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Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

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There are two points.

1. If Improvement of Daltis present condition is the requirement - I have to repeat my opinion again and again which according to me is the practical solution and others are mere speculations. I have not encountered so for any negative comments on the adverse effect of my solution. As I am expecting a comment instead of rejecting outright.

2. If you argue that Brahmins should reject caste - there is no need to camouflage with the Dalit argument here. That can be discussed without the association of sentiments & with present day's context.

Cheers

I only have this to ask:

Why are some brahmins against admitting dalits to vedic schools?

Let us leave politics, material pursuits by dalits which will help them create a better life, etc, etc, aside.

If some dalits wish to pursue the path of religious studies, then who are brahmins to stop them? Why are they not admitting anyone to vedic schools, irrespective of caste? Do the brahmins own the vedas?


Dear Smt HH Ji

I don't think so. Right from the age of Buddism, Islam & British rulers, only the political rulers implement any changes in the society. They are the one really capable of. I am really surprised to see you rejecting outrightly.

Cheers

The Supreme Court ruled in 2002 that anyone can become a priest: Shastras But how many 'brahmin institutions' have heeded to that ruling?

Do you mean to say politicians must force their way into admitting dalits to vedic schools? Is that the only way left?

Since anyways, nobody is forced to follow the law in india, probably forcible implementation (by politicians) is the only option left.

And if politicians do such a thing, am sure the whole brahmin community will decry it as anti-brahmanism and what not.

Instead of such a scenario, why cannot the mutts welcome people into their fold on their own? What exactly is stopping them apart from only regressive rigid antediluvian stuff they call as "laws" in the 21st century...

'Dalits' want equality in the religious domain of hinduism. Materialism cannot make that happen. And they have realised it clearly and well enough.

I don't know about other posters, I, who has not attended any vedic school, who has come across some elite dalits without ever attending to any vedic schools, see your argument is not going to lead to an all-inclusive society and its a mere obsession. Today's all inclusive society only can be created not out of the religion but out of financial freedom.

Today, A begger can be made an untouchable by any settled people even if they belong to the same religion or caste. So, financial freedom, employment & timely action by govt only can solve this problem of Dalits.

This is purely your POV. Just the usual strawman arguments to somehow prevent admission of 'dalits' to vedic schools....

Yes, the government can solve this problem - by taking over the mutts. Do you want that to happen?

Regards.
 
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Sow.Sri.Happy Hindu,

Sri.PVR admits he had never been close to any Mutts; he expresses his POV; he has no authority over the mutts. Why are you grilling him? When are you going to realise that dalits and forward thinkig caste brahmins are the victims today? Dalits are discriminated by the NB caste Hindus; forward thinking caste brahmins are discriminated by the caste hindus and the govenment. What is the solution you can suggest, please? Kindly don't add mutts in your solution, please; mutts are not in control for any of the members of our forum. Thanks.

Cheers!
 
Its a new year (2010) but I still see the same caste game being played here.
What are we really going to gain or lose from all this discussions here?
Our minds are getting more divided, each looking for an answer to outdo the other.
Its quite disheartening sometimes to read this thread,I can choose to ignore it but I still read this thread hoping the seeds of love will be sowed here but I only see vadam and prativadam of the dividing kind.

Let us all just think of ourself as One and Make the World a Better Place for You and for Me and and the Entire Human Race.

YouTube - Michael Jackson - Heal The World

Renu,

It so easy to sing "Heal the world" ...

Hope you visit India and have a look at the poverty, corruption, and state of people there. Probably you don't think that downtrodden people even exist..

Please do not live under the delusion that politics alone is responsible for such a state of affairs. Its the attitude of the people, the attitude of "karma" that plays a huge role as well..

You can see religious vegetarian men, who won't harm a cockroach, but will not hesitate to harm a man by depleting his megre resources by taking bribes from him (i can introduce you to some such people).

Renu, much as we glorify hindusim, its obvious that the indian mentality can be the selfish sort because of the screwed up understanding of "karma"......How can anyone expect such type of people to "heal the world" ?

Various indian kingdoms lacked unity, kept fighting internally, and paved the way for outside threats and invasions...

Much later, we still bicker, play the blame game and outside 'threats" are already upon us waiting to pull the country down..

We fail to realise that internal unity is very much possible but will not be implemented to suit the ego of a few people; a section of whom will produce the "shastric" view of karma.

And i wonder if it is our curse that we have to live with institutions that instruct hindus to live in inhuman hindu "laws" of the 2nd century, here and now in the 21st century...

There is no vadam and prativadam here. What is a discussion can serve as food for thought for individuals who wish to see it that way....Outside of this world of discussions, each one us puts in our own efforts, in our own capacity, to create a better world for ourselves and others.

What is glaringly obvious is the attitude of non-acceptance (of admitting 'dalits' into vedic schools) by a section of 'brahmins' in this thread. I wonder how you are unable to see that. Or think that such people can consider the entire human race as ONE.

Regards.
 
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Sow.Sri.Happy Hindu,

Sri.PVR admits he had never been close to any Mutts; he expresses his POV; he has no authority over the mutts. Why are you grilling him?

Shri PVR is expressing his POVs and i am expressing mine. Am not sure if there is anything wrong with that (??).

When are you going to realise that dalits and forward thinkig caste brahmins are the victims today? Dalits are discriminated by the NB caste Hindus; forward thinking caste brahmins are discriminated by the caste hindus and the govenment. What is the solution you can suggest, please? Kindly don't add mutts in your solution, please; mutts are not in control for any of the members of our forum. Thanks.

Cheers!
:) Are forward thinking 'brahmins' really "victims" today? What about forward thinking 'non-brahmins' then?

And please do not think ALL members of this forum have no connections with mutts.

True dalits are discriminated against by everyone. But how did that start happening?

Caste hindus are merely living in the old mold, old style of thinking that "discrimination" is acceptable. And it happens at every level.

And why did indians develop such a mentality? Such that they are not able to give it up even if they convert to other religions?

Can we have a look at the psycological hold that "shastras" have created in the general masses over time?

Not sure if you have heard a maid saying a few expletives against the scavenger who comes to clean the septic tank in your house - not surprisingly she says 'such people are not even allowed in temples'.

So her benchmark of viewing such people is based on whether or not "such people are allowed in temples". And she thinks that passing a few slurs while giving him water to drink is an "OK" thing to do.

Solutions are education and awareness ofcourse. But yes, no matter what you say, if mutts continue to instruct every hindu to follow his codes of conduct, then the discriminative mentality at every strata, and all sorts of discriminative practices will remain.

Regards.
 
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re

Dear Nara,


“You know actually no one can ever find fault with anyone.
Anyone who does is no Panditah: and obviously has no Samadarshinah:*“

The above is written by Renu Thayar.If,one can understand the sentiments expressed,they automatically are 'Brahmins” knower of the brahman tattvam.

“Hello Shri Naga, In just two small sentences you have raised so many questions.

[1] What is it that Saptha has written that only a Brahmin can understand?
[2] That there are NB's in this forum is well known. Some have been quite open about that. So whatever do you mean by this?
[3] What responses of the members that make you identify the NB's? What in what they write gives it away for you?

I wish people are open and clear about what they are talking about so that they can be understood clearly.

Cheers! “

1.Saptha has wriiten many a post,to clearly understand as to where he comes from.

2.That NB's are here,is something news to me.I did not know that.In fact,the website should be termed as http://www.englishbrahmins.com as most of us interact in the popularly universal language of English,is my opinion now.

3.When one is born with an understanding of his Kulam,Gothram,Paramparam and Guru Anugraham,it makes a difference,in his/her outlook.When the website is especially designed to promote unity amongst diverse hindu sects,non-brahmins are more than welcome to participate and mingle,with their own views & perspective.But a line should be drawn,when impertinent members who do not understand Manu Smriti and under what context each and every verse was written,should be,moderated.I do not think,there is any one member in this forum,who can question the wisdom,knowledge,or Bhakthi,thats been propagated by Kanchi Acharyas for eons together now.I rest my case.

Dear Nara,english language is only a third language for me.My mother tongue is 'Tamizh'.So,please excuse my english with my grammaticall errors that I use,if it conveys,an entirely different comprehension in your mind.Nalladay Ninnai,Nalladay Seivayaga !!

Padma Padangalin of Kanchi Peethadipathi.

Nachi Nagarajan.
 
...... forward thinkig caste brahmins are the victims today?


Dear Raghy, In so many years of my life I am yet to see a Brahmin family being victimized even 0.0000001% of the victimization Dalits have suffered over eons and continue to suffer.

The Brahmin victimization feeling comes from two sources, I think, (i) Brahmins getting blamed for caste atrocities even though they did not engage in any themselves directly, and (ii) reservation policy. Both lack any merit whatsoever. We have discussed these elsewhere, and therefore will not repeat them here.

Even though I am sure you do not have any ulterior motives when you say this, but it is will be understood as a case of abject opportunism.

Cheers!
 
....mother tongue is 'Tamizh'.So,please excuse my english with my grammaticall errors that I use,if it conveys,an entirely different comprehension in your mind.

Dear Shri Nagarajan, Greetings!

I have no problem with your English I am able to understand perfectly. My problem is only with what you are saying.

First, I thank you your reply. However, with this long reply you failed to address the many questions you raised with one short post earlier. You have added more questions in this response.

My disagreements with Saptha are quite profound. But I must concede that he does take a very consistent position based on his faith premise.

In your last post you suggest that criticism of Manu Smrithi must be moderated. You talk of Brahmins of kulam/gothram and a line to be drawn on the views of NB's of the forum. This is extreme stuff. Please explain why you think this is the right approach for the welfare of TB's.

Thank you!
 
Sir,
Many hindus who are very much concerned about 'untouchability'and 'caste system have made a sincere beginning for abolition of such bad practises from 'HINDUISM'
I request everyone to go through the website"www.shastras.org" and give a helping hand.It is possible to abolish with active cooperation of all persons.LET US ALL MAKE A BEGINNING.
B.Krishnamurthy
 
Sow.Sri.Happy Hindu,

"Shri PVR is expressing his POVs and i am expressing mine. Am not sure if there is anything wrong with that (??)."

In my opinion, exchange of opinions are pefectly okay. But the conversation between yourself and Sri.PVR has passed the stage of mere exchange of opinions. Sri.PVR or most other caste brahmins do not really have the answers to your pointed questions about the completely screwed up society structure. It is not that concerened persons have not approached Sankara Mutt; they had in the past. Sankara mutt was/is, too rigid to accomadate any changes. Sri.Paramacharyal mentioned that in 'Dheivathin Kural'.

"Are forward thinking 'brahmins' really "victims" today? What about forward thinking 'non-brahmins' then?"

Sorry; I did not phrase my sentence properly. When I mentioned dalits and 'forward thinking caste brahmins', I actually meant to say all the persons. Anyway I should have written just 'all the forward thinking persons'. Thanks for pointing that out.

"please do not think ALL members of this forum have no connections with mutts."

Sure, there will be majority of the members in this forum with strong connections with the mutt. I do not deny that at all. But, my question is, how many persons have any influence in the mutt? Enough influence to get the mutt to consider bringing some changes? I think, none.

"True dalits are discriminated against by everyone. But how did that start happening?

Caste hindus are merely living in the old mold, old style of thinking that "discrimination" is acceptable. And it happens at every level."

How did dicrimination against the Sudhras, panchmas and milecha start? In my POV, it was the wrong interpretation of varna system. Would anyone agree with me? No. I did not write the explanation for 'Brhama Sutra'; even if one did, still would not be accepted by the others readily anyway. We all know how it started; deny one group of people their right to knwledge. In Aussie terms, keep them like mushrooms- kept in the dark and feed bull s**t. I am not writing this for the first time today either.

When someone is down, that is the time everyone trample him/her. This I have seen far too many times. Indians too do it readily. ஊருக்கு இளைத்தவன் பிள்ளையார் கோவில் ஆண்டி. Aandi need not do anything wrong; still the village or community would target him. That was/is what happened to Sudhras; happening to all the forward thinking persons irrespective of their caste.

"And why did indians develop such a mentality? Such that they are not able to give it up even if they convert to other religions?

Can we have a look at the psycological hold that "shastras" have created in the general masses over time?"

Such narrow minded phenomenon is exhibited by not only Indians but by other communities too. One of my Chinese friend said about a similar situation in China; it happened in England and Ireland; I see such behviour amoung immigrants from Africa. Most Indians hold dear to their caste. I don't really know why though. They carry it across to other religions when they convert. (few guys from Sydney stayed with me for a few days. Two of them hailed from rival villages; one day these two had a huge argument in my home about a fence put up by one village causing inconvenience to the other!). When a person is narrow minded, see the world with a tunnel vision, such person would carry such vision to where ever he/she goes.

The shastras did play a huge role in shaping up the psche of Hindus. It is true. It is also true, most people did not bother with the vedantas and philosophies that preach unity and respect for others. For some reason, the undesirable sashtras became popular; desirable vedantas are seldom referred. I guess, it is easy to stay narrow-minded.

"Not sure if you have heard a maid saying a few expletives against the scavenger who comes to clean the septic tank in your house - not surprisingly she says 'such people are not even allowed in temples'.

So her benchmark of viewing such people is based on whether or not "such people are allowed in temples". And she thinks that passing a few slurs while giving him water to drink is an "OK" thing to do."

Sow.HH, my house (and most of the houses, except one or two, in the agraharam) was very different. I am happy I was exposed to such an environment.

"Solutions are education and awareness ofcourse. But yes, no matter what you say, if mutts continue to instruct every hindu to follow his codes of conduct, then the discriminative mentality at every strata, and all sorts of discriminative practices will remain."

I agree with you 100%. So, what do we do? It will be near impossible to get the mutts to act ratinally. So, that avenue is almost closed. Why should we bang our heads on a brick wall? Smart people don't do that; do they? Personally I think, inter - caste marriages are one way of solution. Arya Samaj educating all the interested persons in scripture is one more solution (In fact, this was referred in 'Dheivathin Kural' as an alternative to seeking admission in mutt veda padasala). More interactions with people of all the castes on equal footing is one more solution. I am sure, this learned forum will come up with more and effective solutions.

Cheers!
 
Sri.Nara,

"Even though I am sure you do not have any ulterior motives when you say this, but it is will be understood as a case of abject opportunism."

Dear Sri.Nara, as I have explained to Sow.HH, I had not formulated my sentence properly. I meant to say all the forward thinking persons. My point was, mutts are too rigid, refusing to make any positive changes; that rigidity gives ample opportunities for people with vested interest to make politics. All the persons caught in between the mutt and the politics are affected. Dalits were/are always affected; now more people are affected in different ways too.
I did not mean about reservation policy etc. (If a half-wit kid from a village could out-think the reservation policies, everyone can do that).

Cheers!
 
... as I have explained to Sow.HH, I had not formulated my sentence properly. I meant to say all the forward thinking persons.

Dear Raghy, you do not have anything to explain, I have no doubt as to where you stand. All that mattered was to make sure your words reflected what you wanted to say, and I know what you wanted to say :) -- the same thing you have said so many times quite articulately.

Now, we need to further refine what you just said, the atrocities Dalits suffered and continue to suffer stand alone and no where comparable to the criticisms the forward thinking people of any caste had to endure. I have no doubt you agree with this as you have an advantage over me, your friendship with Ponnan.

Let me also state in this thread that I think HH has a very valid point in that even if you are not associated with any Matam, and even if you have no influence over any of the affairs of the Matam, you still can reject the caste system, in an unequivocal fashion, and in one's own personal capacity, for its own sake, and, not out of what others caste Hinuds are up to.

Yes, the politicians seem to stoke caste feelings for their own benefit, but why should that prevent one from rejecting the caste system? Yes, the dominant NB's tend to cling to their caste identity and oppress those at the bottom, but why should that prevent anyone here from rejecting the caste system unequivocally?

This, I think, is what HH is talking about and I am with her 1000%.

Cheers!
 
Sri.Nara,

"Let me also state in this thread that I think HH has a very valid point in that even if you are not associated with any Matam, and even if you have no influence over any of the affairs of the Matam, you still can reject the caste system, in an unequivocal fashion, and in one's own personal capacity, for its own sake, and, not out of what others caste Hinuds are up to."

Dear Nara, Kindly explain this further, please. Leave alone having an influence over any matam, but,
அடியேனுக்கும் மடங்களுக்கும் ஸ்நான ப்ராப்தி கூட இல்லை. If I personally reject caste system altogether (which, I do), how does that help the wider society? Who would care for my personal stand? Still the manusmrithi is still there; matams are still there. I am seeking solutions. How do you propose solutions from personal level, please? Thank you.

Cheers!
 
Dear Raghy,

In my opinion, exchange of opinions are pefectly okay. But the conversation between yourself and Sri.PVR has passed the stage of mere exchange of opinions. Sri.PVR or most other caste brahmins do not really have the answers to your pointed questions about the completely screwed up society structure. It is not that concerened persons have not approached Sankara Mutt; they had in the past. Sankara mutt was/is, too rigid to accomadate any changes. Sri.Paramacharyal mentioned that in 'Dheivathin Kural'.

Yes am beginning to realise that no one really has answers to the pointed questions am raising wrt the mutts. But hopefully, someday someone might come along and provide some answers.

Yes the Kanchi mutt is too rigid to accomodate things. But they also need to realise that the public is not unaware of things...and not everyone will accept things, in the name of dharma.

Sorry; I did not phrase my sentence properly. When I mentioned dalits and 'forward thinking caste brahmins', I actually meant to say all the persons. Anyway I should have written just 'all the forward thinking persons'. Thanks for pointing that out.
Thankyou for clarifying Raghy.

Sure, there will be majority of the members in this forum with strong connections with the mutt. I do not deny that at all. But, my question is, how many persons have any influence in the mutt? Enough influence to get the mutt to consider bringing some changes? I think, none.
No one needs to influence the mutts. No single individual can. But as awareness amongst masses keeps increasing, lets hope that the mutts themselves realise that its pointless to instruct a changed world to go back into the 2nd century.

How did dicrimination against the Sudhras, panchmas and milecha start? In my POV, it was the wrong interpretation of varna system. Would anyone agree with me? No. I did not write the explanation for 'Brhama Sutra'; even if one did, still would not be accepted by the others readily anyway. We all know how it started; deny one group of people their right to knwledge. In Aussie terms, keep them like mushrooms- kept in the dark and feed bull s**t. I am not writing this for the first time today either.
Raghy, it is apparent that discrimination was a social reactionary measure. It probably had its rightful place when it was implemented. Not today. That is what ALL hindus will realise over time.

When someone is down, that is the time everyone trample him/her. This I have seen far too many times. Indians too do it readily. ஊருக்கு இளைத்தவன் பிள்ளையார் கோவில் ஆண்டி. Aandi need not do anything wrong; still the village or community would target him. That was/is what happened to Sudhras; happening to all the forward thinking persons irrespective of their caste.
Very true. The ones trodden upon require not only government help, but also an uplifting hand from the religion that contributed to their downtrodden state.

Such narrow minded phenomenon is exhibited by not only Indians but by other communities too. One of my Chinese friend said about a similar situation in China; it happened in England and Ireland; I see such behviour amoung immigrants from Africa. Most Indians hold dear to their caste. I don't really know why though. They carry it across to other religions when they convert. (few guys from Sydney stayed with me for a few days. Two of them hailed from rival villages; one day these two had a huge argument in my home about a fence put up by one village causing inconvenience to the other!). When a person is narrow minded, see the world with a tunnel vision, such person would carry such vision to where ever he/she goes.

The shastras did play a huge role in shaping up the psche of Hindus. It is true. It is also true, most people did not bother with the vedantas and philosophies that preach unity and respect for others. For some reason, the undesirable sashtras became popular; desirable vedantas are seldom referred. I guess, it is easy to stay narrow-minded.
Yes truly narrow-mindedness comes in all forms. All old communities have it. I have already stated how a section of the old folk in my family think wrt dalits. Not only Bs, there are sections of NBs that feel proud about their past. But today, there is not a single person below age 40, who thinks that way in any section of my family. The younger generation has clearly moved away from caste identities.

It will take time for all hindus to move away from narrow-minded caste identities. Many people are interested in yoga these days. In that manner they get introduced to the nice side of hinduism such as vedanta. Seeing the popularity of yoga, one feels that people like Baba Ramdev are indeed sent by God. Hopefully such a tribe flourishes.

Sow.HH, my house (and most of the houses, except one or two, in the agraharam) was very different. I am happy I was exposed to such an environment.

I agree with you 100%. So, what do we do? It will be near impossible to get the mutts to act ratinally. So, that avenue is almost closed. Why should we bang our heads on a brick wall? Smart people don't do that; do they? Personally I think, inter - caste marriages are one way of solution. Arya Samaj educating all the interested persons in scripture is one more solution (In fact, this was referred in 'Dheivathin Kural' as an alternative to seeking admission in mutt veda padasala). More interactions with people of all the castes on equal footing is one more solution. I am sure, this learned forum will come up with more and effective solutions.

Cheers!
At present, yes it is not possible to expect the mutts to be rational. Let us also not forget that the kanchi mutt has its own set of problems (shankararaman murder case, historians who question the antecedents of the mutt, etc). However, in future, as and when people get aware, its not possible to turn a blind eye to the expectations of the general public. So, lets see how things go...

At the same time, it is certainly not right to have hard feelings about the past. However brahmins who claim victimhood in the present time also need to realise that dalits have suffered a lot-lot more. So they really cannot complain against secularism, reservations, government benefits, etc extended to the dalits.

Its an other matter that politicians are exploiters. But public awareness is increasing very fast. The day is not far when the electorate demands good administration and transparent performance, not jaati-politics. The urban-aware already do.

So with a strongly aware public, politicians cannot really do jati-politics.

Am optimistic that the future holds promise for a better hindu society based on the principle of equality.
 
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..... If I personally reject caste system altogether (which, I do), how does that help the wider society? Who would care for my personal stand?


Dear Raghy, As they say, சிறு துளி பெரு வெள்ளம. Let us take one person at a time. Before we can try to influence others we must be convinced ourselves. Let those who blame the politicians and the other casts, first declare that they are unequivocally against the caste system. Then we have cadre of ex-brahmins acting against the caste system, That would be a start. If only we can get started, the Matams will follow. After all, the first priority of the Matams, all Matams not just one particular sect, is to survive.

Krishnammal Jagannathan, the dalit leader and one of the receipients of the 2008 alternative Nobel prize, had to fight for about 50 years to get justice for the dalit families who were burnt alive in Thanjavur district. So it will take time. But that should not prevent progressive minded people from rejecting their caste identity and the system as well.

I think this is what HH is asking for and in this I am with her 1000%.

Cheers!
 
Renu,

It so easy to sing "Heal the world" ...

Hope you visit India and have a look at the poverty, corruption, and state of people there. Probably you don't think that downtrodden people even exist..

Please do not live under the delusion that politics alone is responsible for such a state of affairs. Its the attitude of the people, the attitude of "karma" that plays a huge role as well..

You can see religious vegetarian men, who won't harm a cockroach, but will not hesitate to harm a man by depleting his megre resources by taking bribes from him (i can introduce you to some such people).

Renu, much as we glorify hindusim, its obvious that the indian mentality can be the selfish sort because of the screwed up understanding of "karma"......How can anyone expect such type of people to "heal the world" ?

Various indian kingdoms lacked unity, kept fighting internally, and paved the way for outside threats and invasions...

Much later, we still bicker, play the blame game and outside 'threats" are already upon us waiting to pull the country down..

We fail to realise that internal unity is very much possible but will not be implemented to suit the ego of a few people; a section of whom will produce the "shastric" view of karma.

And i wonder if it is our curse that we have to live with institutions that instruct hindus to live in inhuman hindu "laws" of the 2nd century, here and now in the 21st century...

There is no vadam and prativadam here. What is a discussion can serve as food for thought for individuals who wish to see it that way....Outside of this world of discussions, each one us puts in our own efforts, in our own capacity, to create a better world for ourselves and others.

What is glaringly obvious is the attitude of non-acceptance (of admitting 'dalits' into vedic schools) by a section of 'brahmins' in this thread. I wonder how you are unable to see that. Or think that such people can consider the entire human race as ONE.

Regards.
Dear Happy Hindu,
I visited India as a 12 year old child and i did my MBBS there also.
I visit India every 2 years and will be going again in Sep 2010.
I am quite aware of the situation in India which is no different from most developing countries.

You had mentioned that I fail to see that the attitude of non-acceptance of admitting dalits into vedic schools by a section of "brahmins" in this thread and you wonder why I am unable to see that.

Dear Happy Hindu,
I entered this forum to gain knowledge and to share knowledge.
I personnaly do not like to find fault with anyone whether Brahmana or Dalit.

You know one can learn Vedas from any other source and not necesarily from a Vedic School in any Matt.
Nowadays so many Non Indians learn Vedas.
There is a whole world of knowledge out there.
There are so many sources to learn Vedas.
I have mentioned before that there might be keepers for religion but there can never be keepers for God.

You also say whether such people can consider the entire human race as One?

Dear Happy Hindu, You yourself are not considering everyone as ONE in this forum
You are calling them "Brahmins" whereas I call all Humans.
 
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Dear Shri Nara, did you miss my post #270? Again??

HH - you often remark (am paraphrasing here) that there are 'some' who take pride in a brahmin. My question is - Does it bother you? Should it at all bother you? Why do you phrase it in a negative sense? What are the means taken to verify your statement? How credible is it? Moreover, you are charging the entire brahmin community for an exaggarated whim of yours!

If you have a doubt about the credibility or authenticity of any verse or shloka or smrithi, please clarify from the different schools directly as to how best they should be understood, so that it does not digress from the shruthis. That is the way you have to approach a subject. You cannot understand the smrithis and shruthis, after having concluding their nature incorrectly.

Regards to both,
.........................................

To forum members:

The Yugas were different in their structure, lifestyle and as regards dharma. I am seeing a outright comparison of some 'forward thinkers' without stating their stand on these variables!!! If this is not hypocrisy, I do not know what is!!!

There is no end to imagination and and an endless war can be fought on these lines... with no real result at all. The only unpleasantness left out, probably, would be in our minds.

I am attaching a link to a pdf (posted on the Ahobila Matam website) for the benefit of those who would like to see how a brahmin's lifestyle should be. Sampradhayams may vary, but the essentials will not.

Please click here.

For those who think that a brahmin should be, irrespective of the other varna, this is some food for thought.

The society, as we see today, does not allow a brahmin, to live the life of a brahmin. Mr. Cho can call out in his tele-show as to where a real brahmin could be found. Learned people could challenge the credibility of a brahmin based on his practices today. A hue and cry could be raised about discriminatory practices.

The fact is - survival is difficult as the society does not protect a brahmin. Had it been so, the practice would not have degenerated. And since, the first rule of varna dharma had been broken by the other varnas, brahmins had to break it to an extent.

The next thing - Certain members create a din as to how brahmins had cleverly devised the scheme, introduced certain passages into the shruthis/smrithis, so that they can ensure total control!

This is a really amazing statement, but sadly, neither the proof is credible nor the logic!

Anybody can claim that any number of verses could be inserted. The onus is on the sampradhayic gurus to clarify - those who have authority should state as to whether it is inserted or not. The simple reason is that the 'bhava' in which a shloka is written may be different, and only those in the sampradhaya could best fathom it.

A humble request - For those brahmins who have doubts in their minds, please clear them from your respective sampradhaya Guru/Acharya. NOT FROM THIS FORUM.
.................................

Regards to all,
 
To Praveen:

IMO, doubts and clarifications regarding practices are ok - provided they remain within an acceptable realm. But when it comes to charging the brahmin community for varnas, discrimination etc, one should be cautious. We should understand, that different interpretations are possible, but that does not conclusively prove any derogatory stand taken by the brahmins.

There is clearly an indulgence going on in this forum, so much so, the site could be re-named Tamil Anti-Brahmins.com. Reckless accusations are made; it is hay day.

If it is the matter of belief, then all practices are a belief in themselves. As I mentioned earlier, it is a belief that there is no God, because one has not seen it yet, or science has not yet proved it sceintifically. It is only a qualified observation, and cannot be a solid ground for accusing the brahmin community.

If one believes in equality, then is it not a belief in itself? How can one be sure of anything?

A borderline has to be drawn somewhere. This site is generating more anti-brahmin sentiments, for any community discussions to happen.

People recklessly go on to blame mutts and acharyas which could hurt the sentiments of quite a few people.

The write-up for the forum 'Religion' displays this - 'Please do not use this forum to engage in discussions against any particular religion or caste. Such topics will be promptly deleted.'

Does it not apply to the community related discussions? Does it not apply when members squarely blame traditional mutts or the brahmin community?

If not please tell me what actually constitutes engaging 'in discussions against any particular religion or caste'.

Either, caste based threads should be moderated, or they should be discontinued totally.

Regards,
 
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Thankyou for the post Renu.

You know one can learn Vedas from any other source and not necesarily from a Vedic School in any Matt.
Nowadays so many Non Indians learn Vedas.
There is a whole world of knowledge out there.
There are so many sources to learn Vedas.
I have mentioned before that there might be keepers for religion but there can never be keepers for God.

Yes that's true.

Imo, as long as there are institutions that portray themselves as the orthodoxy of hinduism and propagate discrimination, there can be no expectation of equality in the religious domain of hindusim.

And therefore no matter how much people decry politicians, missionaries, etc - it wud be useless. The fact will remain that hinduism as a religion practices discrimination.

You also say whether such people can consider the entire human race as One?

Dear Happy Hindu, You yourself are not considering everyone as ONE in this forum
You are calling them "Brahmins" whereas I call all Humans.
Renu, that is quite an accusation actually. Just because one uses the term 'brahmins' (to refer to a set of ppl who wish to be referred to as brahmins), that does not mean i do not consider ppl here as humans.

I do consider everyone as humans. But if there is a particular section which practices discrimination and expects to be considered as humane 'brahmins', then what term to use for them?

Regards.
 
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HH - you often remark (am paraphrasing here) that there are 'some' who take pride in a brahmin. My question is - Does it bother you? Should it at all bother you? Why do you phrase it in a negative sense? What are the means taken to verify your statement? How credible is it? Moreover, you are charging the entire brahmin community for an exaggarated whim of yours!

I had already clarified that healthy pride is fine, but pride in some individuals is actually vanity. Yes, i do think there are some certain individuals here who do not have healthy pride but are stuck with vanity.

So when i say there are some who take 'pride' in being brahmin, it obviously means ppl with the vain sort of pride, not the healthy pride.

You have decided to imagine things (on my behalf) and then ask me questions like "why do you phrase it in the negative sense". I dunno if vanity feels good to you, but to me it sounds unhealthy. No its not negative, but its unhealthy not only for the individual but also for the society in which he lives.

And what is the "exagerrated whim" of mine for which i am "charging the entire brahmin community" ?

If you have a doubt about the credibility or authenticity of any verse or shloka or smrithi, please clarify from the different schools directly as to how best they should be understood, so that it does not digress from the shruthis. That is the way you have to approach a subject. You cannot understand the smrithis and shruthis, after having concluding their nature incorrectly.

Regards to both,
:) its obvious that what is "incorrect" to one is "correct" to another and vice-versa......Just that the number of people (dasanaamis / ekadandis) who understand something as "correct", happen to outnumber a few institutions, which considers their version of varna-jaati as "incorrect". And that is my personal POV, based on what i have come across.

I too could advice you to follow exactly the same thing -- "please clarify from different schools directly how the smrithis and shrutis should be understood, so that it does not digress from the shruthis. . That is the way you have to approach a subject. You cannot understand the smrithis and shruthis, after having concluding their nature incorrectly".

Please do not bother to suggest such things to me, since you already know where i stand.

I remain curious to know what the various monastic traditions think abt the varna-jaati matrix. Whatever i had expressed is only what i have come across so far. And as i come across other versions, i will express them too.

If some wish to adhere to only one version, one institution, so be it. Certainly, there is nothing stopping others from exploring other monastic traditions and expressing their versions.
 
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Dear Happy Hindu,

I dont feel I accused you here.Dont get me wrong.I was just putting a point that I dont want to discriminate and diiferentiate humans into Brahmins and Non Brahmins.
I just want to enjoy the essense of Sanathana Dharma and trying my very best to have Samadarshinah:.
I am a mere mortal. Really a long journey more for me to reach my goal.
I just want to discard all differences at the bodily level.
I am no Sanyasini but just a normal 39 year old female.

I was just answering to your query where you had mentioned" I failed to see the attitude of non acceptence of dalits into vedic schools by a section of "Brahmins" in this thread".

Dear Happy Hindu,
I did not fail to see.I want to see all as One.
There is only One.
Two is just One occuring Twice.
 
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Some relevant remarks:

I had already clarified that healthy pride is fine, but pride in some individuals is actually vanity. Yes, i do think there are some certain individuals here who do not have healthy pride but are stuck with vanity.

So when i say there are some who take 'pride' in being brahmin, it obviously means ppl with the vain sort of pride, not the healthy pride.
So, have you become the adjudicater now??? It is not upon you to decide whose is a healthy pride or otherwise.

You have decided to imagine things (on my behalf) and then ask me questions like "why do you phrase it in the negative sense". I dunno if vanity feels good to you, but to me it sounds unhealthy. No its not negative, but its unhealthy not only for the individual but also for the society in which he lives.
Again, implicit in your words is the presumption that there is vanity in some brahmins, inherent by following their dharma.

And what is the "exagerrated whim" of mine for which i am "charging the entire brahmin community" ?
I have to write volumes for that... it is obvious, but if you pretend not to understand it, I shall leave it that way.

:) its obvious that what is "incorrect" to one is "correct" to another and vice-versa......Just that the number of people (dasanaamis / ekadandis) who understand something as "correct", happen to outnumber a few institutions, which considers their version of varna-jaati as "incorrect". And that is my personal POV, based on what i have come across.
Relativity is something which is quite a means to escape when it comes to non-consensual issues. And as far as logic is concerned, numbers do not matter, the gravity and brevity of the subject does. Saampradhayic thought is the traditional and authentic.
 
Sri.Sapthajihva Sir,
Kindly accept my namaskarams, please.

“To forum members:

The Yugas were different in their structure, lifestyle and as regards dharma. I am seeing a outright comparison of some 'forward thinkers' without stating their stand on these variables!!! If this is not hypocrisy, I do not know what is!!!”


Respectable Sir, I made few comments in this thread. I don’t consider myself as a ‘forward thinker’; not yet. I really do not know the differences in the structure and life styles of different yugas. I did not think there would be any either. Yuga denotes a period, to my limited understanding. I could be wrong. How ever, I can not accept Dharma could have any variables. Dhrarma has to be constant for all the yugas. Basic Dharma is not subjective either.

“There is no end to imagination and and an endless war can be fought on these lines... with no real result at all. The only unpleasantness left out, probably, would be in our minds.”

Yes, Sir. When the Dharma is not properly understood, when basic dharma is not maintained, then there is a good possibility for unpleasantness to occur if not by our own hands, for sure by the enemies’ hands.

“I am attaching a link to a pdf (posted on the Ahobila Matam website) for the benefit of those who would like to see how a brahmin's lifestyle should be. Sampradhayams may vary, but the essentials will not.

Please click here.

For those who think that a brahmin should be, irrespective of the other varna, this is some food for thought.”


Sir, Swami Azhaghiyasinger has very nicely laid out the nithya karma’s and anushtaanams for a Srivaishnava. With due respect to Swami’s advices, personally I can never be a Srivaishnava. But, if someone likes to do all that, I will be more than happy to assist that person if I am asked to do so; and if such a requirement arises while I am around.

“The society, as we see today, does not allow a brahmin, to live the life of a brahmin.”

Sir, kindly allow me to disagree with you, please. Living the life of a Brahmin is a personal choice. The society as we see today has no say over the personal choices. One does not require society’s permission to live such a life.

“Learned people could challenge the credibility of a brahmin based on his practices today. A hue and cry could be raised about discriminatory practices.
The fact is - survival is difficult as the society does not protect a brahmin.”


Sri.Sapthajihva Sir, Why should the society protect a Brahmin? And, why should a Brahmin expect protection from a society? If there is a will, there is always a way.

“Had it been so, the practice would not have degenerated. And since, the first rule of varna dharma had been broken by the other varnas, brahmins had to break it to an extent.”

Sir, are you suggesting that the first rule of varna dharma is that other varnas should protect a Brahmin? If Brahmins were/are worthy of protection by the other varnas of the society, that would make one to think that Brahmins had/have the potential to make an important contribution to the society; that Brahmins were/are important part of the society which would naturally entail them to have an important say over all the matters concerning that society. If it is not right, kindly let me know, please. Thank you.

Sir, are you admitting that Brahmins broke the varna dharma? It does not matter to what extend. That is only academic, in my opinion. Is there a difference between a basic dharma and the varna dharma? (You may be referring to nithya karmanushtanams, pooja and punaskaarams as part of the varna dharma. If that is the case, yes, there is a difference between basic dharma and varna dharma).

“A humble request - For those brahmins who have doubts in their minds, please clear them from your respective sampradhaya Guru/Acharya. NOT FROM THIS FORUM.”

Respectable Sir, I already mentioned in a previous post that ‘no guru would touch me even with a ten feet pole’. Honestly, before joining this forum, all I read was ‘Srimad Baghavat Gita’. I had no doubt at all. Only after joining this forum I came across different details about ‘Srivaishnavas’; different schools of thought in Hinduism; The fact that manusmrithi is still alive and kicking; Siddhar paadalgal … many more things.

Sir, I do not follow any religion. I do have a soft spot for Hinduism, because I grew up in that religion. If required, and if I am around, I will protect anyone to follow their respective religion, to perform their respective religious rites as long as it does not harm others. I am more than happy to voice my opinions in favour of affected persons irrespective of their caste or religion. Sometimes I do ask pointed questions. I have no intention to hurt anyone’s feelings.

Cheers!
 
came across this bit of info which I think interesting. This may probably help in looking at Brahmins in a more objective light.

Source: The collected works of Mahatma Gandhi (vol 20, p 144, 448-449, )

Do you think you will gain anything by becoming non-Hindus, he told them , do not think you will gain anything by abusing, Brahmins or burning their homes. “Who were Tilak, Gokhale, Ranade and Agarkar?” he asked them. They were Brahmins, they were in the forefront of every nationalist struggle, they served the cause of non-Brahmins at the greatest cost to themselves, it is in many cases through the work of Brahmins that the non-Brahmins have been made aware of their rights, he told them. It is the Brahmins who exert for the uplift of the depressed classes, more than anybody else. Lokmanya Tilak is revered by all classes for his services to the country. The late Mr. Gokhale, Mr. Ranade and the Hon’ble Mr. Sastri have all done splendid work for the regeneration of the backward classes. You complain of the Brahmin bureaucracy. But let us compare it with the British bureaucracy. The latter follow the ‘divide and rule policy’ and maintains its authority by the power of the sword, whereas, the Brahmins have never restored to the force of arms and they have established their superiority by sheer force of their intellect, self-sacrifice, and penance. I appeal to my non-Brahmins brethren not to hate the Brahmin and not to be victims of the snares of the bureaucracy....

By indulging in violent contempt of a community which has produced men like Ramdas, Tulsidas, Ranade, Tilak and others,” he told the non-Brahmins, “it is impossible that you can rise.” By looking to the British for help you will sink deeper into slavery. "

“I have not a shadow of doubts,” he declared, “that Hinduism owes its all to the great traditions that the Brahmins have left for Hinduism. They have left a legacy for India, for which every nation, no matter to what varna he may belong owes a deep gratitude. Having studied the history of almost every religion in the world it is my settled conviction that there is no class in the world that has accepted poverty and self-effacement as its lot. " (The collected works of Mahatma Gandhi (vol 19, p 546)

Dharampal's book (The Beautiful Tree) has effectively debunked the myth that Dalits had no place in the indigenous system of education. Sir Thomas Munro, Governor of Madras, ordered a mammoth survey in June 1822, whereby the district collectors furnished the caste-wise division of students in four categories, viz., Brahmins, Vysyas (Vaishyas), Shoodras (Shudras) and other castes (broadly the modern scheduled castes). While the percentages of the different castes varied in each district, the results were revealing to the extent that they showed an impressive presence of the so-called lower castes in the school system.

Thus, in Vizagapatam, Brahmins and Vaishyas together accounted for 47% of the students, Shudras comprised 21% and the other castes (scheduled) were 20%; the remaining 12% were Muslims. In Tinnevelly, Brahmins were 21.8% of the total number of students, Shudras were 31.2% and other castes 38.4% (by no means a low figure). In South Arcot, Shudras and other castes together comprised more than 84% of the students!

In the realm of higher education as well, there were regional variations. Brahmins appear to have dominated in the Andhra and Tamil Nadu regions, but in the Malabar area, theology and law were Brahmin preserves, but astronomy and medicine were dominated by Shudras and other castes. Thus, of a total of 808 students in astronomy, only 78 were Brahmins, while 195 were Shudras and 510 belonged to the other castes (scheduled). In medicine, out of a total of 194 students, only 31 were Brahmins, 59 were Shudras and 100 belonged to the other castes. Even subjects like metaphysics and ethics that we generally associate with Brahmin supremacy, were dominated by the other castes (62) as opposed to merely 56 Brahmin students. It bears mentioning that this higher education was in the form of private tuition (or education at home), and to that extent also reflects the near equal economic power of the concerned groups.

As a concerned reader informed me, the ‘Survey of Indigenous Education in the Province of Bombay (1820-1830)’ showed that Brahmins were only 30% of the total students there. What is more, when William Adam surveyed Bengal and Bihar, he found that Brahmins and Kayasthas together comprised less than 40% of the total students, and that forty castes like Tanti, Teli, Napit, Sadgop, Tamli etc. were well represented in the student body. The Adam report mentions that in Burdwan district, while native schools had 674 students from the lowest thirty castes, the 13 missionary schools in the district together had only 86 students from those castes. Coming to teachers, Kayasthas triumphed with about 50% of the jobs and there were only six Chandal teachers; but Rajputs, Kshatriyas and Chattris (Khatris) together had only five teachers.

Even Dalit intellectuals have questioned what the British meant when they spoke of ‘education’ and ‘learning’. Dr. D.R. Nagaraj, a leading Dalit leader of Karnataka, wrote that it was the British, particularly Lord Wellesley, who declared the Vedantic Hinduism of the Brahmins of Benares and Navadweep as “the standard Hinduism,” because they realized that the vitality of the Hindu dharma of the lower castes was a threat to the empire. Fort William College, founded by Wellesley in 1800, played a major role in investing Vedantic learning with a prominence it probably hadn't had for centuries. In the process, the cultural heritage of the lower castes was successfully marginalized, and this remains an enduring legacy of colonialism. Examining Dharampal's “Indian science and technology in the eighteenth century,” Nagaraj observed that most of the native skills and technologies that perished as a result of British policies were those of the Dalit and artisan castes. This effectively debunks the fiction of Hindu-hating secularists that the so-called lower castes made no contribution to India's cultural heritage and needed deliverance from wily Brahmins.

Indeed, given the desperate manner in which the British vilified the Brahmin, it is worth examining what so annoyed them. As early as 1871-72, Sir John Campbell objected to Brahmins facilitating upward mobility: “…the Brahmans are always ready to receive all who will submit to them… The process of manufacturing Rajputs from ambitious aborigines (tribals) goes on before our eyes.”

ir Alfred Lyall (1796 - 1865) was unhappy and he wrote:

“…more persons in India become every year Brahmanists than all the converts to all the other religions in India put together... these teachers address themselves to every one without distinction of caste or of creed; they preach to low-caste men and to the aboriginal tribes… in fact, they succeed largely in those ranks of the population which would lean towards Christianity and Mohammedanism if they were not drawn into Brahmanism…”

So much for the British public denunciation of the exclusion practiced by Brahmins!

I think people who find fault with our scriptures and matams should first study the British and Islamic history in India. This will give an idea of how times were before this terrible era of subjugation and how things came to a change.
 
:)
Some relevant remarks:

So, have you become the adjudicater now??? It is not upon you to decide whose is a healthy pride or otherwise.

:) But hey i am entitled to my povs. And i think that ppl like Jamadagneya are unhealthy.

Again, implicit in your words is the presumption that there is vanity in some brahmins, inherent by following their dharma.

And how did you presume that?

I have to write volumes for that... it is obvious, but if you pretend not to understand it, I shall leave it that way.

Good for you.

Relativity is something which is quite a means to escape when it comes to non-consensual issues. And as far as logic is concerned, numbers do not matter, the gravity and brevity of the subject does. Saampradhayic thought is the traditional and authentic.

Those are your POVs. Sure you can keep yours, while i keep mine.

Thankyou and bye.
 
Dear Shri Raghy, Namaskarams
Respectable Sir, I made few comments in this thread. I don’t consider myself as a ‘forward thinker’;...... How ever, I can not accept Dharma could have any variables. Dhrarma has to be constant for all the yugas. Basic Dharma is not subjective either.
You are right. Dharma is like the core logic of a program. So the language can change, the logic remains. As regars types of dharma, there are general dharmas and specific dharmas. Normally, general dharmas prevail, and specific dharmas are situational.

'Do not tell lies' is a general dharma, but if the truth endangers a good athma, then act accordingly to save the life is the special dharma.

Sir, kindly allow me to disagree with you, please. Living the life of a Brahmin is a personal choice. The society as we see today has no say over the personal choices. One does not require society’s permission to live such a life.
Yes, it is a personal choice for some and a forced choice for others. We cannot generalize that it is a personal choice altogether. I differ from your view on this. The relationship is symbiotic. Hence there is bound to be two-way influences. Moreover, IMO, varna is by birth and hence it is no more a personal choice. Given the current scenario, it is not surprising that the situation is unpleasant for brahmins.

Sri.Sapthajihva Sir, Why should the society protect a Brahmin? And, why should a Brahmin expect protection from a society? If there is a will, there is always a way.
Protection is sustenance. If a brahmin does his nithyakarmas and anushtanams and adhyayanams, hardly any time is left to accumulate for existence. It is where the dharma of the society comes in. By protection, I meant co-existence. When this concept is extinct (in the context of varnashrama), there is hardly any brahmin, who could perform 100% of the karmas, except perhaps for matams.

Sir, are you suggesting that the first rule of varna dharma is that other varnas should protect a Brahmin? If Brahmins were/are worthy of protection by the other varnas of the society, that would make one to think that Brahmins had/have the potential to make an important contribution to the society; that Brahmins were/are important part of the society which would naturally entail them to have an important say over all the matters concerning that society. If it is not right, kindly let me know, please. Thank you.
Spiritual importance is what I meant. Please read the earlier para. Since, the brahmin is one with material detachment (read as impartial) and well versed in dharma shasthras, he is the best person to guide the society!

Sir, are you admitting that Brahmins broke the varna dharma? It does not matter to what extend. That is only academic, in my opinion. Is there a difference between a basic dharma and the varna dharma? (You may be referring to nithya karmanushtanams, pooja and punaskaarams as part of the varna dharma. If that is the case, yes, there is a difference between basic dharma and varna dharma).
Yes, there is a difference between varna dharma and svadharma. The former is a result of birth in a particular varna and the latter is a result of birth as a human.

.........................

Shri Raghy, I have given an interpretation to some of the verses quoted by happyhindu from a translated version of Manusmrithi. If, I, an agnyani can see another meaning, imagine the plethora of options before a Panditha! Also, the meanings could be highly contextual, symbolic, and mostly having an inner meaning. If one starts jumping on caste as an ignominy, then, directly or indirectly, it is hurting the sentiments of those who follow them in good faith and for a different purpose. Individual understanding is different, and we can never generalize.

This is why I strongly object to sweeping generalizations like caste itself is discriminatory.... brahmins were the perpetrators of injustice... and so on. That too, in this forum.
..............................

Thank you for your reply. However, I should think that you accord me too much respect, while you write. I am neither that learned nor that aged. :)

Regards,
 
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