have noticed, and i hope i am wrong, these are the folks, who are actively recruited into chp and rss, under the guise of companionship and group honour. and ofcourse, social service. i shudder to the inevitability of TB blood being shed for causes which only the armchair inciters know and for which, my brethren are an innocent cannon fodder.

to some extent, i think the intellectual proponents of kanchi are responsible for this plight. something, they should do to prevent a holocaust of our gullible brethren.

God Bless.

 

[nachi naga]

re

Dear Nara,

I am attaching a rather longer than usual post in a text file.Only if those who are interested please download,as it very very long text file.Mr.Nara your post are enclosed in quotations and then my reply.And in the end a very very long disclaimer.Thank you very much.

nachi naga

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Nara,

I am attaching a rather longer than usual post in a text file.Only if those who are interested please download,as it very very long text file.Mr.Nara your post are enclosed in quotations and then my reply.And in the end a very very long disclaimer.Thank you very much.

nachi naga

nachi,

they say that there are 6 other folks in the world who resemble us.

i may be mistaken, but i could not help thinking of a ex-participant here, mr s007bala, whose voice, soundings, english and attitude were very similar to that of yours.

amazing, how small this planet is.

 

[nachi naga]

re

nachi,

they say that there are 6 other folks in the world who resemble us.

i may be mistaken, but i could not help thinking of a ex-participant here, mr s007bala, whose voice, soundings, english and attitude were very similar to that of yours.

amazing, how small this planet is.

Dear kunju,

Actually 9 folks resemble each other.Yes,indeed it's a small planet.

nachi naga.

 

[renuka]

Sathya Sai Speaks
THE TRUE GOAL OF EVERY RELIGION​

Embodiments of Divine Love! God is complete love incarnate. This love shines equally in every human being. The fragrance of a flower remains the same whether it is held in the right hand or the left. Likewise God has no distinction such as the favoured and the excluded.

​

Different persons, proceeding from their own likes and dislikes, attribute to the Divine the divergent views existing in their own minds. God has no feelings of differentiation such as the good and the bad, the likable and the unwanted, the wicked and the virtuous. The sandalwood tree imparts its fragrance even to the axe that fells it. Likewise God is ever prepared to love, foster and protect equally everyone without any distinction. But the narrow-minded cannot easily grasp the Divine's equal-mindedness. Indeed, how can a fishmonger know the value of diamonds? Everyone apprehends God's powers and attributes according to their own limited conceptions and experiences.

Religion Reunites Man with the Profound Purpose of His Life​

​

To get rid of such narrow ideas, the first requisite is the cultivation of love. How is love to be promoted? By "giving and forgiving" man develops love within himself. In relation to God, this implies that you should always have the attitude of offering your heart to God. Today, far from having such a sacred attitude what we witness is the habit of "getting and forgetting."
These days man receives the love, the blessings, and the grace of God, but shows no gratitude and is immersed in his own selfish pursuits. This accounts for his narrow outlook.
To start with, man has to recognise what is the goal of life. Seekers in all countries and followers of different religions have enquired into this question of the purpose of life. As a result of these enquiries, different religions arose. Jesus is the founder of the Christian faith. For centuries before Christ, Judaism existed as the religion of the Jews. The Jews believed in the coming of the Messiah to protect the people of Israel.
When Jesus was born, three kings came from the east to bless the infant in Bethlehem. The first king, seeing the child, declared that he would be a great lover of God. The second one declared that God would immensely love the child. The third one declared that Jesus is God and God is Jesus. What is the inner meaning of these statements? The first statement implies that all who love God are messengers of God. When God loves a person, he becomes a son of God. When a person gives up the sense of dualism and merges his consciousness in the Divine he becomes one with the Divine.

The Salient Declaration of Jesus​

When Jesus was a child, during a visit to Jerusalem, he was lost in the crowd. After a frantic search Mary found him in a temple listening intently to the speech of a priest.

When Mary told Jesus about the trouble they had gone through in searching for him, Jesus said: "Mother! When I am safe with my Father in His home, why should you worry about me? This is the temple of God.

It is my Father's mansion. Nothing will be lacking here. In this eternal and sacred home I am perfectly safe and well protected." This shows that even by his twelfth year, Jesus was full of Divine qualities and was imparting the Divine message to those around him.
Christ declared to the world three important things: (1) God is one. (2) He is omnipotent. (3) Do not hurt anyone. God is the indweller in every being. Christ embarked on his mission and went about calling upon people to earn the love of God by developing love towards God.

The Way to Experience the Pure Consciousness is Purity​

People professing different faiths worship God under different names: Vishnu, Siva, Ganesha, Allah, Christ, and others. The truth is there is only one God. People today try to find God in religions. But God is to be found not in mathamu (religions) but in the mathi (mind). It is only when the mind is controlled and purified that God will be recognised.
While the Lord is ever by the side of man, he is searching for God all over the world. By exploring the external, you can never purify the internal. It is essential to transform the consciousness. You have to rectify your conduct and actions, because everything depends on your deeds. Adhering to the righteous path, with a pure heart, you have to divinise your life. All spiritual disciplines have been designed only for this purpose. All the prayers and rituals that are offered are intended only to purify the heart.

 

[Nara]

...I am attaching a rather longer than usual post in a text file.

Dear Naga, Thank you for indulging me with your reply and disclaimer.

While i welcome Non-Brahmins to participate in discussion and let their perspective known to us,at the same time,it would be polite on their part,to shut their mouth or

There is a common saying that goes somewhat like this:

There was a father very concerned about his baby son not starting to speak. Then, when the boy finally started to speak, his first words were, "அப்பா, உன்னோட திவசம் என்னிக்கு?"
​

I feel this way having asked for a response from you.

Anyway, you have made your views very clear, if you were a Taliban you would have had mine and a few other heads in a platter. The difference between you and Taliban is not intent, only action.

If you think Manu Smrithi was written at a different period of time and we are quoting Manu out of context, then please let us know in what way? We may have some common ground afterall if we are misquoting Manu.

Systematically the followers are attacked and hacked and oppurtunities deprived or snatched away to make a living,therefore the matam philosophy is going down the drain.

I am unable to understand this. What opportunity are being denied that is leading to the matam philosophy going down the drain. Please explain so that what you are saying can be understood correctly.

Vellila paatha masala vadai, ulla paatha ooosa vadais,are non-brahmins.

Is this not the case with the so called TB's also. oosa vadai all over, isn't? Why only accuse the NB's.

So,brahmins quietly migrate,and mingle in society wherever they are and adapt and adopt to conditions accordingly,like a champion.

So, this is what Brahminism comes down to, quietly changing and adapting, without concern for any principle, just as long as they survive like a champion.

As if other religions in the world are perfect role models to imitate and follow.Total utter garbage.

I agree! Religion, any religion, does nothing for me. They all are utter garbage, your words, not mine.

'..... He was very critical of Jayendhra Swami and was quite nostalgic of the days of Chandhrasekara Swami. So these things are not indicative of ill feelings, they indicate just differences of opinion.'
​

Adi Shankarar is common to all humanity in the world,as he verily .....Is that intelligent or an act of a retard?

Well, it was an elderly Kanchi Shankara Maam shishya who said all this, not me or other so called NB's.

There was a curtain between the two of them,wherein,the acharya did not visualise the person mentioned.Despite that,the acharya had to do number of kriyas for the ashuddham that she created by..

I suppose this makes everything alright. Have a curtain in between and let all the Dalits inside the Matam, not just Kanci Shankara Matam, but all other Matams including Sri Vaishnava Matams.

The nexus between the religiously powerful and politically powerful is not something new, it has been this way for millennia. Maha Periyaval, with due respects and no offense intended, and other heads of Brahminical Matams are just following the long held tradition of symbiotic relationship between political and religious power centers.

... Mr.Nara,see how ridiculous i sound now or write now.Hope you are smart enough to understand the ' truth'

No Shri Naga, you do not sound ridiculous and neither is you English incomprehensible. Nobody can find your English wanting. To me personally, it is what you say that is offensive.

Thank you...

 

[nachi naga]

Re: just to say something

Dear Nara,

I am attaching a rather longer than usual post in a text file.Only if those who are interested please download,as it very very long text file.Mr.Nara your post are enclosed in quotations and then my reply.And in the end a disclaimer.Thank you very much.

nachi naga

 

[RVR]

Ms Happi Hindu ji, My replies are in blue.

I agree with you 100% sir.

The only expectations are these:

a) Please allow others also to receive education in the vedas. Let no religious organization stop or prevent anyone from pursuing such an education, if a boy or girl has such an interest.

Kanchi mutt runs few Vedha patasalas for poor brahmins. The mutt successors are mostly selected from the students of these Vedha Patasalas. Kanchi mutt has a tradition of appointing only Smartha Brahmins as mutt heads. Hence they are forced to follow the traditions offering vedhas only to smartha brahmins.

Smarthas have no role in getting appointed as priests in Hindu temples in Tamilnadu. Vishnu temples selects pure vaishanavite Battacharyas. Siva temples selects pure Saivaite brahmins (Gurukkal) as priests. NB communities appoint poojaris among their own members as priests in Mariamman/Kali temples.

Only one post held exclusive for Smartha brahmins is Kanchi/Sringeri mutt head post. Even here, language is not insisted and smartha brahmins belonging to Telugu, Kannada sects are selected. Adhi Sankarar is a Namboodri brahmin from Kerala. Paramacharyal is a Hoysila brahmin from Karnataka origin. Present Junior Acharya of Kanchi mutt is a Telugu Brahmin.

Except this one post, Smartha brahmins are not holding priestly post anywhere. Even this post is not reserved for Smartha brahmins of Tamil Origin. Since the successor is selected from few Vedha Patasalas run by Kanchi mutt, why do you insist that all communities have to be admitted to these vedha patasalas. Even here only poor smartha brahmacharis are admitted and they sacrifice their life by not taking up formal education from schools and colleges.

b) If a religious organization wishes to guide the masses, please let it be clear and specific about what must be followed and what must be discarded.

One cannot throw the baby out with the bath water. One just needs to recognise that the bath water is dirty and needs to be discarded.

Present Kanchi Acharya Sri Jayendra Saraswathi Swamigal is already mixing with all communities and doing lot of service to dalith community in particular.

c) Let there be respect for every profession. A scavenger does his job as much as anyone else. Let his profession not have "scriptural sanction" to demean him or keep him as an outcaste.

If he wants to visit the temple, please let the priest or someone in the temple teach him to be hygienic. Please tell him to bathe and be clean while entering the temple. Let him take part in all poojais. In this way, by providing guidance and showing acceptance, respect for the local priests will also increase.

I think everybody should take the example of keralites. They visit temples only after taking bath. The Namboodri priest treats every body alike. Even if a VIP visits the temple, the Namboodri priest will not touch him. No special treatment is given to fellow namboodri brahmins or other brahmins. Temple administration is always held by other communities and poojas are done only by namboodries. It works fine for centuries without any problem

Regards.

 

[renuka]

WHO CAN UNDERSTAND LOVE?​

Once upon a time there was an island where all the feelings lived. Happiness, sadness, knowledge and all the others, including love.
One day it was announced to all of the feelings that the island was going to sink to the bottom of the ocean. So, all the feelings prepared their boats to leave to a safer location.

Love was the only one that stayed. She wanted to preserve that little paradise until the last possible moment. When the island was almost totally under, love decided it was time to leave.

She began looking for someone to ask for help. Just then Richness was passing by in a grand boat. Love asked, "Richness, can I come with you on your boat?"
Richness answered, "I'm sorry, there is a lot of silver and gold on my boat and there would be no room for you anywhere."

Then Love decided to ask Vanity for help who was passing in a beautiful vessel. Love cried out, "Vanity, help me please."

"I can't help you,” Vanity said, "You are all wet and will damage my beautiful boat."

Next, Love saw Sadness passing by. Love said, "Sadness, please let me go with you." Sadness answered, "Love, I'm sorry but I just need to be alone now."

Then, Love saw Happiness. Seeing a ray of hope, Love cried out, "Happiness, please take me with you." But Happiness was so overjoyed that he didn't hear Love calling out to him.

Love began to cry. Then she heard a voice say, "Come Love, I will take you with me." It was an elder. Love felt so blessed and overjoyed that she forgot to ask the elder his name. When they arrived on land the elder went on his way. Love realized how much she owed the elder.

“Time is God”. If there is anybody who understands our Love always in the right manner, it is God. But we have to be patient, for God always chooses the best time to respond to our Love, as God is nothing but Love.​

Love then found Knowledge and asked him who the elder was. "It was Time," Knowledge answered. "But why did Time help me when no one else would?" asked Love. Knowledge smiled and with deep wisdom and sincerity, answered, "Because only Time is capable of understanding how great Love is."

Bhagavan Baba says, “Time is God”. If there is anybody who understands our Love always in the right manner, it is God. But we have to be patient, for God always chooses the best time to respond to our Love, as God is nothing but Love.

 

[anandb]

Shri. Nara,

Dear Anand, you are welcome to join in at any time. As far as I am concerned we are having a good time talking about subjects we care about. This is lot more pleasant than standing on the sidelines and sniping.

Anand, a quick Google search for the definition of the word "Dogma" will confirm that what the Vedhas are for vaideekas, fit the way "dogma" is defined in general, not just in my personal view.

FromWikipedia:

Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization: it is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted or diverged from.
​

From Webster:

1 a : something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets <pedagogical dogma> c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
2 : a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church
​

The very view that Vedhas are apourusheya is dogmatic. The shrushti and samhara kramam described in the Vedhas constitute dogma.

Some of the contents of the Vedhas may be universally true, so are some of the contents of the Bible and the Quron. That does not make it "not-dogma" any more than Bible in its totality or Quron in its totality.

The fact that Vedas are apourusheya did not stop the many Vedantins and the different schools of Vedantic thought stop from examining and studying the Vedas. This is what led to many great scholars writing bhashyams or commentaries and also advocating their view of the Vedas. To me this does not sound like dogma. Also it is not prescribed in the Vedas that there is a one and only way of achieving god realization. If it is so that is dogma. You have the right to achieve it in whatever way you want. Naturally the principles of dharma are to be followed. Shrusti and samharam sound dogmatic to you because there is no scientific proof for that. But it is perfectly logical in the spirit of the Vedas. The Vedas being anadi and apourusheya has seen many shristis and samharams. So the recording of it is actually scientific while for the humanity the act of shristi and samharam has still got to be seen by our eyes. Till then what is said in the Vedas will sound dogmatic.

This does not make sense to me in several ways.

• People of faith tell us we have to just believe, i.e. no effort, just believe.
• The faithless not putting any effort is also quite incorrect. There are many faithless, including yours faithfully, who have spent a large part of their lives looking earnestly, and finally realized there is nothing there.
• This is not a கண்ணாமூச்சி விளையாட்டு where the one who searched the hardest gets to see. Not getting it right could mean spending the next countless births in samsara as opposed to getting release after this one. With so much at stake, my view of a compassionate god is not one who stands behind a curtain (maya) and expects credulity as a price to show himself. This is downright cruel, IMO.

I am not the one to telling you to believe with no effort. In fact I say that "you" have to experience it. Just questioning the whereabouts of god does not amount to putting in efforts. Generally what I have seen is the "Faithless" starts on a very negative note (ie) they have already formulated the theory of "no god" and are seeking ways and means to justify it. They also start criticizing those who believe. I would suggest to start on a neutral note than negative. The other thing is how you see it. A man crossing the road and escaping death from a speeding car by a whisker may see god's hand in it while another may just attribute it to luck. I have seen staunch atheists and agnostics turn into believers through strange events. That is why I said the time has to come for everyone. You may not find god all the time looking for him and then find him when you stop looking. Can never say.

த்ருஷ்ட்டாந்தம் is not evidence. Understanding one's true nature is not a sport where there is one, or even serval, winners and losers. If god made this into a sport he is indeed quite evil.

There is no sport or anything of that sort. Our small human intellect makes us think about being a sport or winning and losing. It is not about who hits the goalpost first because there are no winners or losers here. There is god's hand in everything around us and it is up to us to see it or not. While a lot of people see it, there are lot others who don't as well. I don't have anything against atheists or agnostics as long as they don't rant against the other side.

What you are describing above is faith, not test. There are many Vedic rituals that can be easily shown to be completely useless. I will grant you the right to have faith, but I will challenge you if you claim Vedhas are more than just religious dogma/doctrine.

To me faith follows test. Unless something is tested rigorously faith does not arise. The human mind by its very nature keeps testing and then form or do not form faith. By using the word "many" I assume that you agree there are still some Vedic rituals which are not useless. To me the Vedas are more than a religious doctrine. You cannot convince me out of it.

If you apply traditional definition you cannot find a single Brahmin at any time. Even Paramacharya, with due respects and no offense intended, is said to have allowed private audience to Indira Gandhi, a widow. So these traditional definitions serve to feel good and great. When the rubber meets the road, nobody cares about these definitions. There is no evidence to show the Varna classifications were ever used for benign purposes, whereas, there is mountains of evidence to show they were used for hierarchical propagation and dominance.

You cannot find a single brahmin in these times, probably yes but I am not talking about these times. You have to accept that everything and everyone at all times can never be equal. We somehow strive for this idealistic situation but are so disappointed because it is never possible.
There are exceptions to be made when meeting a head of state. In fact I find the Paramacharya to be flexible. He met her as there is no axe to grind. He is not currying for personal favors. Supposing he had not met, someone else would have said what a golden opportunity he lost as he could have asked something for the well being of the society. This is your theory about varna classification and anyway much has been said about it.

Cheers![/QUOTE]