Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

[pvraman]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn WhatsApp Email Share Link

Dear Sri Ramansrini,

Thanks for the link,

I fully agree that in olden days, caste system prohibited Dalits from having equal rights as of other castes. They were subjected to inhuman treatment. It was age old practice, i have not, so for found any proof, why a section of the people had been made like that, convincingly.

Everybody acknowledges that they should not be treated like that, we too hear voices and actions from forward thinking people to get rid of this. Govt has a rule to treat them equally. In cities we don't find this kind of treatment. Now we have Dalit leaders, and the voting power of the people, so we can see lot of changes in their status esp in villages.

MY POV is that, as long as Hinduism accepts various ways to reach the god, due to that difference, groups are bound to exist. We should see how to treat each other equal and with respect.

Regards

 

[renuka]

Dear Happy Hindu,

You know sometimes i really fail to understand you fully.
Here I see you are really wanting everyone regardless of caste to be admitted into Vedic schools to learn Vedas but in a different thread you told me you would not mind children having interreligious marriage as long the other person is good.

If at the end of the day interrelligious marriages can be accepted why go through the trouble learning the Vedas at all?

Vedic lifestyle is not easy to follow and needs discipline,faith and behaviour modifications and mental conditioning which cannot happen overnight or even in one birth and this applies for everyone regardless of caste/creed.
Mere recital of Vedas does not mean one is following a Vedic lifestyle.
Anyone can recite Vedas if they want.

After all didnt the parrots in the house of Mandana Misra recite Vedic Verses?

Vedic lifestyle is much more than that.

Its assimilation of what is learned and its application that makes a person learned.

Sathyam Vada, Dharmam Chara is not as easy as it sounds.

Thats why in Kaliyuga Namasmaranam is advocated for all caste/races/religions etc.

I hope you dont get me wrong here. I was just giving my honest opinion.

 

[Curious]

I’m from city. This is what I have seen. During my school days, the lower caste people used to come to our house to do menial (most people know what I mean) jobs. They were not allowed in our house. I definitely saw they were not given respect. When I’m in college, some of my lower caste friends used to come to our house. They get the same treatment as me and sometimes more because they were guest. In fact, my project mate is from lower caste. We did our project from home. This tells me the lower caste folks should stop doing menial jobs. They should get better education and progress higher. I’m really glad government has introduced sewage trucks. No more human waste removed by humans. I guess by making use of technologies and tools for menial jobs, the situation of lower caste people will be improved. This may sound stupid. May be government should make all menial services done by humans expensive. This way it will force all people to do all their nice and menial work themselves. When my white friend went to India, he was surprised that his driver did not allow him to replace the punctured tire. He asked me what is wrong in helping driver in replacing the tire.

As far as village, I have to find out. When I see Tamil movies and Tamil news, I can see the picture over there. But, I never verified it.

I don’t know. I created a thread in “share your knowledge” section. The thread is about Hinduism book for me. The thread never appeared. I do full time work and part time business. I need some good book for intro on Hinduism. If anybody can suggest me a good book I will be really happy. My experience with books: There are tons on each subject. But, only few are gems. Pls. suggest me some nice book.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Dear Curious,

Glad to know you and your interest in religion.
if you dont mind can i ask you whether you are staying in india?
if you are then you have a good variety of books to choose from from.

i would recommend you to read books written by Swami Vivekananda and Swami Paramahansa Yogananada and Swami Sivananda.
You can also get books from Sathya Sai organization in Puttaparthi.
the books are easy to understand and concentrate more on humanity and the essence of the Vedas.
there also various levels of books, for the beginners, intermediate and the advanced seekers.

i can just give you a few books now.

read An Autobiography of a Yogi by Swami Yogananda.

good books on religion can be got from Sri Ramakrishna Math
their website is www.sriramakrishnamath.org

Central Chinmaya Mission trust books are also very useful.

you can also read Sathya Sai Speaks various volumes available
Summer Discourses in Brindavan
Sathya Sai Geeta series
Prema Vahini etc


if you are looking for a simple well explained Bhagavad Geeta you can read Shreemad Bhagavad geeta (Yatharth Geeta) by Swami Adgananda

if i have more i will post for you later.
this is all i can remember from memeory now.

renu

 

[Curious]

Renu ji,

I’m in U.S. My parents are in India. I can ask my parents to ship it. I’m really a beginner. I forgot all I learned at school. Your help is really appreciated. Thanks.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

What if they are not content with chanting Rama Nama, but want to learn Vedas.

"Let them eat cake" supposedly said Queen Marie Antoinette. Look what happened to her. Fortunately, not many care to learn Vedas, particularly Brahmins

Liberty, Egality, Fraternity!!!

There are several Hindu organisations teaching vedhas and let them learn from it.

Kanchi mutt follows Advaitha philosophy. Only Smartha brahmins are suppose to be followers of Advaitha philosophy. Kanchi mutt doesn't indulge in conversion of other communities into smartha brahmins. Other communities among Hindus have their own philosophies. Vaishanavites follow Bagavath Ramanujar. Madhvas follow Dwaitha philosophy. There are pure saiva worshippers in Tamilnadu. Similarly there are pure Amman worshippers and Murugan worshippers. Only Smartha brahmins worship all these Gods. At the same time, they don't have any priestly rights in any of the temples of these Gods.

Kanchi mutt runs few Vedha Patasalas through private trusts. They are not getting any Government support for them. Apart from the income earned through properties of these trusts (created through donations from Smartha Brahmins generations back), donations are collected only from Smartha Brahmins. Those who qualify from these Vedha Patasalas take up Purohit profession for their lively hood. It is a pure private affair without affecting any other community or faith. The successors of Kanchi Acharyas are selected only from these Vedha Patasalas.

I earnestly feel that other communities should not interfere in this. Targeting Kanchi Mutt and its Vedha Patasalas is nothing but an attempt to encroach the internal affairs of this traditional mutt. Kanchi mutt is not interfering in the affairs of other faiths also.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Happy Hindu,

You know sometimes i really fail to understand you fully.

No one can understand a person thru forum conversations.

Here I see you are really wanting everyone regardless of caste to be admitted into Vedic schools to learn Vedas but in a different thread you told me you would not mind children having interreligious marriage as long the other person is good.

If at the end of the day interrelligious marriages can be accepted why go through the trouble learning the Vedas at all?

What i am is my personal side. That has nothing to do with anyone. I can only guide the younger lot and leave the rest to them and to god. And i will accept whatever choices they make. Am not inclined to impose anything on them. And that's a personal affair.

What the expectations of other people are, is what i am reflecting here. They want equality in the religious domain. And i do not see anything wrong with it. And please note that this is not a private affair, it involves the masses, and it is a social affair / social issue.

Vedic lifestyle is not easy to follow and needs discipline,faith and behaviour modifications and mental conditioning which cannot happen overnight or even in one birth and this applies for everyone regardless of caste/creed.
Mere recital of Vedas does not mean one is following a Vedic lifestyle.
Anyone can recite Vedas if they want.

Its not for us to decide what is easy or not. Personally yes i do not think it is easy. But if there are some ppl willing to live that kind of a life, why prevent, them, stop them, put barriers called "by birth" on them.

I do think this jaati-dharma is an unnatural system. It prevents people from living their inherent varna. If someone born in a 'dalit' family is so inclined towards a religious life and wants to learn vedas and live a spiritual life, who is anyone to stop him from that? It is god who has made him like that. How can any man stop him by giving the excuse of so-called dharma (which is actually adharma)?

After all didnt the parrots in the house of Mandana Misra recite Vedic Verses?

Vedic lifestyle is much more than that.

Its assimilation of what is learned and its application that makes a person learned.

Sathyam Vada, Dharmam Chara is not as easy as it sounds.

Thats why in Kaliyuga Namasmaranam is advocated for all caste/races/religions etc.

I hope you dont get me wrong here. I was just giving my honest opinion.

If parrots are "allowed" to chant the vedas, why not humans?

And who am i to decide if namasmaranam is sufficient for you or for anyone?

Its just that, i do not think we have any right to recommend to people what they must follow or not.


Renu, no i don't get you wrong at all. Infact you remind me a lot of myself (from the way you write, that is).

 

[happyhindu]

Kanchi mutt runs few Vedha Patasalas through private trusts. They are not getting any Government support for them. Apart from the income earned through properties of these trusts (created through donations from Smartha Brahmins generations back), donations are collected only from Smartha Brahmins. Those who qualify from these Vedha Patasalas take up Purohit profession for their lively hood. It is a pure private affair without affecting any other community or faith. The successors of Kanchi Acharyas are selected only from these Vedha Patasalas.

I earnestly feel that other communities should not interfere in this. Targeting Kanchi Mutt and its Vedha Patasalas is nothing but an attempt to encroach the internal affairs of this traditional mutt. Kanchi mutt is not interfering in the affairs of other faiths also.

Sir, am not touching upon how the mutt is run. But wud like to bring this to your notice:

Please do not overlook that the mutt directs people to follow certain things. They endorse and advocate jaati-dharma for all communities. So one cannot claim that the mutt is not affecting any other community.

Regards.

 

[RVR]

Sir, am not touching upon how the mutt is run. But wud like to bring this to your notice:

Please do not overlook that the mutt directs people to follow certain things. They endorse and advocate jaati-dharma for all communities. So one cannot claim that the mutt is not affecting any other community.

Regards.

Mutt has least influence on other communities except smartha brahmins. Mutt has influence only on smartha brahmins which is also not 100%.

Each community follows their own Jathi Dharma and mutt has nothing to do with that.

When all the Sankaracharyas tried to mediate on Ayodhya dispute, certain organisations bluntly told that they are not pure vaishavites and hence should not interfere in a Vaishnavite temple affair.

Saivaites refuse to accept the Advaitha Philosophy and objected to Kanchi Acharya's appointment to Nellaiappar temple renovation committee.

Kanchi Acharya cannot perform pooja directly to Kamakshi Amman at Kanchi which is under the direct administration of Kanchi Mutt.

Let everybody realises the discrimination of Kanchi Acharyas and Smarthas before accusing the finger against them

All the best

 

[Raghy]

Sri.RVR Sir,

You almost sound as if Sankara mutt and smartha brahmins are a seperate religion. If that is the case, then it is perfectly alright for you to protest the interferference from NB hindus in the affairs of the mutt. But Sankara mutt makes a representation for all the Hindu faith. So, naturally, all the Hindus like to take part in it. If you call iyer, iyengar, smartha, mudaliyar, naicker...(kindly fill all the other castes, please), by the hinus, placing them all under the same religion, then one day some one is bound to point at a smartha brahmin and say...'Can I have what he is having, please?'... you may say 'no' only for so long; then, there are going to be more voices, not requesting but demanding ' we want to have what he is having!'. For all the intends and purposes, no one really likes to have 'what he is having'. If it is open for all, then you may have to pay money to get someone to have 'what he is having!'. Since that is not the case, there are so many demands 'to have what he is having'. (Mind you, the mutt should thank God, for the girls have not demanded to have 'what he is having'!....Not yet)!

"Kanchi mutt is not interfering in the affairs of other faiths also."

This is not applicable for the discussion.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

Sri.RVR Sir,

You almost sound as if Sankara mutt and smartha brahmins are a seperate religion. If that is the case, then it is perfectly alright for you to protest the interferference from NB hindus in the affairs of the mutt. But Sankara mutt makes a representation for all the Hindu faith. So, naturally, all the Hindus like to take part in it. If you call iyer, iyengar, smartha, mudaliyar, naicker...(kindly fill all the other castes, please), by the hinus, placing them all under the same religion, then one day some one is bound to point at a smartha brahmin and say...'Can I have what he is having, please?'... you may say 'no' only for so long; then, there are going to be more voices, not requesting but demanding ' we want to have what he is having!'. For all the intends and purposes, no one really likes to have 'what he is having'. If it is open for all, then you may have to pay money to get someone to have 'what he is having!'. Since that is not the case, there are so many demands 'to have what he is having'. (Mind you, the mutt should thank God, for the girls have not demanded to have 'what he is having'!....Not yet)!

"Kanchi mutt is not interfering in the affairs of other faiths also."

This is not applicable for the discussion.

Cheers!

Shri Raghy,

Please read all my postings before making any conclusions.

Kanchi mutt has traditional following only among smartha brahmins. Till few years back mostly smartha brahmins alone will visit Kanchi Mutt. May be 90% smartha brahmins and 10% others.

Now most of the other communities have started visitng the mutt. It is a welcome change. It may be because of the charitable works being performed by the mutt covering education, medical and others covering all communities. The following is the broad list of institutions:

Institutions supported by Sri Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam

There are several other institutions running outside the above list.

Almost all the instituions are running as independent trusts.

Except Vedha Patasalas, the mutt doesn't discriminate and is open to all communities.

But Vedha Patasalas run under the blessings of Kanchi mutt trains purohits for Smartha brahmin community which is being done traditionally. Only smartha brahmins support such vedha patasalas for several decades.

These vedha patasalas are meant for poor smartha brahmin boys taking up `Puruhit' profession. Incidentally future acharyas are selected only from these Patasalas. They cannot be appointed as temple priests and only fellow smartha brahmin grahastas are supporting them. Why other communities want to interfere with this practice?

Like pure Vaishanvaites and pure Saivates, only smarthas can claim as followers of pure `Advaitha Philosophy'. Kanchi mutt is established to propagate advaita philosophy only. Hence there is nothing wrong in smarthas supporting the mutt and vice versa. This mutual support is going on for several centuries. Now why do you want to break it?

But for Adhi Sankara, we would have had several religions. He integrated all the faiths and formed `Shunmatha Stapanam'. Still followers of individual faiths doesn't accept Kanchi acharya as their Guru. No harm in it. I am not questioning it. But why people target only Kanchi Vedha Patasalas alone. Is it because it supports its traditional followers `smartha brahmins'?

All the best

 

[Raghy]

Sri.RVR Sir,

I do follow most if not all your posts in this topic. I am 100% in agreement with you about the social welfare undertakings by the mutt. The face of the mutt has changed to better since Paramacharyal at the peedam.

“Except Vedha Patasalas, the mutt doesn't discriminate and is open to all communities.”

Sri.RVR Sir, I like to remind you the fairy tales….’you are welcome to enter any of the 100 rooms in the castle and enjoy your stay; but, a word of caution! Don’t enter the locked room in the north side…!’ Remember, leaving all the 100 rooms, one would enter the locked room after finding the key with great difficulty! Human psychology, my friend that says if something is denied, then nothing can be better than that! Let’s get it!

“These vedha patasalas are meant for poor smartha brahmin boys taking up `Puruhit' profession.”

Not everyone enrolled would complete the course; of the very few people completed, not everyone would become a ‘purohit’; of the very very few that become purohit, may continue after the initial period! The vedha padasala for the poor smartha Brahmin boys may continue while a separate section may be operated with exactly same curriculum for interested NB boys (and girls… man, when they enter, there is no denying them; mark my words, my friend!).

“Incidentally future acharyas are selected only from these Patasalas.”

By all means, it can continue. Do you really think people would line up to place ‘pindam’ for their parents when they are alive? ‘suyam pindam’ would be possible; but, ‘pithru pindam’ when they are alive?

“only smarthas can claim as followers of pure `Advaitha Philosophy'.”

Sri.RVR Sir, I am disappointed to hear this from you. I sincerely hope you would reconsider, please. Advaitha philosophy is common for all the persons. In Kasi, a pulayan said to Sri.Adi Sankara ‘the same God that resides in you resides in me too; so, why should the god in you get the right of way over the god in me?’ (Have you watched the triology ‘Matrix’ movies? They were based on advaitha philosophies’).

“Hence there is nothing wrong in smarthas supporting the mutt and vice versa. This mutual support is going on for several centuries. Now why do you want to break it?”

SRI.RVR Sir, how can you entertain such negative thoughts? Who is talking about breaking the mutual support between the mutt and the smarthas? By your own admission, the mutt is involved in many social welfare activities. Then, why can’t the mutt think of a way to spread the education too? That would not make everyone ‘smarthas’ anyway. I studied from a salesian Catholic school; I am not exactly a catholic, am I?

“(He) Sri.Adi Sankara Achryal integrated all the faiths and formed `Shunmatha Stapanam'.”

Then why can’t the ‘shunmatha’ learn smartha sampradhayam in the veda padasala? Sir, millions of persons across the hindu faith in Tamil Nadu Kanchi Acharyal as ‘manaseeka Guru’. Kindly try to understand; Sankara mutt is not an exclusive property of Smarthas anymore.

Sincerely I can’t understand why should Sankara mutt resist the opportunity to reach across to all the people there by strengthening the faith for all the persons.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

Sri Raghy,

I just want to remind you of one thing. Kanchi mutt never had huge properties unlike other temples and mutts. Even for feeding the visitors, donations in kind were collected from Smartha brahmin villages. My own father use to donate paddy every year. Paramacharyal was running mutt like that. If somebody comes out with any charitable scheme, he use to advice them to do charity directly by himself and will not involve the mutt. Those days mostly smartha brahmin community use to visit the mutt.

The vedha patasalas were run by smartha brahmin community independently with the blessings of the mutt.

But present Acharya encouraged forming of multiple trusts to run institutions covering medical, education etc. There is also criticism that these institutions are not running efficiently.

When the present Acharya and his junior were arrested, most of the media, tv channels propagated lot of adverse publicity against the Acharyas and the mutt. How they can do such adverse publicity against their own `Manasiga Guru'. Whatever you are talking as `Manasiga Guru' is not correct and still only Smartha Brahmins are his true devotees.

May be the popularity of Kanchi mutt was not to the liking of fellow Hindus following individual faiths instead of multiple faith as practiced by Advaithis. Still the case is going on in the court and Acharyas are working in crimpled condition. Under the present circumstances, it is not proper to expect further reforms in the mutt. The present senior Acharya is already aging and may retire from day to day activities. The present Junior Acharya will take some time to settle on his own.

Now from the present court proceedings, it is almost certain that the alleged crime could not be proved and Acharyas may get totally discharged. May be it is not to the liking of several others. Only way to disgrace the mutt and acharyas is by to attacking Vedha Patasalas and certain practices in the mutt.

Every religion has its own discriminatory practices and Hindu religion is no exception. Within Hindu religion also there are several discriminatory practices which are still going and almost all the communities & faiths are very much involved in it. Targeting only Kanchi Mutt and Acharyas is nothing but a motivated attempt to bring disgrace to the Mutt and Acharyas.

Let others keep their house in order before accusing a finger against Kanchi Mutt and Acharyas.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

RVR ji,

Mutt has least influence on other communities except smartha brahmins. Mutt has influence only on smartha brahmins which is also not 100%.

No sorry. The mutt categorizes communities, openly practices birth-based segregation, and directs all hindu to follow their 'jaati-dharma'. You cannot claim it has no influence on other communities.

More over it asks hindus to follow smrithis, or outdated laws in this age. If people were to follow smrithis, it means, a 'dalit' must be kept an outcaste. The indian constitution does not permit such practices. Merely pointing fingers at other communities is not enough. The hindu liturgy must give up its scriptural sanction of such practices.

The supreme court has also passed a law that anyone can become a priest, irrespective of caste. Institutions, that prevent that cannot claim to be "not influencing" anyone.

Each community follows their own Jathi Dharma and mutt has nothing to do with that.

Which community is practicing its 'own jati dharma' now? How many padayachis, vellalars, etc profess only farming now? How many mudaliyars, nattars, naikers, etc are administrators now? And by the way, what is jati-dharma?

No sir, people are no longer practicing the profession of their recent-past or immediate-past ancestors. And even if a mutt asks them to do that, no one will care, because they are not affected by it.

The question of jaati-dharma is affecting only those who have been ill-treated by ALL hindus all this while - the ''dalits'. And they want equality in hindusim, which i think is their birth right.

When all the Sankaracharyas tried to mediate on Ayodhya dispute, certain organisations bluntly told that they are not pure vaishavites and hence should not interfere in a Vaishnavite temple affair.

Saivaites refuse to accept the Advaitha Philosophy and objected to Kanchi Acharya's appointment to Nellaiappar temple renovation committee.

Kanchi Acharya cannot perform pooja directly to Kamakshi Amman at Kanchi which is under the direct administration of Kanchi Mutt.

Let everybody realises the discrimination of Kanchi Acharyas and Smarthas before accusing the finger against them

None of these issues have anything to do with opening admission for all communities in vedic schools.

Regards.

 

[happyhindu]

Now from the present court proceedings, it is almost certain that the alleged crime could not be proved and Acharyas may get totally discharged. May be it is not to the liking of several others. Only way to disgrace the mutt and acharyas is by to attacking Vedha Patasalas and certain practices in the mutt.

There is no crime at all, therefore no question of proving it. It is the administration side of the mutt that has not maintained proper records and the case (imo) pertains to that aspect - it has nothing to do with acharyas and definitely they must be and will be freed.

Why do you think that opening admission to all communities in veda patshalas is a "disgrace" to the mutt?

Are you saying that non-brahmins are a disgrace ?

Every religion has its own discriminatory practices and Hindu religion is no exception. Within Hindu religion also there are several discriminatory practices which are still going and almost all the communities & faiths are very much involved in it. Targeting only Kanchi Mutt and Acharyas is nothing but a motivated attempt to bring disgrace to the Mutt and Acharyas.

Let others keep their house in order before accusing a finger against Kanchi Mutt and Acharyas.

Why talk about other religions. I am talking about my own religion - hinduism. And as a practicing hindu, i have every right to talk about it. And if things are not proper within my own home, what right do i have to point out fraud in other religions..

 

[RVR]

Ms.Happy Hindu

My replies are in blue

RVR ji,



No sorry. The mutt categorizes communities, openly practices birth-based segregation, and directs all hindu to follow their 'jaati-dharma'. You cannot claim it has no influence on other communities.

When the Acharyas were arrested, almost all the Hindu communities except few talked against them and the mutt. My own closed friends belonging to NB communities, who normally doesn't talk ill of Acharyas, were trying to convince me that he done a crime. I just told them at that time, truth alone will triumph at end which is going to happen now.It is not correct that Kanchi mutt and Acharyas have influence over entire Hindu religion. At best they are Gurus of a particular sect only.

More over it asks hindus to follow smrithis, or outdated laws in this age. If people were to follow smrithis, it means, a 'dalit' must be kept an outcaste. The indian constitution does not permit such practices. Merely pointing fingers at other communities is not enough. The hindu liturgy must give up its scriptural sanction of such practices.

The supreme court has also passed a law that anyone can become a priest, irrespective of caste. Institutions, that prevent that cannot claim to be "not influencing" anyone.

If the Acharyas practice untouchability, let the law takes its own course. A dalith leader has openly acknowledged that the present acharya is not practicing untouchability

The Hindu : Tamil Nadu News : `Kanchi Acharya first pontiff to mingle with Dalits'



Which community is practicing its 'own jati dharma' now? How many padayachis, vellalars, etc profess only farming now? How many mudaliyars, nattars, naikers, etc are administrators now? And by the way, what is jati-dharma?

No sir, people are no longer practicing the profession of their recent-past or immediate-past ancestors. And even if a mutt asks them to do that, no one will care, because they are not affected by it.

The question of jaati-dharma is affecting only those who have been ill-treated by ALL hindus all this while - the ''dalits'. And they want equality in hindusim, which i think is their birth right.

Why each Jathi has got its own Sangam. Vanniar Sangam, Thevar Peravai, Ambedkar Iyakkam like that. They have even political parties for each Jathi. May be the same job meant for the particular Jathi is not done by the entire community members but they don't want to give up caste tag for obvious reasons.



None of these issues have anything to do with opening admission for all communities in vedic schools.

Vedic Schools are run mostly by smartha brahmin community for grooming purohits for their community. Kanchi mutt is doing only this service for the smartha brahmins who are their followers traditionally. It is done purely as a private affair and need not be open for the public.

Regards.

All the best

 

[RVR]

Originally Posted by RVR
Now from the present court proceedings, it is almost certain that the alleged crime could not be proved and Acharyas may get totally discharged. May be it is not to the liking of several others. Only way to disgrace the mutt and acharyas is by to attacking Vedha Patasalas and certain practices in the mutt.
There is no crime at all, therefore no question of proving it. It is the administration side of the mutt that has not maintained proper records and the case (imo) pertains to that aspect - it has nothing to do with acharyas and definitely they must be and will be freed.

Why do you think that opening admission to all communities in veda patshalas is a "disgrace" to the mutt?

Are you saying that non-brahmins are a disgrace ?


I never said any community as disgrace.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

No sorry. The mutt categorizes communities, openly practices birth-based segregation, and directs all hindu to follow their 'jaati-dharma'. You cannot claim it has no influence on other communities.

When the Acharyas were arrested, almost all the Hindu communities except few talked against them and the mutt. My own closed friends belonging to NB communities, who normally doesn't talk ill of Acharyas, were trying to convince me that he done a crime. I just told them at that time, truth alone will triumph at end which is going to happen now.It is not correct that Kanchi mutt and Acharyas have influence over entire Hindu religion. At best they are Gurus of a particular sect only.

What has the opinion of a few people on the arrest, got to do with opening admissions for all in vedic schools?

The mutt does practice birth based segregations and tells people to follow smrithis - and i really do not know on what basis you claim that it has no influence over other communities.

More over it asks hindus to follow smrithis, or outdated laws in this age. If people were to follow smrithis, it means, a 'dalit' must be kept an outcaste. The indian constitution does not permit such practices. Merely pointing fingers at other communities is not enough. The hindu liturgy must give up its scriptural sanction of such practices.

The supreme court has also passed a law that anyone can become a priest, irrespective of caste. Institutions, that prevent that cannot claim to be "not influencing" anyone.

If the Acharyas practice untouchability, let the law takes its own course. A dalith leader has openly acknowledged that the present acharya is not practicing untouchability

The Hindu : Tamil Nadu News : `Kanchi Acharya first pontiff to mingle with Dalits'

What has acharyas practicing untouchability or not, got to do with opening admissions in vedic schools?

Which community is practicing its 'own jati dharma' now? How many padayachis, vellalars, etc profess only farming now? How many mudaliyars, nattars, naikers, etc are administrators now? And by the way, what is jati-dharma?

No sir, people are no longer practicing the profession of their recent-past or immediate-past ancestors. And even if a mutt asks them to do that, no one will care, because they are not affected by it.

The question of jaati-dharma is affecting only those who have been ill-treated by ALL hindus all this while - the ''dalits'. And they want equality in hindusim, which i think is their birth right.

Why each Jathi has got its own Sangam. Vanniar Sangam, Thevar Peravai, Ambedkar Iyakkam like that. They have even political parties for each Jathi. May be the same job meant for the particular Jathi is not done by the entire community members but they don't want to give up caste tag for obvious reasons.

All these jathi sangams and associations, both in north and south india, cropped up only since the very-late-colonial period. They helped people to file court cases for varna status in the colonial period and now they are a relic of their past claims. Lets see how long they will last in this fast paced world.

And anyways, what has admission to vedic schools got to do with such associations?

None of these issues have anything to do with opening admission for all communities in vedic schools.

Vedic Schools are run mostly by smartha brahmin community for grooming purohits for their community. Kanchi mutt is doing only this service for the smartha brahmins who are their followers traditionally. It is done purely as a private affair and need not be open for the public.

Religion is not a private affair when it takes on the role (or seeks to take on the role) of directing all hindus. If it does so, then it takes on a 'public role' and is no longer a private affair. Kanchi mutt has already taken on the public role of categorizing communities and propagating smrithis.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.RVR Sir,

There seems to be some misunderstanding lurking about the respect Sankara Mutt has amoung the NB Hindus. I shall write a detaled reply tomorrow. I have to assure you one thing though; I am not trying to degrade Sankara mutt in anyway. On the contrary, I wish to convey supporting messages only. I have seen the students chanting rudhram in the padasala. My personal policies not withstanding, I always enjoyed watching those kids involved in something with dreams and hopes. Kindly allow me to stop here. thank you.

cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Originally Posted by RVR
Now from the present court proceedings, it is almost certain that the alleged crime could not be proved and Acharyas may get totally discharged. May be it is not to the liking of several others. Only way to disgrace the mutt and acharyas is by to attacking Vedha Patasalas and certain practices in the mutt.

Posted by happyhindu
There is no crime at all, therefore no question of proving it. It is the administration side of the mutt that has not maintained proper records and the case (imo) pertains to that aspect - it has nothing to do with acharyas and definitely they must be and will be freed.Why do you think that opening admission to all communities in veda patshalas is a "disgrace" to the mutt?

Are you saying that non-brahmins are a disgrace ?

I never said any community as disgrace.

All the best

Why then sir, do you think that opening admissions for all in veda patshalas is a disgrace to the mutt?

And kindly note:
i have not criticized any practices of the shankara mutts. What i have done is to point out discrepencies in the teachings of ekadandis of shankara mutts and those of non-shankara mutts.

That does not mean that the monks on either side are critical of each other's practices, nor do others (like me) need to criticize the practices of either side.

Nor does anyone need to accept that the practices of only one side is "right". Both exist, as 2 equal halves, as equal truths..and all forms of truth are valid.

What i follow is my personal side and it has nothing to do with others. Am not expecting anyone to accept that only one path is the right path. Am very well aware that all roads lead to rome.

And anyways, this is about the system of following or not following purva mimansa ritualism. And why only shankara and non-shankara ekadandis, there are so many unexplored monastic traditions in india - god knows what each follows. But this topic of practices has nothing to do with admission to vedic schools.

Regards.

 

[RVR]

The Vedha padasalas mostly train students on the practices of conducting various functions associated with Brahmin community. The Kanchi mutt associated vedha padasalas train students on smartha sampradhaya of various functions like Amavasya tharpanam,Upanayanam, Vivaham, Apakarmas related to death etc as practiced by smartha brahmins.

While students are trained in reciting vedhas to some extent, they are not taught the meanings. Hence students who come out of these patasalas are trained mostly smartha brahmin related practices, their knowledge of its meanings etc will be almost nil.

Again among smartha brahmins, the practices changes with respect to the mother tongue. While Tamil Smartha brahmins have mostly common practices, telugu/kannada smartha brahmins will have some variations. Few months back I attended a Telugu smartha brahmin marriage in Hyderabad where the marriage itself was conducted in the evening which is not acceptable to Tamil Smartha Brahmins.

Those who come out of these patasalas can at best practice as Purohits for smartha brahmin community. They will not be allowed to perform poojas like Gurukkal, Battachariar or Poojari of temples.

Each community within Hindus will have their own practices and mostly will not teach it to other communities. It is purely personal beliefs and practices which I think other communities should not try to encroach.

I earnestly feel that the role of Vedha Patasalas is mistaken here that they teach only Vedhas. They just produce prohits for smartha brahmin community.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

The Vedha padasalas mostly train students on the practices of conducting various functions associated with Brahmin community. The Kanchi mutt associated vedha padasalas train students on smartha sampradhaya of various functions like Amavasya tharpanam,Upanayanam, Vivaham, Apakarmas related to death etc as practiced by smartha brahmins.

While students are trained in reciting vedhas to some extent, they are not taught the meanings. Hence students who come out of these patasalas are trained mostly smartha brahmin related practices, their knowledge of its meanings etc will be almost nil.

Again among smartha brahmins, the practices changes with respect to the mother tongue. While Tamil Smartha brahmins have mostly common practices, telugu/kannada smartha brahmins will have some variations. Few months back I attended a Telugu smartha brahmin marriage in Hyderabad where the marriage itself was conducted in the evening which is not acceptable to Tamil Smartha Brahmins.

Those who come out of these patasalas can at best practice as Purohits for smartha brahmin community. They will not be allowed to perform poojas like Gurukkal, Battachariar or Poojari of temples.

Each community within Hindus will have their own practices and mostly will not teach it to other communities. It is purely personal beliefs and practices which I think other communities should not try to encroach.

I earnestly feel that the role of Vedha Patasalas is mistaken here that they teach only Vedhas. They just produce prohits for smartha brahmin community.

All the best

Sir,

1) Don't know why you think only smartha brahmins follow shanmata worship. No sir, almost all hindu pray to all dieties (with the exception of certain sects like the vaishnavas who pray only to vishnu, lakshmi and select deities). A devi worshipper goes to vishnu, shiva, ganesh, karthikeya, kali, durga, etc, temples and so do other hindus.

2) The role of the veda patshalas is not mistaken. We are talking about ppl who want to be purohits only.

3) I do not think these purohits serve just the smatha brahmin community. They officiate as priests for weddings, and other ceremonies for other communities too.

Regards.

 

[RVR]

Ms Happy Hindu

Sir,

1) Don't know why you think only smartha brahmins follow shanmata worship. No sir, almost all hindu pray to all dieties (with the exception of certain sects like the vaishnavas who pray only to vishnu, lakshmi and select deities). A devi worshipper goes to vishnu, shiva, ganesh, karthikeya, kali, durga, etc, temples and so do other hindus.

In my village, my community consisting of 60 plus brahmin families worship both at Sivan and Perumal temples regularly. We had one gurukkal, one battachariar, one madhva and one telugu brahmin family in the agraharam. We cover almost all Gods in these temples like Amman, Pillayar, Subramanyar and Sun completing the Shunmatha worship.

Among NB communities,

Pillai group use to worship only at Mariamman temple placed near their residential location.

Thevar/Vanniar communities worship at a Kali temple (Kulundalamman)

Daliths worship in the Kali temple as well as an Ayyanar temple near their residentical location.

In an adjoining village, Chettiars use to worship a Pillayar near their residential location

Now most of the brahmins have left the village except few families and practically no visitors to both Sivan and Perumal temples.

Murugan worship is most common among NB communities and they use to take `Kavadi' to Ettugudi Murugan temple ( Near our CM Karunanidhi's native village Thirukkuvalai.

Worship is still exclusive for different communities and they have not changed till Dec 25th 2009 when visited last.

2) The role of the veda patshalas is not mistaken. We are talking about ppl who want to be purohits only.

In my native place, the Saiva Adheenams such as Dharmapuram, Thiruvaduthurai and Thiruppanandal trains priests for NB community.

3) I do not think these purohits serve just the smatha brahmin community. They officiate as priests for weddings, and other ceremonies for other communities too.

In my village, the lone Telugu brahmin use to act as priest for NB community (excluding Daliths) and others don't act as priest for NB community.

Regards.

Those who come out of Vedha Patasalas are not experts in Vedhas. They just mug up without knowing the meanings and perform various functions for the Grahastas of smartha brahmins.

All the best

 

[pvraman]

Its really thought provoking to read Ms HH Ji's various Posts, as to why some of the interested Dalits can not be admitted to study veda in Sankara Mutt. Unfortunately in my younger days, my group used to make indirect fun of my friend who was very disciplined in doing sandhya vandhanam. 'இடியே விழுந்தாலும்', he did sandhya vandhanam and used to attend Padashalas with little kudumi, he still lives a very modest life. I still could not forget the way he used to look us, when were going to school, while he was chanting vedas in the thinnai of the padashala without any expressions. This kind of life many of my B friends including me, could not practice are live, leaving all the enjoyment.

I am not a spiritual type, not yet, still trying to learn the basics, would be very happy if some of the Dalits, who are willing to live that kind of lifestyle and learn vedas with so much devotion. Since I am not a spritual type and as a youth was a not a good example, I never have come across a spiritual dalit who is longing to study veda ( i have only "kadaa mark" friends) and ready to sacrifice his prime years. But others like Smt HH is experiencing that, she knows Dalits who really are willing to undergo this kind of lifestyle. If it is a honest wish from the Dalit boy, the intention alone is commendable.

As I have no connection with Sankara Mutt, I can not just say, why not?. It will be just like கடை தேங்காய வழிப்பிள்ளையாருக்கு உடைத்த மாதிரி. Is there really no other way except sankara mutt for those dalits who wants to learn vedams?

Thanks

 

[Nara]

There are several Hindu organisations teaching vedhas and let them learn from it.

Dear Sir, you are still using the language of Marie Antoinette.

Let them do whatever they want sir, that is not the question.

The question is what the Brahmnical institutions want to do? Do they want to practice the anachronistic exclusivity or change and be more inclusive?

Whether the Veda Patashalas of any Matam, not any one Matam in particular, are run from after tax funds from strictly private resources will be known only if an independent audit of the finances of these Matams are conducted.

I am familiar with the operations of one Matam in particular. They have 80G trusts for Vedic studies and collect tax exempt contributions. Further, such trusts get to pay no taxes on their income. The Patashala run from these funds have zero NB's and zero girls, let alone Dalits.

This is done in a Matam with very limited patronage and next to nothing political influence. The Brahmnical Matams with much larger base and political reach surely have cadre of astute accountants, tax lawyers, and retired government officials to wade through the provisions in law and the corridors of bureaucracy to make sure the tax free funds keep flowing. So, I think it is disingenuous to suggest that these are strictly private trusts and private patashalas.

Once again, let me make it very clear, I am not talking about any one particular Matam.

I do not think any Brahmnical Matam is going to change and that is a disservice to those who want the Brahmin tradition to continue.

Cheers!