Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

[RVR]

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We are not born by accident i feel.Any birth is already preordained whether its in any species human or non human. From single celled organism to the multicelled complexed human being.

I have read before that some high souled individuals with only very little residual karma balance voluntarily take up births with severe deformities/sufferings or also non human births to burn up all Sanchita Karma left.

Even those who have commited suicide usually are reborned to face the similar circumstances which lead to suicide but given another chance to solve the problem instead of choosing suicide as an option.

We dont have choice to choose our next birth directly but indirectly are actions choose our next birth.

Disclaimer: this input is purely dealing with birth of a species and not relating to caste.

I just said birth in a particular caste is just an accident. I am not saying birth itself is an accident.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

I just said birth in a particular caste is just an accident. I am not saying birth itself is an accident.

All the best

The theory of karma does not say so.

No birth is an accident.

All souls come into this world with their inherent gunas and varnas (that make up the conditioned mind).

They come into this world, because they are 'destained' to be born.

Birth and death are not individual choices for non-yogis.

All souls have the right to live their inherent varna, to explore their abilities, proclivities...

No soul needs to be obligated or forced to follow the profession of their father or grandfather.

Regards.

 

[RVR]

The theory of karma does not say so.

No birth is an accident.

All souls come into this world with their inherent gunas and varnas (that make up the conditioned mind).

They come into this world, because they are 'destained' to be born.

Birth and death are not individual choices for non-yogis.

All souls have the right to live their inherent varna, to explore their abilities, proclivities...

No soul needs to be obligated or forced to follow the profession of their father or grandfather.

Regards.

I am not talking about `varna'. I am just talking only about `caste' tag. One is born to particular parents and the `caste tag' of the father is attached to the baby. Legally even mother's caste is not attached to the baby in India but only a father's caste. It is nothing but a man made accident.

All the best

 

[renuka]

I just said birth in a particular caste is just an accident. I am not saying birth itself is an accident.

All the best

Dear sir,

Please dont get me wrong.I did not misunderstand you. I knew what you were trying to say but our Karma shapes our future births.
hence being born into a caste wheter man made or not is also preordained by Karma.
i just did not mention this point in my post because i did not want to touch upon caste.

But I am not saying here that a person born into a so called higher man made caste had a better Karma than a person born into a so called lower man made caste.
That only God knows.

 

[happyhindu]

I am not talking about `varna'. I am just talking only about `caste' tag. One is born to particular parents and the `caste tag' of the father is attached to the baby. Legally even mother's caste is not attached to the baby in India but only a father's caste. It is nothing but a man made accident.

All the best

And the man made accident came to happen only since recent times sir...

regards.

 

[RVR]

And the man made accident came to happen only since recent times sir...

regards.

During Alwar/Nayanmar period ( 7th to 9th century AD) the caste was there but there was no discrimination.

Madhurakavi Alwar who happens to be a brahmin was a disciple of Nammazhwar not belonging to brahmin community.

Thirugnanasambandar suppose to be a brahmin gave life to a Chettiar girl at Mylapore but refused to marry her stating that she is like her daughter and not because of caste.

Sundara Moorthi Nayanar suppose to be a brahmin married Paravai Nachiar and Sangili Nachiar both not belonging to brahmin community. Lord Shiva blessed both the marriages.

But during subsequentl periods, I am unable to find out such incidents.

When `Thamizh Thatha' U.Ve.Swaminatha Iyer went to Mahavidvan Meenakshi Sundaram Pillai to learn Tamil, there was objection from the Brahmin community. This happened only in the last century.

I am able to conclude that the caste discrimination has started only from 10th century onwards only.

I wish somebody does a research and publish the root cause analysis.

All the best

 

[RVR]

Dear sir,

Please dont get me wrong.I did not misunderstand you. I knew what you were trying to say but our Karma shapes our future births.
hence being born into a caste wheter man made or not is also preordained by Karma.
i just did not mention this point in my post because i did not want to touch upon caste.

But I am not saying here that a person born into a so called higher man made caste had a better Karma than a person born into a so called lower man made caste.
That only God knows.

What you say is correct. May be the so called higher and lower caste differenciation is a man made accident.

All the best

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism.

Sir,
I have read comments of several members.Yes it is weakening the cause of Hindu religion.Please read the speech of VIVEKANANDA IN CHENNAI
some110years before. Brahmins of those days objected that Vivekananda being a Kshatriya is prohibited from studying VEDAS.He delivered a lecture as to who is a "Brahmin".According to his speech the present day Brahmins
( barring a few persons or families) do not become eligible to be called as Brahmins.
Varnashram started long time back would have been relevant in those days.It got degenerated into caste system.Even in modern managements we have got separate branches where specilly trained persons are employed like HRD,Purchasewing, SALES DEPT, R&D. QUALITY CONTROL
WE are not trying to find a solution as to how to rectify the defects and deficiencies and bring all caste persons as one entity.RAMANUJA WHO STARTED THE VISISTASDWAIDAM PHILOSOPHY BROUGHT DIFFERENT CASTE PEOPLE INTO VAISHNAVAISM,employed them in Vaishnava temples and wrote vedas in TAMIL for the benefit of all people who were not understanding Sanskrit.WE require a SOCIAL REFORMER
to remove the caste differences in HINDU SOCIETY.
SOME YEARS BACK MR.VASANT SATHE WHO WAS A CABINET MINISTER IN INDIRA GHANDHI GOVT SUGGESTED THAT ALL HINDUS CAN BE ASKED TO BECOME BRAHMINS SO AS TO REMOVE CASTE DISPARITY.
HOW many of US are willing to take other caste girls as daughter-in law or accept other community BOYS as Son-in laws?
IN my humble opinion a start has to be made.NO amount of academic discussions will solve the problem.
B.Krishnamurthy
PS.I wouls suggest those who can follow HINDI listen to the discourses of ACHARYA KRIPALU MAHARAJ who is an authority on HINDU RELIGION and the only person to be given the title of" JAGATGURU" for hisprofound knowledge.

 

[RVR]

Both Ramakrishna Paramahamsa (RP) and Swami Vivekananda (SV) faced problems in Bengal itself when RP accepted SV as his main sishya.

But SV had outstanding calibre to break the tradition.

Swami Dayananda Saraswathi (brahmin by birth) accepted Swami Chinmayananda (Nair by birth) as his Guru.

I wish all communities raise their standard so that caste based discrimination disappears slowly.

All the best

 

[Raghy]

Both Ramakrishna Paramahamsa (RP) and Swami Vivekananda (SV) faced problems in Bengal itself when RP accepted SV as his main sishya.

But SV had outstanding calibre to break the tradition.

Swami Dayananda Saraswathi (brahmin by birth) accepted Swami Chinmayananda (Nair by birth) as his Guru.

I wish all communities raise their standard so that caste based discrimination disappears slowly.

All the best

Sri.RVR Sir,

On the one hand you debate that NBs should not seek admission in vedapadasala in Kanchi mutt, and one of the reason for you is that peedathipathy usually is one of the padasala educated; on the other hand you show examples of caste brahmins who chose non-brahmins as their gurus. RVR Sir, you have to make up your mind, please. Thank you.

Cheers!

 

[pvraman]

Dear Smt HH Ji,

FAS,

For arguments sake...

Previous generation and your generation upholds birth based segregation. In the past, perhaps it was not wrong, because the society as a whole might have accepted it. But today, they do not accept it.

Like me, there are so many who does not uphold that. If they refuse to accept, it should be appreciated. In this modern world one should care discriminatory scriptures.

Your recent-past ancestors upheld / created a "spiritual" basis to keep people where they are. And though the downtrodden refuse to accept the position they are in today - you force them to stay where and take the liberty of designating them - with the excuse of dharma and scriptures.

Dharma and scriptures does not do any good to me. It has put me in a bad position than a dalit. Probably, it will continue for many future centuries. So Why i should buy your logic. When we are not the beneficiary, why should I take that it is created by my ancestors for my benefit. I don't see the benefit.

When you uphold the basis of birth-based caste discrimination, you cannot claim to be suffering.

I do not hold birth based discrimination. if you still think so, then the discrimination will never disappear. I means many like me, like Dalit means few dalits who would like to study veda.

Whatever you see as your 'suffering' is your own ego mired in 'materialism'.

Same there. To attain spiritualism, they no need to care the scriptures. Self realization is nobody's monopoly.

Your ancestors practiced aparigraha. They lived on dakshinas. Their advice was sought because one cud be sure that they did not do anything for material benefits. They had no ego. They were humble. They were respected. But you do not live like that anymore.

Yes, Because this "Kudumi cutting" society will make me and my family beg and eventually die.

You can live a non-materialistic life even today. But you will not. Instead you will live a secular life and still claim to be a brahmana by chanting a few mantras everyday and by providing selective scriptural basis for your claims. You will continue to uphold birth-based discrimination even when others have moved on to other professions.

For the reasons stated above, i can not live like ancient brahmana. I don't have any need to claim anything to anybody, I am a brahmin by caste only not Brahmana. Nobody lives for the society now. Its a dream.

You do not live for the society. You wish to 'control' the society.

Its a wild imagination without any idea of whats happening since muslim invasion, about the control thing. Brahmins are at the mercy of society not as you think. Brahmins are targeted only to catch the big fish, i mean votes from the remaining 96%. Good strategy.

The result is that the government has to create a whole cart of rubbish legislation to counter the effects of caste-ism. You have created the basis for wily and rowdy politicians to make hay with crappy caste-based political platforms.

They create the whole cart of rubbish legislation to promote the effect of castism not the other way. .

Its like a dog being hit by a stone. Even if it being hit at any part, it will only lift his leg. Like for all the nonsense, learned people hold only Brahmin's scriptures while majority others including Muslims & Christians happily live using the selfish govt policies.

You can very well create an all-inclusive Hindu society. But you will not. Because
a) shastras cannot be amended, never mind that they were already interpolated.
b) perhaps you fear that something will go wrong (bhayam-bhakti).
c) it is disgraceful to your image.

I do not understand what do you mean by all inclusive society. Already we are living in all inclusive society. Around my house, there are many tourist buses parked (by accepting money per bus by the keeper of law) and they made the whole area filthy by cooking on the road. The next day, about 15 people from municipality (absolutely lower caste) came, cleaned the street and knocked our door's and demanded (not asked) that we pay money.

a) Are 97% NB's follow the shastras?
b) There is nothing to loose, why fear?
c) Image !?.


Hinduism has many paths and hence many groups are bound to happen. The only thing we have to make is to treat all paths equal to one another. By Praying Muniyandi & Vishnu should be reaching the same destination. Is that not happening?.

When you have chosen to live with all the 3 above, and refuse to look out of it, you cannot claim to be suffering.

I do not claim to be suffering even though right from my Grand fathers period were financially at a very lower level. i have overcome it, like so many others. So, I don't relate emotionally with the plight of any down trodden people if any.

Sure, you need not care which caste fights with which caste - as long as you keep birth-based segregation and the scriptural basis for caste discrimination alive, and as long as you are not affected personally, why should you care.

Nope, Its a wrong accusation. Its as if brahmin's derive pleasure in watching a drama when poor souls fight. Its a very bad pov. The fact is that no body cares scriptures, get hold of anybody who is treating dalit as untouchable and ask them you do so, they will definitely not say that its because of brahmin's scriptures.

What kind of benefits we are getting?

Spiritualism can be practiced without anybody's recognition. It is independent. But Materialism is something which is very much dependent. Like me when higher education opportunity was denied based on my caste, and made to suffer in our own country, why I should care for others. Our education system teaches exactly this to our kids, materialism. Or is it from Brahmin Scriptures?

Considering the present state of brahmin community, I really could not believe brahmins amassed wealth or attained moksha just like that. I have not heard of any brahmin rulers, who worked overtime for the benefit of brahmins alone. Like me, many are not benefited on both front, So, for me, it does not make any sense.

Cheers

 

[Raghy]

Sri Raghi,

For arguement sake...

Previous generation and my generation and probably the future gen are suffering with no fault of ours because of birth based segregation. Then, how I can emotionally care if some caste hindu community fight with dalits.

Cheers

Sri.PVR,

You don't have to care. You are right. Unfortunately, when some castebrahmins uphold the manu sasthra, it becomes the tug of war bewteen some of the caste brahmins and some of the dalits. In this tug of war, all the vulnerables suffer. You don't want to suffer. That's why you have to care about the ill effects of the said tug of war.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

Sri.RVR Sir,

On the one hand you debate that NBs should not seek admission in vedapadasala in Kanchi mutt, and one of the reason for you is that peedathipathy usually is one of the padasala educated; on the other hand you show examples of caste brahmins who chose non-brahmins as their gurus. RVR Sir, you have to make up your mind, please. Thank you.

Cheers!

Kanchi Mutt was not running Vedha Patasalas directly during Paramacharyal period. Only his followers - Smartha Brahmins were running it. It was funded and operated by local smartha brahmin community for producing Purohits.

Still most of the patasalas are running like that only. It is purely a smartha community affair. Kanchi mutt does not interfere in this except for limited purpose of drawing vedic scholars and offcourse selection of successors of the mutt. Just because some of these patasalas use Kanchi mutt name, they cannot become part and parcel of the mutt.

I have explained this in my writings. How can some other community encroach on this. Only local patasala administrators of smartha community has to decide about admitting people of other communities into it and including Kanchi mutt, nobody can force it.

Like every caste having their own set of rules, smartha brahmin community will also have its own rules .

I wish everybody follows live and let live principle and doesn't interfere in other community affair.

All the best

 

[pvraman]

Dear Smt Renuka Ji,

You are right when you say there are many modes of worship and many paths.
But all reach God eventually.
We can go to a nearby town by car, bus, train, flight etc.
The destination is only one.
The choice of the path is purely up to the seeker.
Some might like to preform rituals, some might like to gain jnanam, some might like to meditate.
Hindus are fortunate that there is no compulsion at any time in our life.
If one feels compelled its just purely his/her own feeling.
We are just given a key in our hands and multiple doors to choose for us to open.
The choice is in our hands to open which door but dont forget the key opens all doors.

I fully agree.

Castes can be discussed in two premise. Materialism and spiritualism.

Materialism. Now, its not in the individual's hand. It is there right from birth, play school, society. Getting rid of it, can only be an individual affair, i declare i belong to no caste but it does not have any legal standing with govt or society. Govt will never remove it. We have a proof that they are growing, not reducing day after day.

Spiritualism : Each caste has a particular life style towards reaching god. If we think each path fulfills that goal, then what is the need to migrate from one another. Will it not be convenient to pursue one's path based on the experience one gets from his birth and environment. On the contrary, I see migration only will create lot of confusions.

The problem starts when, one feels his path is inferior to other. So, IMHO, castes if made equal to each other, If one does not feel that way, the castes will be good for the society in general and good for Hinduism (Glowing proof to the world).

Regards

 

[RVR]

Dear Smt Renuka Ji,
I fully agree.

Castes can be discussed in two premise. Materialism and spiritualism.

Materialism. Now, its not in the individual's hand. It is there right from birth, play school, society. Getting rid of it, can only be an individual affair, i declare i belong to no caste but it does not have any legal standing with govt or society. Govt will never remove it. We have a proof that they are growing, not reducing day after day.

Spiritualism : Each caste has a particular life style towards reaching god. If we think each path fulfills that goal, then what is the need to migrate from one another. Will it not be convenient to pursue one's path based on the experience one gets from his birth and environment. On the contrary, I see migration only will create lot of confusions.

The problem starts when, one feels his path is inferior to other. So, IMHO, castes if made equal to each other, If one does not feel that way, the castes will be good for the society in general and good for Hinduism (Glowing proof to the world).

Regards

Making castes equal to each other is in the mind only. Personally I have seen lot of people belonging to various communities feeling proud of their community. If every community feels like that then there is no problem.

Unfortunately attacking some other community is creating problems.

Let us all follow live and let live principle. There will not be any problem.

In the natural process, if caste system is getting erased in the future, we welcome it. Only if we force something, it will have opposite reaction.

All the best

 

[pvraman]

Dear Smt HH Ji,

castes need not be birth-based.

jati-dharma is a degraded model of the varna-dharma.

But, it is birth based unlike varna and all. Atleast in Varna system we can say its based on one's guna or profession whatever it is, but child bears father's caste at birth.

That's why in school they ask us to write the Caste. Dharma has nothing to do here.

Regards

 

[Curious]

pvraman ji,


Govt will never remove it. We have a proof that they are growing, not reducing day after day.

If deep down the heart, the answer to this thread is YES, change has to start somewhere. The question should be: What can be done to get rid of caste from B’s, NB’s and Government?
Also, IMHO this issue will resolve itself over the period of time. Modern thoughts will erase it. May be my generation need to bear some pain.

The problem starts when, one feels his path is inferior to other. So, IMHO, castes if made equal to each other,

Well sir, one can write so many books on how a human should behave. But, humans are limited by the Psychology(This is the very reason why some of us strongly stick to caste. The energy based on caste built in the head over period of time. The younger generation has less of this energy in their head. My children don't even have traces of it.). The human head will develop prejudice over the profession based on which caste is created.

It looks like it is obvious that root cause of the issue is caste. Why make things difficult by keeping the root? The solution to the problem will be lot simpler by eliminating root. Blaming each other will strengthen tug of war. It is not the solution to the problem.

In reality, if castes are equal, marriages need to happen between the caste. It is easy to say caste can be thought as equal but hard to practice. It is really easy for groups of people in good position (Especially by birth).

I do not understand what do you mean by all inclusive society. Already we are living in all inclusive society. Around my house, there are many tourist buses parked (by accepting money per bus by the keeper of law) and they made the whole area filthy by cooking on the road. The next day, about 15 people from municipality (absolutely lower caste) came, cleaned the street and knocked our door's and demanded (not asked) that we pay money.

Speaking of filthy, it reminds me the kitchen in the apartments where I shared with my friends. It is just lack of ownership or laziness. I'm one of those guys who wants everything clean and organized. But, I was outnumbered in almost all cases. I would say if we are already inclusive and if we know something better, we can mentor others who lack that better part. What else can we do to change the situation? Blaming is not an answer.

Cheers!

 

[pvraman]

Dear Sri Raghy,

Sri.PVR,

You don't have to care. You are right. Unfortunately, when some castebrahmins uphold the manu sasthra,......That's why you have to care about the ill effects of the said tug of war.

Cheers!

IMHO, it is happening only in few villages, not cities. Invariably it is not only caste brahmins but other community too involved. I am also seeing more aggressive stance taken by other community than caste brahmins.

Its not in the hands of Brahmins to solve the problem. Only by raising the literacy and financial status of Untouchables with the govt's help is the only solution. When they move up the society, even caste Brahmin will have no hesitation to reach them.

As posted in some other thread, my father narrated a story, once he went to his (B) friends house to get back his notebook, my father was asked to stand outside the boy's house. The only difference was the financial status. I also know personally and through my father, about some of the very dominating caste brahmins (who used to lend money for interest at that time, and snatch houses and lands not only from Bs but also from other communities), but, after hearing the way they died, I thought the God is a greatest leveler.

Bad elements are there in every community, but we shall take only good aspects.

Cheers

 

[pvraman]

Curious Ji,

Well sir, one can write so many books on how a human should behave. But, humans are limited by the Psychology

IMHO, the Psychology is started right from the admission to the modern school. The discrimination is started from the ranking and grading, what we are seeing in the school esp the way they treat the 9th to 12 th students. Why this feverish treatment?

The younger generation has less of this energy in their head. My children don't even have traces of it.). The human head will develop prejudice over the profession based on which caste is created.

Sir, Profession is not linked with caste. Caste is nothing to do with profession except for archagars, poosari. Kids will not have any caste differences. But they will know when they reach 9th to 12th class.

It looks like it is obvious that root cause of the issue is caste. Why make things difficult by keeping the root? The solution to the problem will be lot simpler by eliminating root. Blaming each other will strengthen tug of war. It is not the solution to the problem.

Caste will remain as long as we follow Hinduism. We have to think, in today's worlds, what makes one's life miserable.

1. Castes
2. Profession
3. Financial status

IMHO, the difference created by Profession and financial status are the most dangerous of all. A starving person turns to violence. The raise in commodity price is because of the different salary structure in various profession.

In reality, if castes are equal, marriages need to happen between the caste. It is easy to say caste can be thought as equal but hard to practice. It is really easy for groups of people in good position (Especially by birth).

IMHO, the effort towards equality in castes is relatively easier thing to do than any other method. Which involves only education and profession. Leave alone intercaste marriage, same caste marriages will not be done if sambandhi's are in different financial status.

In our system, even in intercaste marriages, the child will be taking father's caste mostly.

regards

 

[renuka]

Dear Smt Renuka Ji,
I fully agree.

Castes can be discussed in two premise. Materialism and spiritualism.

Materialism. Now, its not in the individual's hand. It is there right from birth, play school, society. Getting rid of it, can only be an individual affair, i declare i belong to no caste but it does not have any legal standing with govt or society. Govt will never remove it. We have a proof that they are growing, not reducing day after day.

Spiritualism : Each caste has a particular life style towards reaching god. If we think each path fulfills that goal, then what is the need to migrate from one another. Will it not be convenient to pursue one's path based on the experience one gets from his birth and environment. On the contrary, I see migration only will create lot of confusions.

The problem starts when, one feels his path is inferior to other. So, IMHO, castes if made equal to each other, If one does not feel that way, the castes will be good for the society in general and good for Hinduism (Glowing proof to the world).

Regards

dear PVRaman Ji,
I feel that each individual has a particular style of reaching God and not necessarily a particular caste will have its own style.
that will be too broad a clasification.
In a family of 5 children all might not have the same method of God realization.
Lord Krishna had enumerated 3 modes of prayer.
Sattva, Rajas and Tamas mode.(and He specified that all reach Him)

These gunas are present in each and everyone of us in varying degress and the dominant guna will decide our mode of prayer.
This mode of prayer is not fixed and may very from time, place and person.

There is no harm in maintaning ones individualised lifestyle or castestyle method of prayer but at no time one should feel ones method is superior or inferior.
If the feeling of superiority or inferiorty is there, the purpose of prayer itself might not be met.
Its not easy to be beyond the pairs of opposites but the best would be to start off and work our way up the spiritual ladder.
Only we can climb and uplift ourselves.

 

[pvraman]

Dear Smt Renuka Ji,

There is no harm in maintaning ones individualised lifestyle or castestyle method of prayer but at no time one should feel ones method is superior or inferior.
If the feeling of superiority or inferiorty is there, the purpose of prayer itself might not be met.

This is what I wanted to convey. This is the essence and beauty of Vedic Dharma. A spiritual person does not have superiority or inferiority feelings. Only pursuit of materialistic goal only creates this feelings. Our Basic education system encourages this.

Regards

 

[pvraman]

Dear Smt Renuka Ji,

I feel that each individual has a particular style of reaching God and not necessarily a particular caste will have its own style.
that will be too broad a clasification.
In a family of 5 children all might not have the same method of God realization.
Lord Krishna had enumerated 3 modes of prayer.
Sattva, Rajas and Tamas mode.(and He specified that all reach Him)

Can you please enlighten me, if the 3 modes take precedence over one another under what circumstances?

How
1) Genetics,
2) Environment
3) Society
4) Profession

Influences it. If the above has any effect on these 3 modes?

Thanks

 

[RVR]

Our own farm labour in our village use to worship their own God `Muniyandi' and use to offer `toddy' as Neivaidyam. It is an accepted practice in their community and I use to appreciate it.

Ultimately God will not consume the liquor and our farm labour use to enjoy.

Unity in diversity is the essence of Sanathana Dharma

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

Like me, there are so many who does not uphold that. If they refuse to accept, it should be appreciated. In this modern world one should care discriminatory scriptures.

No sensible person in this world is upholding discriminatory scriptures. One does not need to specially appreciate brahmins or anyone if they are not upholding such scriptures.

Dharma and scriptures does not do any good to me. It has put me in a bad position than a dalit. Probably, it will continue for many future centuries. So Why i should buy your logic. When we are not the beneficiary, why should I take that it is created by my ancestors for my benefit. I don't see the benefit.

I do not hold birth based discrimination. if you still think so, then the discrimination will never disappear. I means many like me, like Dalit means few dalits who would like to study veda.

Dharma and scriptures do not help you because you are doing a secular job, living a secular life.

You and me as individuals not upholding birth discrimination is not enough. Nor does anyone care about it.

Discrimination must stop at the level of mutts and religious institutions that promote segregation and discrimination.

Same there. To attain spiritualism, they no need to care the scriptures. Self realization is nobody's monopoly.

Perfectly said. Then why is there a monopoly in admission to vedic schools?

Yes, Because this "Kudumi cutting" society will make me and my family beg and eventually die.

For the reasons stated above, i can not live like ancient brahmana. I don't have any need to claim anything to anybody, I am a brahmin by caste only not Brahmana. Nobody lives for the society now. Its a dream.

You overlook that the ancient brahmanas were not wealthy; and anyone can live life like an ancient brahmana even today. But purohits working in small temples along the street corners, also have dreams of a 'good life' now. So, its a case of a society becoming materialistic on the whole. And yes, truly, nobody lives for the society anymore.

Its a wild imagination without any idea of whats happening since muslim invasion, about the control thing. Brahmins are at the mercy of society not as you think. Brahmins are targeted only to catch the big fish, i mean votes from the remaining 96%. Good strategy.

Sorry PVR, my imaginations are not as wild as the things i come across. Am a plain jane, in every matter. If targetting brahmins was just a political ploy to get votes, then people wud not have supported such movements in the past.

Today, its bcoz of the open economy and shift in focus towards betterment of living standards that has buried such ideologies.

However, to the dalits, its a case of double whammy - ill treatment from all hindus plus lack of capital to build a live on.

No matter how much money they get, some 'dalit' sections do not use it to improve their own lives. Instead they fund movements. Its the ideology that needs to be addressed. Scriptural basis for their birth condemnation must go and they must be allowed to be equals in hinduism.

They create the whole cart of rubbish legislation to promote the effect of castism not the other way. .

Its like a dog being hit by a stone. Even if it being hit at any part, it will only lift his leg. Like for all the nonsense, learned people hold only Brahmin's scriptures while majority others including Muslims & Christians happily live using the selfish govt policies.

There would have been no anti-brahmanism from the late-colonial period onwards, if mutts / religious institutions had showed a welcoming attitude into vedism / vedic schools to interested ppl of other castes. What we see today, are the effects of counter-measures.

As long as religious institutions keep birth-based segregations alive, the government is not going to change its legislation on reservations. The question, to the dalits, is about religious equality. ...And they will not allow the government to change its policies until things change at the grass-roots level.

I do not understand what do you mean by all inclusive society. Already we are living in all inclusive society. Around my house, there are many tourist buses parked (by accepting money per bus by the keeper of law) and they made the whole area filthy by cooking on the road. The next day, about 15 people from municipality (absolutely lower caste) came, cleaned the street and knocked our door's and demanded (not asked) that we pay money.

a) Are 97% NB's follow the shastras?
b) There is nothing to loose, why fear?
c) Image !?.

An all-inclusive society means one in which there is no birth-based segregation. One in which people are free to chose their vocation - be it the religious domain or the secular domain.

Its a society that can come only if religious intitutions modify their practices, create a change in the society, influence the masses and thereby finally influence goverment policies.

Hinduism has many paths and hence many groups are bound to happen. The only thing we have to make is to treat all paths equal to one another. By Praying Muniyandi & Vishnu should be reaching the same destination. Is that not happening?.

Question is not abt religious paths. Question is about religious-equality in matters of access to vedic education.

Nope, Its a wrong accusation. Its as if brahmin's derive pleasure in watching a drama when poor souls fight. Its a very bad pov. The fact is that no body cares scriptures, get hold of anybody who is treating dalit as untouchable and ask them you do so, they will definitely not say that its because of brahmin's scriptures.

Scriptures set the basis for discrimination in the past. The past "mentality" continues, though the scriptures are no longer followed. If the mentality needs to change, the scriptural basis needs to be addressed. It means nothing to the rest of the hindus, but it means something to 'dalits'. Let mutts / religious institutions take the lead in showing that hinduism treats everyone as an equal.

What kind of benefits we are getting?

You can always work as a priest. Nobody has taken away that right from you. But what abt ppl who cannot make any living in any manner? I can give you examples of NB families who had to keep selling off land to finance education or weddings or lived in poverty due to low income from agriculture produce. What is their fault? Did they ask mutts to create jati segregation or did they ask politicians to create reservations.

Why are reservations not based on a family's annual income? Why should it be based on caste? Is it not because some 'brahmins' still want to keep the caste system as it is? Not all. But those of mutts certainly do. And if they keep propagating birth-segregation, how will the dalits agree to remove reservations?

Spiritualism can be practiced without anybody's recognition. It is independent. But Materialism is something which is very much dependent. Like me when higher education opportunity was denied based on my caste, and made to suffer in our own country, why I should care for others. Our education system teaches exactly this to our kids, materialism. Or is it from Brahmin Scriptures?

If our education system "teaches" materialsm to kids, then why are brahmins seeking such an education. You cannot follow it, and keep blaming it. Its like typing on a computer, and continuously blaming "modernization" or modern technology. Please do not tell me that you are willing to give up all materialsm and live like those old brahmanas. If you cannot, then why complain.

Considering the present state of brahmin community, I really could not believe brahmins amassed wealth or attained moksha just like that. I have not heard of any brahmin rulers, who worked overtime for the benefit of brahmins alone. Like me, many are not benefited on both front, So, for me, it does not make any sense.

i have not heard of rulers of other communities who worked overtime to benefit their communities alone either...

regards.

 

[pvraman]

Smt HH Ji,

because the society as a whole might have accepted it. But today, they do not accept it.

Like me, there are so many who does not uphold that. If they refuse to accept, it should be appreciated. In this modern world why one should care discriminatory scriptures.

Little type error there, and by "if they refuse to accept it...." I mean the bold words.

Regards