Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

[RVR]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn WhatsApp Email Share Link

sapthajihva ji,

because not all agree with the views of one religion or one community

Yes ji. It will be difficult to see one group among humans. At any given time, there will be multiple groups among humans. If these groups are formed by aptitude, interest, culture, tradition etc…no issues. But, if a private institution states that these groups among humans are determined by birth, that private institution statement affects all the humans (public). Pls. correct me if my interpretation is wrong.

Cheers

Personally I was born and brought at village Agraharam environment. Obviously we can conclude that this grouping is by birth. Both rich and poor people of my community lived together helping each other at the time of need. Poor use to help the rich physically and rich use to help the poor financially.

Now I am residing in a City flat where all communities are residing. We are all very much aligned and hence there is no problem in solving common problems of maintaining the building etc. May be all of us are having equal financial status with marginal variations. But nobody interferes with others and doesn't bother about others also.

Both has its own advantages as well as disadvantages.

But if I go back to the village, I definitely get a sense of belonging to that group which I cannot expect in the city.

Each one has to make their own conclusions based on personal experience.

All the best

 

[Curious]

RVR ji,

I’m glad to meet an Industrialist here. IMO, Entrepreneurship could be one way to tackle the reservation issue. It helps others too.

It is also my wish that various community based organizations work for welfare of their community and country. But, you know the politics always plays it part and people take advantage of caste system. IMO, only solution is to eliminate the caste system. Somebody has to start the reform instead of playing blaming game. It is ok to have groups in a state or country. Humans need to be in groups.

Joke: It is ok to have Mac/Apple fans and PC/Windows fans. But, if boys and girls are not marrying across Mac and Windows fans, it is not fun

Cheers

 

[happyhindu]

It is not just one village. It is only a sample where we want to do some good work for all communities but it is just not possible.

Last week I was in Kerala where I attended a christian marriage. Parents of both the boy an girl belong to two different churches. Since both the churches didn't agree to conduct the marriage, both boy and girl migrated to a third church and the marriage was performed there. Kerala is a literate state, the place is a small town, both boy and girl were well educated but still the churches there were not to accept them.

If these things are happening in states like Tamilnadu and Kerala, I am unable to imagine what will happen in UP, Bihar etc.

Literacy and migration to cities is the best solution to overcome all these problems.

I have not answered your other queries since we have discussed them earlier also and both our points doesn't converge.

All the best

Sir,

Since direct questions do not beget direct replies, i did expect that.

I have posted something for you in the purushasuktam-varna thread. Am not expecting a reply for it. But if you wish, you can surely reply.

And sir, i am not interested in christinaity or any religion anymore. i am bothered only about the major religion of india - hindusim.

Regards.

 

[happyhindu]

So it means that caste is not unlawful, but discrimination based on caste, right? Similarly religion is not unlawful, but discrimination based on religion.

There is some difference between these two. So while one can practice caste, which is legal, caste based discrimination is illegal.

The entire intent is to let people know that in the public sphere, discrimination on any grounds cannot be practised.

But when it comes to religious matters, it is no longer in the public sphere, because not all agree with the views of one religion or one community. Hence, they are governed by separate laws.

Therefore happyhindu's contention that religious matts practice discrimination is null and void.

Discrimination means denying rights based on caste. In addition, there is also a supreme court ruling that allows anyone to become a priest. However, some institutions are not following it. And mutts openly practice birth-based segregation and caste discrimination. And i do remember that some posters on this forum previously, had also justified untouchability in the public secular life.

 

[nachi naga]

re

Dear all posters,

This attachment is very very long,Please download,only if you wish to do so.Selectively selecting from posts of various posters enclosed in quotation,and my opinions to them.At the end a disclaimer.

nachi naga.

 

[sapthajihva]

because not all agree with the views of one religion or one community

Yes ji. It will be difficult to see one group among humans. At any given time, there will be multiple groups among humans. If these groups are formed by aptitude, interest, culture, tradition etc…no issues. But, if a private institution states that these groups among humans are determined by birth, that private institution statement affects all the humans (public). Pls. correct me if my interpretation is wrong.

Tradition is evolved from smrithis which have their validity in shruthis. So, the question that evolves after birth is one thing, and the reason for birth is another.

I am not talking in the view point of a materialistic society. It should be seen in the ultimate aim of a soul - moksha.

Regards,

 

[sapthajihva]

Discrimination means denying rights based on caste. In addition, there is also a supreme court ruling that allows anyone to become a priest. However, some institutions are not following it. And mutts openly practice birth-based segregation and caste discrimination. And i do remember that some posters on this forum previously, had also justified untouchability in the public secular life.

Discrimination, meant here is in the public sphere - the right to all public properties and means. The rights extend to the extent that they do not violate religious practices. The matts belong to the religious cadre and what they practice in their private domain does not come under discrimination. You are mixing mutually exclusive things here to suit your opinion.

 

[happyhindu]

Discrimination, meant here is in the public sphere - the right to all public properties and means. The rights extend to the extent that they do not violate religious practices. The matts belong to the religious cadre and what they practice in their private domain does not come under discrimination. You are mixing mutually exclusive things here to suit your opinion.

its expected of you.

the constitutiton is rather clear on caste discrimination and so is the supreme court verdict on priest appointments...

one can try as he might - private domain in matters of religion pertaining to social issues involving the masses is an unprovable strawman's argument...

anyways, as public awareness increases, lets see where things lead to...

nothing more to say to you on this topic.

bye.

 

[sapthajihva]

.....
one can try as he might - private domain in matters of religion pertaining to social issues involving the masses is an unprovable strawman's argument...

The matt simply follows its religious doctrines, and caters to those who accept it. If you dont accept, the matt does not force you to do anything. It is, and will remain, a religious affair, which does not interfere in the public sphere.

In trusts, there is the concept of religious trusts - private and public. This shows that the GOI has given rights to initiate and engage in religious activities. This further shows that such institutions are not discriminatory.

 

[RVR]

Ms Happy Hindu,

I just want you to read about a spiritual saint of last century.

Narayana Guru - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What he achieved in the neighbouring Kerala is remarkable.

I would like to compare the movement of Sri Narayana Guru in Kerala with EVR in Tamilnadu.

Ezhava community is suppose to be a most backward community in Kerala. Sri Narayana Guru hailed from that community but raised the whole community into the top. The community to day is very powerful politically through their wing SNDP, but at the same time doing lot of social work through education, medical services etc. All these things were achieved without any ill feelings with any other community.

EVR started Dravidan movement in a anti-brahmin platform. Today his successors are ruling the state for more than four decades. They have become rich and powerful. Brahmins gradually withdrew from the administration, politics etc. Infact brahmins were driven to selfishness of looking after their own interests instead of looking after the entire society interest. Net result - brahmins migrated to various other states and countries for greener pastures. Other communities - particularly daliths and most backward classes -didn't develop as compared to other communities. Daliths and MBCs constitute almost 50% of Tamilnadu population. If at all anybody to be blamed for this state of affairs, it is only the Dravidian movement. If you see history, Brahmins played leading role during freedom movement in Tamilnadu.

If all of us want to develop the entire state, the best thing is to strengthen education, medi care etc. Government as well as all the community organisations have to play a pro-active role instead fighting for admission in vedic schools.

My community members of our village have decided to adopt and develop the entire village involving all communities. We are not going to discriminate anybody based on caste or gender. Since our village has only Hindus and Non-believers, I am not talking of other religions.Thappalampuliyur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I wish every member associated with this forum concentrate on the development of their own native village covering all communities. This will also fulfil the dream of `Mahatma Gandhi' father of our nation.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

Ms Happy Hindu,

I just want you to read about a spiritual saint of last century.

Narayana Guru - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What he achieved in the neighbouring Kerala is remarkable.

I would like to compare the movement of Sri Narayana Guru in Kerala with EVR in Tamilnadu.

Ezhava community is suppose to be a most backward community in Kerala. Sri Narayana Guru hailed from that community but raised the whole community into the top. The community to day is very powerful politically through their wing SNDP, but at the same time doing lot of social work through education, medical services etc. All these things were achieved without any ill feelings with any other community.

EVR started Dravidan movement in a anti-brahmin platform. Today his successors are ruling the state for more than four decades. They have become rich and powerful. Brahmins gradually withdrew from the administration, politics etc. Infact brahmins were driven to selfishness of looking after their own interests instead of looking after the entire society interest. Net result - brahmins migrated to various other states and countries for greener pastures. Other communities - particularly daliths and most backward classes -didn't develop as compared to other communities. Daliths and MBCs constitute almost 50% of Tamilnadu population. If at all anybody to be blamed for this state of affairs, it is only the Dravidian movement. If you see history, Brahmins played leading role during freedom movement in Tamilnadu.

If all of us want to develop the entire state, the best thing is to strengthen education, medi care etc. Government as well as all the community organisations have to play a pro-active role instead fighting for admission in vedic schools.

My community members of our village have decided to adopt and develop the entire village involving all communities. We are not going to discriminate anybody based on caste or gender. Since our village has only Hindus and Non-believers, I am not talking of other religions.Thappalampuliyur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I wish every member associated with this forum concentrate on the development of their own native village covering all communities. This will also fulfil the dream of `Mahatma Gandhi' father of our nation.

All the best

Sir,

All this does not answer my questions of
a) scriptural saction and basis for social segregation.
b) propagation of birth-based caste discrimination by mutts
c) lack of inclusivism for all communities under the hindu umbrella
d) all round development for all in all socio-economic and religious matters regardless of caste, religion, gender or creed.

As far as the role of brahmins are concerned, sir you have repeated all of the below very many times, without addressing any of the above (and by carefully skirting direct questions)
a) how 'brahmins' are 'discriminated' against by the government
b) role played in freedom movement
c) balme game of politics
d) recommendations on how others must live and try to achieve moksha.

You have consistently overlooked that

a) other communities too played a big role in the freedom struggle.

b) other communites too suffer reservations - and they did not ask mutts to create jati segregations nor did they ask politicians to create reservations - they are just stuck in between for no fault of theirs.

c) You keep blaming politics without taking into consideration that rulers cannot do anything really very far on the social scenario scene without the acceptance of the public.

And its obvious that anti-brahmanism does exist in the public, not just among politicians alone. Am not sure i even want to try to ask brahmins - please can you try to understand why - anymore. I know its useless...

d) You keep advicing how others must approch spirituality or how others must seek moksha, without realising that others do not need the recommendations. Those 'others' very well know where they stand in hindusim and how they can get out the '5th varna'. And i do not see how it is possible to stop them really - irrespective of how you or i wud like to see things being preserved..

Sir, i have clearly explained my views in no simple terms (and rather explicitely at the cost of earning ire from near and dear ones). Have also posted where my approach comes from in the purushasuktam thread. But thankyou sir, i do not seem to have anything more to converse on this topic, since we keep repeating the same things in circles.

To conclude, all i can say is that today my thinking maybe sort of unacceptable to some, but considering the way the younger generation is going, i am convinced that in the near future, there will be an egalitarian society based on equality and meritocracy.

I rather flow with the tide rather than try to swim against the current in which the younger generation is flowing...

And sir, if you think i have been rude, my apologies. I know i have been crassly direct.

Thankyou.

 

[happyhindu]

The matt simply follows its religious doctrines, and caters to those who accept it. If you dont accept, the matt does not force you to do anything. It is, and will remain, a religious affair, which does not interfere in the public sphere.

In trusts, there is the concept of religious trusts - private and public. This shows that the GOI has given rights to initiate and engage in religious activities. This further shows that such institutions are not discriminatory.

The 2nd para is a oxymoron argument. Just becoz the govt allows public and private trusts does not make any institution non-discriminatory. Private truts that run madrasas are under scrutiny.

May sound somewhat futuristic now - but i do think that as a security measure, in future, the govt will have to review various religious schools of thot from where fanatism and activist thoughts emnate. It does not matter that those schools of thot are benign themselves. As long as those ideologies are used to support certain things, the govt will have to intervene.

Hindusim cannot be spared just bcoz its the majority religion. Atleast the malegaon blast has made ppl notice the bloody side of what rightwing activism can actually do.

Just as much things are considered 'holy' in hindusim, its the same with islam which takes 'words' literally seriously 'spiritually'. No difference really. Just depends on which side of the fence you view things from or fire from.

And holiness is all better kept aside when it comes to such matters.

We have had enuf of naxals, maoists, seperatist movements like ltte, tnla, khalistan, gorkhaland, simi, ulfa, etc, - and the caste system figures out somewhere or the other in each of those struggles - everwhere the lower end cadres that get recruited into such movements are "lowcaste" people - deemed 'low caste' and scripturally damned for their birth with special anger for so-called 'upper-caste' people.

Caste - a useless word - is just not worth it.

 

[Curious]

Sapthajihva ji,

I am not talking in the view point of a materialistic society. It should be seen in the ultimate aim of a soul - moksha.

I belong to the mass. I focus primarily on materialistic world. I never thought of attaining moksha before I stumbled upon here. I was suddenly stressed on caste, astrology and other stuff after several years. To me, it looks like they teach something else in school and when rubber meets the road they (masses, who have limited knowledge on Hinduism) expect opposite to what I learned in school. When I question the masses, they have no clue. They simply follow it. Anyway, I love being Hindu. I’m interested in learning more about it. The posts here are good. I learn just by reading the posts. Though, we have differences in opinion.

nachi naga ji,

When you mention it's private,you have by definition accepted,it's private matter.Why public is getting involved,as its not public.Is Advaitham accepted by all public?You have your own innate sense of intelligence,please correct or do not correct accordingly,as it's your private brain & mind,is my humble request.

I know I will be scolded for asking that clarification. I understand from your response it is strictly a private affair. Public need not care about it.

Is Advaitham accepted by all public?

I don’t know how many people in masses know about that. I guess very little.

chuckling gleefully

Not me. I don’t want to go there. I have no clue on these B and NBs classification. I like to remain that way. Perhaps, I will be happier that way. But, I like to learn Hinduism. I just don’t want to blindly shake my head to masses telling me what to do even though they don’t have clue about what they are telling me. The answer from the masses is it is been followed for several years. That answer is not enough for me.

RVR ji,

My community members of our village have decided to adopt and develop the entire village involving all communities.
Nice

Cheers!

 

[pvraman]

Sri Raghi,

For arguement sake...

Previous generation and my generation and probably the future gen are suffering with no fault of ours because of birth based segregation. Then, how I can emotionally care if some caste hindu community fight with dalits.

Cheers

 

[pvraman]

Sri Raghi,

For arguement sake...

Previous generation and my generation and probably the future gen are suffering with no fault of ours because of birth based segregation. Then, how I can emotionally care if some caste hindu community fight with dalits.

Cheers

 

[pvraman]

Back to the topic,

It is impossible to be a follower of hinduism without castes or different group names as we have already many gods and many paths practices.

Cheers

 

[renuka]

Back to the topic,

It is impossible to be a follower of hinduism without castes or different group names as we have already many gods and many paths practices.

Cheers

Dear PVRaman ji,

We dont have many Gods sir.
Ekam Sat Viprah Bahuda Vadanti.
God is only One. His manifestations are many.
Just like us for example.
Mr X is a Father, he is also a Son, he is also a Husband, he is also an employee etc.
God has multiple forms to suit the mental make up of the Bhaktha.

One can pray without the need of caste.
Caste is purely a bodily identification.
The pure Atma has no caste.
when i pray i do not even think of my caste.
I only think of God.

You are right when you say there are many modes of worship and many paths.
But all reach God eventually.
We can go to a nearby town by car, bus, train, flight etc.
The destination is only one.
The choice of the path is purely up to the seeker.
Some might like to preform rituals, some might like to gain jnanam, some might like to meditate.
Hindus are fortunate that there is no compulsion at any time in our life.
If one feels compelled its just purely his/her own feeling.
We are just given a key in our hands and multiple doors to choose for us to open.
The choice is in our hands to open which door but dont forget the key opens all doors.

 

[pvraman]

Dear Smt Renuka ji,

A person who is set to achieve divinity, never worries about caste and they dont have problem in their profession how low it may be.



Cheers

 

[RVR]

Ms. Happy Hindu

My replies are in blue

Sir,

All this does not answer my questions of
a) scriptural saction and basis for social segregation.
b) propagation of birth-based caste discrimination by mutts
c) lack of inclusivism for all communities under the hindu umbrella
d) all round development for all in all socio-economic and religious matters regardless of caste, religion, gender or creed.

As far as the role of brahmins are concerned, sir you have repeated all of the below very many times, without addressing any of the above (and by carefully skirting direct questions)
a) how 'brahmins' are 'discriminated' against by the government

The present policy of the government accepts caste. Caste tag is attached to a baby at the time of birth itself.

Birth in a particular caste is just an accident. None of us have any choice at the time birth that we can adopt a caste

But a person born in a particular caste is either discriminated by the society or by Government

Government discriminates brahmins by reservation policy. 69% of the opportunities are denied to brahmins in Tamilnadu.

b) role played in freedom movement

If you go through the history of freedom movement in Tamilnadu, Brahmins have played a pre-dominant role as compared to other communities. Brahmins mostly supported Congress and Mahatma Gandhi.
Veera Vanchi even took violent root and sacrificed his life.

Predecessors of the present dravidian movement, Justice party supported British. None of the brahmins were members of Justice party.

c) balme game of politics

It is not a blame game. Today if you see tamil brahmin community have migrated throughout the world and also to other parts of the country. They have withdrawn from the active role in Tamilnadu which has affected the state also to great extent. Population of brahmins has come down from 4% to 3% now and is likely to go down drastically in the near future. Upto 1967, Congress was not playing caste politics (at least openly). Now caste politics is played openly and dravidian parties are succeeding also through caste politics.

Personally I feel looking after my own community has become important for me than thinking of overall development. Still I am doing service other communities through some school as well as my village development. But it is the caste politics of dravidian parties which drives me to take care of my own community. In the normal circumstances I would not have thought about it at all.


d) recommendations on how others must live and try to achieve moksha.

I am not recommending anything on anybody. At best it can be treated as a suggestion. I never thought that I am an enlightened person to guide others.

On the contrary, you are repeatedly holding the vedic schools admission for moksha, salvation, liberation or whatever it is.

My contention is, it is a non-issue. The so called vedic schools are run by a particular brahmin sect for their own purpose. It is funded within the community traditionally. Each one of them is an independent entity. Kanchi mutt has influence in these schools since followers of Kanchi mutt are only running the school. But the community which is running the school will not allow other communities to enter the school. Kanchi mutt cannot use its influence beyond a point to force them to admit other communities. Even if the matter is taken to the court, the community has a strong case where it is running it for its own purpose with the community money. They may even agree to remove the Kanchi mutt tag to the school. No court can interfere if it is purely a community affair run with community money. Whatever I have written is nothing but practical reality.

I earnestly request you not to raise this issue again and again. I just feel that vedic patasala education is not going to help dalith community. Instead a formal education will lift them out their present miseries.

I am not at all supporting vedic school eduation for not only daliths but my own community members which is not going to help improving Human Development.

You have consistently overlooked that

a) other communities too played a big role in the freedom struggle.

b) other communites too suffer reservations - and they did not ask mutts to create jati segregations nor did they ask politicians to create reservations - they are just stuck in between for no fault of theirs.

c) You keep blaming politics without taking into consideration that rulers cannot do anything really very far on the social scenario scene without the acceptance of the public.

And its obvious that anti-brahmanism does exist in the public, not just among politicians alone. Am not sure i even want to try to ask brahmins - please can you try to understand why - anymore. I know its useless...

d) You keep advicing how others must approch spirituality or how others must seek moksha, without realising that others do not need the recommendations. Those 'others' very well know where they stand in hindusim and how they can get out the '5th varna'. And i do not see how it is possible to stop them really - irrespective of how you or i wud like to see things being preserved..

Sir, i have clearly explained my views in no simple terms (and rather explicitely at the cost of earning ire from near and dear ones). Have also posted where my approach comes from in the purushasuktam thread. But thankyou sir, i do not seem to have anything more to converse on this topic, since we keep repeating the same things in circles.

To conclude, all i can say is that today my thinking maybe sort of unacceptable to some, but considering the way the younger generation is going, i am convinced that in the near future, there will be an egalitarian society based on equality and meritocracy.

I rather flow with the tide rather than try to swim against the current in which the younger generation is flowing...

And sir, if you think i have been rude, my apologies. I know i have been crassly direct.

Things may change in the future. May be there will be a casteless society in the future. Definitely all of us have to welcome it.

But if we force anything, there will be resistance. Nobody needs to swim against the current.Best thing is empower all so that this discriminations disappear over a period of time by natural forces.

We are just arguing only. No need for apologies.


All the best

Thankyou.

 

[renuka]

Dear Smt Renuka ji,

A person who is set to achieve divinity, never worries about caste and they dont have problem in their profession how low it may be.



Cheers

Dear Sir,

Absolutely Correct.

You have answered your question in your previous post.

regards
renu

 

[happyhindu]

Sri Raghi,

For arguement sake...

Previous generation and my generation and probably the future gen are suffering with no fault of ours because of birth based segregation. Then, how I can emotionally care if some caste hindu community fight with dalits.

Cheers

For arguments sake...

Previous generation and your generation upholds birth based segregation. In the past, perhaps it was not wrong, because the society as a whole might have accepted it. But today, they do not accept it.

Your recent-past ancestors upheld / created a "spiritual" basis to keep people where they are. And though the downtrodden refuse to accept the position they are in today - you force them to stay where and take the liberty of designating them - with the excuse of dharma and scriptures.

When you uphold the basis of birth-based caste discrimination, you cannot claim to be suffering.

Whatever you see as your 'suffering' is your own ego mired in 'materialism'. Your ancestors practiced aparigraha. They lived on dakshinas. Their advice was sought because one cud be sure that they did not do anything for material benefits. They had no ego. They were humble. They were respected. But you do not live like that anymore.

You can live a non-materialistic life even today. But you will not. Instead you will live a secular life and still claim to be a brahmana by chanting a few mantras everday and by providing selective scriptural basis for your claims. You will continue to uphold birth-based discrimination even when others have moved on to other professions. You do not live for the society. You wish to 'control' the society.

The result is that the government has to create a whole cart of rubbish legislation to counter the effects of casteism. You have created the basis for wily and rowdy politicians to make hay with crappy caste-based political platforms.

You can very well create an all-inclusive hindu society. But you will not. Because
a) shastras cannot be amended, never mind that they were already interpolated.
b) perhaps you fear that something will go wrong (bhayam-bhakti).
c) it is disgraceful to your image.

When you have chosen to live with all the 3 above, and refuse to look out of it, you cannot claim to be suffering.

Sure, you need not care which caste fights with which caste - as long as you keep birth-based segregation and the scriptural basis for caste discrimination alive, and as long as you are not affected personally, why should you care.

 

[happyhindu]

Back to the topic,

It is impossible to be a follower of hinduism without castes or different group names as we have already many gods and many paths practices.

Cheers

castes need not be birth-based.

jati-dharma is a degraded model of the varna-dharma.

 

[RVR]

Dear Sir,

Absolutely Correct.

You have answered your question in your previous post.

regards
renu

Caste is attached only to body. Not to the Atman.

Body is a perishable commodity. Atman is eternal

One is born in a particular caste by sheer accident. Not willingly one is born in a particular caste

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

Originally Posted by happyhindu
Sir,

All this does not answer my questions of
a) scriptural saction and basis for social segregation.
b) propagation of birth-based caste discrimination by mutts
c) lack of inclusivism for all communities under the hindu umbrella
d) all round development for all in all socio-economic and religious matters regardless of caste, religion, gender or creed.

As far as the role of brahmins are concerned, sir you have repeated all of the below very many times, without addressing any of the above (and by carefully skirting direct questions)
a) how 'brahmins' are 'discriminated' against by the government

The present policy of the government accepts caste. Caste tag is attached to a baby at the time of birth itself.

Birth in a particular caste is just an accident. None of us have any choice at the time birth that we can adopt a caste

But a person born in a particular caste is either discriminated by the society or by Government

Government discriminates brahmins by reservation policy. 69% of the opportunities are denied to brahmins in Tamilnadu.

The government of india did not create the caste system.

Do you have 69% reservations in vedic schools for sons of priests and atleast the remaining 31% for others? When you have created and continue to keep 100% reservations in vedic schools, you cannot complain about reservations created by the government.

Do not blame the government or the "society". Governement has created policies to counter the effects of caste system - to let benefits reach the marginalized. And do not overlook that you as part of the "society" continue to uphold caste-discrimination in religious institutions.

b) role played in freedom movement

If you go through the history of freedom movement in Tamilnadu, Brahmins have played a pre-dominant role as compared to other communities. Brahmins mostly supported Congress and Mahatma Gandhi.
Veera Vanchi even took violent root and sacrificed his life.

Predecessors of the present dravidian movement, Justice party supported British. None of the brahmins were members of Justice party.

What has freedom struggle got to do with social equality in the religious domain?

I notice that some (casteist) ppl like to talk selectively when it comes to targetting 'castes' in politics. They will talk about the likes of EVR, but will choose to forget the likes of kattaboman.

Does talking abt freedom struggle solve caste discrimination practiced by mutts?

And yes, please do not think ALL brahmins supported freedom struggle. And ALL non-brahmins supported the british...

c) balme game of politics

It is not a blame game. Today if you see tamil brahmin community have migrated throughout the world and also to other parts of the country. They have withdrawn from the active role in Tamilnadu which has affected the state also to great extent. Population of brahmins has come down from 4% to 3% now and is likely to go down drastically in the near future. Upto 1967, Congress was not playing caste politics (at least openly). Now caste politics is played openly and dravidian parties are succeeding also through caste politics.

Personally I feel looking after my own community has become important for me than thinking of overall development. Still I am doing service other communities through some school as well as my village development. But it is the caste politics of dravidian parties which drives me to take care of my own community. In the normal circumstances I would not have thought about it at all.

You can keep blaming politics. But what right does anyone have, to talk about discrimination, if one were to practice birth-based discrimination himself or support insitutions that do so.

Abt the 2nd para, please continue to take care of your community. As long as someone reaches out to the other, its a very good thing...i do remember abt the school part...my best wishes in all of these endeavors to you sir...

Abt me and ppl within close circles, my role models are my spouse and my mother, more so my spouse...i consider him a true vaishnavite, who does not think of choices while reaching out to ppl in vasudeva's kutumbam...he is an unusually happy character who accepts all, anyone, everyone, anything and everything very easily...

d) recommendations on how others must live and try to achieve moksha.

I am not recommending anything on anybody. At best it can be treated as a suggestion. I never thought that I am an enlightened person to guide others.

On the contrary, you are repeatedly holding the vedic schools admission for moksha, salvation, liberation or whatever it is.

My contention is, it is a non-issue. The so called vedic schools are run by a particular brahmin sect for their own purpose. It is funded within the community traditionally. Each one of them is an independent entity. Kanchi mutt has influence in these schools since followers of Kanchi mutt are only running the school. But the community which is running the school will not allow other communities to enter the school. Kanchi mutt cannot use its influence beyond a point to force them to admit other communities. Even if the matter is taken to the court, the community has a strong case where it is running it for its own purpose with the community money. They may even agree to remove the Kanchi mutt tag to the school. No court can interfere if it is purely a community affair run with community money. Whatever I have written is nothing but practical reality.

I earnestly request you not to raise this issue again and again. I just feel that vedic patasala education is not going to help dalith community. Instead a formal education will lift them out their present miseries.

I am not at all supporting vedic school eduation for not only daliths but my own community members which is not going to help improving Human Development.

Abt raising the issue repeatedly, sir its not a fun topic for me. But if you write abt it, ofcourse i will reply.

And please do not keep claiming again and again that it is a personal affair when i have so clearly explained how it affect dalits.

And you can find well-off dalits as part of seperatist movements, you can fnd rich dalits continuing to hate upper-castes...so please do not think that uplifting them out of poverty solves things.

You have consistently overlooked that

a) other communities too played a big role in the freedom struggle.

b) other communites too suffer reservations - and they did not ask mutts to create jati segregations nor did they ask politicians to create reservations - they are just stuck in between for no fault of theirs.

c) You keep blaming politics without taking into consideration that rulers cannot do anything really very far on the social scenario scene without the acceptance of the public.

And its obvious that anti-brahmanism does exist in the public, not just among politicians alone. Am not sure i even want to try to ask brahmins - please can you try to understand why - anymore. I know its useless...

d) You keep advicing how others must approch spirituality or how others must seek moksha, without realising that others do not need the recommendations. Those 'others' very well know where they stand in hindusim and how they can get out the '5th varna'. And i do not see how it is possible to stop them really - irrespective of how you or i wud like to see things being preserved..

Sir, i have clearly explained my views in no simple terms (and rather explicitely at the cost of earning ire from near and dear ones). Have also posted where my approach comes from in the purushasuktam thread. But thankyou sir, i do not seem to have anything more to converse on this topic, since we keep repeating the same things in circles.

To conclude, all i can say is that today my thinking maybe sort of unacceptable to some, but considering the way the younger generation is going, i am convinced that in the near future, there will be an egalitarian society based on equality and meritocracy.

I rather flow with the tide rather than try to swim against the current in which the younger generation is flowing...

And sir, if you think i have been rude, my apologies. I know i have been crassly direct.

Things may change in the future. May be there will be a casteless society in the future. Definitely all of us have to welcome it.

But if we force anything, there will be resistance. Nobody needs to swim against the current.Best thing is empower all so that this discriminations disappear over a period of time by natural forces.

We are just arguing only. No need for apologies.

Yes its not right to force anything. If there was a welcome attitude, if there was an attitude of inclusiveness (atleast in the colonial india, if not the pre-colonial period), there wud have been nothing called 'anti-brahmanism' today.

So if there was and if there is something called anti-brahmanism amongst the masses, you cannot claim its a political ploy alone. If institutions continue to keep birth-segregation alive in the name of 'dharma' even today, then do not complain about discrimination by reservations, government, etc. As one sows, he reaps. There really is not need for brahmins to claim to be 'victims'.

Sir, we have conversed on this topic enough...Hope we can stop.

Regards.

 

[renuka]

Caste is attached only to body. Not to the Atman.

Body is a perishable commodity. Atman is eternal

One is born in a particular caste by sheer accident. Not willingly one is born in a particular caste

All the best

We are not born by accident i feel.Any birth is already preordained whether its in any species human or non human. From single celled organism to the multicelled complexed human being.

I have read before that some high souled individuals with only very little residual karma balance voluntarily take up births with severe deformities/sufferings or also non human births to burn up all Sanchita Karma left.

Even those who have commited suicide usually are reborned to face the similar circumstances which lead to suicide but given another chance to solve the problem instead of choosing suicide as an option.

We dont have choice to choose our next birth directly but indirectly are actions choose our next birth.

Disclaimer: this input is purely dealing with birth of a species and not relating to caste.